Unoffical empeg BBS

Quick Links: Empeg FAQ | Software | RioCar.Org | Hijack | jEmplode | emphatic
Repairs: Repairs | Addons: Eutronix | Cases

Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#370258 - 29/12/2017 19:06 Re: New Apple Gear (iPhone 6 / Watch) [Re: K447]
Faolan
journeyman

Registered: 08/11/2017
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: K447
Perhaps an iPhone never ‘runs on the charger’.

The power management system is centered on the battery. The battery is the most trustworthy power source. It cannot be suddenly unplugged or decide (without warning) to reduce power delivery because another device was plugged into the next USB port on the charger.

This is my understanding too, as it’s similar to the way Apple notebooks have also worked for a while (hence the throttling when the battery is removed or bad). Phone wise, I imagine it’s also simpler to run it this way, especially on newer phones with contactless charging via Qi. IIRC, Apple’s taking another step to replace a 3rd party chip with their own in the power management iOS side currently.

Main device difference is the size of the batteries, and Apple’s deeper control of the hardware on the iOS side. Key thing to remember here is Apple also did move to manufacturing their own batteries in both notebooks and iOS devices a while back, which likely also factors in to the situation.

Apple’s been pushing mobile CPU boundaries for a while now, and their lead in the space is exposing them to unknown risks. Risks that will take a few years to fully fix with new silicon, so software fills those gaps. I’ve heard rumblings there’s times Apple’s custom SoC can spike to 10W power draws from near idle for some tasks, and it seems like iOS 10.2.1 was one of those gap fillers.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387 has a lot of interesting details to parse, especially the “In cases that require more extreme forms of this power management, the user may notice effects” section.

Overall this is a situation Apple caught legitimate anger due to their silence or whispers. When the 6s esposed the issue, combined with a legitimate bad batch of batteries, they hinted there was more to the issue with 10.2.1. However those hints only came via one line in the patch notes, along with statements to two Apple journalists. In classic telephone game problems, those journalists didn’t relay the full context properly to let Apple’s admittance that they throttle the iPhone 6 and 6s due to battery conditions become common knowledge among owners.

Thus the myth of “Apple intentionally slows old phones to force upgrades” grew a bit since they were unintentionally doing so after being backed into a corner with their batteries. When folks were running benchmarks, they could induce one of the rare behaviors that exposes the throttling so clearly. With a lack of clear communication before, it blew up into the ad revenue clickbait news cycle. Apple plays it too conservatively at times, and their reactions to situations like this I feel can still improve a lot.

Originally Posted By: K447
My take is that Apple is ‘doing the right thing’ here. Clarity, humility, and rather fair pricing on new genuine Apple batteries, installed and with an Apple battery warranty. This may cut into aftermarket replacement battery sales.

Agreed. And it’s already having an impact on aftermarkets. iFixit dropped their battery replacement kit to $29. This also includes phones older then the iPhone 6, so any do-it-yourself types have a good quality 3rd party source for older units still in use.

I feel under Jobs, they’d keep the $29 battery program for 5 years up front. Under Cook, I’m not so sure and feel they may extend it once but ultimately return to the old $79 cost sometime in 2019. I feel Cook’s old operations side gets in the way at times, especially when Apple’s sitting on the massive cash horde they continue to grow.
_________________________
Break the Silence, Stand Up, Join Us

Top
#370263 - 29/12/2017 23:18 Re: New Apple Gear (iPhone 6 / Watch) [Re: Phoenix42]
Faolan
journeyman

Registered: 08/11/2017
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
Both phones meet our needs, though the 5 stopped getting updates in July, and SWMBO is limited be the 16gb. Offering $29 battery upgrades (ifixit charges $20 for the battery alone) will likely be enough to sway us into upgrading to 6S by the end of 2018. Holding off that long because we're not heavy users - an out of date flagship phone does us just fine, I'm cheap, plus we hoping to build a new house in 2018 (which will be far from cheap).

I’m amazed at how long the 5s has lasted, it was such a great step forward for the lineup. And Apple’s gotten a lot of usage out of the lines to make the iPhone 5s/SE series. Both have been cranking out some great refurb and new units in growing markets like India.

If you two still like the smaller form factor, the SE is a wonderful upgrade to the 5 and 5s. They have the internals of the 6s minus the force sensative screen and new vibrational motor. Same upgraded camera, CPU, Apple Pay support, etc. Rumors are saying it may see a bump this spring, but hard to tell for sure.

Congrats on the new house too!
_________________________
Break the Silence, Stand Up, Join Us

Top
#370284 - 02/01/2018 03:01 Re: New Apple Gear (iPhone 6 / Watch) [Re: DWallach]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1376
Loc: MA but Irish born
Originally Posted By: K447
The time to sell the old iPhone 5 was much earlier in 2017 before Apple announced that iOS 11 would not support 32 bit hardware. Residual resale value in the iPhone 5 model I imagine has shrunk since.


Checking Glyde they are within $30 of each other, I'm fine with that, I got my nickles worth already, I think we paid $150 for it. It might become an iTouch for my 10yr old (that's her in my avatar, where did the time go???).

Originally Posted By: Faolan
If you two still like the smaller form factor, the SE is a wonderful upgrade to the 5 and 5s


Thanks for reminding my about the SE. I though it was based on the 6, but you are correct it is (mostly) a 6S in a 5S case. I'm fine using a "retro" iPhone for a few more years wink

Originally Posted By: Faolan
Congrats on the new house too!

The house is scary. Well the price of it is. Houses in MA are expensive, not San Fran expensive, and we need a good school district - my daughter is gifted & ASD, and we have a chance to get access into the Harvard town schools for low $500k.

I'll start a separate thread when things start moving - I'll have many questions to ask the empeg hive mind.

Top
#370341 - 06/01/2018 22:16 Re: New Apple Gear (iPhone 6 / Watch) [Re: Phoenix42]
Faolan
journeyman

Registered: 08/11/2017
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
I'm fine using a "retro" iPhone for a few more years wink

The SE made me so happy when it was announced to see that form factor live on. My impression coming from a 6s was that iOS feels squished on the screen at time though it’s still very functional and easy to use. I ended up buying one as a backup phone to have between my partner and I, and to ensure we have a device always charged in case of disaster. The cost of them was low enough it’s cheaper then buying phone insurance between us.

It also let me pass along my 6s shortly after the free battery swap. And all it still takes is swapping a SIM and restoring from a backup. I found I didn’t like the smaller screen as much for use on transit for reading long form items, though that old retro feel was still there, with all the modern niceties. The form factor I think was the peak of the iPhone design of that era, and I’m curious to see what evolutions of the X look like.

I’m also wondering if the iOS split on the iPhone will lead to the SE continuing on for a while, and potentially helping to keep the iPod Touch market going. There’s a few major differences in how I work with iOS split between an iPad Pro, iPhone X, and an SE due to their form factor differences and accessories. It in a way reminds me of how adaptable Windows 10 is UI wise to several environments.
_________________________
Break the Silence, Stand Up, Join Us

Top
#370614 - 04/03/2018 22:20 Re: New Apple Gear (iPhone 6 / Watch) [Re: K447]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3452
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Gah, someone should have called me to this thread smile

Originally Posted By: K447
Originally Posted By: mlord
https://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-performance/

Not a word about why they still throttle old iPhones even when running off the charger.

...
Perhaps an iPhone never ‘runs on the charger’.

The power management system is centered on the battery. The battery is the most trustworthy power source. It cannot be suddenly unplugged or decide (without warning) to reduce power delivery because another device was plugged into the next USB port on the charger.

Power from the USB charger would be used opportunistically to charge the battery and then supplement the current demand of the iPhone electronics. But that demand jumps up and down rapidly as screen comes on and cell radio powers up, plus the CPU and GPU demands, amplifier for the speaker, GPS, chip, etc.


The charger, even back to phones I worked on, could never supply enough power for current peaks to the CPU, GPU, DDR, NAND, camera (AF voice coil), flash, etc. Phone chargers - especially the ones people use (random things from china) are widely variable, and generally you're not getting more than 15W from them best case. We had to do all sorts of dynamic tricks to deal with them browning out so people would still get a reliable charge.

Come the iPhone 4S we had to up the battery protection trip point, because we could draw 4A out of the battery (at nominally 3.7v) - 15W - in a peak power scenario. Today's phones are likely 2x that. With ~150mohm battery impedance when new, that's 0.6v headroom gone right there.

Right from the iPhone 4S, Apple moved to multiphase bucks - like you see in PCs - in order to supply the current needs of the CPU, because a single phase would have meant the inductors were ridiculously sized. Instead, they ran either two or three phase allowing use of multiple smaller inductors. This was a first in the phone industry, I remember looking at Qualcomm teardowns in the years after I left and they were still single phase - multiphase is hard, especially when you want to add and drop phases to maximize efficiency as loads change.

As I remember, the peak currents - back then - were middling single digit amps just for the core. NAND could draw a couple of amps if 8 die were busy simultaneously too, I think my name is on a patent about scheduling these to try to reduce worst case draw...

Summary: average powers are dominated by the amount of heat the device can radiate, but are almost unrelated to peak powers.

ISTR a black body radiator the size of the 3.5" screen phones could dissipate 1W per 10C rise, so sustained you were at 2W max (so operation at 35C, the top end of the spec, didn't put the metal parts of the phone beyond 55C, which is the UL safety spec for metal/human tissue contact).

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4