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#364536 - 19/08/2015 13:25 Gamergate
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Almost No One Sided with #GamerGate: A Research Paper on the Internet’s Reaction to Last Year’s Mob

Over in the Best Videos thread, Dignan asked for some resources summarizing the online menace known as Gamergate. I found this report that came across my feeds today to be a very through treatment of the issue, and though the primary focus is about media coverage and public support for the movement, it does link to a fair number of "explainer" type articles that attempted to summarize the issue at a higher level, as well as some more detailed pieces analyzing specific aspects of the movement, insofar as it could be called a "movement" at all at this point.

One can nitpick specific aspects of the methodology used to estimate #GG's support, but it does seem that a vast majority of folks who paid any attention at all eventually figured out that it had very little to do with ethics in game journalism.
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#364537 - 19/08/2015 18:01 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have so much to say on the topic, but the silencing effects of those involved are damn effective. Quite honestly I'm still not prepared to talk about it publicly here. Some of I I never may, to also avoid victim tourism that has sprung up around the topic that many who are targeted continue to deal with.

I saw a lot of it unfold as it was happening and have some close connections to some people directly targeted. It showed the incredible darkness some people have in them, and the incredible resiliency others have when dealing with it.

And it was incredibly frustrating working at the time for a game studio that was too afraid to voice opposition to it. Not standing up at the right time leads to a lot of people suffering abuse unnecessarily. I give Blizzard a lot of kudos for being willing to stand up against it, even as one of their former all stars is now involved directly with GG. Tolerating the type of earlier behaviors that GG refined and weaponized is also a large part of the problems the game development world is facing these days.

Overall the events led me into some pretty deep self reflection and examination of others. I now see a lot of history differently as a result. I still have a pending reply I intend to post in the marriage equality thread, and how some of the GG situations led me to see that fight in a different way as well.
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#364538 - 19/08/2015 18:23 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
One thing I find scary about all of this, is how a small minority can use the internet as a tool for terrorism, enough to make any "movement" seem like a bigger deal than it deserves to be.

The internet enables the ability for one person (of any age) to make threats of violence anonymously against anyone. This is scary, and needs to be fixed, but I don't know how. I honestly believe that a large number of the people participating in these kinds of things are just bratty kids who think of this as entertainment, no different than griefing someone in an online game. Unfortunately, the anonimity prevents us from knowing for sure.

The internet allows minority groups to band together and mobilize, exerting levels of power which, as a culture, we're still learning how to come to grips with. When a "good" minority uses the internet in this way, it's a triumph, but when a "bad" minority does this, it's a problem. Another recent example of a non-violent kind of this sort of organization is the "Sad/Rabid Puppies" thing. No death threats there, just a small number of MRA's who thought the Hugo awards were getting too feminist, and who have basically ruined the awards this year by using small-scale crowdsourcing to wipe out all other nominations but theirs. I will find out this Saturday evening whether or not our savior (a relatively unknown guy named Noah Ward) can save the day.

The more I think about it, the more I think the terrorism metaphor is apt to describe events like this. Having ubiquitous internet is like dropping a giant box full of guns and masks in the middle of every town square. Most folks just avoid the box. Some use the contents of the box to help enact good social change. Some are genuinely evil and take advantage of these tools in bad ways. And others are just kids playing around, who stumble across the box accidentally.

I don't know what to do about it, because the box is also full of so much other awesome good stuff. I don't want to take away the box, and it's a really difficult box to regulate and control.
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Tony Fabris

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#364539 - 19/08/2015 19:20 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
The internet enables the ability for one person (of any age) to make threats of violence anonymously against anyone. This is scary, and needs to be fixed, but I don't know how.

Some of the good that came from the past year of craziness is organizations like OAPI. They seek to fix these issues, or at least equip the targets of this style of attack with good tools to defend themselves.
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#364540 - 20/08/2015 12:01 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3637
Ignoring the "issues" of GamerGate and instead focusing on their tactical maneuvering, what we're seeing is an abuse of the Internet's ability to allow you to hide behind a pseudonym. In some countries, you can't get anywhere near an Internet connection without presenting your ID, such that any action taken by any IP address can be immediately traced by authorities to a specific person. This, naturally, creates a chilling effect on free speech.

(For now, I'm going to ignore Tor, VPNs, and other services that attempt to recreate anonymity as well as nation-state censorship that tries to block this.)

As much as we value the absence of that sort of chilling effect in Western Democracies, we how have people abusing their anonymity to create their own chilling effects, never mind doing awful things like calling in fake police reports that result in false deployments of SWAT teams.

Ultimately, free societies work when everybody opts into societal standards of behavior. When a few people defect from those standards, and can get away with it, then society will tolerate it for a while, but after that society will adjust to solve the problem, and that means less freedom. It's all just very sad.

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#364542 - 20/08/2015 14:16 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Having seen what vile things internet fuckwads will say under their real names via Facebook, Google+, etc., I'm entirely unconvinced that [ano|pseudo]-nyimty is a major driver of this behavior. It certainly doesn't help things, but I think it gets far more blame than it deserves.
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#364543 - 20/08/2015 14:27 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
It would be interesting to see the numbers on that. I don't think anyone has real numbers there, but it would be a fascinating study if someone were able to do it. Common sense logic tells me that people wouldn't issue death/rape threats or swat people under their real names. But you're right about there being a lot of bad stuff being posted under real-name accounts. So you've really got me thinking about that one, you could indeed be right.

Oh, and about the swatting thing: that one doesn't require the Internet, but I think the Internet helps by popularizing it and sometimes providing the target's address.
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Tony Fabris

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#364544 - 20/08/2015 15:23 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tonyc
Having seen what vile things internet fuckwads will say under their real names via Facebook, Google+, etc., I'm entirely unconvinced that [ano|pseudo]-nyimty is a major driver of this behavior. It certainly doesn't help things, but I think it gets far more blame than it deserves.
Very much agreed. Some of the most vicious parts of Gamergate are the people unafraid of their name being attached to it. Such as a certain B rate actor who coined the term and doesn't deserve to be named.

I also disagree with Dan's point that fixing this issue will result in a loss of freedoms from where we are today. We as a society have already accepted harassment is not protected speech, and have laws reflecting this. Those who are targeted by this mob want enforcement of the current laws. And they want to stop victim blaming or old bad advice of "just don't go online" or "don't feed the trolls".

This situation for me exposed how badly behind the times our law enforcement is. Oakland PD for example had no clue what SWATting was while being a part of Silicon Valley. A target I know was saved from their door being broken down and possibly injured only because they called ahead of the threat being made.

Quite honestly one of the best ways to solve this issue is for people to stand up more. Any hints of harassment at work, at home, or in public must be addressed, even when it's subtle or possibly even unconscious. People have to want to fix this on their own and join others, instead of waiting for someone else to do something. The internet not policing it's own communities effectively (and I myself am guilty of this with the community here in the past) allows this behavior to fester and reach the toxicity it has.
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#364555 - 23/08/2015 14:48 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
In other "maybe the good guys are winning" news: "sad puppies" crash and burn at the Hugo awards. (Background.)
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#364557 - 24/08/2015 01:30 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
It was a very exciting night, for many reasons. It was really awesome to hear rousing cheers each time they read out the No Award result.

Also, today, at the business meeting, they passed E Pluribus Hugo so that this shit won't happen again, at least not the same way.

Having survived the smoke in Spokane (it was epic on Friday), thrown out my back during sound check and played a great concert anyway, and then got to be in the room as the Hugos made history, I think the weekend on balance came out pretty good.
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Tony Fabris

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#364558 - 24/08/2015 15:51 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
This seemed like a good longer form writeup to me as someone who hadn't followed the sad puppies story: http://www.wired.com/2015/08/won-science-fictions-hugo-awards-matters/
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#364559 - 24/08/2015 18:02 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
I liked that story, and even tweeted a link to it when I saw the story. You're right, it's a really good explanation of the situation, and why last Saturday was important, for those who might not have known about what was going on.

Some people rightfully took that particular story to task for misrepresenting the history of the Hugos and SF a little bit. In particular, it made it seem like SF was only ever made by old straight white guys until very recently. The truth is that women and minorities and LGBT folks have been in SF all along, their voices were just not heard as well until recently.

Despite that quibble, I think it was a well written story which makes this situation very clear to the layman, and it's particularly good at using direct quotes from the puppies themselves, something that a lot of other writeups aren't doing.

The morning after the awards, I did a google news search about the Hugos, to see what the coverage was like. The two top hits were that one, and the top blog post by one of the puppies crowing how they'd "won". smile

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Tony Fabris

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#364561 - 25/08/2015 21:21 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Also, today, at the business meeting, they passed E Pluribus Hugo so that this shit won't happen again, at least not the same way.


Today I learned that the ratification process for the Hugo rules means that this won't take effect until the 2017 hugos.

Sigh.
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Tony Fabris

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#364572 - 27/08/2015 11:41 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Excuse my ignorance, I don't seem able to find what I would call a decent and balanced summary from a news outlet I would normally pay attention to of what GamerGate actually is.

As a non-gamer I have seen this term banded about but have little understanding of what it is/was and which side of the argument I would fall.

I have 3 questions...

1 - Is "Gamergate" the good guy/girl or bad guy/girl ???

2 - Am I right to assume there are professional victims on both sides of this tail?

3 - Why should I care about this issue and take the time to find out more?

Cheers

Cris

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#364576 - 27/08/2015 13:49 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#364577 - 27/08/2015 13:51 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
(Edited: Sections edited and rewritten with stronger and more direct language instead of making implications. More text added, additional opinions added.)

Quote:
Excuse my ignorance, I don't seem able to find what I would call a decent and balanced summary from a news outlet I would normally pay attention to of what GamerGate actually is.


Understandable, since it's a hot-button issue that tends to be very polarizing. The article linked at the top of this thread makes it clear that the media has generally tended to side against gamergate, so most of the articles you see will be from that perspective. The current version of the Wikipedia article seems to have a lot of good information on what it's about, though who knows what the article will look like tomorrow. My guess is that those who are pro-gamergate would like to see the Wikipedia article rewritten to be more balanced towards their side, and I seem to recall there was initially a lot of back-and-forth editing on the article. I tend to think the media and Wikipedia are currently covering it pretty well, but if you asked anyone who sides with the movement, you'd get a different story.

The next question is: When does an issue genuinely deserve balanced coverage? If someone does something bad because they think they are righteous, does their side deserve to be covered in a "balanced" way? Or do we simply report that they did something bad, and this was their reasoning for doing it? Depends on whether you think their actions were wrong, and whether you think they were actually righteous or not. When you disagree with the actions and you do not believe the perpetrator was righteous, then there's no "issue" and there is no reason to be "balanced": You just report that a crime was committed and move on. I think that's what most of the media did, because that's the level of coverage it deserved.


Quote:
1 - Is "Gamergate" the good guy/girl or bad guy/girl ???


Gamergate is the name used by the group of people doing the harassing. I think that means they were the bad guys. Of course, if you asked the members of gamergate, they would say they were the good guys, because they think they are righteous. If history is written by the victors, then in this case, the victors (and in this case I'm defining victory as the general public and media opinion, cited in the article linked at the top of this thread) will tend to say that gamergate was the bad guys. And they do tend to be *guys* specifically, that's part of the nature of the movement, as the wikipedia article will clarify. Whether you agree that they're the bad guys depends on how you feel about the hot-button issues which are raised therein. If you believe that they were righteous to harass/dox/threaten these women, then you probably think they were the good guys, too.

There is the other issue, which is, any movement of any size will have factions. Some of the members of gamergate were denouncing the actions of some of the other members. Since, as a movement, it was very amorphous to begin with, it's hard to actually pin down who represents what. Did it start with someone raising issues calmly, and then get overtaken by zealots? Or did it start with the zealots, and are those calling for more reasonable discussion the outliers? Hard to tell. In general, though, the movement very quickly came to represent the harassment campaigns, quickly overshadowing anyone else who tried to make their points more calmly. The catch phrase for the movement, "actually, it's about ethics in games journalism", carries some irony with it, because the members of the movement in general were seen as doing quite unethical things, and were targeting people in such a way at to make it clear that it wasn't about games journalism at all, it was really about sexism and misogyny all along. If there was anyone in the movement actually trying to make games journalism more ethical, then, aligning themselves with the gamergate name was counterproductive.

I also have a personal belief (not supported by any evidence) that a lot of the gamergate movement was actually just a bunch of kids: internet trolls and griefers with nothing better to do, who just see this as a giant game they could play, something mischievous they could do without getting caught. Even if this is true, it doesn't make the situation any less serious. There were still plenty of non-anonymous adults standing up for the movement and rallying those troops.


Quote:
2 - Am I right to assume there are professional victims on both sides of this tail?


I don't know, I'm sure it depends on your definitions of "professional" and "victim", but from my point of view, the victims were the gaming industry professionals who were targeted for harassment, and as far as I know, the members of Gamergate, the ones who launched the organized campaign of harassment, were not professionals in the gaming industry.


Quote:
3 - Why should I care about this issue and take the time to find out more?


Because even if you're not a gamer, a massive number of humans are, and understanding that some of the people in the industry are being targeted for harassment is important, because this is an important social issue. This issue has farther-reaching implications than just gamers or games journalism. It shows how the internet can be used as a tool for doing hurtful things, and shows us the places where the internet can be improved for the better. It reminds us that the human race and its cultures are still deeply mired in sexism, misogyny, and other problems, which are hard to fix, but which nonetheless need addressing. It helps us improve the future of the human race by exposing our sometimes-hidden darker tendencies. It is an example we can use to teach our children important lessons. It shines a light: it helps us recognize when there are hurtful things happening around us, perhaps happening to our friends or perhaps perpetrated by our friends, which otherwise might have gone unnoticed, and gives us a chance to maybe do something about it.

Sexism, misogyny, bigotry, and intolerance are learned behaviors. So are respect and acceptance. If we can be shown situations where negative attitudes have specific negative consequences, it's worth looking at, because it helps influence us, as a species, to improve. Minds can be changed (sometimes), and our children can learn from our mistakes. I believe that, over time, humanity will improve to be better about these things, and recognizing the places where we can make improvements is a critical part of that. I believe that this improvement is happening all around us today, in clearly visible steps, and that we need to be attentive to it, and not get complacent about it. So we need to point out and pay attention to the places where we're losing ground on that progress.

The fact that, today, we can even talk about any of these things (gamergate, sexism, bigotry, etc.) as an "issue" that needs "balanced coverage" completely *horrifies* me. We need to aim for a future where these things are no longer in question, and are just accepted as wrong. We'll get there, as long as we don't ignore the bad stuff when it comes up.
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#364578 - 27/08/2015 14:57 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Thanks for the info guys.

I started to read the Wiki page, which lead me to this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

Within the first 5 minutes I started to think I was disagreeing with a lot she was saying. So I guess that puts me in the misogynistic sexist pig camp?

Then I remembered where I had heard about this stuff in the past, on this guys channel...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A

So I went to watch a couple of videos there. Then I decided this issue seems to be one of those classic internet discussions that just wouldn't happen face to face and decided to leave it there.

I guess by professional victim I mean anyone who profits financially from putting themselves in a position deliberately opposed in order to gain. Which I can already see is the case on YouTube (the assumption being both sets of videos I have watched today ran ads before I could view).

Cheers

Cris

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#364579 - 27/08/2015 14:58 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Edit: Withdrawing my reply for now, until I can rewrite it in stronger language. Some of the points I made were meant to be inferred, and they should be stated strongly instead of inferred.


Ahhh, ok. Well it was useful when I read it as was.

Cheers

Cris

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#364580 - 27/08/2015 17:18 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Cris
I started to read the Wiki page, which lead me to this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

Within the first 5 minutes I started to think I was disagreeing with a lot she was saying. So I guess that puts me in the misogynistic sexist pig camp?

Disagreeing with Anita doesn't make one sexist, it makes them a person with a differing opinion of a critic, or someone who doesn't believe the facts she presents in her series alongside her critiques. However Gamergate didn't start with Anita. It was started by Zoe's ex. Many in Gamergate have tried to distance themselves from the origin of this situation, knowing how it paints them in a deserved bad light. And others expanded their harassment to Anita after starting with Zoe, merging with some who were already harassing Anita when Zoe's situation exploded.

What Anita is discussing has nothing to do with Gamergate, so beyond that I won't comment on her work in this thread.

The video series here explores how Gamergate latched onto people like yourself who disagree with Anita and turned them into part of the harassment crowd: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF (The video I dropped in the best videos of 2015).

And that above part is why you should care. To be more aware of how someone with a hidden agenda (Zoe's ex) can spin a fantastical tale that launches a harassment campaign you might not even realize you are a part of. Being more aware of these tactics has me viewing some other situations in a different light now.

Originally Posted By: Cris
I guess by professional victim I mean anyone who profits financially from putting themselves in a position deliberately opposed in order to gain. Which I can already see is the case on YouTube (the assumption being both sets of videos I have watched today ran ads before I could view).

Zoe definitely didn't have a breakup with her ex to make money off the situation. Anita did not produce her series and position herself as a critic to profit off her harassment.
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#364581 - 27/08/2015 17:55 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
I can't really figure out this harassment has taken place. It's such a muddy pool !!!

Cheers

Cris

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#364582 - 27/08/2015 19:13 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Cris
I can't really figure out this harassment has taken place. It's such a muddy pool !!!


That particular part is well-documented and not muddy at all. I have a couple of examples after 2.5 seconds of searching, and there are more, but I've got stuff to do.

http://kotaku.com/another-woman-in-gaming-flees-home-following-death-thre-1645280338
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-29626809
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Tony Fabris

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#364583 - 27/08/2015 19:19 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Chris, what would it take to convince you it happened? An outright denial here is starting to make me view you as one of the "Angry Jack" people in the video series I linked. I still encourage you to watch it in it's entirety.

I know (or at least I hope) it's unintentional, but your behavior in this thread is eerily mirroring intentional tactics used by Gamergate.

And I will say this as far as the harassment. It was absolutely 100% real. It wasn't just "one of those classic internet discussions that just wouldn't happen face to face" I know this because I witnessed a small percentage of it. None of it was ever aimed directly at me, but due to my associations and career in games, I saw a lot up close.

I'm still not sure if I'm comfortable talking about specifics here though. I may be willing to do so privately if you want Chris. I'll only be willing to invest such time though if I can see some assurances you are sincere in your curiosity and open minded. It's a very sensitive subject for me.
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Tom

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#364584 - 27/08/2015 19:25 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: drakino
I know (or at least I hope) it's unintentional, but your behavior in this thread is eerily mirroring intentional tactics used by Gamergate.


I hope it's unintentional too. Trolling can be very subtle at times.
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Tony Fabris

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#364585 - 27/08/2015 21:51 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: drakino
I know (or at least I hope) it's unintentional, but your behavior in this thread is eerily mirroring intentional tactics used by Gamergate.


Unintentional.

It worries me you would just to such conclusions so quickly.

My interest in this topic is not great enough that I want to understand every detail. I have nothing but a mild curiosity, and I was hoping I could ask questions freely amongst people I have met face to face and known for many years without having my character brought into question.

At no point did I deny anything had happened, I just asked a question about what is supposed to have happened.

I can see this is opening a can of worms here. I don't think I want to open that can thanks.

Cheers

Cris

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#364586 - 27/08/2015 22:06 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Trolling can be very subtle at times.


Wow! Stunned!

At this point I think I need to ask myself what has the internet done to us all ???

You have met me Tony, long ago I guess, but we have met. We probably shared a beer. I've have been a member here for over a decade. I met my WIFE at an empeg meet but yet you rather believe the worst in me rather than what you should already know.

Your reply should have said "Yeah, I know Cris, totally unintentional I'm sure". It saddens me that it didn't.

If this is what this particular issue brings out in people then count me out!

One final point is, to an outsider the water is pretty muddy. I also spent about 10 seconds Googling too, and whilst my search did throw up similar articles to the ones you link it also threw up stuff like this...

http://www.usu.edu/today/index.cfm?id=54179

Unless that is a fake website it appears to be legitimate? And paints a slightly different picture to even the BBC article on the exact same topic. So I call that a muddy puddle.

Cheers

Cris

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#364587 - 27/08/2015 22:31 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Cris
Unintentional.
This is great to hear, and I do believe it.

Originally Posted By: Cris
It worries me you would just to such conclusions so quickly.
I appreciate the concern. Due to the proximity to what happened and some other life crisis situations over the past 2 years, I get defensive much quicker then normal. It's an unfortunate side effect that I'm working on correcting in myself. And it's part of why I'm handing control over the boards to someone else.

Originally Posted By: Cris
My interest in this topic is not great enough that I want to understand every detail. I have nothing but a mild curiosity, and I was hoping I could ask questions freely amongst people I have met face to face and known for many years without having my character brought into question.
I want to apologize for the attack on your character. I would still encourage you to watch the series above still, as beyond the scope of Gamergate, it talks about some interesting aspects of human psychology. Gamergate was just one named incident of many that are happening out there. Tony here has some exposure to a fork of it that also went after science fiction writers. The internet does enable these situations to happen easier, due to the ease of communication it enables. It's something that we all will have to grapple with somehow as our world continues to join together more as a community.

Originally Posted By: Cris
At no point did I deny anything had happened, I just asked a question about what is supposed to have happened.
Your statement earlier of "I can't really figure out this harassment has taken place." came across as a denial to me. Gaslighting was a common tactic by those in Gamergate to cover up their abuse. Their denial of such harassment while engaging in it would then lead those not participating in the harassment while still remaining allied with GG to unintentionally help cover it up.

A slang term of Sea-Lioning came to be used during the Gamergate controversy. The goal behind this was to make it appear Gamergate supporters were more rational and civil then they really were to the wider audience, and attempting to get the wider audience to ignore the people under attack as "uncivilized and unwilling to engage in honest debate". Sea-Lioning has parallels with "just asking questions".

Again I understand your responses were just coincidentally mirroring some of these tactics. I raise them here not as an attack on you, instead to help you and others here understand the reactions some many have.
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Tom

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#364588 - 27/08/2015 22:42 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sorry, Cris. Didn't mean to offend. You are right, we have met before, and I certainly don't take you as that type of person. I think it says more about the way that certain trolls do their business than it does about you or me or Tom.

Basically, sometimes trolls will phrase a question online in such a way as to sound innocent, but which they know will provoke a polarized response. It's hard to tell the difference between that, and honest curiosity. I believe you when you say it's honest curiosity about a topic you didn't undertstand.

It is an interesting point that you make, that the USU site claims there was no danger on the day Anita canceled her appearance. I remember that announcement on that day, and I see why the two reports might seem to differ, to you, when you are reading them after the fact.

But let me clarify the perceived discrepancy. I don't think there is a discrepancy here, I think that what Anita (and that BBC news article) reported on that day, and what USU is saying, are actually the same thing.

Anita clearly said that she canceled because USU wouldn't (or perhaps couldn't?) beef up their security after receiving the threat. The threat was made, and there is no muddiness about that point. The USU article itself even states, clearly:
Quote:
"A number of people at USU received an email regarding the scheduled presentation by Sarkeesian Wednesday at USU's Taggart Student Center. The email contained threats to Sarkeesian and those who attended her presentation."


This isn't muddy at all to me. It's a clear admission by USU that they received threats and chose to do nothing about them. And I think Anita made the right call by canceling the appearance when USU wouldn't beef up the security. This is pretty clear to me, and I don't see any muddiness in the reporting of the incident here.

There have been too many cases in our country about situations where someone carried out on precisely those kinds of threats. This happens regularly in this country, and it's very sad that it does. The news is currently plastered here with another highly public mass shooting which occurred this week. That's why the gamergate people know that they can make the threats and cause distress by making them. The problem is that there is no way to tell whether the threat will be carried out. USU decided to make a gamble that the threat would not be carried out, and Anita rightfully chose not to make that same gamble.
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#364589 - 27/08/2015 23:26 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
(Clarifying: In the wake of a threat like that, simply prohibiting backpacks at the event is the same as doing nothing at all. For those kinds of threats you need something a little stronger: Pat downs and metal detectors.)
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Tony Fabris

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#364590 - 27/08/2015 23:34 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
The BBC article quoted Anita on why she didn't attend the event, and I'll expand a bit.
Originally Posted By: Anita
Requested pat downs or metal detectors after mass shooting threat but because of Utah's open carry laws police wouldn’t do firearm searches.
Originally Posted By: tfabris
It's a clear admission by USU that they received threats and chose to do nothing about them.

The threats made against her were ones of violence by firearm. The school she was going to speak at was a public one, so it falls under laws that govern Utah. Those laws allow guns on public school campuses, and allow people with permits to conceal firearms on their person. They didn't choose to do nothing about it, they were bound by law to not do more as Anita asked.

Had someone with a valid permit attended, they would have been legally allowed to carry their weapon concealed and ready to fire into the venue where she was speaking.

Utah also allows open carry of firearms without a permit, and the police would not have been legally allowed to stop someone from entering with a visible weapon on them. The open carry law requires the ammunition to be two steps away from being ready to fire. With a modern handgun, this is literally less then a seconds worth of time to do.

The concealed permit side was a concern for Anita due to Utah being a "shall issue" state. This means that unless someone already has certain criminal convictions, the state has to grant a permit to anyone who asks. They also recognize any permit from any other state in the US, some of them have even less restrictions then the already lax ones in Utah.
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#364591 - 28/08/2015 00:10 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Wow, I didn't know about that aspect of it. All I'd heard was that they wouldn't/couldn't do enough, I didn't realize that they were legally bound to do nothing. That's crazy.
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Tony Fabris

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#364592 - 28/08/2015 02:54 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Wow, I didn't know about that aspect of it. All I'd heard was that they wouldn't/couldn't do enough, I didn't realize that they were legally bound to do nothing. That's crazy.

Yeah, Utah is a little scary.

Chris, I had the same reaction as Tony because I took your statements at face value. I'm not sure where the skepticism over the victim's motives is coming from, but I find it odd. Anita has made some TV appearances, but I doubt she's making much off those Youtube videos. Any measure of Youtube income you use will tell you that.

I'm sure she'd trade whatever meager earnings she's made from Youtube for a regained sense of security.
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Matt

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#364593 - 28/08/2015 03:02 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Tony, that was a fantastic and superbly-written post. Bravo.

Gamergate is a mess. I can get on board with concerns over the integrity of gaming journalism (although really, I don't care), but to argue about what the movement has become seems absurd. I'm not sure if those core followers understand what public perception is, but if the perception is that your movement is about something, that's what it's about. Maybe it's time to start a new movement.
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#364595 - 28/08/2015 03:41 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tonyc
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Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
There's sort of a Pascal's wager effect with this stuff. Let's assume arguendo that some particular target or another of the GG crowd is embellishing or completely fabricating elements of their story for whatever reason. What exactly is the downside of taking their claims at face value? Very little as far as I can see. Meanwhile, the downside of skepticism toward their claims is very significant. When you add to this the large quantity of verifiable claims of explicit threats and intimidation, I think it's pretty clear that the benefit of the doubt should be given to those who've been on the wrong side of this mob. And yeah, as folks have said, if it ever was really about ethics in game journalism, it isn't now, and you don't get a second chance to make first impression. Ask Occupy Wall Street about that.
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#364598 - 28/08/2015 12:14 Re: Gamergate [Re: Dignan]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Yeah, Utah is a little scary.
I find Utah to be absolutely amazing and love going there. Most of the people are awesome (a few are a little too off, my mother had an 'incident' with a customer service rep there that still makes me laugh my ass off). The liquor laws are odd, but other than that, awesome place and amazing scenery.

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#364599 - 28/08/2015 13:10 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
andy
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Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5651
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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#364600 - 28/08/2015 13:41 Re: Gamergate [Re: andy]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
I still find it distressing that the curtains are named after one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

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#364601 - 28/08/2015 15:35 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
I also have a personal belief (not supported by any evidence) that a lot of the gamergate movement was actually just a bunch of kids: internet trolls and griefers with nothing better to do, who just see this as a giant game they could play, something mischievous they could do without getting caught. Even if this is true, it doesn't make the situation any less serious. There were still plenty of non-anonymous adults standing up for the movement and rallying those troops.

Depends on how closely you bind your definition of kid to actual age. Legally, most in the crowd were of the adult age. A high but not quite majority percentage were in their 30s, with the slight majority fitting into the 20-29 side. I'll have to find the research into it again, but it was depressing to see.

I also realized mush of this thread has been discussing this as if it's in the past. Gamergate is still a thing today, and still causing problems for many people.
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#364603 - 28/08/2015 17:06 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
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Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
It would be interesting to see the research source, and if/how they obtained the age data for the people who were on IRC/4Chan/Twitter anonymously.
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Tony Fabris

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#364605 - 28/08/2015 23:32 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Tim
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Yeah, Utah is a little scary.
I find Utah to be absolutely amazing and love going there. Most of the people are awesome (a few are a little too off, my mother had an 'incident' with a customer service rep there that still makes me laugh my ass off). The liquor laws are odd, but other than that, awesome place and amazing scenery.

I stand by my short assessment which, to be fair to me, had nothing to do with the scenery, which is gorgeous. But the people in the state are kind of at the extremes. Some are exceedingly nice and cool. Others are not. I was there for a while and found it an...interesting place.

But my favorite Utah moment was when I was chatting with a local. I loved the look on his face when I described a Brew Thru.
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#364748 - 15/09/2015 18:12 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Curious to see Zoe's full talk from XOXO. This is a good read overall, with this part standing out:
Originally Posted By: The Verge and Zoe
she interviewed 300 self-identified former trolls to ask what made them stop. "Almost every single time, more often than not, they expressed that someone they were close to, respected, or looked up to said that wasn’t cool," she said. "The social network supporting this kind of feeding frenzy was no longer reinforced."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/14/9326207/zoe-quinn-gamergate-xoxo-festival
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#364751 - 15/09/2015 21:43 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
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Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Very cool quote.
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#364762 - 16/09/2015 13:39 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Very cool quote.

Indeed. How do you think we systematize that reinforcement break?

Sometimes I wonder if these are just growing pains of our net-connected society. In the past, we would all develop natural social contracts and queues, but it happened slowly. Maybe things are just moving too fast for us at the moment to be able to see the end of it.
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#364865 - 24/09/2015 16:27 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
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Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
The UN is now joining the cause: http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/24/9392067/united-nations-cyber-violence-against-women-report-tech

One positive aspect of Gamergate, the abusers self branded and rallied around a name. Their thoughts as explained in the Why are you so Angry series was that the name would help them blend into a crowd. This time it's had the opposite effect, shining a spotlight on the abuse and the tactic of hiding in crowds shouting "ethics in game journalism".

Women may have equal rights to men in many countries, but they certainly don't have equal experiences online. I'm glad to see an organization like the UN recognizing this, and speaking out about it. Denial of this being an issue, or scoping the issue to seem unsolvable does no good towards addressing it.
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#364869 - 27/09/2015 11:30 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK


Edited by Cris (27/09/2015 11:31)

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#364896 - 29/09/2015 16:21 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Cris

An unfortunate aspect of this paper is the sourcing of some rather odd things, including debunked research about video games that came out of the late 90s. It's also mixing a lot together unrelated to online harassment and threats. I'm hoping that they can refine this, as people are going to tear this apart and ignore some of the good suggestions it has intermixed with some of the oddness. My own reactions when reading it were going back and forth a lot, so I can only imagine how parts of it are coming across to others not well connected to the issues Gamergate caused.

Essentially my fear is that while the UN has a goal of sensitizing people to this to get them to care and advocate for change, it may help further desensitize people.
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#364901 - 29/09/2015 21:49 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
My personal feelings are that they have had to pull on odd resources as there is no research or studies that actually back up what they are trying to say.

Like you said, I don't think in the long run it will be of any use in it's current state.

Cheers

Cris

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#364916 - 30/09/2015 18:26 Re: Gamergate [Re: Cris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Cris
My personal feelings are that they have had to pull on odd resources as there is no research or studies that actually back up what they are trying to say.

Far from it. Their has been a lot of research, including the paper Tony C. linked to at the start of the thread on Gamergate. Much of it was done because the name alone helped bind together many different online sources to help study what happened. On the wider issues the UN paper discussed, other aspects are also well researched. Been slowly digging into each of the citations in the UN paper. The 90s gamer one at the end (118) was easy to spot by myself as I've already read through it and the followup research that debunked many of it's points. It does reflect badly on the output, but not the process (IMHO).

Originally Posted By: Cris
Like you said, I don't think in the long run it will be of any use in it's current state.

I didn't mean to imply that. The paper it's self may have several flaws in it. Other parts though are more a divide between sex positive feminists and feminists against the sex positive culture. The paper was mainly written by someone in the second sub-group.

The process of creating this paper with some of the panels held at the UN has been good to see. One important point Zoe even argued there was protection of online anonymity.

There are many different groups coming together sharing experiences and trying to come to a common consensus. At the UN level this is tricker, due to the national interests also coming forward, such as the nations that want to eliminate online anonymity. While it's been frustrating for some involved, they all seem to indicate it's still worth the effort to push forward at the UN, while other efforts also continue.
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#364938 - 01/10/2015 14:45 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Zoe's part of an interview here about the report:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/im-disappointed-zoe-quinn-speaks-out-on-un-cyberviolence-report

I had thought she was more involved with this, seems the UN published her name of people victimized without even asking her. This alone is dangerous, as often groups will grab these lists and go after people again to further attempt to silence them, or worse.
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Tom

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#365011 - 08/10/2015 23:55 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
UN ITU issues an apology over the initial publication, and will have an updated revision published in two weeks.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/united-nations-apologizes-for-fault-ridden-cyberviolence-report
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Tom

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#365151 - 27/10/2015 00:19 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tonyc
but it does seem that a vast majority of folks who paid any attention at all eventually figured out that it had very little to do with ethics in game journalism.

Sadly it seems the organizers of South by Southwest haven't figured that out.

They accepted a panel about solutions in regards to online harassment the normal way. And then a second panel appeared late in the process and was approved last minute, crafted in the open at the main gamergate subreddit pushing the false ethics angle. And today cancelled both due to the threats the venue was getting.

Unfortunately this result is yet again letting the silencing effect of these few core people take hold.

http://recode.net/2015/10/26/is-it-really-about-ethics-in-journalism/

Hoping to see this one turn around somehow. SXSW is catching a lot of flack for this today.

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#365173 - 28/10/2015 18:30 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Overall looks like the SXSW situation is going to result in the Gamergate hate group yet again massively amplifying the anti-harassment subject, instead of their sexist based agenda. Good to see.

Good writeup of the situation so far by a game designer down in Austin: http://www.zenofdesign.com/sxswhoops/
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#367946 - 01/12/2016 15:52 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#367952 - 01/12/2016 18:36 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: drakino


Very good article. Scary, but true.

Originally Posted By: Guardian
"Prominent critics of the Trump administration need to learn from Gamergate. They need to be prepared for abuse, for falsified concerns, invented grassroots campaigns designed specifically to break, belittle, or disgrace. Words and concepts will be twisted, repackaged and shared across forums, stripping them of meaning."
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#367958 - 01/12/2016 22:43 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Originally Posted By: Guardian
"Prominent critics of the Trump administration need to learn from Gamergate. They need to be prepared for abuse, for falsified concerns, invented grassroots campaigns designed specifically to break, belittle, or disgrace. Words and concepts will be twisted, repackaged and shared across forums, stripping them of meaning."
How does that compare to any critics of Obama automatically being labeled a racist?

Or any supporters of Trump being immediately declared as a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, antisemitic misogynist? (The Electors in AZ have been getting extensive abuse from people telling them to not vote for Trump - one said he was called antisemitic which confused him, because he is Jewish).

The hate isn't limited to one set of beliefs or politics. The anonymity of the Internet brings out the ugly in a lot of people.

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#367961 - 02/12/2016 01:35 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5250
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: Tim
Or any supporters of Trump being immediately declared as a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, antisemitic misogynist?

I participate in a forum called "Quora" which consists of a whole lot of people who answer questions on any topic to the best of their ability. The subjects range from quantum mechanics to politics to... you name it, and there are some pretty smart people there. Kind of like here, I guess.

Anyway, here is a question and answer that addresses your concern in an interesting fashion.

Why are many people so hostile and intolerant towards those who voted Trump? Especially on Quora. By state, the people chose Trump. The majority of those are not white, racist misogynists. But many users on this site refer to them as such. Why?

Jim Ryan answers:

A backpacker in a small Irish village ducked into a rustic little pub to escape the rain. To his surprise, the place was empty except for one grey-haired man slouched over his glass of whisky. Soon the old guy broke the silence:

“Do you see this pub here? I built it with me own hands, felled the trees, finished the lumber and nailed each and every plank in place. Do they call me O’Mallory the pub builder?

You see that stone wall out there? I pried each and every stone out of the potato fields, carried them a half-mile and set ’em all in place just so. Do they call me O’Mallory the stone wall builder?

D’ye see that pier out in the lake? I drove those pilings deep into the mud with the sweat of me brow and the strength of me arm so it would last an age. Do they call me O’Mallory the pier builder?

But… you fuck one goat…

A vote for Trump is that one goat. It has a way of eclipsing any virtues you might claim for yourself. Whatever private, deep-down goodness you can point to, the fact remains: you voted for the Cheeto-hued fascist sexual predator whose election has neo-Nazis wetting themselves with glee. And you thought this was a good thing? Sorry to be a meanie about this, but it’s hard to respect that decision or credit what are undoubtedly the other good points of the person who made it. I’m sure they exist, but I find myself in the position of O’Mallory’s Irish neighbors. It’s hard to get Old Nannygoat’s bleating cry out of my ears.


'Nuff said.

tanstaafl.
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#367966 - 02/12/2016 14:04 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Tim
Or any supporters of Trump being immediately declared as a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, antisemitic misogynist? (The Electors in AZ have been getting extensive abuse from people telling them to not vote for Trump - one said he was called antisemitic which confused him, because he is Jewish).

I don't think all Trump voters are racists. But the ones who aren't stood shoulder to shoulder with racists and said "that doesn't bother me."

Trump's campaign was run on divisiveness. There might be hate on both sides, but it is not anywhere close to equivalent and that is where you make your error.
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#367967 - 02/12/2016 16:49 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: Tim
How does that compare to any critics of Obama automatically being labeled a racist?

Or any supporters of Trump being immediately declared as a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, antisemitic misogynist? (The Electors in AZ have been getting extensive abuse from people telling them to not vote for Trump - one said he was called antisemitic which confused him, because he is Jewish).

The hate isn't limited to one set of beliefs or politics. The anonymity of the Internet brings out the ugly in a lot of people.


This false equivalency is maddening, and it's precisely how we in the US have gotten into this mess. A handful of electors being harassed cannot be credibly compared to the mainstreaming of the so-called "alt-right" that has built a movement so powerful that it's taken ownership of one of our two major political parties and now controls the levers of power. Some of Trump's voters wanted a fascist strongman, some didn't, but we're all about to get one, and if you can't see the Trumpist base as something unique and far more problematic than a few people sending nasty emails in a desperate attempt to stop him from taking power, well, talk to me in a couple of years.
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my empeg stuff

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#367970 - 02/12/2016 20:10 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: tonyc
This false equivalency is maddening, and it's precisely how we in the US have gotten into this mess. A handful of electors being harassed cannot be credibly compared to the mainstreaming of the so-called "alt-right" that has built a movement so powerful that it's taken ownership of one of our two major political parties and now controls the levers of power.
It isn't just a handful of electors, though. Thinking it is just shows how unaware people are about the problem.

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#367971 - 02/12/2016 20:48 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11787
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Tim
Originally Posted By: tonyc
This false equivalency is maddening, and it's precisely how we in the US have gotten into this mess. A handful of electors being harassed cannot be credibly compared to the mainstreaming of the so-called "alt-right" that has built a movement so powerful that it's taken ownership of one of our two major political parties and now controls the levers of power.

It isn't just a handful of electors, though. Thinking it is just shows how unaware people are about the problem.

Please offer a source for these claims and then explain to me how it's equivalent to the explosion of hate crimes across the nation since the election.
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#367975 - 02/12/2016 23:22 Re: Gamergate [Re: Tim]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Tim
It isn't just a handful of electors, though. Thinking it is just shows how unaware people are about the problem.


From the articles I read (the articles from reputable news sources as opposed to just conservative sites), these electors are getting letters, emails and phone calls, asking them to exercise their right and duty in this electoral democracy, to refuse to elect someone who is unqualified for the office.

As I understand it, letters, emails and phone calls are the correct way to speak to our government officials to make ourselves heard in a democracy. Even if some of those letters contain inflammatory language (including telling a Jewish elector that he would be aligning himself with antisemitism if he votes for Trump), it is still not harassment: It is people using the appropriate channels (and their only available channels) to communicate with their government.

I haven't heard about electors systematically getting doxxed, swatted, or threatened with violence. Trying to equate their situation with actual harassment diminishes and takes attention away from the true criminal levels of harassment that others have endured.

This is not two equally-hateful sides. One side is not "Hate". There is a difference between righteous anger/surpise/ourtrage/backlash/defense, and the actual true Hate. The hate we're talking about here is a long-term calculated campaign of hate, violence, discrimination, stripping of human rights, and disenfranchisement towards specific races and genders.

If you really think that this is two equally-wrong sides, you're buying into the lies being fed to you. Have a think about that. Please, for your own sake.
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Tony Fabris

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#367976 - 02/12/2016 23:55 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7057
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
If it helps set the bar for comparison, here is a site that's collecting documented incidents of hate attacks since the election. Click on each state and you'll see links to news articles substantiating the claims. These go far beyond the scale and scope of being falsely accused of bigotry, which is certainly not okay, but is not at all equal to being the target of actual bigotry, intimidation, and in many cases, physical attacks.

If we expand the threshold of evidence from "credible, vetted claim backed by a supporting news report" to "plausible claim reported online to an organization that tracks hate groups", the number jumps from 122 to 867. Notably, as the PDF points out, this does not include any instances of online-only harassment such as emails and tweets -- the claims have to be related to a physical attack, property defacement, or some other physical evidence. Including email and Twitter in these numbers would of course cause these numbers to grow by orders of magnitude.
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#367985 - 05/12/2016 12:42 Re: Gamergate [Re: tfabris]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: tfabris
From the articles I read (the articles from reputable news sources as opposed to just conservative sites), these electors are getting letters, emails and phone calls, asking them to exercise their right and duty in this electoral democracy, to refuse to elect someone who is unqualified for the office.
It is from the AZ Republic (the paper that received death threats for endorsing Hillary).
Quote:
"Ash declined to share any of the emails but described them: "They demonize me, they call me a homophobic, an isolationist, a bigot, a misogynist, and an anti-Semite, which is interesting because I'm Jewish."
How about CNN?
You are right, you can call or write to electors, but death threats are not normally part of the deal.
Another bastion of conservatism reporting on a house being vandalized, The Washington Post? This one probably only made national news because of the swastika.

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#367991 - 05/12/2016 19:27 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30531
Loc: Seattle, WA
A death threat against an elector is a problem. I'm glad that Michael Banerian filed a police report, and I hope the police investigate it, and if they find someone who made death threats, prosecute them. Same goes for the people who had their house vandalized with a swastika. So, okay, good, now I've heard of some incidents, reported by reputable news sites.

I still get the feeling from these articles that they are reporting temporary, isolated incidents which are based around current events. I don't think these are equivalent to what the Guardian article was talking about. I still think it's a false equivalency.

The incidents you cited are clearly reactionary. Most people who want to convince an elector will look up the names and contact information for the electors, and then write or call them once. The people who got their house spray painted have probably never had it happen before, and probably won't have it happen again.

That's different from the long-term, nonstop, cold, calculated, systematic harassment and suppression that minorities, women and LGBTQ people have faced in the past and are going to face in the coming years, even after all of this furor surrounding the election has settled down.

The recent "pizzagate" thing is another example of precisely the thing which the Guardian article was warning about: http://www.snopes.com/pizzagate-conspiracy/ - It takes only a single well-placed lie, repeated enough times on social media, to cause serious problems for someone in real life. People in minority groups are the target of this kind of thing now, and are going to continue to be the target of this kind of thing for the foreseeable future. Though the pizzagate thing could be viewed by some as a single isolated incident as well, the method, content, and target of the attack is something we will be seeing repeated systematically in upcoming days, months, and years. We need to learn how to fight back against this kind of thing.
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#368044 - 12/12/2016 19:10 Re: Gamergate [Re: tanstaafl.]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13469
Loc: Canada

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#368161 - 04/01/2017 04:53 Re: Gamergate [Re: DWallach]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: DWallach
what we're seeing is an abuse of the Internet's ability to allow you to hide behind a pseudonym.

This part of the discussion popped back into my mind today, when I came across this published today: https://blog.coralproject.net/the-real-name-fallacy/ . It's a much deeper sourced article that has many of the bits and pieces I've seen about this topic over the past 2 years that debunks the anonymous factor of online spaces, including where the myth started back in the 80s.

A shorter tl'dr version (point 5 in the link), along with other common myths about online abuse is here: https://medium.com/humane-tech/the-immortal-myths-about-online-abuse-a156e3370aee

Anil Dash's twitter account is where I saw these links today, and overall he's been a great person to follow and read.
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#368279 - 02/02/2017 16:41 Re: Gamergate [Re: tonyc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7830
Loc: Seattle, WA
Huh, wonder why this is getting so much coverage and attention at high levels.

Yet no mention from 4 5 or those around him about the incident at a university in another state that borders the pacific ocean where a shooting happened, and also had a protest turn riot.

Very strange
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#368324 - 06/02/2017 16:23 Re: Gamergate [Re: drakino]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1430
Loc: Arizona
The Guardian (and the Daily Mail, whatever that is worth) covered that one, as well as domestically.

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