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#290482 - 29/11/2006 07:57 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
Just because you point out someone's race, it doesn't make you a racist. Here's a great example that illustrates my point perfectly.


Not that I'm calling Richards a racist person, but you have to differenciate (which apparently isn't a word) between using a racial slur as an intentional racial insult and plainly pointing out someone's color.
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#290483 - 29/11/2006 08:08 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
you have to differenciate (which apparently isn't a word) between using a racial slur as an intentional racial insult and plainly pointing out someone's color.


That's because it's "differentiate". The root is "different", not "difference".

Back on topic. I don't think that, in this instance, calling the perp "black" is any worse than (for example) pointing out that he was driving a white pickup truck. We all like to visualise situations as they're described to us; these details mean that our mental picture is more similar to that of the person telling us the story.

Now, if he'd not mentioned the perp's colour, and your mental picture filled in a specific colour, that might be considered to say something...
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-- roger

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#290484 - 29/11/2006 09:04 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Roger]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Thank you.... and good point.
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#290485 - 29/11/2006 11:27 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?
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Matt

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#290486 - 29/11/2006 13:16 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: mlord]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...


Mentioning someone's [sex] (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is [sexual discrimination]. I'm NOT saying you are [sexist]. However, your situation does not warrant a description of [sex]. Height, weight, colour and age perhaps (because it's important if you were to get in a scuffle with him) however, his sex has nothing to do with his abilites to fight you or whatever.


Women have black (err... coloured) belts, too. And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?


Sheesh. What a bunch of politically correct bigots!


You didnt read my post very carefully. Sex, age, weight, height, type of clothing, makes a difference as to how someone had to deal with the person. A 15 year old female 85lbs would be a bit easier to take down than a 22 year old male 230lbs.

I'm not trying to be politcally correct, that has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to take care of the subconscious racial bias that exists.
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//matt

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#290487 - 29/11/2006 19:43 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?

I don't think these questions are comparable to the situation at hand. Right, wrong, moral, immoral and amoral don't always jive with law. We only have to go back to our debate about gay marriage, or abortion, or other similar hot-topics to show that.

The speed limit is one of those things where, depending on the context, it doesn't hurt anyone, and isn't really "wrong", aside from it being "against the law". When I'm in a school zone, I drive at, or below the speed limit. When I was driving home from the Grand Canyon over the weekend, across the desert, I was driving 80+ MPH, along with everyone else. Sure, I was "wrong" according to an arbitrarily set law, but I was also "right" to follow the flow of traffic, since studies have shown it to be a safer way to drive, and I certainly have no moral feelings one way or the other about speed limits.

As to your second question, yes, I stay in my lane, no matter how fast people behind me want to go (unless it's an emergency vehicle, of course), but then I'm one of those people who tries to stay in the right lane unless passing, anyway, so I seldom block speeders in the first place. The times I do block someone, then tough noogies -- flashing your lights, weaving around so I can see you in my mirrors, and tailgating isn't going to help your cause. It's my lane, and I'll move over when I'm ready to. Funnily enough, there have been a few times where I've had a tailgater moron behind me in such a hurry to pass me (while I'm passing someone else), that, as soon as they have space to squeak around, they attempt to pass on the right, only to have me cut them off as I change back into the lane I'm supposed to be in.

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#290488 - 29/11/2006 20:03 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: canuckInOR]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
The speed limit is one of those things where, depending on the context, it doesn't hurt anyone, and isn't really "wrong", aside from it being "against the law".

You say that the speed limit on your highway drive was arbitrary, but you follow the limit signs in a school zone? That, IMO, is also arbitrary. Is it just that the second situation has more apparent reasoning for the limit (school children) than the first might (road curvature, banking, possible rain conditions etc)?

I understand your points about the law not necessarily fitting into the argument, but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was more interested in whether you forced your opinion on others, as that seems to be what is going on in this thread with a couple of people.

I should have been more specific. If you're not in the passing lane, I don't see much problem with sticking your ground. I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."


Edited by Dignan (29/11/2006 20:05)
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#290489 - 29/11/2006 20:31 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."


I want to punch that guy and all his friends in the face. =p
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#290490 - 29/11/2006 20:36 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?


Since canuckInLA already very eloquently explained what I see as the difference between "right / wrong" and "lawful / unlawful", I'll skip that part and merely say "No" and "No."
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Dave

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#290491 - 29/11/2006 23:38 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?


There's a difference between right/wrong and legal/illegal. For instance, in the wonderful world of Islam, under Sharia Law, it's perfectly legal to kill a "non-human" (eg., a non-muslim) as long as you pay a small fine ("blood money") to the victim's family.

Just because it's legal, it doesn't mean it's right.

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#290492 - 29/11/2006 23:53 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

You didnt read my post very carefully. Sex, age, weight, height, type of clothing, makes a difference as to how someone had to deal with the person. A 15 year old female 85lbs would be a bit easier to take down than a 22 year old male 230lbs.

I'm not trying to be politcally correct, that has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to take care of the subconscious racial bias that exists.


No offense, mate, but you are being politically correct. You're a victim of the thought police, aka Newspeak ala 1984. If you can control what people can say, then you can control what they can think. But banishing certain words or concepts that describe a perceived problem does not make that problem go away.

Here's a tidbit of factual info for you. Whites make up something like 80% of the US population, but they are responsible for only about 15% of the crime in the US. The rest of the slack is taken up mostly by blacks. Blacks are more likely to rob and assault you than whites, based on historical crime statistics in the US. So yes, mentioning that the POS thief was black is relevant.

And to me, getting rid of crime is more important than getting rid of a "subconscious racial bias". And in order to get rid of crime, you have to look at who is responsible for the bulk of it. Besides, if a certain group of individuals didn't commit a largely disproportionate amount of crime than everyone else, then there wouldn't be any "subconscious racial bias". And it's not just subconscious -- it's based on fucking facts.

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#290493 - 29/11/2006 23:55 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Quote:
I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."

I want to punch that guy and all his friends in the face. =p

Yeah, it was pretty hilarious. Due to my age, I had to have a parent with me, and my dad was sitting through this lesson* snickering the whole time.

Plus, the guy's name was Sam Hill. I had a lot of fun with that. "What in Sam Hill is he talking about?"

*his lesson included diagrams, like a shot of a four lane highway with cars side-by-side in each lane, all going 55. I would love to see that on an actual highway.
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Matt

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#290494 - 30/11/2006 02:38 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Not to threadjack, but I was noticing something the other day. I'm originally from Pensacola, and I learned to drive there. While living in P'cola, when an emergency vehicle was approaching from behind, everyone pulled OFF the road and stopped. If it was a road with no median, BOTH LANES pulled over and stopped. After the emergency vehicle passed, people got back on the road in exactly the same order they got off in and continued about their merry way.

In New Orleans, you're lucky if people clear a way in just one lane for the emergency vehicle to pass. The don't even stop moving. God forbid you pull off the side of the road. It may be 10 minutes before someone lets you back on again.

It seems to me that if everyone assumed the ambulance was going to fetch their mother or that the fire engine was going to put out their house, that may influence them to behave differently. Apparently that has never entered the minds of New Orlenians.

I guess my question is, what is the behavior like where you live? Perhaps I can figure out if it's a regional thing, or an urban vs smaller town thing.

As a side note, the same is true of a funeral procession. In FL, both sides of the road pulled out of the way and stopped for the 20 seconds it took for the processional to pass, just out of respect for the family of the deceased. Here, they just flow with traffic along with everyone else, unless they hire a police escort, which kindof enforces the matter.

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#290495 - 30/11/2006 02:38 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Quote:
Quote:
I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."


I want to punch that guy and all his friends in the face. =p

+1

In California the signs say "Slower traffic keep right". Since nobody ever considers themselves to be 'less than' anyone else insofar as driving is concerned, few people actually drive in the lane they're supposed to.

I really want those words to be changed to "Keep right except to pass". That's what the signs say in Nevada. It's much more direct and doesn't require you to compare yourself with others. Besides, if everyone *behind* you is limited to your speed, you're not actually *slower* than they are! Grrrr.

Please, let's not start on traffic etiquette!
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#290496 - 30/11/2006 02:48 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Robotic]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Every time I hear about traffic ettiquite, I think of This.

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#290497 - 30/11/2006 10:27 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: lectric]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I guess my question is, what is the behavior like where you live? Perhaps I can figure out if it's a regional thing, or an urban vs smaller town thing.


It's pretty much as you describe. It's not regional, it's not a urban vs. small town thing, it's simply a matter of people only being concerned for themselves, with no concern for the rest of the people in their community. So don't worry about thread-jacking, since that is exactly the problem that caused this thread.
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Dave

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#290498 - 30/11/2006 11:47 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: lectric]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Not to threadjack, but I was noticing something the other day.

I'll take some of the blame for the tangent

As crazy as northern Virginians drive, they do pull over to let emergency vehicles pass. Always.

Now that you mention it, I don't remember the last time I saw a funeral procession...
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Matt

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#290499 - 30/11/2006 23:03 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
The bad thing is... I have stopped pulling over for emergency vehicles, and I feel guilty every time. If I do try to pull off, people just blow my doors off as they pass by.

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#290500 - 01/12/2006 08:25 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: lectric]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
I guess my question is, what is the behavior like where you live? Perhaps I can figure out if it's a regional thing, or an urban vs smaller town thing.


In London, everybody seems really good at getting out of the way of emergency vehicles -- when they can, obviously.

However, I did once see a policeman have to get out of a police van (lights flashing, siren wailing) to tell someone to move their car forward into a junction (against a red light), so that the van could get past.

The other week, I was driving on the motorway when I saw an ambulance in the distance in the rear view mirror. I mentioned to the wife that I'd pull out of his way when he caught up with me. He didn't
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#290501 - 01/12/2006 15:22 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: lectric]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
The bad thing is... I have stopped pulling over for emergency vehicles, and I feel guilty every time. If I do try to pull off, people just blow my doors off as they pass by.


So what? You should still pull over.

I live directly across the street from a hospital, on a six lane divided boulevard (3 on each side). Yesterday I heard an ambulance siren, which is actually odd to hear because the ambulances coming and going from the hospital have some sort of noise respect zone going where they turn their sound off when close to the hospital. I looked out my window to see three cars lined up side by side at the red stop light, and an ambulance directly behind them in the center lane, all lights and sirens blaring, and the driver screaming at the car in front of him over his loud speaker to get the hell out of the way. Utterly amazing. The person didn't even think to move until they were yelled at by the driver... and then slowly crept out of the way. WTF. GET OUT OF THE WAY PEOPLE. I see this kind of crap ALL the time here in SF. It's reaaaly bad. I always think how I could never be an ambulance driver, I'd just end up plowing through jack asses bumpers.
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#290502 - 01/12/2006 16:02 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Quote:
So what? You should still pull over.

Good point. I always considered it as driving with the normal flow of traffic, which around here means NEVER using a blinker, tailgating, and consistently having 3 or so people run every stop light. I should set the example and maybe after 15 years or so, they might get it. The funny , or sad, thing to me is that if people would just realize that if everyone followed the rules, everyone would get to their destination quicker. Things might change, but everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule.

If there is road construction up ahead and the left lane is ending, pull over as soon as you can and the flow of traffic continues. If you do what you WANT to do, you drive as far as you can in the left lane and try to merge over at the last minute, snarling traffic for everyone behind you. While this doesn't directly affect you, the 187 people that did it in front of you certainly affected you.

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#290503 - 01/12/2006 16:53 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: lectric]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14472
Loc: Canada
Quote:
if everyone followed the rules, everyone would get to their destination quicker.


Sadly, that's not universally true. But it definitely applies better in denser traffic areas, where you undoubtedly intended it.

The opposite case is a long highway, with one car religiously going at the limit of (up here) 80kmh. No question I'll pass it going 105kmh.

Cheers

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#290504 - 01/12/2006 17:38 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: mlord]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
10-4 on that. Speed limits were not figured into my statement. I tend to find speed limits faaar too arbitrarily set. I was refering to things such as right of way, stop signs, passing lanes, etc.

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#290505 - 05/12/2006 14:38 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:
Quote:

You didnt read my post very carefully. Sex, age, weight, height, type of clothing, makes a difference as to how someone had to deal with the person. A 15 year old female 85lbs would be a bit easier to take down than a 22 year old male 230lbs.

I'm not trying to be politcally correct, that has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to take care of the subconscious racial bias that exists.


No offense, mate, but you are being politically correct. You're a victim of the thought police, aka Newspeak ala 1984. If you can control what people can say, then you can control what they can think. But banishing certain words or concepts that describe a perceived problem does not make that problem go away.

Here's a tidbit of factual info for you. Whites make up something like 80% of the US population, but they are responsible for only about 15% of the crime in the US. The rest of the slack is taken up mostly by blacks. Blacks are more likely to rob and assault you than whites, based on historical crime statistics in the US. So yes, mentioning that the POS thief was black is relevant.

And to me, getting rid of crime is more important than getting rid of a "subconscious racial bias". And in order to get rid of crime, you have to look at who is responsible for the bulk of it. Besides, if a certain group of individuals didn't commit a largely disproportionate amount of crime than everyone else, then there wouldn't be any "subconscious racial bias". And it's not just subconscious -- it's based on fucking facts.



WOW. Thanks for the REALLY interesting factual information!!!

Do you think that black people commit crimes BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK? Those statistics are total bullshit. POOR, disadvantaged, uneducated people commit the majority of the crimes in this country. Now you may want to ask, WHY are so many blacks living in poor areas in this country? Probably because of ignorant fools like you.
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//matt

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#290506 - 05/12/2006 15:01 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
WOW. Thanks for the REALLY interesting factual information!!!

Do you think that black people commit crimes BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK? Those statistics are total bullshit. POOR, disadvantaged, uneducated people commit the majority of the crimes in this country. Now you may want to ask, WHY are so many blacks living in poor areas in this country? Probably because of ignorant fools like you.

See the Pound Cake Speech. I guess Bill Cosby (a black man) is also a fool.

I don't know if you're trying to be politically correct or if you're just burdened with a tremendous amount of white guilt.

I didn't look for anything to disprove Billy's "statistics," but I think it should be noted that I had to reason to doubt them. I know which neighborhoods to stay away from at night.
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#290507 - 05/12/2006 15:28 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: robricc]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
While I think Bill Cosby is right, it is a predicament of poor people, not black people. It just so happens that a higher percentage of black people are poor. His statements can just as well be applied to poor white trash as it can poor black trash. Not all poor people are trash, but enough are that it casts their neighborhoods in a bad light. You think that most of those people want to live there?

There are a number of black neighborhoods I know to stay away from. There are also a number of white neighborhoods I know to stay away from, too.
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#290508 - 05/12/2006 15:52 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
You think that most of those people want to live there?

I think a lot of them have no problem living there.

Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity. They figure out how to get a Dunkin Donuts, 7-Eleven, or gas station franchises and make something of themselves and future generations.

Take a drive through Spring Valley, NY and you see black guys during all hours of the day on the street corner, drinking out of paper bags, and hanging out in bodegas. I know of no other community of people where such a large number of young males simply don't work.

Yeah, there are bad white neighborhoods, but I can only think of two within 100 miles of me. Every black neighborhood I can think of is considered bad, and not just by me. A glance at any local paper will let you know.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#290509 - 05/12/2006 16:02 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Dignan]
cushman
veteran

Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
Quote:
his lesson included diagrams, like a shot of a four lane highway with cars side-by-side in each lane, all going 55. I would love to see that on an actual highway.

Your wish...
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Mark Cushman

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#290510 - 05/12/2006 16:26 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: robricc]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity.

You think it was free to come here? These people packed up their entire lives to come here, paying for a number of airline tickets, paying enough to get a Dunkin Donuts franchise, enough to buy or rent a building to house it in, etc. If you gave those poor Americans the same amount of money, they'd have the same opportunities.

Just as an example, the Subway franchise seems to be the foreigner franchise of choice down here. This link claims a Subway can be opened for "as little as $87,300", and goes on to comment that "costs are so low". You think those poor families have $87,300 lying around? The Dunkin Donuts franchise web site says "For Dunkin' Donuts store territories, minimum liquid assets is $650-750K and net worth of $1.2 - $1.5million depending on the markets. Some markets require a minimum number of units developed." They certainly don't have that kind of scratch.

Of course, none of this means that there aren't people out there that have no desire to improve themselves. Many of us have the ability to coast along and not be poor, but many don't.
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Bitt Faulk

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#290511 - 05/12/2006 16:29 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
You think those poor families have $87,300 lying around?

They seem to have a lot of credit to buy things they can't afford. Not to mention government programs and various laws in their favor.

How about actually applying that advantage to getting ahead instead of living off the system?
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