#297137 - 22/04/2007 19:54
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Being able to check traffic density before you head out is really useful. Every first world country should have it.
Cameras do a pretty poor job of monitoring overall traffic. They can help focus in on what might be causing it (unreported accident, mass of animals in the highway, whatever), but the traffic systems I have seen here in the US all use road sensors to monitor the speed and number of vehicles passing over them. In LA, they are pretty visible circular cutouts in the pavement where the sensors were placed, always two right in a row, and here in Austin similar square markings reveal where they have been added. It also makes it much easier to get traffic info at a glance, as I can look at a colored highway map of the entire city in a few seconds. The cameras on the major highway in Colorado Springs were pretty worthless, since you had to look at tons of images, and still not have a good picture of your entire commute.
From what I understand, the use of CCTV was started by the Brittish government in the 70s, due to the IRA attacks of the time. And while the system didn't stop the 7/7/05 bombings, it did help to find those that attempted the 21/7/05 bombings. I do have to question why so much surveillance is needed though. One of the many differences between US and UK culture I suppose.
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#297138 - 22/04/2007 20:17
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Being able to check traffic density before you head out is really useful. Every first world country should have it.
From what I understand, the use of CCTV was started by the Brittish government in the 70s, due to the IRA attacks of the time....
I do have to question why so much surveillance is needed though. One of the many differences between US and UK culture I suppose.
Well if certain "anti-terrorist" countries hadn't funded the IRA... [funny, that's gone quiet since 11/9]
So basically it's *your* fault - gee, thanks guys.
Still, the UK over-reacts by putting up traffic cameras, the US locks people in prison without trials for 'having a funny beard' and generally abandons any pretence at 'liberty'.
And I'm not sure I'd class it as surveillance (yet).
My wife had a crash at a roundabout last year and we tried to get the traffic camera tapes (yes, tapes - we think).
They (the local council) seemed to be helpful but they only kept them for 7 days. Not exactly Echelon.
Anyhow, lets just give up the whole UK vs US thing.
I mean, let's face it........ President Bush.
You're even agreeing with me now aren't you?
Don't worry, you can admit it - your amongst friends...
There, there; you just think about that and have a good cry.
You'll feel much better if you just let it all out...
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297139 - 22/04/2007 20:18
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Being able to check traffic density before you head out is really useful. Every first world country should have it.
Cameras do a pretty poor job of monitoring overall traffic. They can help focus in on what might be causing it (unreported accident, mass of animals in the highway, whatever)
Quote:
The cameras on the major highway in Colorado Springs were pretty worthless, since you had to look at tons of images, and still not have a good picture of your entire commute.
To me it doesn't matter what it causing it, if it's gridlocked then I know to avoid it and use another route. I rarely need to see the whole route, just the hotspots.
Quote:
From what I understand, the use of CCTV was started by the Brittish government in the 70s, due to the IRA attacks of the time. And while the system didn't stop the 7/7/05 bombings, it did help to find those that attempted the 21/7/05 bombings. I do have to question why so much surveillance is needed though. One of the many differences between US and UK culture I suppose.
Of the cities I know, CCTV of that complexity has only really been round in the last 10 or so years. I feel safer walking through the city center late at night as a result.
Why anyone would have a problem with it is beyond me.... unless they've got something to hide. I highly doubt Big Brother gives a toss that I went to WH Smiths this afternoon.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297140 - 22/04/2007 20:31
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Unless you buy 
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#297141 - 22/04/2007 20:36
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Guilty as charged...  Oh, and this: 
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297142 - 22/04/2007 22:15
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: LittleBlueThing]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Well, this has gone all off track at this point (gogo off topic tangents in Off-Topic), but my post wasn't a US vs UK thing. Just an actual honest questioning of the CCTV practices there that I thought could be answered here. Guess I'll look elsewhere. As far as the US downward spiral over the past few years, thats a topic for me for another time.
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#297143 - 22/04/2007 22:38
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Just an actual honest questioning of the CCTV practices there that I thought could be answered here.
So they don't have cameras covering pedestrian precincts in city centres and road interchanges in the US? Or were you assuming there's one on every street corner like in V for Vendetta?
I would've thought CCTV is no more prevalent in the UK than it is in the US.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297144 - 22/04/2007 23:19
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
So they don't have cameras covering pedestrian precincts in city centres and road interchanges in the US? Or were you assuming there's one on every street corner like in V for Vendetta?
I would've thought CCTV is no more prevalent in the UK than it is in the US.
From my own personal experiences of being in London in 2004, it seems the number of cameras in use outside of private businesses is much higher. Using Austin and Los Angeles as a basis, about the only time I noticed cameras outside were the few scattered around the highways, and in LA at many intersections. Where as in London, I saw a lot more on the outside of building, not specifically monitoring entrances, and a seemingly higher density watching the roads. Add to that the many speed boxes (never seen one personally in the US, but I know a few are out there), and the difference is noticeable.
Then there is stories about talking CCTV installs and pictures of CCTV vans.
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#297145 - 23/04/2007 01:47
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I'm afraid UK has a much higher camera per person ratio than the US. We lead the Western World :-(
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#297146 - 23/04/2007 02:18
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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Quote:
Quote:
Just an actual honest questioning of the CCTV practices there that I thought could be answered here.
So they don't have cameras covering pedestrian precincts in city centres and road interchanges in the US? Or were you assuming there's one on every street corner like in V for Vendetta?
I would've thought CCTV is no more prevalent in the UK than it is in the US.
You guys are practically Big Brother compared to us. Although, I do have a camera setup at my front door.
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#297147 - 23/04/2007 07:15
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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You guys are practically Big Brother compared to us.
Don't start recursing in threads - you'll break the BBS 
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297148 - 23/04/2007 12:20
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Why anyone would have a problem with it is beyond me.... unless they've got something to hide.
This is always a terrible, terrible, argument. I realize that the UK gov't isn't nearly as advanced in its fascism as the current US gov't is, but if that infrastructure is in place and and it does head in that direction, are you still going to have the same argument when they decide that what you're doing is wrong?
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Bitt Faulk
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#297149 - 23/04/2007 12:27
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I would've thought CCTV is no more prevalent in the UK than it is in the US.
Here's an interesting article about CCTV in the UK. Notable quotes:
Quote:
According to the latest studies, Britain has a staggering 4.2million CCTV cameras - one for every 14 people in the country - and 20 per cent of cameras globally. It has been calculated that each person is caught on camera an average of 300 times daily.
Quote:
On the wall outside [George Orwell's] former residence - flat number 27B - where [he] lived until his death in 1950, an historical plaque commemorates the anti-authoritarian author. And within 200 yards of the flat, there are 32 CCTV cameras, scanning every move.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297150 - 23/04/2007 12:45
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Why anyone would have a problem with it is beyond me.... unless they've got something to hide.
This is always a terrible, terrible, argument. I realize that the UK gov't isn't nearly as advanced in its fascism as the current US gov't is, but if that infrastructure is in place and and it does head in that direction, are you still going to have the same argument when they decide that what you're doing is wrong?
Having no interest in religion and very little interest in politics I'd love to know what interest the government could possibly have in me.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297151 - 23/04/2007 12:46
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#297152 - 23/04/2007 12:51
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Maybe they'll decide that your ethnic heritage means you need to be segregated. Maybe they'll decide that since you're university-educated you need to be killed. Who knows? And even if you're as vanilla as they come, you should be equally concerned about what that means to the rest of the citizenry. Also, you may not be political now, but what about when they start cracking down on something you would be political about? Would you have second thoughts about marching in a protest when you considered all those cameras? What does that mean to the state of protest in general?
Look, I don't think that the UK is a bad place to live, nor do I think that the UK government would set up these cameras for the notion of controlling its populace, but once that infrastructure is there, it becomes available for abuse, both above and below board.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297154 - 23/04/2007 12:57
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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It's certainly something that does cross my mind very occasionally, but not enough to make me lose sleep over it. To be honest I think it's more likely to happen in the US first, it would seem to me a lot has changed in the last 10 years.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297155 - 23/04/2007 13:50
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
but once that infrastructure is there, it becomes available for abuse, both above and below board.
It isn't as if they are all central controlled, a huge number of the cameras are in fact privately owned, probably don't work and if they do someone has probably forgot to put a tape in the VCR.
The ones that are linked to a central control room are very much local efforts, with some spotty security guard sat watching them.
If some future government did decide to cross the line, it would only take an evening of direct action to disable all the cameras in the country.
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#297156 - 23/04/2007 13:56
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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The ones that are linked to a central control room are very much local efforts, with some spotty security guard sat watching them.
If some future government did decide to cross the line, it would only take an evening of direct action to disable all the cameras in the country.
One time you do always get cameras being used for political goals (although in an inverted sense) is when there's been a big protest in London: the organisers always say 500,000 people turned up, the police and government always put the figure nearer 43, twelve of whom were bewildered tourists who thought it was the queue for Madame Tussaud's, and all the congestion cameras which could settle the issue one way or the other turn out to have been switched off "for operational reasons".
Peter
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#297157 - 23/04/2007 14:45
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It only takes slow evolution of the CCTV infrastructure to reach those levels, though. Here's another step: Police propose minimum image quality standards for CCTV systems, including private and commercial ones. Again, I'm sure that the notion is that it'll be easier to identify criminals captured on camera if the quality is better. But it would also be easier if those cameras were tied directly to the police station. And then it would be easier if those images were constantly processed to find wanted people. And then it would make sense to start profiling actions. Again, I'm not saying that any of those things are going to happen, but I think it's worth it to attempt to make sure that they don't, or at least be aware of the situation so that you can see when further steps are taken along those lines.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297158 - 23/04/2007 17:33
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
but once that infrastructure is there, it becomes available for abuse, both above and below board.
If some future government did decide to cross the line, it would only take an evening of direct action to disable all the cameras in the country.
ah - see, that's what we need the guns for! Shooting CCTV cameras.
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297159 - 23/04/2007 22:47
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
but once that infrastructure is there, it becomes available for abuse, both above and below board.
It isn't as if they are all central controlled, a huge number of the cameras are in fact privately owned, probably don't work and if they do someone has probably forgot to put a tape in the VCR.
I've never seen the workings for the "4.2 million cameras" figure, it sounds like it's rife with double-counting and all sorts of logical errors. For example I have no less than four commerical-grade CCTV cameras in this room, none of them in operation, and another four cameras that would be counted as a "CCTV camera" if you were making a total of all consumer and commercial purchases.
Likewise, the article about George Orwell's house says the "...view of the tree-filled gardens outside the flat is under 24-hour surveillance from two cameras perched on traffic lights". FFS these are radar motion sensors used to detect a vehicle's presence!
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