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#134684 - 14/01/2003 01:15 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: visuvius]
Biscuitsjam
enthusiast

Registered: 22/01/2002
Posts: 355
Sometimes I think that the whole gas-guzzling thing is just a red-herring. Why are people really so pissed about SUVs? Is it because they feel jealous of people that own them? Because they feel unsafe driving in traffic with them? Or possibly because they once knew somebody they didn't like that drove one.

I think the biggest reason people hate SUVs is because they believe they are pretentious, a flagrant display of wealth in, what they believe to be, a ridiculous useless fashion. If it is for some reason besides gas mileage, get to the point. The extra money I spend on gas comes out of my pocket, not yours/

How many of the people complaining about SUVs drive the new hybrids? Always turn off the lights? Turn the thermostat way up in summer and way down in winter? Install a 3/4 gallon toilet? Watersavers on their sinks and showerheads?

Do you buy products that come in tons of packing material? Do you donate to greenpeace, the sierra club, or another environmental advocacy group? Do you recycle everything you can, even if it means going out of your way?

If you can't answer yes to all those questions, why not try to change your own environmentally-harmful behavior before trying to tell other people how to live their lives...
[/rant]

I don't mean this as a personal attack on anybody here and do not want to start a flamewar. Everybody here has been civil at least. I am just getting fed up with all the BS I keep hearing.

-Biscuits

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#134685 - 14/01/2003 02:26 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: visuvius]
number6
old hand

Registered: 30/04/2001
Posts: 745
Loc: In The Village or sometimes: A...
In reply to:


I think SUV-lanes and extra taxes and fees for people who buy SUV's are the first place to start curbing SUV-sales.




Before you charge more, how about changing the rules so that these folks end up paying the *same* level of taxes that you pay - for folks who buy expensive SUVs thats probably a good place to start don't you think?

One of those links on the DetroitProjects website has a article about SUVs which mentions the unfeasibly large tax-breaks some SUV owners legally get - in one case cited something like $32,000 back in year 1 from a $47,000 SUV - if thats the case, then this guy in that story bought himself a $15,000 SUV - probably not worth the $47K that he paid for it, given that Detroit makes up to $10,000 per vehicle profit on SUVs, but presumably more than $15K "after tax break price" at least.

Who knows what the tax breaks in years 2,3 etc are either - could be you end up getting paid to drive the damn thing.

Mind you, I'd guess you would have to be paid to drive it after all the Tax break funds probably get spent in putting gas into the damn thing over 5 years anyway

But making sure the tax playing field is level to start with might be a good place to start to curb excessive sales...



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#134686 - 14/01/2003 03:32 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: Biscuitsjam]
number6
old hand

Registered: 30/04/2001
Posts: 745
Loc: In The Village or sometimes: A...
In reply to:


sometimes I think the biggest reason people hate SUVs is because they believe they are pretentious, a flagrant display of wealth in, what they believe to be, a ridiculous useless fashion. If it is for some reason besides gas mileage, get to the point. The extra money I spend on gas comes out of my pocket, not yours

In reply to:



You are correct, most non-SUV drivers dislike SUVs for all the reasons you describe and then some.

The poor gas mileage tag is merely a covenient but potent symbol to lots of people everywhere of everything that is perceived to be wrong with the US's current energy policy - and to non-Americans around the world, SUVs also symbolise everything thats wrong with America, American Big-Business and their ethics and (by logical extension) the American way of life in general.

- i.e:
"I drive/own a SUV - you [the rest of the planet/roadusers etc] can get lost as long we have the cheapest gas on the planet and can conspicuously waste it while emitting 25% of the worlds CO2 and other Greenhouses gases despite having under 5% of the worlds population while simultaneously denying any responsibility for global warming and expecting the rest of the world to make sacrifices, I (and my country) are unwilling to make to help ensure the long term survival of all life on this planet".

- And the Detroit car makers have the attitude:
"Detroit makes and sells SUVs - who cares what the country or world wants - we'll produce these overpriced, poor driving, poor performing, gas guzzling SUVs because these are the only vehicles that we make decent (by our standards) profits on, and we willl actively lobby and pay off Congress and anyone else who'll listen and act swiftly to ensure our rights to make and sell these vehicles without undue hindrance are preserved even if necessary by seeking law changes and by gaining tax breaks for SUV buyers while we continue denying any responsibility for the consequences - such as unsafe vehicles or lowering the national average MPG figures and thereby increasing the countries dependance on foreign oil supplies amoungst other things.".

I don't necessarily agree with this view - but I can see why some people would come to this view.

In any case when the world is seemingly overrun by SUVs we will know who to thank for that state of affairs.

In reply to:


How many of the people complaining about SUVs drive the new hybrids? Always turn off the lights? Turn the thermostat way up in summer and way down in winter? Install a 3/4 gallon toilet? Watersavers on their sinks and showerheads?




Considering that Detroit has yet to release any commercial Hybrid vehicle, not a lot of people in America actually will have been given the chance to buy one.

The Hybrid SUV's shown at the recent Detroit Motor show were concepts and prototypes and it may be many years if ever before these vehicles ever hit showroom floors and then only [according to GM] if there is "high demand" for them - something that will never happen while the current situation re: SUVs persists.

Most current hybrids available to purchase are Japanese or Euopean imports.

Regarding energy use in general - erergy used from renewable sources - e,g hydro-electric, wind power etc, biological [renewable plant] sources is not the problem, its the energy/electricity used from non-renewable sources like oil, coal, nuclear thats the problem.

Nuclear is considered non-renewable because generally the true cost of the clean up from an "end of life" nuclear power plant exceeds the value of the electricity generated over the lifetime of the power plant.

Many so called "clean" technologies like Solar suffer from the same problem - it used to take more energy to extract and refine and produce all the special materials and then to turn them in to a solar cell than the cell will ever produce as electricity in its lifetime.

The same will apply to hydrogen powered cars when they become commonplace, if the hydrogen is generated from non-renewable sources too it will be little better than other non-renewable energy forms.

In reply to:


Do you buy products that come in tons of packing material? Do you donate to greenpeace, the sierra club, or another environmental advocacy group?

Do you recycle everything you can, even if it means going out of your way?




The golden rule of the the three "r"s of waste minimisation are:
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle - in that order - ie. recycling comes last, reducing and reusing are generally more beneficial to the environment than mere "recycling" - which is a "end of the road" thing.

Some things like glass are not actually that efficient to recycle - neither are most post-consumer plastics due to the lack of proper sorting and inability to seperate the various plastic types effectively and efficiently.
So Reducing and if possible, Re-use, are the best options currently for many things.

Greenpeace encourages people to "think globallty and act locally" - meaning don't just give money for someone else to do it for you, do it yourself, for the right reasons...

don't buy that SUV [amoungst other things] if you don't actually need a SUV.





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#134687 - 14/01/2003 05:05 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
>safer if there is an accident

Erm...all the figures I have seen show that in a big accident, most SUV's are more dangerous due to weaker passenger compartment, greater propensity for rolling etc.

Also much more dangerous to everyone outside the SUV - greater mass, more metal at pedestrian chest height etc.

More likely to be in accidents as a high percentage of SUV drivers are not trained to cope with the handling characteristics of a large mass of metal, while gaining a false sense of security from the height and size of the vehicle.

I would post links, but I'm at work and have no time.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#134688 - 14/01/2003 05:28 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: frog51]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Just to weigh in here, I'd only recently heard that there were people who didn't like SUV's. I laughed out loud until I realized this was a genuine sentament. I suppose living in Texas has kind of isolated me from those opinions because here if you didn't like big cars (trucks), you certainly wouldn't talk about it. I think when you first move here you have to not only buy a truck, but having an oponion about which kind (Ford, Chevy, or Dodge mostly) is superoir is required to stay at any length.

It is funny that every third vehicle I see in Texas ISN"T an SUV or truck (I'd say 2 out of 3 ARE), and I'd never even thought about it before I started hearing this about people not liking SUVs. Around here just about everyone has one and wouldn't think living without a big "Family" vehicle. I realize people used to use big sedans etc. but SUVs just seem to be the ticket here.

As for my wife and I, I have a mustang and she has a Ford Escape (which is actually more car than SUV). She loves it though and we use the heck out of the thing. She's told me, however, that when we have kids she'll want to upgrade.


Edited by FerretBoy (14/01/2003 05:53)
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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#134689 - 14/01/2003 05:59 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: JeffS]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
she has a Ford Escape (which is actually more car than SUV). She loves it though and we use the heck out of the thing. She's told me, however, that when we have kids she'll want to upgrade.

Upgrade from a Ford Escape? What size kids were you intending to have, that wouldn't fit in one of those?

Peter

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#134690 - 14/01/2003 06:06 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: peter]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Some of these SUVs are so accurately named though. I give you...

...the Chevrolet Avalanche:

http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/ChevyAvalanche/Index.htm
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#134691 - 14/01/2003 07:14 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: tonyc]
davec
old hand

Registered: 18/08/2000
Posts: 992
Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
I'm the guy in the 3/4 ton truck towing a boat getting cut off by the Soccer Mom who has no clue that it takes more than 3 feet to stop 12,000 pounds of vehicle... Some people don't know how to drive any vehicle, period!
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#134692 - 14/01/2003 07:21 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: davec]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
This is the problem - folks like you who have a legitimate use for these large vehicles, and (in my experience) a good working knowledge of the performance and limitations do end up getting a bad name because of the huge proliferation of the "soccer mom" type, who can't drive, have no spacial awareness, no reflexes to speak of and are just generally crap.

A good truck driver, when given a space, will be able to spot it, move into it and indicate his thanks, while a typical SUV driver (again, the "soccer mom" type) won't even see the space until it's too late, then try and get into it, causing everyone to hit the anchors, then realise things are a bit tight and brake heavily or swerve and then give you the finger when you try to pass her as she's sitting at speed limit minus 10 for the next 40 miles.

Akkkk - can you tell I hate them
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#134693 - 14/01/2003 07:38 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Upgrade from a Ford Escape? What size kids were you intending to have, that wouldn't fit in one of those?[/list]While I agree, and people seem to think that they need more room because it's possible to get more room, I don't think you have any idea how big these things are (or maybe you do -- how much time have you spent in the US lately?).

The Escape is 173" (14'5" or 4.4m) long. The Ford Excursion is 226.7" (18'11" or 5.75m) long. That's an additional 4'6" (1.35m). You could stack your children like a cord of firewood in that additional space alone. (Okay, additional interior space doesn't equal exterior dimensions, but still.) In addition, it's over 9 1/2" (25cm) wider and over 8" (20.5cm) taller.

These things are HUGE.
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#134694 - 14/01/2003 07:39 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: frog51]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
In reply to:

Erm...all the figures I have seen show that in a big accident, most SUV's are more dangerous due to weaker passenger compartment, greater propensity for rolling etc.




If you were to be in an accident, would you rather be in an Expidition, or a Miata? I'll take a tank with a fault over a well built tin can any day. And for the record, my Jeep Cherokee saved my life in a head-on collision. The guy who caused the accident was about 2 inches from not faring so well. (He decided it was a good idea to turn left through a green light without bothering to look who was coming or even using his turn signal)

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#134695 - 14/01/2003 07:48 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
The only collision instance I'd rather be in an SUV would be in a head-on collision, and, even then, I don't enjoy the prospect of the increased probability of killing the people in the other car. In pretty much any other accident, I'd rather be in the Miata, as it either would involve a good chance of flipping in the SUV, or wouldn't be a particularly dangerous accident (and I'd rather be in the Miata, all things being equal). Not to mention how much easier it would be to safely avoid an accident in the Miata in the first place.

    He decided it was a good idea to turn left through a green light without bothering to look who was coming or even using his turn signal
You mean he turned left in front of oncoming traffic? Wow.
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#134696 - 14/01/2003 07:55 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
If you were to be in an accident, would you rather be in an Expidition, or a Miata?

Oh come on, that's just being silly. How many people out there are driving Miatas because they didn't want something as big as an Expedition ?

If you want to compare cars and their crash survivability then compare two that are aimed at even vaguely similar markets. Like a Volvo XC70 or something (yes I know a Volvo XC70 isn't directly comparable with the Expedition, but at least it's in the ball park).

And for the record, my Jeep Cherokee saved my life in a head-on collision.

No offence, but how do you know the fact that you were in a Jeep saved your life ? Did you try out the accident in a range of other cars, some of which didn't save your life ?
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#134697 - 14/01/2003 07:57 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: wfaulk]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Yeah, it was pretty wacko. He just sorta spaced out for a minute. I wouldn't have been so lucky either except I was the only one out of the 6 people in my car with a seat belt on. My (at that time) G/F put her fist through my windshied and another guy broke his nose on my head, other than that, we were all OK. Of course, both cars were pretty much toast. Oh, and I found out that I REALLY overbuilt my sub box. It pushed a V into the rear bench seat. Took it out, plugged it in, played fine.

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#134698 - 14/01/2003 07:57 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
For the record I would rather be in the Miata in almost all circumstances as well. In fact a Miata is exactly what I drive....
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#134699 - 14/01/2003 08:12 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
how big these things are

We parked in the shadow of a Chevrolet Suburban the last time we visited HQ in Santa Clara. There were also plenty of Ford F250 and even F350 trucks that clearly weren't being used in any sort of light commercial trucking role.

I love the way that the Suburban in particular looks like someone just stuck a normal-sized vehicle on the end of a high-pressure air hose by accident. And what self-parodist at Chevrolet came up with the name, anyway?

Peter

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#134700 - 14/01/2003 08:14 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: andy]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Did you try out the accident in a range of other cars, some of which didn't save your life?

LOL

Peter

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#134701 - 14/01/2003 08:31 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: mschrag]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
I like my SUV. That's good enough for me. The arguments of supporting terrorists by owning an SUV is weakened greatly by the blatantly glutanous life styles all around us especially of those leading the charge such as Huffington. Yes SUVs are bigger than other vehicles but they themselves are shadowed by semis and other trucks with drivers who may or may have not slept in the last 24 hours. I guess we justify the loss of life they create when in accidents because they are "needed". I see as many bad drivers in smaller vehicles as I do in SUVs. It simply does not take a rocket scientist to realize that a bad driver is indeed a bad driver whether in an SUV, a tractor-trailer or a sub-compact. It all comes down to choice. If someone CHOOSES a smaller vehicle they run a higher risk of injury. But for someone to choose a smaller vehicle and then try to force these riskier vehicles on others is ridiculous. I personally could not live with myself if I forced a person to purchase a car that they would have otherwise not chosen themselves. I don't know, I guess that's just me.

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#134702 - 14/01/2003 08:40 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: rtundo]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
You assume that just because a vehicle is bigger, that it automatically makes it safer. Crash tests have shown that the badly designed SUVs fare worse in crashes than well designed smaller cars.

Just taking a large, heavy chassis and sticking some body work on the top of it does not make it safer than a car designed with crash survivability in mind.
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#134703 - 14/01/2003 08:42 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: andy]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
I know that had it not crumpled properly, I would not be typing today. That's good enough for me. Had I been in a miata, I would have been crushed.

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#134704 - 14/01/2003 08:46 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    And what self-parodist at Chevrolet came up with the name [Suburban], anyway?
Chevrolet has actually made a model called the Suburban since 1936, when it was a work truck for people who lived in suburban areas -- that is small farmers, mostly, and it was used to go into town and buy your supplies for the month or move medium-sized deliverables. Only in the last 15 years or so has it become a popular vehicle for the great unwashed.
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#134705 - 14/01/2003 08:53 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: andy]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
You can spin the safety issue either way depending on many variables. My point is that people should have a right to make their own desicions based on what information they choose to take into account. Many foods are deemed "bad" for you but people decide what they want to eat based on their own desires and information not on what other people decide they should eat. There are a lot of small cars that I love and I'm glad when people are happy driving them. I prefer an SUV for comfort, ride, size, etc. Those are the coices I have put into my desicion to purchase my SUV.

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#134706 - 14/01/2003 08:53 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Had I been in a miata, I would have been crushed.

How do you know that ?

In European tests the Miata (MX5) and Jeep performed very similarly:

Jeep:

Test Scores: Front 9(56%) Side 15(83%) Overall 24(71)% Pedestrian 3(8%)

MX5:

Test Scores: Front 11(69%) Side 14(78%) Overall 25(74)% Pedestrian 7(19%)

(higher scores are better)

From http://www.euroncap.com/results.htm
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#134707 - 14/01/2003 08:56 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: rtundo]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
There are a lot of small cars that I love and I'm glad when people are happy driving them. I prefer an SUV for comfort, ride, size, etc

That's fair enough, I can see why people like SUVs, they have a certain chunky appeal. It just concerns me when people say "I've got my SUV 'cos it's safer so I'm looking after my kids".
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#134708 - 14/01/2003 08:57 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: rtundo]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yes, but if you decide to eat mortadella, you're not killing anyone but yourself. SUVs have been uncontestedly shown to increase deaths in the other vehicle in any accidents in which they are involved.
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#134709 - 14/01/2003 08:59 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: andy]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I certainly don't understand the comfort issue. Do you really enjoy climbing up into a car? A Lincoln Towncar or equivalent is much more confortable to me. The ride is usually awful, especially when you take handling into account, and size? I don't get why people think bigger is better. If you mean interior space, I suppose I can understand that, though.
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#134710 - 14/01/2003 09:04 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: wfaulk]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
That statement is meaningless to me without further information. One thing I have learned is data is data is data but the interpretation of the data can be spun many ways from Sunday. A person with an agenda targeting SUVs will most likely interpret crash statistics with a spin against SUVs. Are the SUVs at fault? Should we target bad drivers instead? How many larger trucks are responsible for highway deaths than SUVs? If you compare compacts to subcompacts do you get similar results as comparing SUVs to cars in general?
There seems to be an anti-SUV campaign being launched absent of many facts.

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#134711 - 14/01/2003 09:07 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: andy]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Well, common physics applies. The more mass an object carries, the more intertia. The more inertia, the less damage to said object. Think of it like a train hitting a bus, the train was not designed to implode when it hits something and yet, they tend to barely get a scratch when they are involved in an accident.

For a quick primer:

http://www.dmturner.org/Teacher/Library/4thText/EnergyPart2.html


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#134712 - 14/01/2003 09:08 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
OK.... That last post was kinda ugly. I apologize.

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#134713 - 14/01/2003 09:09 Re: Pretty interesting [Re: lectric]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
I think that's only part of the story. I think integrity of the design is also a major factor. I would not be surprised a BMW 5/7 series drivers compartment held up better than a Chevy Suburban (though I don't know this to be the case). I think a lot of considerations have to go into determining the survivability of a vehicle after a crash.

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