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#58157 - 12/01/2002 09:43 Map Data, GPS navigation
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Hi all,

starting a new thread for this so that the main thread is not cluttered up.

I got a reply from TeleAtlas but that was only a brochure of how cool they are, no prices. I wrote them back, will see what happens.

Anyway, a quick websearch revealed that map CDs in GMF format are publicly available. For example, http://www.fugawi.de sells the TeleAtlas CD in GMF format for Germany for 78 Euro. They have one version that seems to be feasible for car navigation.

They say that the maps are also available for other countries, I don't know about the states but if one can get GMF data in Europe, one should be able to get it in the states as well.

Till

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#58158 - 12/01/2002 15:54 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
smu
old hand

Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
Hi Till.

First: Congratulations, you got more of a responce from teleAtlas than I got.

You are right that GMF data discs seem to be easily available. BUT if I read the (german) discription of those maps that I found at http://www.poly-electronic.ch/cd-karten.htm correctly, those aren't intended for real navigation tasks in the way we want it, but rather those are for moving map applications (read: rasterized maps, not vector based). Also, the map format doesn't seem to be well documented.
GDF maps would be different though, they are really well documented. Rather hard (or expensive) to get, though.

cu,
sven (just started working his way through the GDF documentation)
_________________________
proud owner of MkII 40GB & MkIIa 60GB both lit by God and HiJacked by Lord

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#58159 - 12/01/2002 17:51 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Damn, then I was wrong about the formats and mixed them up. They say they are selling Shapefile and ARC formats too, is that importable?

Also, the one CD that I found in that shop above was explicitely made for car navigation, it has all the necessary street information, even including house numbers.

Till

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#58160 - 12/01/2002 18:12 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
I mixed it up again. http://www.fugawi.de/TeleAtlas-Karten-Deutschland.html states that the data is in GDF format, of which the format is available. Also, it says that it is usable for GIS, for which a specification seems to be available at www.opengis.org.

Well, I am doing research here without really knowing what is needed, but it seems that the data format on the CD is a stanrdard format.

Till

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#58161 - 12/01/2002 19:31 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
smu
old hand

Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
HI Till.

http://www.fugawi.de/TeleAtlas-Karten-Deutschland.html states that the data is in GDF format,...

Where? I only see them stating that they are in GMF format. Oh, wait, no...
The Germany map seems to be the TeleAtlas-multinet version (GDF format) while the European map CDs seem to be GMF.
Oh no, wait,...
Damn, those people at fugawi.de need to get this straight, the CD description says GMF, while the documents regarding the contained countries all say GDF. How is anyone going to understand what the CDs actually contain?
Oh well, they say those are TeleAtlas multinet, so according to TeleAtlas themselves, they should be in in both GDS-AS and GDS-AR formats.

Kim: Could you import those CDs into your system? Or actually write a conversion program that takes a user's CD and imports that?

cu,
sven
_________________________
proud owner of MkII 40GB & MkIIa 60GB both lit by God and HiJacked by Lord

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#58162 - 13/01/2002 02:56 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
kim
member

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 140
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
The Germany map seems to be the TeleAtlas-multinet version (GDF format) while the European map CDs seem to be GMF.
Oh no, wait,...
Damn, those people at fugawi.de need to get this straight, the CD description says GMF, while the documents regarding the contained countries all say GDF. How is anyone going to understand what the CDs actually contain?
Oh well, they say those are TeleAtlas multinet, so according to TeleAtlas themselves, they should be in in both GDS-AS and GDS-AR formats.


You mean GDF-AS and GDF-AR .

Kim: Could you import those CDs into your system? Or actually write a conversion program that takes a user's CD and imports that?

Should be possible. However, consider the following:

1) GDF format models intersections and junctions as own entities. At the moment, I don't have support for this, everything is based just on line segments which define roads.

2) GDF format supports multi layered data, my system doesn't. But it should be possible to only use the highest detail layer.

3) I have never tried much bigger than 80 square kilometer maps at once, and I don't know exactly how the data is organized, so some manual splitting might be needed.

As with the Tiger data, if someone can provide me a chunk of map data in GDF format and a GPS driving log around the same area, I can see what I could do.

Kim

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#58163 - 13/01/2002 05:47 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: kim]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
In reply to:

As with the Tiger data, if someone can provide me a chunk of map data in GDF format and a GPS driving log around the same area, I can see what I could do.




There is a demo download at the TeleAtlas site that provides GDF-whatever data of a small area in South Germany, namely Schwabach.

Anybody reading this board who is from the area of Nürnberg / Stuttgart / Frankfurt / Regensburg? For me, it is an 8 hour drive one way...

Most other European countries have a demodownload as well, please check out www.teleatlas.com and choose "Database Products" -> Multinet -> Demo Download for your country.

Till

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#58164 - 13/01/2002 05:50 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
I have checked back again, now they added a paragraph to their CD description that it is a stripped-down version of the multinet CD that is only used for route planning, no street navigation. Well then, we have to find another dealer.

Till

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#58165 - 13/01/2002 06:05 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Also, I found out that Map&Guide can export its maps to a vector format. Does anybody have experience with this feature? Namely, what can be exported exactly and what is the format?

Till

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#58166 - 15/01/2002 07:44 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
smu
old hand

Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
Hi.

I just had a talk with a TeleAtlas representative by phone. This is the information he gave me:

  • The TeleAtlas CDs that get sold for navigation systems are usually in Blaupunkt format, and TeleAtlas is not allowed to give those specs away, we would have to get in contact with the appropriate people at Blaupunkt and try ánd make a deal with them.
  • The MultiNet CDs that TeleAtlas sells are available, but they are under restrictive copyrights. Basically, you have to sign a contract that will cost a certain (to be negotiated) amount. I told him we were talking about a maximum of 1000 copies, and he said he would check that with his colleagues and come back to me via email by the end of the week.
  • For the MultiNet CDs, there is a developers license available, BUT it is very restricted: It only provides the data for a part of a larger country (like US, Germany, etc.) or a single country like the Netherlands, and only a license to use that for 3 month. This developer license is about 550EUR, which will be refunded if a contract for the use of multinet CDs is signed.
Ok, this much information for now, I will keep you posted.

A question to thos who would need to buy the data CDs, how much would you be willing to spend for them? And how many of you people really want to get a navigation system for the empeg.
The MultiNet data approach certainly won't be of much use if there are only a handful of people who actually want to buy these CDs.

cu,
sven
_________________________
proud owner of MkII 40GB & MkIIa 60GB both lit by God and HiJacked by Lord

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#58167 - 15/01/2002 07:54 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
I would be interested in paying some amount for US maps (if I can figure out how to connect my Onstar GPS to the empeg). I'm working on that now.

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#58168 - 15/01/2002 08:18 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: rtundo]
smu
old hand

Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
Hi.

Oh well, nice to hear, but how much would you be willing to pay. As far as I can tell (and the sales representative is trying to get a better deal for us), we would have to pay at least 20.000EUR total with a minimum of 40EUR per dics.
So we would be at:
40EUR (approx the same amount in US$) per disc with 500+ users
100EUR per disc at 200+ users
200EUR per disc at 100+ users
400EUR per disc at 50+ users
plus taxes, of course. And there is a one-time fee of about 400EUR per different disc (but he is trying to eliminate this). These fees include a single update of the data after approx. 6month. If we wanted more, we would have to get a different deal (which is probably even more expensive).
Ok, more details when I get the next email from him.
Oh, BTW: We would have to make sure that each disc is tied to a specific player (serial number), he just left it to our judgement in which way, and how strong this restriction is enforced.
The reason that the Blaupunkt CDs are cheap compared to this (and with next to no restrictions regarding the machine they are used with) is that it was a huge deal and Blaupunkt (and its licensees) are paying on a per machine base rather than a per disc base.

cu,
sven
_________________________
proud owner of MkII 40GB & MkIIa 60GB both lit by God and HiJacked by Lord

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#58169 - 15/01/2002 09:35 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
I don't have a set amount in mind. Realistically I think around $100 US would be practical but I'm flexible. I guess it might be worth trying to see how many people are interested first to get a better idea of cost. It seems from the new threads that more people are gaining an interest. And with the amount of new units sold recently there might be enought people to get a reasonable price. (Waiver of the one time fee would make it easier to justify).

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#58170 - 15/01/2002 14:19 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: rtundo]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
$100US seems reasonable to me as well. A complete integrated NAV system like this for under $250 with hardware seems a steal to me (not factoring empeg cost of course =).
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|| loren ||

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#58171 - 15/01/2002 14:21 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: loren]
rtundo
addict

Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
I agree. Under $250 would be a steal.

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#58172 - 15/01/2002 14:49 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: rtundo]
Dearing
addict

Registered: 22/07/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: Florida
Yeah. $250.
_________________________
_~= Dearing =~_
Gettin' back into it thanks to slimrio!

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#58173 - 15/01/2002 15:47 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
tigloo
member

Registered: 25/04/2001
Posts: 122
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
I would pay 100 Euro for the Germany CD, eventually 150. Really depends on everything, if Kim decides to open the source to his program and we can all work on it, I might even pay more if we need just a few bucks additionally to get the TeleAtlas deal.

Till

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#58174 - 18/02/2002 03:16 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tigloo]
fairlight
new poster

Registered: 25/12/2001
Posts: 11
Loc: Duisburg, NRW, Germany
Hello!

On freshmeat I just found this project: http://www.kraftvoll.at/software/

Perhaps, this will help you with your data-problem...

Have a look,

Falk

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#58175 - 20/02/2002 17:07 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: fairlight]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
gpsdrive is interesting but really more focuses on raster maps, not well-suited for tracking on the empeg unless you come up with an external screen to drive. I assume the aforementioned discs in this thread are vector format maps, far more useful for an application where you essentially want to give spoken or textual directions.

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#58176 - 21/02/2002 07:30 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
speedy67
enthusiast

Registered: 18/12/2000
Posts: 342
Loc: South-West-Germany
Hi,

i think 200 - 300 € including the Hardware (GPS-receiver etc.) would be OK for me, since i do not really need a Nav but it would be very nice, if my empeg could show me the right way just for fun... ;-)
(would need a Germany map or perhaps a less detailed Europe...)

Keep on trying...
_________________________
cheers, Thomas new owner of the MK1 00123 MK2 12GB 090000815 (my first one) MK2a 040103735 (from 303) and ???

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#58177 - 03/03/2002 19:05 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
Warp10
member

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 179
Loc: Germany
Hi!
I would pay up to 400EUR for the whole package (gps-hardware, software and map-data).

keep it goin...
_________________________
---------------------------- MK1: 00314 (4GB) MK2a: 030103104 (30GB) Installed in a BMW 323ti

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#58178 - 17/04/2002 22:03 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: smu]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I want one.

Can someone explain how this nav system would basically work?

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#58179 - 23/04/2002 22:39 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: fairlight]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Haven't seen this one asked before... but does anyone know where Mapquest, Expedia, Yahoo Maps, and the like get their maps and routing info??

The GPS Drive project mentioned above seems to be drawing it's maps from MapBlast and Expedia... could we find out how they are doing it and use a similar method?
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|| loren ||

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#58180 - 23/04/2002 23:00 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: loren]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
You know, it occurs to me that a properly written screen-scraper could start with existing PD map data, then feed random direction requests into Mapquest and parse its direction returns to determine things like street directions...
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#58181 - 23/04/2002 23:10 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tfabris]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
If you're lucky enough to be in the US, freely distributed data (can't remember if it's Census Tiger or USGS digital line graph, but I think it's the Tiger) has attributes for one-way-street-ness; They're just not always... correct.

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#58182 - 23/04/2002 23:18 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: Daria]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
My recollection is that the Tiger data is what Kim already tried with his software, and the lack of street directionality was a major problem.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#58183 - 24/04/2002 00:09 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: tfabris]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
In reply to:

My recollection is that the Tiger data is what Kim already tried with his software, and the lack of street directionality was a major problem.




I thought he said he had directionality turned off entirely at this point, but anyway...

DLGs can include fields for travel direction and speed limit. Standards for Street Centerlines explains how to use the data, however it appears to not be widely adopted. Interestingly Massachusetts seems to do something a little different and not as useful.

A few Xastir folks talked about trying to use this data to warn APRS users who were being tracked at higher than the speed limit. I'm still using Xastir in a mode where I don't broadcast, so how fast I'm going isn't being broadcast anyhow

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#58184 - 24/04/2002 06:33 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: Daria]
kim
member

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 140
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
I thought he said he had directionality turned off entirely at this point, but anyway...

Oh boy, this topic is getting old... To avoid repeating myself, read this thread. And especially the one I posted on 26/01/02.

Kim

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#58185 - 24/04/2002 08:01 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: kim]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
In reply to:

To avoid repeating myself, read this thread. And especially the one I posted on 26/01/02.




Thanks; Of course now that you point to it I remember reading it (closer to) the time. Back when the first link still had its images intact

None of it seems to conflict with the comments I made on one-way-ness in DLGs.

But, ok, the comment on directionality being disabled was my misrecollection of
this

What can I say, it's not been my month.

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#58186 - 24/04/2002 08:27 Re: Map Data, GPS navigation [Re: Daria]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
And just in case other people come here later and don't follow Kim's links and read through that thread, his comments were:

    We've been running various experiments with mcomb to find out how the biggest problems could be overcome.

    Initially, we started with the Tiger data (that is freely available for the whole US area). The problems with that data is that it's fairly inaccurate and it's missing one-way info/turning restrictions.

    Recently, I've looked into the USGS DLG data (also freely available for the whole US area) which has better accuracy and has one-way info. But since the data lacks street names and numbers, it is essential to combine these two maps together. However, the map conflating seems to be quite problematic. I can get about 80% of the streets mapped correctly, but the rest gets mapped to incorrect streets.

    This is a common problem in map conflating and without a relatively complex algorithms and manual tuning afterwards, it is hard to get good results.

    Read more here and here.

    Another problem with the one-way that can be extracted from the USGS data is that I haven't been able to figure out which way a road is one-way. If a road is marked as one-way, it's not necessarily always one-way towards the same direction as the data is digitized.

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Tony Fabris

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