#145060 - 22/02/2003 11:27
Another company is selling PhatBoxes
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new poster
Registered: 09/02/2002
Posts: 15
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It looks like another company is going to sell PhatBoxes. This time it's a little company called VW/Audi. From the picture it looks like it's just a different shell again. I wonder if it will have Keg in the name.
http://www.phatnoise.com/products/
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#145061 - 22/02/2003 20:06
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: CityBeach]
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addict
Registered: 30/05/2002
Posts: 695
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That's no big surprise. OEM integration into cars is what they've been working on from the start. Even their early models were only compatible with certain car manufacturer's stock head units.
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#145062 - 22/02/2003 23:28
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: DeadFire]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Is it just me or is that an iomega peerless just re-labeled? Must have taken them a long time to develop THAT one. 
- trs
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- trs
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#145063 - 23/02/2003 01:41
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 443
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Well.. considering the PhatBox was out before I ever heard of the Peerless, no.. Besides, it hooks up via USB, so it's not exactly the same thing..
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#145064 - 23/02/2003 01:52
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: Yang]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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The Peerless does hook up via USB, and there is a firewire model as well. See here.
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#145065 - 23/02/2003 09:08
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: ricin]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 443
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Didn't notice the USB version. As for any differences, take it from Hugo.
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#145066 - 23/02/2003 14:04
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: Yang]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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I wonder which came first - or maybe PhatBox and Iomega both bought designs from the same company. If so, I wonder what that company is...
- trs
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- trs
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#145067 - 23/02/2003 17:59
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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The phatnoise cart is sensible; it's a 2.5" drive in a box. The peerless is very strange, they've taken the drive electronics off and replaced it with a buffer board - to make the carts cheaper.
Except they aren't. If you open a peerless base, you'll also see an IBM travelstar mainboard - unscrewed from an actual drive, it looks like. This also limits the capacity, as you can't use drives that are incompatible with the base's electronics.
I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...
Hugo
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#145068 - 23/02/2003 21:08
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: altman]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...
Iomega Zip
Iomega Jazz
Iomega Ditto
Iomega Peerless
I've always got the impressions that Iomega come up with some reasonable technology and then manage to market it into oblivion with their 'catchy' names.
I'm sure that if Iomega had refrained from naming the Zip as such, and had just stuck with "250MB Floppy Disk" then they would have stood a chance of gaining a reasonable market share. At the same time, if they had licensed the tech' to the Taiwanese manufacturers, there'd probably be zip drives in every PC sold today.
They're still trying. Zip750 is the latest. And we still buy 1.44MB floppy drives.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#145069 - 23/02/2003 23:30
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: genixia]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Well, that PhatBox system looks like it could be pretty cool if they could build a worth while in-car interface. Just changing albums like a cd changer obviously wouldn't cut it for any serious mp3 audiophile. As I'm sure we all know.
- trs
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- trs
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#145070 - 23/02/2003 23:46
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I have no idea what Iomega were thinking...
I am sure they are making sure you can't just slap a larger hdd into the cartridge so you have to buy more crap from iomega.
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Matt
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#145071 - 24/02/2003 07:28
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 443
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Comparing the Phatbox to an Empeg isn't fair, but iIf you compare it to a CD changer it's awesome. 999 CDs, 99 tracks each is pretty good compared to say a 10 disk changer. To expect more from it is a little harsh as it's technologicly limited to whatever the CD changer interface is for the particular head unit it's connected to.
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#145072 - 24/02/2003 09:26
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: Yang]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Oh - I'd say the comparison is fair. The interface could be as comprehensive as the developers wanted (They don't have to limit themselves to being compatible with existing systems ONLY). Compared to a cd changer, the PhatBox would be pretty cool - although I wonder what it takes to change from cd 1 to cd 45.
After all, however, this IS the Empeg forum. I honestly think that companies like PhatNoise should strive to create ICE systems that are at least on par with the empeg if not superior. As much as I love my empeg - I think it would be a shame to have to still be using my Mark II 10 years from now.
- trs
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#145073 - 24/02/2003 11:15
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I think it would be a shame to have to still be using my Mark II 10 years from now.
Really? Do you see anything really exciting in OEM or aftermarket audio systems that makes you think anything better is coming along? What other features do you need from a car stereo that aren't in the empeg? What is it that you think you'd be missing out on if you're still using a Mk2 10 years from now? Voice recognition is all I can think of at this very moment, and that's still feasable on the empeg, in some capacity.
I'm rather curious as to your responses, because I happen to be doing a major research project in grad school on where in-car audio systems are going in the next 5-10 years... And I keep coming up with ideas that are already within reach on the empeg, but nobody's tackled them yet.
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#145074 - 24/02/2003 11:39
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The only things I can think of are aesthetics, capacity, integration, ease-of-use and on-demand.
Aesthetics: A color screen would be nice. Different fascia. These things are largely irrelevant.
Capacity: Really, very few of us have the need for the huge amounts of storage already available, but maybe.
Integration: It would be nice for it to be more closely integrated with the car, making built-in buttons work more easily, deal with information from the car, etc. I think that some sort of data interface with the cars electronics would be neat, rather than having to hack anything in that's not simply audio. Multiplexed data from OBD systems, onboard GPS, fuel, oil, door, button monitors, etc. could be very useful. Output to a HUD would be neat, too, or even to a rear seat interface.
Ease-of-use: Could be stuff from buttons to making music easier to load (transportable media, wireless network, etc.) to UI improvements, possibly based on UI technologies that don't exist yet. I'm not sure that voice commands are the panacea people think, at leat not until it could interpret ``play me some Bosstones'', rather than ``Playlists. B. B. B. Damn it! Left. Left. Left. Left. Damn! Right. Down. Down.''
On-demand: It would be nice if I could find music online without expending so much effort. Of course, I can, really, but I don't feel like paying as much for it as if I went to the record store. I'd like to be able to hear a few songs before buying an album, but if it costs me as much to download the songs as buying the album in the first place, then I've either saved no money or spent twice as much. So it'd be nice if there were programmable internet radios or something like that, where I could tell the empeg what I wanted to hear and it would find it. Preferably while in use -- not as part of some configuration-time activity.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145075 - 24/02/2003 11:41
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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On-demand: It would be nice if I could find music online without expending so much effort. Of course, I can, really, but I don't feel like paying as much for it as if I went to the record store. I'd like to be able to hear a few songs before buying an album, but if it costs me as much to download the songs as buying the album in the first place, then I've either saved no money or spent twice as much. So it'd be nice if there were programmable internet radios or something like that, where I could tell the empeg what I wanted to hear and it would find it. Preferably while in use -- not as part of some configuration-time activity.
This is some of the stuff that we're working into the concept of our research project. I'll have to post our paper here once we're complete. IF we ever finish, that is.
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#145076 - 24/02/2003 11:48
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I got a free subscription to Rhapsody Radio Plus (which is their basic-level service) which does something sort of like this. I can tell it that I like a band, and it'll play a stream that contains songs by that band and other similar artists.
The real problem with that is that the concept of similar is pretty hard to define and is always implemented poorly. Just because I like Pearl Jam doesn't mean that I like Creed in any way. Quality (which is subjective anyway) seems never to be taken into account in such algorithms.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145077 - 24/02/2003 11:57
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The real problem with that is that the concept of similar is pretty hard to define and is always implemented poorly. Just because I like Pearl Jam doesn't mean that I like Creed in any way. Quality (which is subjective anyway) seems never to be taken into account in such algorithms.
Well I don't think computers can figure it out to that level. But if you have more characteristics about each song, (like the AllMusic database, for instance) and can find patterns in those, you'll at least have better results than simply throwing random songs at the user. Tying in information on what other people do (like Amazon's "customers who bought Pearl Jam also bought Creed" feature) helps a little bit too. It's not going to be perfect, but all things being equal, an imperfect system is better than the absence of any system at all.
Or that's what we're banking on in our paper, anyway.
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#145078 - 24/02/2003 12:27
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Here's an idea. Have the user rank songs. Have the user also rank himself as to his pickiness, or attempt to infer this from his rankings. That could help with the quality settings, as there are some people who like Pearl Jam and Creed, and there are other people who recognize that Creed suck, regardless of who they sound like.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145079 - 24/02/2003 12:36
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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What other features do you need from a car stereo that aren't in the empeg? What is it that you think you'd be missing out on if you're still using a Mk2 10 years from now?
I never said any features were missing form the empeg (I was referring to the PhatBox as missing features). I simply was stating that I hoped that development efforts in the mp3 ICE system area continued and I was setting the empeg as the par to measure by. Of course, if my Mark II is the only thing available 10 years from now I'll hapilly use it. But, how many computers do you use regularly that are 10 years old or more? And if you do use them, are you happy with their performance? I'd much rather be using my Mark IV 10 years from now than my relic Mark II. Although I'd still have it in the closet! 
- trs
Edited by trs24 (24/02/2003 12:41)
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#145080 - 24/02/2003 12:41
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Already got that in, sorta. User ranks 1-10 and the system adjusts the weights. Having the user set their own weights on each factor wouldn't be very useful to all but the geekiest of us who would know how to use it. Right now we've just got a simple 1-10 rating scheme, tied in with the conditions under which the rating as added (time of day, calendar time, etc) and taking into account historical ratings of a song (i.e. you gave it a 7 last month, now it's a 5.) The system tries to tie in not only how often that song should be played, but what other new releases you might want to hear, etc. It's not very sophisticated yet but we're only about 1/3 the way through the development cycle, and we've only got a 15 week class to do it in. But based on the skeleton we have now, I think after two or three Creed songs, it would notice a correlation between low ratings and the Artist attribute, and adjust accordingly.
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#145081 - 24/02/2003 13:03
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 290
Loc: Denver, CO
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1. I love my empeg more than (almost) anything.
I think t24 has a valid point:
There is no way to tell what technological advancements will occur to promote new technology in the future.
10 years ago, did you ever imagine that there could be such a device that would allow you to take every song you'd ever care to hear with you in your car? Doubtful.
We may see the ceiling at present with the empeg, but there will always be bigger(or smaller) and better down the line.
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-Jason
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#145083 - 24/02/2003 13:13
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 290
Loc: Denver, CO
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How about some sort of bionic ear implant for direct digital-to-synapse transfer. Then whenever mircodrives hit 20Gb or so build an implantable player...could be wireless ethernet too.
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-Jason
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#145084 - 24/02/2003 13:13
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Oh, no problem - just discourse.
So your Master's project, eh? Building the better mousetrap/mp3 stereo? You'll have to keep us all posted on that. That's exactly the kinda thing I was hoping was heppening.
- trs
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- trs
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#145085 - 24/02/2003 13:14
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: suomi35]
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enthusiast
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 290
Loc: Denver, CO
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My last post belongs under the IEE forum heading I suppose...
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-Jason
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#145086 - 24/02/2003 13:17
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: suomi35]
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old hand
Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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*Ba-dum CHING*
- trs
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- trs
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#145087 - 24/02/2003 13:17
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I guess my point isn't about individual bands. I was just using that for a concrete example. To generalize, sorta, in addition to genre-type associations, there are also quality associations. It would be nice if your algorithm could find those, too.
The TiVo is a good example. Just because I like Blade Runner and Alien doesn't mean that I want to watch every half-assed made for the SciFi channel movie. But the TiVo assumes I do, because all it knows is that I like SF movies. If there was some way to say that Blade Runner and Alien are good, but Code Name Phoenix is not, that would be a tremendous improvement.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145088 - 24/02/2003 13:45
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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-> trs24:
So your Master's project, eh? Building the better mousetrap/mp3 stereo? You'll have to keep us all posted on that. That's exactly the kinda thing I was hoping was heppening.
Will do. Be warned that this is purely a research project, though. We're coming up with ideas, writing requirements, doing some design work, etc... But none of us is actually smart enough (or wealthy enough) to make this into an actual product.
-> Bitt:
The TiVo is a good example. Just because I like Blade Runner and Alien doesn't mean that I want to watch every half-assed made for the SciFi channel movie. But the TiVo assumes I do, because all it knows is that I like SF movies. If there was some way to say that Blade Runner and Alien are good, but Code Name Phoenix is not, that would be a tremendous improvement.
Well it sounds like our system would figure that out, too. TiVo's flaw seems to be that they just look at one attribute (genre) and not multiple attributes (genre, series name, etc.) Going back to the music analogy, the TiVo example you've provided just sounds like an analog to the Pearl Jam / Creed example, just substitute the series name for the Artist. So if our methodology were applied to TiVo, you'd be rating your Blade Runner and Alien movies with high marks, and Code Name Phoenix would get low marks. Over time, your chances of being suggested Code Name Phoenix (and, to a lesser extent, other movies with attributes similar to Code Name Phoenix) would be reduced.
We don't have all the data structures/algorithms charted out yet, but it's starting to look like a neural network to me, and that's scaring the piss out of me.
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#145089 - 24/02/2003 14:12
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, not quite. The problem is in determining, after I say that I don't want to see Code Name Phoenix, but I do want to see Blade Runner and Alien, that I also don't want to see Future War, Time Chasers, or Space Mutiny, but I do want to see Strange Days and The Matrix, despite the fact that I've never given any direct information about those movies.
Of course, there will always be points where my idea of good and someone else's don't jive, but often there are universal quality judgements.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145090 - 24/02/2003 14:28
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Of course, there will always be points where my idea of good and someone else's don't jive, but often there are universal quality judgements.
Ahh. Subjective analysis is a portion of our hypothetical equation. Right now it's just the AllMusicGuide rating (1-5 stars.) That might be enough of a subjective "quality" judgement to help things out a little bit. And if you had a penchant for a certain low-rated artist the idea is that your repeated high ratings of that particular artist would outweigh the one-time subjective rating which is just used to provide the initial guess as to how much you like it.
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#145091 - 24/02/2003 14:52
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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There you go. And my point, ultimately, is that some people care about quality and others seem not to, so it would be important to note whether that criterion is important to the current user or not, or, possibly, to what extent.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145092 - 24/02/2003 15:02
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tonyc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/09/2000
Posts: 363
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10 years worth of new technology, car electronics, miniaturization... what would be cool to have for ICE?
1) Each person could have a bluetooth earpiece streaming different audio rather than fight over the remote.
2) Throw video in there too... each of the passengers gets a video screen and can watch their own video stream with TiVo like controls. Wireless networking will have advanced enough that you can get your live video from home or direct from satellite.
3) Automatically switch to live radio when one of your keywords comes up or when an emergency broadcast is sent out.
4) Integrate with nav system:
a) GPS system gets real-time updates of contruction zones, lane closures, accidents and traffic jams.
b) Voice recog. "Car: I'm going to the grocery store". It may reply with "Take Duddly Rd because there's construction on your normal route".
c) When approaching an intersection, if you signal, it tells the traffic light which way you're turning. This helps optimize traffic flow in certain situations (e.g. you're turing right on red and there isn't much cross-traffic, the light knows that it doesn't need to change to give you the green).
d) As you approach your house, the garage door opens.
5) When your cell phone rings, it tells you (verbally) who's calling. You can respond verbally and tell it to answer, ignore, take a message, etc.
6) It has a combo IR/weight sensor (or something better) and learns each person's prefs. Then based on who's in the car, it picks the right Wendy Filter.
7) It can hear that you're straining to have a conversation with your passenger and automatically lowers the volume a bit.
8) The transmitter at the drive-up (bank, fast food, pharmacy, etc) tells it to lower the volume or pause (at the user's pref - or automatically quieter for music and paused for books on tape).
9) Auto-pauses when your car is out of control or in an accident.
10) OBD-IV connection detects a leaky tire and uses GPS to give you directions to nearest tire shop.
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#145093 - 24/02/2003 15:16
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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There you go. And my point, ultimately, is that some people care about quality and others seem not to, so it would be important to note whether that criterion is important to the current user or not, or, possibly, to what extent.
We've been going back and forth on that. The whole question of ease-of-use comes into play. The hope is that the weights could auto-correct themselves based on how successful they are. Like, if a particular song scores high based on quality rating, and the user gives it a 1, they probably don't agree with the quality assessment. Then on another, if their rating is more in line with what the system predicted, the weight of that factor would increase. This type of stuff makes my head spin, especially when you consider that most attributes aren't in just one dimension like the "quality rating" is. But we're doing what we can, and as long as we can B.S. our way through it, I'll have my Masters degree, and thus, have my weeknights and weekends back. Hoo hah.
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#145094 - 24/02/2003 15:17
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: TheAmigo]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Yeah these are all cool things but none would happen on an aftermarket system. These are all things that would show up in a fully-integrated OEM system.
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#145095 - 24/02/2003 18:44
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Of course, there will always be points where my idea of good and someone else's don't jive, but often there are universal quality judgements.
Hmmm... gives me an idea. One of the things that TiVo could select on but doesn't is the "star rating" on the movies -- you know, one star, two stars, three stars, four stars. I don't know who decides what these ratings should be for a movie, but pretty consistently a three star movie is better than a one star movie, no matter what the genre.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#145096 - 24/02/2003 19:15
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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gives me an idea. One of the things that TiVo could select on but doesn't is the "star rating" on the movies -- you know, one star, two stars, three stars, four stars. I don't know who decides what these ratings should be for a movie, but pretty consistently a three star movie is better than a one star movie, no matter what the genre.
ReplayTV will let you record by star rating, but all their 4 star movies seem to be "classics". Personally I have no interest in watching Gone With The Wind again. If you step down to 2 or 3 stars then you just get a ton of everything. The feature I would most like to see in the replay (and one that might get me to but a Tivo if they did it first) is a date range combined with the other selectors. So you could do something like record all Action-Comedies made since 1990. I can't be the only person in the world that just doesn't watch old movies and gets sick of my PVR spending half it's time recording stuff I would never watch.
Hmm, that turned into a bit of a rant
-Mike
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#145097 - 24/02/2003 19:27
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: CityBeach]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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It looks like another company is going to sell PhatBoxes. This time it's a little company called VW/Audi. From the picture it looks like it's just a different shell again. I wonder if it will have Keg in the name.
Available this spring? in VW time, that must mean winter 04. That part number has been in the computer for a while, but there hasn't been a memo to ANY department at EITHER franchise.
But one will be finding it's way into my demo as soon as they do show up.
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#145098 - 03/03/2003 15:59
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 06/11/2001
Posts: 700
Loc: San Diego, CA, USA
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Since you're on the subject, I'd like to point out that MusicMatch uses a very sophisticated recommendation engine to determine relationships between artists, albums and songs. We do this through anonymous play log uploading.
If a user is opted-in, we upload their MP3 playlists to the server. The server then compiles lists of similar artists based on what is in the playlists.
Basically, you can assume that the 'typical' listener likes a particular style of music and tends to only listen to that. You can also assume that they will listen to similar types of artists back-to-back. So, if a user listens to Pearl Jam and then Temple of the Dog, you can 'guess' that a relationship exists between these two artists.
Now, this process is definitely not perfect. What if you get an eclectic listener (like most of the people on this board) who listens to Pearl Jam, then Bach. Or, as you specified, everybody has different tastes and they don't always 'jive'.
Well, as we all know, in small groups, deviations will be much more apparent. But, when you take into account the sheer amount of play log data we get (millions a month), these deviations become smaller and less noticeable. This is one of the key reasons why our data is pretty good.
For example, the top recommendations for Pearl Jam are:
Soundgarden
Stone Temple Pilots
Temple of the Dog
Those are pretty dead on. Now, admittedly, recommendations for obscure artists won't be as good because we won't have as many play events for them.
But, if you're curious to check it out, here's a link to our Guide, which has a search box that you can enter an artist (and optionally, an album) and get instant recommendations:
http://www.mmguide.musicmatch.com/match/best.cgi
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Scott
MKIIa 10GB - 2.0b11 w/Hijack
MKIIa 60GB - 2.0 final w/Hijack
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#145099 - 03/03/2003 17:54
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: svferris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Actually, I kind of disagree about the connection between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden. While it may be, and probably is, that many people who listen to one listen to the other, if someone came into your record shop and asked for a band that sounded like Pearl Jam, assuming that they weren't familiar with the popular music scene of the early 90s, I don't think that Soundgarden should be the first thing out of your mouth. Pearl Jam is a big 70s-rock soundalike and Soundgarden is heavy metal, despite the fact that they both got chunked into the grunge bandwagon. I think that that's more of a statistical anomaly than an accurate musical relationship. That's kinda like saying that if I like Eminem, then I'll like Britney Spears.
IMHO.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145100 - 03/03/2003 18:11
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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if I like Eminem, then I'll like Britney Spears. Although that sounds wrong, I'm sure a lot of people that like Britney Spears like Eminem (probably a majority).
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#145101 - 03/03/2003 18:25
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yes, just as if I like Pearl Jam, I'm likely to like Soundgarden.
But my point is that both of those judgements are based on coincidence, not musical similarity. Fifty years from now, someone might be shuffling through the oldies section of their local Ogg Vorbis store and pick up some Pearl Jam on a hunch and decide that they like the band. The chances that they would also like Soundgarden are not, I think any more significant than if they might like Iron Maiden, based solely on the fact that they like Pearl Jam.
The reason that a lot of people like Soundgarden and Pearl Jam is because they were part of the popular music culture at the time in which both bands were popular. Outside that coincidence, they bear little resemblance, and a suggestion to one based on the other is likely either to elicit either an ``I already know them'', which doesn't help, or to suggest another artist which has little similarity.
Replacing those two artists with Eminem and Britney Spears just exaggerates the issue.
Say your mom is playing on the radio and hears a Britney song and decides she likes it (for whatever reason). Is she likely to also like Eminem? I doubt it. The only people who like both like them because they're currently popular at the same time, not because they have any relevance to each other.
The point of a music suggestion algorithm is to provide suggestions to people based on what they currently like, not on what happened to have been popular at the same time. The only people to whom that would be important are the people who are already aware of both artists, and to whom, necessarily, such a suggestion would be irrelevant and pointless.
Sorry to say the same thing over and over. I can't quite figure out how to put it in words properly.
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Bitt Faulk
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#145102 - 03/03/2003 18:55
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I understand your point fully right now and I agree.
In time, the musicmatch database should reflect your point (I think). But, by that time, while the differnece between Pearl Jam and Soundgarden might be reflected, the new bands will be back in the old situation of Pearl Jam and Soundgarden.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#145103 - 03/03/2003 19:16
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Well, the goal of these systems isn't to be perfect... You'll never match everyone's tastes. All they're trying to do is give you recommendations and suggestions that are statistically going to make more "hits" (which equals more purchases if you decide you like it) and correlating your collection with others and using their preferences to guide your recommendations is one of the better ways to do this. There are several projects I've found which attempt to match songs by "musical similarity" (including this one) but I would argue that using ONLY this kind of metric (and excluding population-based data) would tend to limit one's exposure to new music which may be somehow relevant to songs they already own, but might not necessarily "sound" like it. While Soundgarden and Pearl Jam might not correlate highly via a musical similarity algorithm, the fact that you see them both in a lot of peoples' collections *should* be a factor in any recommendation engine... Just not the only factor.
Right now my project team and I have four basic factors that are going to go into the equation which will rank songs for new music recommendation. Population-based data like MusicMatch is using is one of those factors, and right now I think we're leaning towards it being 30% of the equation by default. But we've got seven weeks to figure out if that's good or not, and really, since we won't end up with a legitimate working system, it's all a bit hypothetical. But if I were developing a real recommendation engine, that's about as high as I'd go with the use of population-based data.
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#145104 - 20/03/2003 20:18
Re: Another company is selling PhatBoxes
[Re: trs24]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/01/2002
Posts: 264
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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I own a riocar and a PhatBox. The riocar wins hands down, however there are a couple of advantages to the PhatBox. It will work with a few factory head units, and it installs in about a half hour. If you do not have a factory head unit that is compatible, then it has NO advantages.
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Steve
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