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#253611 - 07/04/2005 11:27 Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
In short, I'm looking for a combined ADSL modem and wired+wireless router with QoS support. I've done some looking around, but I've not found many options, so I'm wondering if anyone here has any suggestions.

To offer a bit more background; my current network is split between two rooms with a wireless link:

In the living room: ADSL modem doing NAT -> Hub -> Airport in WDS mode
In the office: Airport -> Switch -> Two VoIP routers

Because I have VoIP routers at the end of the network, there are issues with the sound breaking up when I'm using the net elsewhere in the house.

I would like to replace the ADSL modem, hub and Airport with a single box. Because of the VoIP, I need it to support QoS and because there is no wire between the living room and the office, I need it to work as a WDS to the Airport in the office. It also needs wired ports so I can plug in the TiVo.

Anyone got any suggestions? Am I asking too much?

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#253612 - 08/04/2005 02:55 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
image
old hand

Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Do you really need the ADSL modem to have QoS? If you can live with two units, keep your current one and turn off NAT, get rid of the AirPort, buy a WRT54G, flash it w/ DD-WRT (sveasoft fork w/ no the GPL trickery), and setup QoS and WDS.

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#253613 - 08/04/2005 09:59 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
SonicSnoop
addict

Registered: 29/06/2002
Posts: 531
Loc: Triangle, VA
you could also get a usb wireless nic for the tivo
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#253614 - 08/04/2005 10:24 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: image]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
I had considered using a Linksys box with the Sveasoft firmware and that would also be a cheaper option, but I'd like to be able to have just one box if possible.

The only product I've found that comes close to doing what I want is the ZyXEL Prestige 660HW which has everything but WDS support, so I'd need to replace the airport in the office with a regular wireless-to-ethernet bridge. I've not had any experience of ZyXEL kit before - does anyone have any experience of using any of their products? From reading over the incredibly detailed manual it seems to have a very high spec for a £50 router.

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#253615 - 08/04/2005 10:33 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: SonicSnoop]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
It's a series 1 UK TiVo with a TurboNet card, so I'd need an Ethernet bridge or to put a wireless TurboNet card in.

If I had a phone line in the office I'd not have a problem and I would put the TiVo on wireless. Unfortunately as is common with most UK homes, there's only one phone socket provided in the most inconvenient location possible, in my case it's behind the TV. I can't run a cable for a new phone socket as this is a rented house.

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#253616 - 08/04/2005 10:35 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
time
enthusiast

Registered: 20/11/2000
Posts: 279
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Verizon just recently set a friend up with a Westell Versalink 327W which is a modem/fw/wifi/switch and under the Advanced Wireless setting there is a QoS configuration. Perhaps that would work for you?

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#253617 - 08/04/2005 11:01 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: time]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
Found their website and at first look they seem to have what I'm looking for. Don't appear to be available in the UK as far as I can see though. Will look into them more later on. Thanks for the tip.

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#253618 - 08/04/2005 11:58 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: image]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
Quote:
buy a WRT54G, flash it w/ DD-WRT (sveasoft fork w/ no the GPL trickery), and setup QoS


Thanks, you just unwittingly made the solution to a problem I have easier.
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#253619 - 11/04/2005 13:29 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Quote:
ZyXEL Prestige 660HW
[...]
I've not had any experience of ZyXEL kit before - does anyone have any experience of using any of their products? From reading over the incredibly detailed manual it seems to have a very high spec for a £50 router.


I have it, and in terms of features it is excellent. However, it seems that the CPU is not as powerful as it should. Expecially when operating with wireless, the CPU load raises way too much, and rarely the router resets and reboots. Rarely is too frequently, though. Also, it keeps losing MAC addresses from the authentication list, which is very unfortunate.
I think this could very well be more of a firmware problem that a hardware one, but no newer firmware is available at the moment.

Generally speaking, I've had other Zyxel devices and they've always been super reliable. The Prestige 630 I just replaced simply NEVER went down in 5 years, always on. I have to say I am disappointed with the CPU issue of this one.
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#253620 - 13/04/2005 07:49 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: Taym]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
Quote:
...the router resets and reboots. Rarely is too frequently, though. Also, it keeps losing MAC addresses from the authentication list, which is very unfortunate. I think this could very well be more of a firmware problem that a hardware one, but no newer firmware is available at the moment.


I did some searching and only found mention of problems with the router continually resetting, which is fixed by a firmware upgrade - your experience may suggest that even with that upgrade there may be issues. No mention of MAC addresses being lost anywhere, but I've now got doubt in my mind about it, so I've looked higher up the price range.

I've been looking at the DrayTek 2600G (£127) and Billion BiPAC 7500GL (£95) models. DrayTek seems to come highly recommended, but I've no experience of Billion - anyone got any opinions on any of these?

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#253621 - 13/04/2005 08:21 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I do tend to see problems with the Draytek's and long lines, so if you live out in the sticks miles and miles away from the exchange (5.5km+) I would give it a miss. Although I have never had an intermittant fault on one, so it looks like when it does snc it stays in sync.

I remember Draytek did those hrrid devices that you could plug our BT USB modem into to make it into a router, I hope they have come along way since those early days.

Can't say I have ever seen a Billion modem/router out in the field. Looks nice though

ZyXEL - Shudder

Cheers

Cris.

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#253622 - 13/04/2005 09:25 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: Cris]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
Quote:
I do tend to see problems with the Draytek's and long lines, so if you live out in the sticks miles and miles away from the exchange (5.5km+) I would give it a miss


I'm in Milton Keynes, a 30-year old town with possibly the worst broadband provision in the country. I'm already at the edges of BT's ADSL service, but I'm using a no-brand Conexant ADSL modem with no problems at the moment. I'll put the DrayTek at the bottom of the list.

Why the shudder for ZyXEL?

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#253623 - 13/04/2005 11:56 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
I'm in Milton Keynes, a 30-year old town with possibly the worst broadband provision in the country.


Probably just the age to have lots of nasty aluminium lines.
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#253624 - 13/04/2005 12:51 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: andy]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
Quote:
Probably just the age to have lots of nasty aluminium lines.


Yep, there's a lot of aluminium lines in the older parts and there's also a lot of fibre in one or two of the estates built in the early 90s when ISDN was the future. They've been putting copper in to work alongside it where they can.

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#253625 - 13/04/2005 15:15 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: David]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:
Why the shudder for ZyXEL?


Dunno, just a nasty feeling I get when I see one. Cheap and nasty things, maybe it's just the people who buy them that make me shudder

Ah! MK! I'll keep quiet, I know there are lots of BT haters in the MK community so I wouldn't want one of their spys dobbing me in.

As I understand it most of the nextwork is TPON (fiber to the cab and copper for the last 1km or so) I think the main problem is they can't get the DSL DSLAM's small ehough to feed all 300+ customers off one cab, if they could MK would be the best place in England for broadband as everyone could have 8Mbps+.

If you buy the Draytek make sure you can return it easily if it doesn't work, it is probably a good router, it is just I have seen quite a few of them, and in my line of work you get worried if you see more than a couple of brands more than once causing problems. Could be in my head I suppose.

Ali cable! BT Network! Still there! Dunno what you are on about Guv

Cheers

Cris.

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#253626 - 14/04/2005 08:51 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
That reminds me, must replenish my stock of EN5861 PSUs again, only one spare one for my two routers at the moment...
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#253627 - 14/04/2005 13:33 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: andy]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Something has gotta keep me in work you know

BTW - Do you rent those from BT?

Cheers

Cris.

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#253628 - 14/04/2005 16:38 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
BTW - Do you rent those from BT?



Erm...

One of them was mine as rented from BT, the other I bought from a friend. I know they both still belong to BT, but no one has ever asked for them back. In fact everyone I know that ended an engineer installed service ended up with the router for the same reason (I've replaced a few PSUs for people).

In fact, I had a BT engineer here today to look at a line fault. He spotted the router and asked "one of ours ?", so I said "kind of...".

He came out to look at a fault that results in loss of sync 2-10 times a week on one of my two lines. After monitoring the faulty line for less than an hour his conclusion was "CPE kit fault" (i.e. my router), typical. I guess I'm now going to have to swap the config over on the two routers to prove that the fault still occurs with different CPE kit.

Do the DSLAMs not have the capability to monitor a line themselves over a prolonged period ?
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#253629 - 14/04/2005 18:37 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: andy]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:
In fact, I had a BT engineer here today to look at a line fault. He spotted the router and asked "one of ours ?", so I said "kind of...".


Good job for you it wasn't me who came then. I recover our Routers back from ex-rental customers almost daily, leaving them with service or not. It comes under the classification of "UNLUCKY" in my book You want a BT router, you pay to rent it, no rent no router! Your SP has a duty to BT to return that router to us, even if the SP is BT in the first place I still take em

Quote:
..monitoring the faulty line for less than an hour his conclusion was "CPE kit fault"


That is what I would have said, remember our kit is looking at ATM packets, not IP, I have a max testing time of 15 minutes in my testing method. If there are 0 errors in that time experience tells me I am not going to find a fault in the field so I am wasting not only your time but mine as well. Can you imagine how long it will take to find a fault in several km's of network if I have to wait a few hours to see the fault once, then move to the next point and start the test again. This is assuming all the copper tests are 100%.

This may seem harsh, but I've been doing this for 5 years now, I know a line fault when I see one, and if you had seen some of the places I have fitted it, on lines that you would never believe could take broadband, you would start to agree ADSL is a very robust product that works around most minor line fault issues. 2 - 10 a week could be a line card being reset to prove another fault etc... How long does it loose sync for ??? At any fixed time of the day or random ???

Quote:
Do the DSLAMs not have the capability to monitor a line themselves over a prolonged period ?


Some do, but we don't use it as it is hard to tell what the customer has done to his modem during the test period, ie turned the power off. Our standard Woosh system looks at errors over a 15 minute window, but it is not 100% as a test. I'm not sure but I think the offical line of CRC's is about 150 in out 2 minute test period, personally I work to about 50

Cheers

Cris.

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#253630 - 14/04/2005 20:44 Re: Looking for an ADSL modem and wireless router with QoS [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I had a BT engineer here today to look at a line fault. He spotted the router and asked "one of ours ?", so I said "kind of...".

Good job for you it wasn't me who came then. I recover our Routers back from ex-rental customers almost daily, leaving them with service or not. It comes under the classification of "UNLUCKY" in my book You want a BT router, you pay to rent it, no rent no router! Your SP has a duty to BT to return that router to us, even if the SP is BT in the first place I still take em



Fair enough, but no one has ever asked me or anyone else I know for the router back. I also know of two people who has BT engineers try to sell them EN5861s...

Quote:

Quote:
..monitoring the faulty line for less than an hour his conclusion was "CPE kit fault"


That is what I would have said, remember our kit is looking at ATM packets, not IP, I have a max testing time of 15 minutes in my testing method. If there are 0 errors in that time experience tells me I am not going to find a fault in the field so I am wasting not only your time but mine as well. Can you imagine how long it will take to find a fault in several km's of network if I have to wait a few hours to see the fault once, then move to the next point and start the test again. This is assuming all the copper tests are 100%.



My point wasn't so much that he only tested the line for an hour, more like I was surprised he had no way of tagging the line to be monitored over a longer period. If you have an intermittant line fault that only happens a few times a week then if you can't monitor for it then it is a pain in the arse for the customer.

I know this because when my first line was installed 4+ years ago I had intermittant sync loss problems and I spent a hell of a lot of time off work waiting for the engineers to diagnose the problem (I think it took 6 visits over a couple of weeks). The line would lose sync many times a day, but never when there was an engineer on site. Turned out in the end to be a lose connection in the cabinet at the end of the road being set off every time a big truck drove by...

At that point my router was still rented from BT, none of the engineers suggested the problem could be my CPE kit that time

I have generally been very happy with the robustness of ADSL, I just know that these intermittant faults can get worse. When my other intermittant fault started it only caused a few seconds of outage at a time, by the end it was causing an hour or so every time it went out.

Quote:
2 - 10 a week could be a line card being reset to prove another fault etc... How long does it loose sync for ??? At any fixed time of the day or random ???



It has been going on for quite a while now. It first started last November. At that point I would lose my PPP connection half a dozen times a day for a couple of seconds at a time. They started looking into it, but then it stopped happening after a few weeks (they didn't fix anything).

In February is started happening again, loss of PPP connection a couple of times a day. Two weeks ago they decided they knew what the problem was and they made a change of some sort on the card/DSLAM (a change that caused it to lose sync for a while).

Since then I don't get the PPP connection failing, but I am now getting loss of sync a couple of times a day every couple of days.

The times it happens appear to be random, it can be during the day or in the early hours. Most of the time the loss of service is only for a few seconds while everything gets restablished, occasionally it is 15-20 minutes though.

As sods law dictates, there was actually a sync loss event happening as the engineer was ringing on my door bell today, but of course 2 minutes later when he had his kit plugged in it was back up.

Quote:
Our standard Woosh system looks at errors over a 15 minute window, but it is not 100% as a test. I'm not sure but I think the offical line of CRC's is about 150 in out 2 minute test period, personally I work to about 50



The other annoying thing about the EN5861s (which I otherwise like) is that even with the fireware replaced with the "proper" factory firmware they still don't report line conditions, CRCs etc

P.S. I am happy to swap over the routers so that we can rule out the CPE kit, I'm just surprised there isn't a long term monitoring option that gets used

P.P.S. do you know anything about this "long grass" issue that is appearing ? One of my ISPs does pro-active monitoring of their customers lines, by pinging their routers once a second. It has uncovered a roll out of new kit/setup that is causing people to get regular 100ms latency for a couple of packets every 60 seconds or so. The way it goes is a bunch of people on an exchange get loss of sync at 3am one morning, next day they suddenly all have the 100ms latency issue (which causes things like VOIP problems).

I wish more ISPs would take such an approach. They often log faults on lines before the customers have even realised something has gone wrong. I expect BT Wholesale hate them...

It is called the "long grass" issue because when the problem kicks in it suddenly looks like someone has forgotten to cut the grass on the ping timing graphs.
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