It looks like another company is going to sell PhatBoxes. This time it's a little company called VW/Audi. From the picture it looks like it's just a different shell again. I wonder if it will have Keg in the name.

http://www.phatnoise.com/products/

That's no big surprise. OEM integration into cars is what they've been working on from the start. Even their early models were only compatible with certain car manufacturer's stock head units.

Is it just me or is that an iomega peerless just re-labeled? Must have taken them a long time to develop THAT one.

- trs

Well.. considering the PhatBox was out before I ever heard of the Peerless, no.. Besides, it hooks up via USB, so it's not exactly the same thing..

The Peerless does hook up via USB, and there is a firewire model as well. See here.

Didn't notice the USB version. As for any differences, take it from Hugo.

I wonder which came first - or maybe PhatBox and Iomega both bought designs from the same company. If so, I wonder what that company is...

- trs

The phatnoise cart is sensible; it's a 2.5" drive in a box. The peerless is very strange, they've taken the drive electronics off and replaced it with a buffer board - to make the carts cheaper.

Except they aren't. If you open a peerless base, you'll also see an IBM travelstar mainboard - unscrewed from an actual drive, it looks like. This also limits the capacity, as you can't use drives that are incompatible with the base's electronics.

I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...

Hugo

I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...

Iomega Zip
Iomega Jazz
Iomega Ditto
Iomega Peerless

I've always got the impressions that Iomega come up with some reasonable technology and then manage to market it into oblivion with their 'catchy' names.

I'm sure that if Iomega had refrained from naming the Zip as such, and had just stuck with "250MB Floppy Disk" then they would have stood a chance of gaining a reasonable market share. At the same time, if they had licensed the tech' to the Taiwanese manufacturers, there'd probably be zip drives in every PC sold today.

They're still trying. Zip750 is the latest. And we still buy 1.44MB floppy drives.

Well, that PhatBox system looks like it could be pretty cool if they could build a worth while in-car interface. Just changing albums like a cd changer obviously wouldn't cut it for any serious mp3 audiophile. As I'm sure we all know.

- trs

I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...

I am sure they are making sure you can't just slap a larger hdd into the cartridge so you have to buy more crap from iomega.

Comparing the Phatbox to an Empeg isn't fair, but iIf you compare it to a CD changer it's awesome. 999 CDs, 99 tracks each is pretty good compared to say a 10 disk changer. To expect more from it is a little harsh as it's technologicly limited to whatever the CD changer interface is for the particular head unit it's connected to.

Oh - I'd say the comparison is fair. The interface could be as comprehensive as the developers wanted (They don't have to limit themselves to being compatible with existing systems ONLY). Compared to a cd changer, the PhatBox would be pretty cool - although I wonder what it takes to change from cd 1 to cd 45.

After all, however, this IS the Empeg forum. I honestly think that companies like PhatNoise should strive to create ICE systems that are at least on par with the empeg if not superior. As much as I love my empeg - I think it would be a shame to have to still be using my Mark II 10 years from now.

- trs

I think it would be a shame to have to still be using my Mark II 10 years from now.

Really? Do you see anything really exciting in OEM or aftermarket audio systems that makes you think anything better is coming along? What other features do you need from a car stereo that aren't in the empeg? What is it that you think you'd be missing out on if you're still using a Mk2 10 years from now? Voice recognition is all I can think of at this very moment, and that's still feasable on the empeg, in some capacity.

I'm rather curious as to your responses, because I happen to be doing a major research project in grad school on where in-car audio systems are going in the next 5-10 years... And I keep coming up with ideas that are already within reach on the empeg, but nobody's tackled them yet.

The only things I can think of are aesthetics, capacity, integration, ease-of-use and on-demand.

Aesthetics: A color screen would be nice. Different fascia. These things are largely irrelevant.

Capacity: Really, very few of us have the need for the huge amounts of storage already available, but maybe.

Integration: It would be nice for it to be more closely integrated with the car, making built-in buttons work more easily, deal with information from the car, etc. I think that some sort of data interface with the cars electronics would be neat, rather than having to hack anything in that's not simply audio. Multiplexed data from OBD systems, onboard GPS, fuel, oil, door, button monitors, etc. could be very useful. Output to a HUD would be neat, too, or even to a rear seat interface.

Ease-of-use: Could be stuff from buttons to making music easier to load (transportable media, wireless network, etc.) to UI improvements, possibly based on UI technologies that don't exist yet. I'm not sure that voice commands are the panacea people think, at leat not until it could interpret ``play me some Bosstones'', rather than ``Playlists. B. B. B. Damn it! Left. Left. Left. Left. Damn! Right. Down. Down.''

On-demand: It would be nice if I could find music online without expending so much effort. Of course, I can, really, but I don't feel like paying as much for it as if I went to the record store. I'd like to be able to hear a few songs before buying an album, but if it costs me as much to download the songs as buying the album in the first place, then I've either saved no money or spent twice as much. So it'd be nice if there were programmable internet radios or something like that, where I could tell the empeg what I wanted to hear and it would find it. Preferably while in use -- not as part of some configuration-time activity.

On-demand: It would be nice if I could find music online without expending so much effort. Of course, I can, really, but I don't feel like paying as much for it as if I went to the record store. I'd like to be able to hear a few songs before buying an album, but if it costs me as much to download the songs as buying the album in the first place, then I've either saved no money or spent twice as much. So it'd be nice if there were programmable internet radios or something like that, where I could tell the empeg what I wanted to hear and it would find it. Preferably while in use -- not as part of some configuration-time activity.

This is some of the stuff that we're working into the concept of our research project. I'll have to post our paper here once we're complete. IF we ever finish, that is.

I got a free subscription to Rhapsody Radio Plus (which is their basic-level service) which does something sort of like this. I can tell it that I like a band, and it'll play a stream that contains songs by that band and other similar artists.

The real problem with that is that the concept of similar is pretty hard to define and is always implemented poorly. Just because I like Pearl Jam doesn't mean that I like Creed in any way. Quality (which is subjective anyway) seems never to be taken into account in such algorithms.

The real problem with that is that the concept of similar is pretty hard to define and is always implemented poorly. Just because I like Pearl Jam doesn't mean that I like Creed in any way. Quality (which is subjective anyway) seems never to be taken into account in such algorithms.

Well I don't think computers can figure it out to that level. But if you have more characteristics about each song, (like the AllMusic database, for instance) and can find patterns in those, you'll at least have better results than simply throwing random songs at the user. Tying in information on what other people do (like Amazon's "customers who bought Pearl Jam also bought Creed" feature) helps a little bit too. It's not going to be perfect, but all things being equal, an imperfect system is better than the absence of any system at all.

Or that's what we're banking on in our paper, anyway.

Here's an idea. Have the user rank songs. Have the user also rank himself as to his pickiness, or attempt to infer this from his rankings. That could help with the quality settings, as there are some people who like Pearl Jam and Creed, and there are other people who recognize that Creed suck, regardless of who they sound like.

What other features do you need from a car stereo that aren't in the empeg? What is it that you think you'd be missing out on if you're still using a Mk2 10 years from now?

I never said any features were missing form the empeg (I was referring to the PhatBox as missing features). I simply was stating that I hoped that development efforts in the mp3 ICE system area continued and I was setting the empeg as the par to measure by. Of course, if my Mark II is the only thing available 10 years from now I'll hapilly use it. But, how many computers do you use regularly that are 10 years old or more? And if you do use them, are you happy with their performance? I'd much rather be using my Mark IV 10 years from now than my relic Mark II. Although I'd still have it in the closet!

- trs

Already got that in, sorta. User ranks 1-10 and the system adjusts the weights. Having the user set their own weights on each factor wouldn't be very useful to all but the geekiest of us who would know how to use it. Right now we've just got a simple 1-10 rating scheme, tied in with the conditions under which the rating as added (time of day, calendar time, etc) and taking into account historical ratings of a song (i.e. you gave it a 7 last month, now it's a 5.) The system tries to tie in not only how often that song should be played, but what other new releases you might want to hear, etc. It's not very sophisticated yet but we're only about 1/3 the way through the development cycle, and we've only got a 15 week class to do it in. But based on the skeleton we have now, I think after two or three Creed songs, it would notice a correlation between low ratings and the Artist attribute, and adjust accordingly.

1. I love my empeg more than (almost) anything.

I think t24 has a valid point:

There is no way to tell what technological advancements will occur to promote new technology in the future.

10 years ago, did you ever imagine that there could be such a device that would allow you to take every song you'd ever care to hear with you in your car? Doubtful.

We may see the ceiling at present with the empeg, but there will always be bigger(or smaller) and better down the line.

Yeah, I know all of this, I was just trying to gauge what people thought those innovations might be. Really, I'm just trying to use you guys as free idea generators for my Master's project.

How about some sort of bionic ear implant for direct digital-to-synapse transfer. Then whenever mircodrives hit 20Gb or so build an implantable player...could be wireless ethernet too.

Oh, no problem - just discourse.

So your Master's project, eh? Building the better mousetrap/mp3 stereo? You'll have to keep us all posted on that. That's exactly the kinda thing I was hoping was heppening.

- trs

My last post belongs under the IEE forum heading I suppose...

*Ba-dum CHING*

- trs

I guess my point isn't about individual bands. I was just using that for a concrete example. To generalize, sorta, in addition to genre-type associations, there are also quality associations. It would be nice if your algorithm could find those, too.

The TiVo is a good example. Just because I like Blade Runner and Alien doesn't mean that I want to watch every half-assed made for the SciFi channel movie. But the TiVo assumes I do, because all it knows is that I like SF movies. If there was some way to say that Blade Runner and Alien are good, but Code Name Phoenix is not, that would be a tremendous improvement.

-> trs24:

So your Master's project, eh? Building the better mousetrap/mp3 stereo? You'll have to keep us all posted on that. That's exactly the kinda thing I was hoping was heppening.

Will do. Be warned that this is purely a research project, though. We're coming up with ideas, writing requirements, doing some design work, etc... But none of us is actually smart enough (or wealthy enough) to make this into an actual product.

-> Bitt:

The TiVo is a good example. Just because I like Blade Runner and Alien doesn't mean that I want to watch every half-assed made for the SciFi channel movie. But the TiVo assumes I do, because all it knows is that I like SF movies. If there was some way to say that Blade Runner and Alien are good, but Code Name Phoenix is not, that would be a tremendous improvement.

Well it sounds like our system would figure that out, too. TiVo's flaw seems to be that they just look at one attribute (genre) and not multiple attributes (genre, series name, etc.) Going back to the music analogy, the TiVo example you've provided just sounds like an analog to the Pearl Jam / Creed example, just substitute the series name for the Artist. So if our methodology were applied to TiVo, you'd be rating your Blade Runner and Alien movies with high marks, and Code Name Phoenix would get low marks. Over time, your chances of being suggested Code Name Phoenix (and, to a lesser extent, other movies with attributes similar to Code Name Phoenix) would be reduced.

We don't have all the data structures/algorithms charted out yet, but it's starting to look like a neural network to me, and that's scaring the piss out of me.

Well, not quite. The problem is in determining, after I say that I don't want to see Code Name Phoenix, but I do want to see Blade Runner and Alien, that I also don't want to see Future War, Time Chasers, or Space Mutiny, but I do want to see Strange Days and The Matrix, despite the fact that I've never given any direct information about those movies.

Of course, there will always be points where my idea of good and someone else's don't jive, but often there are universal quality judgements.