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#245626 - 06/01/2005 20:20 Rant
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
An acquaintance posted this little analogy to his LJ today. I thought it was an interesting comparison.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#245627 - 07/01/2005 12:02 Re: Rant [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Excellent rant, and well written. I also like his "Safety Rant" in the comments.
_________________________
Matt

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#245628 - 07/01/2005 14:55 Re: Rant [Re: tfabris]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I’m not quite so taken with this rant. It IS a rant and does a good job at that, but for me it has too narrow a focus to be more applicable beyond its specific target (the church ladies). The analogy and assessment of the “colorless little nobody” is a good one and his paralleling it with the church ladies makes sense, however it is missing the broader perspective that is so important: We ALL fit the profile of this little man. He is an archetype (or I assume, having not seen the movie) that does not exist in real life. Archetypes tell us things about ourselves more than they do about other people. Each of us at some point checks out when we should be paying attention, glosses over facts that make us uncomfortable, or applies judgment to others. This is simply human nature. What we should do with this is not so much apply it to those around us, but search for the hypocrisy in our own lives

You see, I used to (well still do, truth be told) rant on and on about people around me who just seem Ok with being “simple” and not thinking things through the way they should. 80% of the people I meet every day fit this mold and any kind of meaningful discussion about politics/religion/philosophy is completely lost. They’ve made up their minds, can articulate party line points, and that’s enough for them. I used to get frustrated by people who didn’t think through their actions like they ought to. At parties I got labeled as someone who “thinks things to death” and who really wasn’t practical. I’d get angry, because from my point of view the things I think and talk about are essential. If we are to be successful in anything we do, be it business, politics, or anything else, we must strive to understand perspectives outside of our own. The businessman who starts a company making a product no one wants is sure to go bankrupt. Electing a politician who gives only me what I want can have a disastrous effect on others. We can’t just look at our world; we need to step outside for the broader perspective. When people just laughed at me for the seriousness with which I take such issues, I would get annoyed. When they dismissed me and engaged in self-centered, narrow thinking, my blood would boil.

So I understand the frustration. I’ve been there and I do my best to encourage others to get outside of themselves and really try to understand the world around them better. However, I’ve realized two things more recently in life: The first is that I do it too, just like everyone else does. We all have those issues on which we check out, and sometimes I really miss the mark. I’ve for sure thrown up my hands at some political issues that I really should have followed more closely. I just didn’t think they were important at the time. And I know I’m not alone. How many people did I talk to (critical thinkers even) during the election for which one of the candidates, depending on the individuals political leanings, could do no right. In fact, anything the aforementioned “evil” candidate did that even smelled promising was labeled as a “trick” and spun to made look evil. No way that evil person could do something right. This all came from intelligent people who must either have believed the candidate was totally evil (or incompetent) or really weren’t thinking things through. Because nobody gets it wrong on EVERY issue, not even Bush or Kerry. When I agreed with Kerry on an issue to my Bush friends, boy did I not hear the end of that. And anything I said supportive of Bush here, well we know how that went. In the end, most of us are content to look at surface issues and split down ideological lines rather than find the truth. And sometimes we don’t have much of a choice because the truth is so buried all we can do is throw up our hands. But we do throw up our hands.

And I should note further that this isn’t just limited to politics. Yes it’s easy to lament people who live out lives from a misguided, uneducated political perspective, but I lament even more those who aren’t addressing the spiritual issues. I see faith as being far more important than politics, and far more glossed over by those who get irritated by others glossing over politics.

The second thing I’ve learned, however, is more important than the first. I can take a great deal of pride in the fact that I really try to think out issues critically when other people don’t, but the truth is there are lots of areas where other people have me beat. I know some wonderful, wonderful, people who don’t even try to understand politics. They just believe in something and go with the candidate who seems to best fit that. It’s a simple outlook and many times the end up endorsing things inconsistent with their core beliefs. However, some of these people have compassion and mercy that blows me away. They truly love others in a way that I don’t, and that makes me ashamed of myself. Critical thinking and correct political ideas don’t mean anything to a starving person who’s being fed in a soup kitchen- lived out compassion and love does. That’s not to say these wonderful people shouldn’t be trying to evaluate issues more intellectually, but if we can learn from one anther certainly this world can be a better place. I should love more and they should think more.

Admittedly, the church ladies from the rant didn’t seem to exhibit much thought or love (we’re getting this from a biased source, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt), still you don’t really know where someone’s gift is. There may be areas of their lives that are incredible and add to this world in ways that none of us realize. It is a rant, so judgment without compassion is reasonable in this context, but we must make sure to realize that no one can be reduced to one flaw or strength. People are far to complex for that.

So this is my rant in return. Probably inappropriate to rant about a rant, but it’s far too easy to see fleck in other peoples eyes than it is to look at our own. Hatred is never appropriate, even for the worst of us. The most important thing we can do toward our fellow man is to never throw up our hands; rather we should to work together, build up one another, and work for the common good. We’ll probably never get there, but the trying is more important than the achieving.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245629 - 07/01/2005 15:29 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
I don't think the it's about disengaging from politics as such -- everyone has whole areas they just don't bother following (until fairly recently, US politics was one of mine -- George W Bush marked literally the first time I could confidently state the party affiliation of the US president).

I think it's about disengaging from politics but then having forceful political opinions anyway. That's not having one's strengths in other areas, that's just closed-mindedness.

If someone tries to tell me that Chelsea are better footballers than Manchester United, I don't argue back. I'm well aware that I have no idea which team is stronger; sport is something I'm completely disengaged from. The fact that I once lived near Manchester, and have never lived in Chelsea, doesn't cause me to adopt an attitude devoid of critical thinking.

Peter

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#245630 - 07/01/2005 18:03 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I will have to point out that one of the reasons that I dislike GWB so much is because I disagree with every opinion and platform position that comes out of the man's mouth. I'm certainly not leaning to the right in any way, but that doesn't mean that I don't agree with the occasional Republican position. But somehow I manage to disagree with every Bushian position. (Of course, the condescension with which he presents his opinions just polarizes me that much more.)

There has long been this notion that there are leaders and followers, and -- I don't know -- maybe that was true at some time, but there is a much larger mass of people now that don't fit into those two categories: the free-thinkers. They don't follow, but they don't lead, either, except maybe by example and rant. Most of us here who participate in these discussions, I think, fall in that category. And it makes me furious to see people who just want to follow. (Oftentimes even when what they've chosen to follow agrees with what I've reasoned.)

To change points, and not to draw too strong a comparison, my mother can be one of those people, despite being a Democrat. She however, doesn't really see the harm in stuff like the PATRIOT Act. She's of the notion that she doesn't have anything to worry about. Compare that to Martin Niemoller's quote:

Quote:
First, they came for the labor unions but I wasn't a labor unionist, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Communists but I wasn't a Communist, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Jews; but I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak up.

and I start to wonder how innocuous that first step might have seemed to some people. I always assumed that he meant that they came around and rounded up the unionists, but maybe it was presented in the same way the PATRIOT Act is presented. Maybe it wasn't "I'm not going to say anything in order to save myself," as I always assumed, but more "I don't really see anything wrong with that; they're just protecting me from the bad people."

Again, I'm not trying to equate the Bush administration with the Nazi party, but there are some parallels I see.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#245631 - 07/01/2005 18:15 Re: Rant [Re: wfaulk]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
Bitt,
Quote:
And it makes me furious to see people who just want to follow. (Oftentimes even when what they've chosen to follow agrees with what I've reasoned.)


I can't help but think of the balcony scene from 'The Life of Brian':

Quote:

MANDY:
All right. Here he is, then. Come on, Brian. Come and talk to them.
BRIAN:
But, Mum. Judith.
MANDY:
Now, leave that Welsh tart alone.
BRIAN:
But I don't really want to, Mum.
FOLLOWERS:
Brian! Brian! Brian!...
BRIAN:
Good morning.
FOLLOWERS:
A blessing! A blessing! A blessing!...
BRIAN:
No. No, please! Please! Please listen. I've got one or two things to say.
FOLLOWERS:
Tell us. Tell us both of them.
BRIAN:
Look. You've got it all wrong.
You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!
FOLLOWERS:
Yes, we're all individuals!
BRIAN:
You're all different!
FOLLOWERS:
Yes, we are all different!
DENNIS:
I'm not.
ARTHUR:
Shhhh.
FOLLOWERS:
Shh. Shhhh. Shhh.
BRIAN:
You've all got to work it out for yourselves!
FOLLOWERS:
Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves!
BRIAN:
Exactly!
FOLLOWERS:
Tell us more!
BRIAN:
No! That's the point! Don't let anyone tell you what to do! Otherwise-- Ow! No!
MANDY:
Come on, Brian. That's enough. That's enough.


Thanks to The Unofficial Monty Python Home Page.
_________________________
WWFSMD?

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#245632 - 07/01/2005 18:17 Re: Rant [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
I'm not trying to equate the Bush administration with the Nazi party, but there are some parallels I see.
FWIW, I think you made that very clear. With any government intervention there is always the question of "is the government overstepping its bounds." Interestingly enough, Republicans and Democrats both alledge this, but for different things. And often, the complete disconnect between liberal and conservative thinking leads one to believe the other isn't thinking at all. That's sad, but I've seen it over and over again. Usually it's the "followers" who make the accusation, though sometimes it comes from the other two groups (I agree with your groupings, BTW, though even "free thinking" is rooted in notions picked up by first "following").

What I cannot do (or actually, what I TRY not to do) is look at the group of "followers" and see them as lesser human beings, which seems to be what a lot of the "free thinking" crowd does. Perhaps I was just reading too much into the rant, but that's the sense I was getting. There are many "followers" out there who I'd much rather be like than some of the "free thinkers" or "leaders".

Having said all that, being a follower has it's consequences (as you point out), and they are severe.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245633 - 07/01/2005 18:19 Re: Rant [Re: Ezekiel]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
DENNIS:
I'm not.

My favorite line in the whole movie.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245634 - 07/01/2005 18:25 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a follower, as long as you've put enough thought into choosing what to follow. But to blindly follow and then vehemently support your leader to the point of pretending to be a minor leader or influencer yourself is just absurd and offensive. That truly is the blind leading the blind.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#245635 - 07/01/2005 18:44 Re: Rant [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
But to blindly follow and then vehemently support your leader to the point of pretending to be a minor leader or influencer yourself is just absurd and offensive.
Ok, I'll agree, but what's the solution as 80% of the people I know (if you define "a minor leader" broadly enough to include passionate discourse over the water cooler) fall into this category? Do we just lavish contempt on the majority of the U.S. or is there a source to this problem that's even deeper and can be dealt with? Humans are inherintly self centered, which leads to viewing life through a filter of what's best for our interests. In fact, our Governemnt is set up to harness this rather than combat it. I guess I'm just rabeling a bit here, but I'd like to end up somewhere better than general contempt for just about everyone around me.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245636 - 07/01/2005 19:07 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Quote:
Humans are inherintly self centered, which leads to viewing life through a filter of what's best for our interests.


I agree with you on this, however it is possible to poke holes in that filter sometimes. However what gets me is these types of people will speak out against THEIR OWN interests and benefits, as well as vote against them, because someone higher up in their social chain has told them this is what is right, and they go along with it without question. This is what really gives me the desire to beat my head into the wall out of frustration.
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#245637 - 07/01/2005 19:09 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Honestly, I've become somewhat enamored of general contempt. It seems to fit the world fairly well.

On the other hand, is it discourse? Or just dualing monologues? If it's discourse, then there's nothing to be resolved. One may be entrenched, even both, but that doesn't mean that they're not having a viable dialogue. It's just non-productive. We engage in that all the time, it seems. If it's two people spouting party lines, I don't know what response you can have besides contempt. Or simple avoidance.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#245638 - 07/01/2005 19:32 Re: Rant [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Honestly, I've become somewhat enamored of general contempt. It seems to fit the world fairly well.
The world may deserve contempt, but I try not to be the one to give it. I do my best to hold no one in contempt or judge another human being as lesser than myself. I suppose that's the core reason I didn't go along with this article; his contempt is clear.

I just better make sure that while disagreeing with his words I don't show contempt for the author
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245639 - 07/01/2005 19:44 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
I don't think there's anything wrong with contempt. If you don't hold things in contempt (even incredibly stupid things like 'Evolution is a lie') then you're forced into the position that all statements must be weighed equally when really all statements must be given the weight they deserve (which is often times none).

Quote:
I do my best to hold no one in contempt or judge another human being as lesser than myself


If they blindly follow bad ideas, why not contempt them, ridicule the bad ideas they espouse? If people don't call shenanigans on bad ideas and blind loyalty, that's when things get really out of hand.

-Zeke


Edited by Ezekiel (07/01/2005 19:46)
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WWFSMD?

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#245640 - 07/01/2005 19:59 Re: Rant [Re: Ezekiel]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
If they blindly follow bad ideas, why not contempt them and ridicule the bad ideas they espouse

As you well know, I'm generally pretty forthcoming any with disagreements I have, and I do try to encourage people to think clearly and question notions with which I disagree. Often people disregard these efforts, but I'm always chipping away whether I make progress or not.

However, that's different from having contempt for a person. Who am I to look down on another person, especially for failing to correctly grasp the complexity of politics?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245641 - 07/01/2005 20:18 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Who am I to look down on another person, especially for failing to correctly grasp the complexity of politics?


I think, though, that you're kind of fudging in their favor, there. The people currently under discussion do not "fail to correctly grasp the complexity of politics". They simply refuse to think for themselves.

If someone tells me "George W. Bush is making the world safer", and I ask them how they came to that conclusion, I expect something better than "Because he's fighting terrorism." or a description of the story they saw on Fox News last night.

Complexity is an excuse for misunderstanding tax codes, not for when you simply refuse to be well informed before spouting off with your opinion.

That said, I have to say that the original rant elicited more of a "And this suprises you why?" kind of reaction from me.
_________________________
Dave

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#245642 - 07/01/2005 20:20 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I'll also note that religion often encourages (or attracts those with) sheeplike behavior, especially the style of Christianity I most often see. Of course, it's not restricted to Christianity or religtion by any means, nor are all Christians or all religious people sheep. But the sheep that do exist in religion seem to be very vocal in their parroting (to mix metaphors). Some even fly planes into buildings.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#245643 - 07/01/2005 21:00 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
Quote:
I do try to encourage people to think


And when they refuse to even try then they deserve contempt for intellecutual laziness (unless of course they're truly mentally challenged in the clinical sense). I'm convinced that thinking causes most people actual pain, and so they avoid it whenever possible.

-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?

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#245644 - 07/01/2005 21:10 Re: Rant [Re: Ezekiel]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
An old one, but a good one...


Attachments
245135-thinkers.txt (221 downloads)

_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#245645 - 07/01/2005 21:33 Re: Rant [Re: pgrzelak]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Perfect timing, Paul
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245646 - 08/01/2005 00:55 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
his contempt is clear

Jeff, his dispair is clear. He tried again and again to make supposedly intelligent beings use their mind in order to stop pushing his and their country towards abyss, and all he got was lines from Ministry of Truth.

I felt similar dispair several years ago, trying to make some people around me stop and think a moment about their folowing religiously the nutcase that was our first President (although a puppet of much more sinister folk, much like Bush is, but, unlike Bush, with some real accomplishments, not the least of them was independence). It is over now for almost five years, luckily.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#245647 - 08/01/2005 01:24 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
And anything I said supportive of Bush here, well we know how that went.

Are you quite sure you are being fair here? Much as I and many people here dislike Bush, I don't think out negative assessments were not argued reasonably well.

In my own country, I freely admit that our current prime minister is doing his job very well and is probably the most competent politician we have, despite being from the same party as out first president, who was almost as bad as Bush, and whose party is ideologically almost diametrically opposite to my own standing.

Quote:
And I should note further that this isn’t just limited to politics. Yes it’s easy to lament people who live out lives from a misguided, uneducated political perspective, but I lament even more those who aren’t addressing the spiritual issues. I see faith as being far more important than politics, and far more glossed over by those who get irritated by others glossing over politics.

With all due respect, Jeff, for me the term 'spiritual issues' has no meaning. Your faith is between you and your God. I have no right to judge your perception of it, but I see no reason to follow your example here. I understand that you might be compelled to try and change my 'spiritual situation', and don't resent it. However, my 'godlessness', as Bitt put it, harms nobody (except perhaps myself, as you might think). Hordes of unthinking followers of whoever happens to fill they need for The Leader harms everybody and everything.

Quote:
Critical thinking and correct political ideas don’t mean anything to a starving person who’s being fed in a soup kitchen- lived out compassion and love does.

Critical thinking and good political ideas might lower the number of people needing soup kitchens. Feeding the hungry while helping making their numbers swell only falsely calms one's conscience.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#245648 - 08/01/2005 02:53 Sorry to hijack the thread [Re: tfabris]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
But I think this makes good supplementary reading to the rant.

It's a good opinion piece on what exactly is wrong with people like the church ladies, and how they got that way.
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#245649 - 08/01/2005 02:56 Re: Rant [Re: bonzi]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Quote:
Feeding the hungry while helping making their numbers swell only falsely calms one's conscience.


But it's the calm conscience that these people are after. Reminds me of junkies and the junkie line of reasoning and behavior, just a different fix.
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#245650 - 08/01/2005 03:33 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
However, that's different from having contempt for a person. Who am I to look down on another person, especially for failing to correctly grasp the complexity of politics?


I have contempt for lots of people. On the other hand, I'm under no delusion that I'm better than them; Knowing myself intimately, I'm actually more certain of the opposite. That's what makes the mocking come all the more easily.

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#245651 - 08/01/2005 03:40 Re: Rant [Re: bonzi]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Are you quite sure you are being fair here? Much as I and many people here dislike Bush, I don't think out negative assessments were not argued reasonably well.
Actually, I did wish later I hadn't written that statement that way. I don't think anything I've said here about Bush was ever really argued against in a non-well reasoned way. However, there were a few anti-Bush arguments where I just couldn't believe the arguments being used. To me it seemed people had assessed Bush as "Evil" and then used that assessment to interpret anything he did. Not that I haven't done the same. We all do it sometimes, and I'm not going to rehash any specifics. My point is that we all have moments of unobjectivity.

Quote:
With all due respect, Jeff, for me the term 'spiritual issues' has no meaning. Your faith is between you and your God. I have no right to judge your perception of it, but I see no reason to follow your example here. I understand that you might be compelled to try and change my 'spiritual situation', and don't resent it. However, my 'godlessness', as Bitt put it, harms nobody (except perhaps myself, as you might think). Hordes of unthinking followers of whoever happens to fill they need for The Leader harms everybody and everything.
Admittedly, I changed topics slightly, but I think the point is important. We have a bunch of people not really fully engaging in the type of critical thinking that we think is important. To a lot of them, critical thinking isn't important- they know what they believe and will vote for the candidate who best seems to represent those things. The lament is that those people may not be getting what they really want because they aren't engaging the way they should, not to mention these actions affect others and what they want. Still, it's almost impossible to convince them of this because they don't want to be told what to think or believe. In reality, no one likes to be told what to think or believe. But I see a lot of people who are animate about critical thinking not engage in questions of a spiritual nature. For some this is due to a reasoned non-belief in organized religion. That I understand. However, there are so many others who've simply checked out of the whole question altogether- "I can't figure it out so it can't be that important". This to me is the same comfortable ignorance that is displayed by the non-critical political group and the results are (in my mind) even more devastating. While I believe there are societal ramifications of collective non-belief, I'll grant you the point that the non-critical thinking approach to politics has a more direct and easily notable effect on others. Still, if we are to challenge others to think about things they don’t want to, we must be willing to do the same about things we don’t think are important. Note that I’m not throwing this out as an accusation of this BBS. We’ve definitely engaged in these issues and many of you have very aggressively questioned these matters. I’ve met many more who aren’t.

Quote:
Critical thinking and good political ideas might lower the number of people needing soup kitchens. Feeding the hungry while helping making their numbers swell only falsely calms one's conscience.
I think this is unfair. Yes there are those who do the work to ease their conscious, but that's a broad brush to use. Critical thinking can help those in need, but it can also fail them. Social programs can hurt situations if not executed well, so they can't be viewed as the only solution. Perhaps the long term war might be won through critical thinking, but for many the battle is important too. Sometimes the compassion of an individual reaching to another individual can help in ways a social program never can. Those in need must been seen both as a group and as individuals, and the best way to reach an individual is with a personal, non obligated touch.

And if you want to say that a person working a soup kitchen is insincere because he or she is working for the gratification of helping a fellow human in need, what is the motivation behind the critical thinking social programs if not to do exactly that?

I fear for what our society would be if we had only critical thinking without true, compassionate love. Likewise, true compassionate love without critical thinking is also a mess. We should never eschew one fore the other (insert "Hemispheres" by Rush here). Unfortunately, most people I know have a tendency one way or the other, and that simply isn't good enough. Who I aspire to be is a well-reasoned, loving and caring individual full of passion for helping my fellow man. I’m definitely not there yet, but that’s what I’m shooting for.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#245652 - 08/01/2005 05:02 Re: Rant [Re: wfaulk]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
But the sheep that do exist in religion seem to be very vocal in their parroting (to mix metaphors)



tanstaafl.
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#245653 - 08/01/2005 06:02 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
Actually, I did wish later I hadn't written that statement that way. I don't think anything I've said here about Bush was ever really argued against in a non-well reasoned way. However, there were a few anti-Bush arguments where I just couldn't believe the arguments being used. To me it seemed people had assessed Bush as "Evil" and then used that assessment to interpret anything he did.


This happens on all sides. Someone (I don't remember who and I'm not going to look, because it doesn't really matter) wondered what I thought we should do given that the UN "was never going to let us attack Iraq" and the answer seemed so obvious to me that to this day I can't believe it wasn't considered regardless of the fact that I've just told you I've forgotten any other details of the discussion.

I assume you can guess my answer, and I try to make a habit of not repeating myself, so I won't

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#245654 - 08/01/2005 07:50 Re: Rant [Re: JeffS]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
My point is that we all have moments of unobjectivity.

Of course we do. But we were not talking about moments, but lifetimes...

Quote:
Still, if we are to challenge others to think about things they don’t want to, we must be willing to do the same about things we don’t think are important.

Well, the guy's frustration was about thinking in general, I would say. I guess those ladies are similarily non-critical about their choice of laundry detergent. OTOH, perhaps they are experts on laundry detergents, and just need The Leader in important areas where they (probably wrongly) feel out of their depth.

But I will limit my attempts to make others think to things that affect me (except in extreme cases of those closest to me, but that again boils down to affecting me, this time emotionally). I think that is more sincere criterion than judging what is important to them. Besides, if I were not restricting myself to that and, for example, start to dwell on 'spiritual area', I would start attempting to make, say, you or my younger brother stop investing so much time emotional energy in what I see as figments of yout imagination. That would be just rude.

Quote:
Those in need must been seen both as a group and as individuals, and the best way to reach an individual is with a personal, non obligated touch.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: of course I am thankful there are people helping those in need directly. What I was saying is that this is not enough. If you help ten people directly, and contribute to making another thousand need help, you are not very helpful, on the balance. I would think those ladling out soup and arranging collapsible beds in a school gym will be first to think "what to do to change this?"...

That said, on a brighter note, balance might sometimes tilt the other way: I saw another day a segment on CNN on a bunch of Southern Baptist guys (whose political inclination I could only guess, but the guess would probably be in the ballpark ) intervening quickly, efficiently and with no much fuss to provide some of tsunami survivors with safe water. I would postpone political discussion with them untill they are done with their work.

Quote:
And if you want to say that a person working a soup kitchen is insincere because he or she is working for the gratification of helping a fellow human in need, what is the motivation behind the critical thinking social programs if not to do exactly that?

Of course I am not saying that. If I was, it would mean I thought all altruistic deeds are done just for self-gratification. (Well, it can be argued they are, but, as you noted, it just changes the label we stick to the word 'good', so to speak, and applies to every 'do-gooder', thus becoming meaningless.)
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