Posted by: peter
Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:12
Sign Of The Times
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:14
With profuse thanks to the car-player owner who runs a custom road-sign company...
Peter
Peter
Posted by: robricc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:16
nice 
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:29
Sweet guys! Glad you got it.. uh... in the nick of time!
Okay, so, as I want to know (and probably most everyone else here on the board).. who is everybody?
Me.
Okay, so, as I want to know (and probably most everyone else here on the board).. who is everybody?
Me.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:32
ROFL 
Someone needs to put that up on riocar.org with name captions.
Someone needs to put that up on riocar.org with name captions.
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:38
Oh, that was you! (You didn't mention your BBS name in your email!)
From left to right we have: Toby (prolux), Dave, Richard-the-first, me holding the sign, Roger, John Graley (jonnygee), Richard-the-second, Hugo (altman) helping hold the sign, a bit of Mike Crowe (mac) (who's a lot taller than Hugo in real life but the ground slopes deceptively), Mike Seymour, Lucie, Rob, and John Ripley (john). Some of these people have never before been seen on this BBS...
Peter
From left to right we have: Toby (prolux), Dave, Richard-the-first, me holding the sign, Roger, John Graley (jonnygee), Richard-the-second, Hugo (altman) helping hold the sign, a bit of Mike Crowe (mac) (who's a lot taller than Hugo in real life but the ground slopes deceptively), Mike Seymour, Lucie, Rob, and John Ripley (john). Some of these people have never before been seen on this BBS...
Peter
Posted by: revlmwest
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 10:46
I'm praying for Lucie... the one girl with all of you guys. We're talking years of counseling.
Posted by: Terminator
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 11:23
hehe very nice. Looks like Toby didn't really want his picture taken.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 11:46
And all I can think of is 'what state is "CHAPTER"?'
http://www.aaroadtrips.com/vermont/us-002_eb_vermont_shield_marshfield.jpg
Well, that, and when I stayed at a motel in Carlisle, PA, every room had a flyer which read:
"US 11 is a dangerous highway. Do not attempt to cross US 11 on foot."
http://www.aaroadtrips.com/vermont/us-002_eb_vermont_shield_marshfield.jpg
Well, that, and when I stayed at a motel in Carlisle, PA, every room had a flyer which read:
"US 11 is a dangerous highway. Do not attempt to cross US 11 on foot."
Posted by: Heather
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 11:50
I'm praying for Lucie... the one girl with all of you guys. We're talking years of counseling.
Speaking from the same situation, I can tell you that any woman who works with that many guys can definitely handle the men. I'd be praying for the guys instead.
Posted by: revlmwest
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 11:51
Ha ha... Your probably right... my wife doesn't seem to have any trouble working me over.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 11:54
And all I can think of is 'what state is "CHAPTER"?'
Okay, now everyone gets to see how much of a road geek I really am..
State names are no longer placed on any road Marker signs, with one exception.
Sign M4-1, the US Highway sign is to only have the route number, and one of "Business", "Loop", or "Spur" on the sign itself. Other auxilliarry markers allowed are the standard directional (North, South, East, West), as well as "Alt", "Detour", "Jct", "To", among a few other less-known ones.
The last Marker sign to have state names on it were M1-1, the Interstate signs. Only Georgia (possible one other state) puts their state name on it, and the sign's designation is "M1-1a". Otherwise, they figure that you know what state you're in.
Okay. Shutting up now.
Me.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 12:05
That is a very cool website you have.
Posted by: Dignan
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 12:43
So can you answer the question in that car commercial?
Why does Hawaii have an interstate?
Why does Hawaii have an interstate?
Posted by: JeffS
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 12:51
Why does Hawaii have an interstate?
I believe that this is a funding issue. The federal government pays for it, therefore it is an interstate. This also means that the government can close it and use it for tanks and stuff in times of war. I could be totally wrong about this though.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 13:25
State names are no longer placed on any road Marker signs, with one exception.
Sure, but there are still plenty (well, not that many) old shields around. The Interstate shields, notably, but a few others.
There's still an old PA130 shield on my way home, as well, no longer on PA130!
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 13:34
And of course the colored highway shields also became non-standard, again thanks to the MUTCD.
(More here, and incidentally, this site also has information on the Allegheny County Belt System, a local "we're too cheap to build a beltway" approach to getting people around the county. Note that the upper right corner of the Orange Belt enters Westmoreland County, briefly!)
And then there werethe pre-numbering routes, the most famous of which was the Lincoln Highway.
My county has actually posted historic Lincoln Highway signs along the roads which were the old Lincoln Highway (e.g. not the current US30 bypasses of Greensburg, Latrobe and Ligonier).
(More here, and incidentally, this site also has information on the Allegheny County Belt System, a local "we're too cheap to build a beltway" approach to getting people around the county. Note that the upper right corner of the Orange Belt enters Westmoreland County, briefly!)
And then there werethe pre-numbering routes, the most famous of which was the Lincoln Highway.
My county has actually posted historic Lincoln Highway signs along the roads which were the old Lincoln Highway (e.g. not the current US30 bypasses of Greensburg, Latrobe and Ligonier).
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 13:39
I forgot, a picture of said sign is near the bottom of this page.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:00
Wow. I practically live *on* Lincoln Highway (Business Rt 30) in Chester County, PA. I knew it was pretty historic, but didn't know it stretched all the way the heck out to San Fran.
Neat.
Neat.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:09
I used a good chunk of it when going west to Lincoln, NE, for a wedding a few years back. I left Pittsburgh and didn't get on I-80 until Chicago Heights, IL, or so. I'd sort of like to go explore more of it.
It's changed a lot since I got my license. This place, which sat vacant for a while, burned down about 18 months ago. I haven't been past since.
It's changed a lot since I got my license. This place, which sat vacant for a while, burned down about 18 months ago. I haven't been past since.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:30
Cool. It looks like the kind of road that would be really cool for a "road trip." Looks like it passes through some pretty neat slices of America.
Around here it's also called the Lancaster Turnpike. I found this neat page documenting some of the old highway signs. One of them is now located at this inn which is about a 2 minute walk from my apartment.
Around here it's also called the Lancaster Turnpike. I found this neat page documenting some of the old highway signs. One of them is now located at this inn which is about a 2 minute walk from my apartment.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:41
I met Brian Butko a few times at local functions. I don't really "know" him, but he's an interesting guy.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:42
Cool. It looks like the kind of road that would be really cool for a "road trip." Looks like it passes through some pretty neat slices of America.
So is US50 - I took that all the way from Colorado out to California. One of the lonliest stretches of road, period. (Also a great place to find out how fast your car really CAN go..)
Florida has always been strange on route markers.
For the first time this weekend, I actually saw an auxilliary marker (Those thigs that have like 'North', 'South', 'ALT', 'JCT', etc..) that was labeled "OLD".
The MUTCD guys keep trying to lock-down things so they're 'standard', and individual states keep coming up with their flavor of things. (I LOVE California's Speed Limit signs. To the point. <g>)
Me.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:44
Sure, but there are still plenty (well, not that many) old shields around. The Interstate shields, notably, but a few others.
Ooh, yeah. I wasn't debating that. Hell, I had a DOT official FROM your state order an Interstate shield with the state name on it.
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:47
I'm seen an "OLD" auxiliary marker somewhere; I wish I knew where.
I'm amused that when future-I-99 opened north from State College recently that US220 was rerouted via US322 and then over that highway to I-80, old US220 became "Alternate" US220 according to signs... which were being posted while I was driving home from the highway opening.
Of course, then there's the whole Shusterway debacle. I-99 is the only interstate whose number was legislated instead of being selected by the AASHTO. Sure, 75, 77, 79 exist to the west, and 81, 83 to the east (85 further south and 87 further north) but 99 is just such a farce.
In reality, 81 should have been 85, and all of what are 83, 85 and 87 should have been 87. There's precedent for disjoint use of numbers: 76 exists in PA/OH and running from 80 down to Denver in the west.
I guess they didn't realize 81 would be so popular, but surely they knew it would have the length it did, which certainly makes it more useful overall than 85 is.
I'm amused that when future-I-99 opened north from State College recently that US220 was rerouted via US322 and then over that highway to I-80, old US220 became "Alternate" US220 according to signs... which were being posted while I was driving home from the highway opening.
Of course, then there's the whole Shusterway debacle. I-99 is the only interstate whose number was legislated instead of being selected by the AASHTO. Sure, 75, 77, 79 exist to the west, and 81, 83 to the east (85 further south and 87 further north) but 99 is just such a farce.
In reality, 81 should have been 85, and all of what are 83, 85 and 87 should have been 87. There's precedent for disjoint use of numbers: 76 exists in PA/OH and running from 80 down to Denver in the west.
I guess they didn't realize 81 would be so popular, but surely they knew it would have the length it did, which certainly makes it more useful overall than 85 is.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:49
That is a very cool website you have.
Thanks.
I do it in my spare time so it's not quite finished.. (Dunno if it will ever be, actually..)
I started out getting signs and signals for Arcades, Amusement Parks, and Businesses that needed stuff like that because most times it's not readily available without a contract and minimum order. Since I started online, I've been getting alot of custom orders and such; some of them extremely strange.
Me.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:52
That's pretty much it in a nutshell - Funding.
However, that's a long-standing joke about Interstates and Hawaii. I hear people are still trying to find the tunnel from San Fran.
Me.
However, that's a long-standing joke about Interstates and Hawaii. I hear people are still trying to find the tunnel from San Fran.
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 14:58
I don't know any PennDOT people other than in the mass transit bureau, anymore. My brother interned there.
We like our state name on the shields here. I think there's an interstate shield with the state name on a BGS somewhere in the middle of the state. Might even be an older sign with the reflective button copy.
And speaking of such signs, remember this?
We like our state name on the shields here. I think there's an interstate shield with the state name on a BGS somewhere in the middle of the state. Might even be an older sign with the reflective button copy.
And speaking of such signs, remember this?
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:01
And I reminded myself... I still haven't found a source for those darn reflective buttons. I had a sign in mind, but without the reflectors...
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:01
Heh.
I'm assuming everyone knows the 'rule' for numbering -
2-digit odd numbers are North/South routes, 2-digit evens are East-West.
3-digit starting with a odd number are Spurs, 3-digit evens are bypasses/perimiters.
Does this I-99 follow THAT numbering scheme?
But yeah, there are errors in a few places - "I-220" is used more than once - In Alabama, and Louisiana, I think.
(And then, on top of it all, there's just confusion about many of the signs, espically the Ped Zone/ Ped Crossing and the School Zone / School Crossing. In Georgia, here, they've gone out of their way to screw those up, which while it dosn't really affect anything, it does if you happen to get a ticket for some reason. Wrong size/shape/legend signs can get you out of traffic violations in a heartbeat.)
Me.
I'm assuming everyone knows the 'rule' for numbering -
2-digit odd numbers are North/South routes, 2-digit evens are East-West.
3-digit starting with a odd number are Spurs, 3-digit evens are bypasses/perimiters.
Does this I-99 follow THAT numbering scheme?
But yeah, there are errors in a few places - "I-220" is used more than once - In Alabama, and Louisiana, I think.
(And then, on top of it all, there's just confusion about many of the signs, espically the Ped Zone/ Ped Crossing and the School Zone / School Crossing. In Georgia, here, they've gone out of their way to screw those up, which while it dosn't really affect anything, it does if you happen to get a ticket for some reason. Wrong size/shape/legend signs can get you out of traffic violations in a heartbeat.)
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:07
99 is at least north-south. Of course, currently it touches *no* other interstates. It ends shy of I-70/I-76 (the highway continues south crossing over 70/76, but there's no direct interchange, a consequence of an earlier decision which was that direct connections between the free Interstate system and toll highways were to be avoided) and currently does not extend north to I-80, though the missing link between end I-99 and the western portion of the bypass around State College (the Mount Nittany Expressway) is at least half under construction now.
I-99 is eventually expected to reach I-86 (former New York 17) at the 86/US15 interchange in Corning. Substantial portions of US-220 and US-15 between I-80 and I-86 are already upgraded, but the I-180 interchange at Williamsport has a substandard ramp which will need to be replaced in what will become northbound I-99.
I-99 is eventually expected to reach I-86 (former New York 17) at the 86/US15 interchange in Corning. Substantial portions of US-220 and US-15 between I-80 and I-86 are already upgraded, but the I-180 interchange at Williamsport has a substandard ramp which will need to be replaced in what will become northbound I-99.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:07
And speaking of such signs, remember this?
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.
That had to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard of. And the guy's making himself out to be a celebrity. I love it.
(Not realted to what he did, but those type of signs are *^(@_ expensive. On the positive side, when done right (which is rare) they are extremely easy to 'change' so that the sign still looks 'normal' and unchanged to the public's eye.)
Me.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:10
And I reminded myself... I still haven't found a source for those darn reflective buttons. I had a sign in mind, but without the reflectors...
They are extremely hard to find.
I'm STILL trying to find a contractor who will still make the button-type signs, at least one type. (There are several different types of the 'buttons'.)
For the BGS, it's easy, since the sheeing reflective still isn't that good for large projects like that, but for smaller road signs, it just isn't done anymore.
<shrug> I'd like to get a few made with the buttons as well.
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:13
If you find a source, I'd love to hear about it.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:20
Ah, good ol' Bud Shyster. Another fine example of a good Pennsylvania politician.
The best part is that the I-99 signs are up already, but they're covered up. I think that between now and whenever it officially becomes I-99, Bill Shuster will probably lose an election, and someone in the state will have the sense to rename it. I think it should really be re-numbered to be an auxiliary of I-76. As far as I know, neither I-976 or I-776 are taken
Edit: Hmm. Didn't know it never ended up getting connected to 76. Strange. Well then once it gets connected to I-80, it should probably be an auxiliary of I-80.
The best part is that the I-99 signs are up already, but they're covered up. I think that between now and whenever it officially becomes I-99, Bill Shuster will probably lose an election, and someone in the state will have the sense to rename it. I think it should really be re-numbered to be an auxiliary of I-76. As far as I know, neither I-976 or I-776 are taken
Edit: Hmm. Didn't know it never ended up getting connected to 76. Strange. Well then once it gets connected to I-80, it should probably be an auxiliary of I-80.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:24
Once it connects to I-80, it has some legitimacy as a 2di, but the problem is it will connect *only* to 80 unless they relocate the Bedford interchange on 76.
In this state, only 180 and 380 are taken. (interestingly PA380 near and in Pittsburgh is SR400 to deal with I-380 being SR380)
In this state, only 180 and 380 are taken. (interestingly PA380 near and in Pittsburgh is SR400 to deal with I-380 being SR380)
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:27
I really want to steal an I-99 sign. I think it should be the "Wayne Gretzky Highway."
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:29
So steal the "Bud Shuster Highway" signs instead, and get some "Wayne Gretzky Highway" signs made...
I'd say April 1, 2004 would be a good day to try it...
I'd say April 1, 2004 would be a good day to try it...
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:31
hehe. I've had way too many close calls with regards to stealing signs... I think I'm retired. Just like The Great One.
Here is one of the innocent victims of the I-99 project. I don't think the club ever recovered from its forced relocation.
Here is one of the innocent victims of the I-99 project. I don't think the club ever recovered from its forced relocation.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:33
PennDOT actually seems to take about as dim a view of I-99 as I do. Only one overhead sign has an I-99 shield (that's uncovered. The project by State College has more). All the others still say US220 and there are I-99 signs on metal poles next to the gantries.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:36
They got moved halfway down the hill, right? They looked like they were doing ok last time I drove by, but it's been a while.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:37
But I'm sure Bud's son's car dealership is doing quite well, and, after all, that's what we all want out of our Interstate roads.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 15:52
If you find a source, I'd love to hear about it.
I will let you know.
(And if we haven't put the other 98% of the BBS to sleep with this thread, I'll be impressed.)
Me.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 16:06
Hmm. I was just up at Penn State this weekend, but my route there doesn't take me near the place. The last I heard, the move had caused them some legal problems due to the way they were serving alcohol. Come to think of it, I should have asked my friend who lives up there and was an.. uh.. "entertainer" there for a couple years, I'm sure she's still plugged in to what's going on there.
Posted by: Ezekiel
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 16:22
Asleep? Not at all. It's the odd threads here that make it so interesting.
-Zeke
-Zeke
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 18:38
I have an idea for someone who might know. Maybe I'll remember to... ask.
Posted by: canuckInOR
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 20:40
Some of these people have never before been seen on this BBS...
Which just begs the question, of those who have never been seen on this BBS, what functions do they serve in the Empeg Kingdom?
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 15/04/2003 20:52
I'll Bitt myself.
"I'm seen". WTF?
"I'm seen". WTF?
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 03:01
"Detour"Any road up, it's a classic bit of work. I don't know if it would give the same impression to people who see it every day, but, speaking as a Brit, even the typeface on US road signs is immediately distinctive and pure Americana. That thing would be going in the display cabinet right by Empeg Serial Number One, except of course that the display cabinet isn't big enough...
Peter
Posted by: boxer
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 04:12
Denon were damned fast getting the barbed wire fence up to keep you people loyal.
Posted by: rob
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 04:13
Which just begs the question, of those who have never been seen on this BBS, what functions do they serve in the Empeg Kingdom?
Everyone in the photo is a software developer except for myself and Lucie. Lucie is responsible for pre-QA software testing and also replacing all of my clunky old web tools with slick new web tools. I mostly just hang out and read the BBS.
Rob
Everyone in the photo is a software developer except for myself and Lucie. Lucie is responsible for pre-QA software testing and also replacing all of my clunky old web tools with slick new web tools. I mostly just hang out and read the BBS.
Rob
Posted by: BartDG
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 04:52
I thought you also flew to the rescue of maidens in distress?
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 08:09
Any road up, it's a classic bit of work. I don't know if it would give the same impression to people who see it every day, but, speaking as a Brit, even the typeface on US road signs is immediately distinctive and pure Americana. That thing would be going in the display cabinet right by Empeg Serial Number One, except of course that the display cabinet isn't big enough...
They were actually trying to change the font, at one point - there was a 'new' one in development at a university over here, but I'm not sure it went over well, because people were too used to the one we've had for ages.
But I agree. The font in multi-dimensional. Stretch it a little, put it in brown, and you immediatly thing you're on an "old" highway..
Me.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 11:44
Denon were damned fast getting the barbed wire fence up to keep you people loyal.Damn, good one. I wanted to comment on the fence but couldn't think of anything clever.
Posted by: blitz
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 13:11
Damn, good one. I wanted to comment on the fence but couldn't think of anything clever.
I was going to ask if they were fenced in or fenced out.
I was going to ask if they were fenced in or fenced out.
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 14:45
I was going to ask if they were fenced in or fenced out.Fortunately, the rather forbidding fence belongs not to Empeg Towers, but to the disused (and about to be demolished) warehouse opposite. But we thought it added a certain ambience to the photo...
Peter
Posted by: canuckInOR
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 19:43
I thought you also flew to the rescue of maidens in distress?
Maybe that explains the rose amongst thorns?
Posted by: jimhogan
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 20:04
the rather forbidding fence belongs not to Empeg Towers, but to the disused (and about to be demolished) warehouse opposite.
Well, dang! Where the Hell are y'all gonna crash now???
If I can do anything to help, just let me know!
Well, dang! Where the Hell are y'all gonna crash now???
If I can do anything to help, just let me know!
Posted by: davec
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 20:09
I mostly just hang out and read the BBS.
Heh... Me too.
Heh... Me too.
Posted by: lectric
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 20:22
Exactly what are button-type signs? I work at the City Hall here and can get pretty much any sign made that they have the metal form for.
Oh, and as to the Interstate in Hawaii question goes; If it's an interstate, the gov't can require that 1 out of every 4 miles is straight, in case of an emergency airplane landing.
Oh, and as to the Interstate in Hawaii question goes; If it's an interstate, the gov't can require that 1 out of every 4 miles is straight, in case of an emergency airplane landing.
Posted by: robricc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 16/04/2003 22:08
I am extremely interested in visiting Centralia, PA. Does anyone know if it still looks like that? Most of the pics seem to be from the mid to late 1990s.
Centralia looks close to Pottsville, PA (home of Yuengling). Kill two birds with one stone. Brewery tour followed by a surreal adventure.
Centralia looks close to Pottsville, PA (home of Yuengling). Kill two birds with one stone. Brewery tour followed by a surreal adventure.
Posted by: boxer
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 02:14
I thought you also flew to the rescue of maidens in distress?
I think it's probably a tax dodge:
I.R. Inspector: but surely this expense claim for flights to Bali is purely for a holiday
Rob: No, I was flying to the rescue of a maiden in distress, that's deductible isn't it?
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 11:13
I am extremely interested in visiting Centralia, PA. Does anyone know if it still looks like that? Most of the pics seem to be from the mid to late 1990s.
Oooh... I found my next road trip. I love things like that - abandoned factories, towns and &tc... One of the reasons I miss living out in Colorado. I literally lived 100 feet from an abandoned mine.
Me.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 11:27
Exactly what are button-type signs? I work at the City Hall here and can get pretty much any sign made that they have the metal form for.
"Button-Type" signs are also known as 'Cats Eye" or "Marble" signs.
For the BGS (Big Green Signs), they are mounted in the removable letters. So instead of the whole sign being reflective, only the cats-eyes are. Sometimes they're still used (in the long run, saves the DOT money, don't have to light-up the signs with catseyes.)
For normal signs, they got phased out looong ago, because of cost.
For a good exmple, go here.
They're not too easy to make nowadays, with the pre-fab aluminum blanks, since it requires two sheets, one cut out for the eyes, the other for backing.. But, they look darn cool.
Me.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 11:33
I have to say say that Centralia, PA would be a pretty ridiculous place for an empeg meet, but because it's only 2hrs away, I'm game. Especially if a side-trip to the Yuengling brewery was involved.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 11:47
Okay, this is off topic, but you seem like you would know.
Around here, there have been a number of new traffic signals put up, or maybe just had their bulbs replaced, and they, especially the green ones, are super-bright. They're also of a significantly different shade of green than the old ones.
It's my guess that these are lit by an array of large LEDs instead of a more traditional bulb, but I don't have any proof of that. Do you have any idea?
Around here, there have been a number of new traffic signals put up, or maybe just had their bulbs replaced, and they, especially the green ones, are super-bright. They're also of a significantly different shade of green than the old ones.
It's my guess that these are lit by an array of large LEDs instead of a more traditional bulb, but I don't have any proof of that. Do you have any idea?
Posted by: mtempsch
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 11:58
The lights over here (Sweden) are slowly being changed over to LED instead of incandescent (no new bulbs are installed as replacements - whenever a replacement is required a LED module is installed instead).
(another link)
If you look at one from close range you can make out the inividual LEDs - the brightness isn't uniform, but "dotty"
/Michael
(another link)
If you look at one from close range you can make out the inividual LEDs - the brightness isn't uniform, but "dotty"
/Michael
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 12:04
you can make out the inividual LEDs - the brightness isn't uniform, but "dotty"Yeah. That's what led me to my conclusion. Given that they're manufactured, I guess it makes sense that they'd be being used here.
There's one intersection that I frequent at night, though, and it's way too bright. It's almost blinding.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 12:45
It's my guess that these are lit by an array of large LEDs instead of a more traditional bulb, but I don't have any proof of that.In my area of the country, it's extremely obvious when they've replaced a bulb with an LED array (something that's becoming more and more common around here). You can see the individual LEDs because they don't have a diffusion lens over them.
I seem to recall several years ago that they were replacing bulbs in some traffic signals around here with brighter ones, and those weren't LEDs, they were just really bright bulbs.
So I don't know if you're seeing one or the other... It could be either...
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 13:05
but I don't have any proof of that. Do you have any idea?
Watch the light closely when it turns on and off. There is a discernable lag as tungsten bulbs "slowly" ramp up to full brightness, and back down to full off. This lag is only milliseconds, but if you had a tungsten traffic light and an LED traffic light side by side, you would see the difference.
tanstaafl.
Watch the light closely when it turns on and off. There is a discernable lag as tungsten bulbs "slowly" ramp up to full brightness, and back down to full off. This lag is only milliseconds, but if you had a tungsten traffic light and an LED traffic light side by side, you would see the difference.
tanstaafl.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 13:07
Yes!
I couldn't put my finger on it until you said it, but the change between red and green is much more instantaneous than before.
I couldn't put my finger on it until you said it, but the change between red and green is much more instantaneous than before.
Posted by: jimhogan
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 13:23
I couldn't put my finger on it until you said it, but the change between red and green is much more instantaneous than before.
Now this could either put you off your game or you could use it to your advantage...."Officer, the light just...changed! I didn't have a chance!!"
I love LEDs. One interesting bit, is the difference between countries. In the U.S., I don't generally have a problem seeing typical incandescent stop lights.....higher-wattage bulbs, burning all that good, cheap Iraqi oil, no problem. In at least some other countries (France and Germany being the countries I'm most familiar with) some of the stoplights (including the small, eye-level secondary lights) are *very* dim and hard to see, especially the yellows. Sometimes you have to wait for the red to know that the yellow had lit up. I always assumed that this was a matter of economy -- that using lower-power consumption bulbs was the rule. With gradual LED replacement, those lights will be a lot easier to see.
edit: ...and seeing a lot of LED lights as side marker lights on tractor-trailer rigs where fuel-consumption of those hundreds of lights is an issue. Also very popular on boats for navigation and interior lights where battery capacity is an issue. Did I say I love LEDs?
Now this could either put you off your game or you could use it to your advantage...."Officer, the light just...changed! I didn't have a chance!!"
I love LEDs. One interesting bit, is the difference between countries. In the U.S., I don't generally have a problem seeing typical incandescent stop lights.....higher-wattage bulbs, burning all that good, cheap Iraqi oil, no problem. In at least some other countries (France and Germany being the countries I'm most familiar with) some of the stoplights (including the small, eye-level secondary lights) are *very* dim and hard to see, especially the yellows. Sometimes you have to wait for the red to know that the yellow had lit up. I always assumed that this was a matter of economy -- that using lower-power consumption bulbs was the rule. With gradual LED replacement, those lights will be a lot easier to see.
edit: ...and seeing a lot of LED lights as side marker lights on tractor-trailer rigs where fuel-consumption of those hundreds of lights is an issue. Also very popular on boats for navigation and interior lights where battery capacity is an issue. Did I say I love LEDs?
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 17:25
Haha. It's about.. a day's drive for me, but I'd do it. (Specially since we in the south here haven't HAD any 'meets'..)
And definately yes on the brewery!
Me.
And definately yes on the brewery!
Me.
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 17:35
As everyone else has confirmed, yeah, those are probably LEDs.
LEDs are much cheaper in operating costs, but have their downsides, too. (One, as you pointed out - sometimes they're brighter than hell, even in daylight.)
Yellow are still rare, because of the actuall color needed and brighness.
They're also getting beffer at the technology behind them - down here in Atlanta they've started using SMD RED LED lights - so, so many small SMD RED LEDs that when the light is on, you CAN'T see the individual LEDs.
For a while, there were NEON TUBE replacements, but they're no longer used much, except in Pedestrian heads, because life isn't as great, high risk of shock due to the transformer, and if water got into a head, then you got a high-voltage short.
Another problem are the installers and traffic engineers - several companies make 2-color lights, for left-turns and such. (Arrows in Green and Yellow) Problem is they only take up one signal head for two colors. This leads to driver confusion.
One signal I have in my garage has LEDs in it. I rarely turn it on because my neighbors coplain of the light it gives off.
Me.
LEDs are much cheaper in operating costs, but have their downsides, too. (One, as you pointed out - sometimes they're brighter than hell, even in daylight.)
Yellow are still rare, because of the actuall color needed and brighness.
They're also getting beffer at the technology behind them - down here in Atlanta they've started using SMD RED LED lights - so, so many small SMD RED LEDs that when the light is on, you CAN'T see the individual LEDs.
For a while, there were NEON TUBE replacements, but they're no longer used much, except in Pedestrian heads, because life isn't as great, high risk of shock due to the transformer, and if water got into a head, then you got a high-voltage short.
Another problem are the installers and traffic engineers - several companies make 2-color lights, for left-turns and such. (Arrows in Green and Yellow) Problem is they only take up one signal head for two colors. This leads to driver confusion.
One signal I have in my garage has LEDs in it. I rarely turn it on because my neighbors coplain of the light it gives off.
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 22:26
Here's another example. Look carefully at the letters and you can see the reflector buttons.
Note that this interchange was number 180 in the early days of I-79, when PA had mileage-based exits. It was renumbered to 41. It has since been renumbered back to 180.
I think this is stupid. The exit after 3 should not be 7. Other people disagree. I bet tfabris, Mr "if you ask for coke and get pepsi don't whine" likes it
Someday we'll go metric and we'll have to pay for yet another conversion. Bah.
Note that this interchange was number 180 in the early days of I-79, when PA had mileage-based exits. It was renumbered to 41. It has since been renumbered back to 180.
I think this is stupid. The exit after 3 should not be 7. Other people disagree. I bet tfabris, Mr "if you ask for coke and get pepsi don't whine" likes it
Someday we'll go metric and we'll have to pay for yet another conversion. Bah.
Posted by: msaeger
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 22:33
Mr "if you ask for coke and get pepsi don't whine"
now that would be a good title the heck with faq master
now that would be a good title the heck with faq master
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 22:35
Someday we'll go metric and we'll have to pay for yet another conversion. Bah.Given the recently-recharged disdain for the French that exists in America, I don't see "Systeme Internationale" taking off in the U. S. of A. anytime soon.
I also hate mileage-based exit numbers. The one good aspect I can think of (besides the obvious "you know that if you get on at exit 150 and you're getting off at exit 176, you're travelling 26 miles" benefit) is that you don't have to re-number if exits are added. This actually happens on occasion. The way it's usually dealt with is to add suffixes to the exit numbers like "Exit 7A" or whatever. But that's really lame. The mileage exit numbers would seem to avoid this, unless somehow there are 2 distinct exits within the same mile.
The mileage numbering is REALLY screwy on the PA Turnpike, because of the Northeast Extension. What I think they're doing is taking the easternmost mile number (let's say it's 310) and making that the start of the NE Extension mile numbers. So if you get on the PA Turnpike near where the Northeast Extension comes in, and jump on the NE Extension, you'll "warp" past like 100 miles. Stupid.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 22:41
I assume since you live at that end of the state you noticed the westbound-only EZPass-only slip ramp they added between Fort Washington and Willow Grove only ever had a mileage-based number?
I think the easternmost mile number is 360.
I think the easternmost mile number is 360.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 17/04/2003 22:46
Does your route there take you up to Lewistown through the narrows, then up 322 past that reservoir? Tonight on my way home from New York (well, I was only driving from Trenton; I'm not insane enough to commute into Manhattan by car) I decided to divert for some ice cream.
Of course, I forgot to look as I went by to see how busy the End Zone looked.
Tonight on my way home from New York (well, I was only driving from Trenton; I'm not insane enough to commute into Manhattan by car) I decided to divert for some ice cream.
Of course, I forgot to look as I went by to see how busy the End Zone looked.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 00:25
I bet tfabris, Mr "if you ask for coke and get pepsi don't whine" likes itWow, that's like, the longest grudge I've seen anyone hold.
Posted by: number6
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 02:38
In reply to:
I bet tfabris, Mr "if you ask for coke and get pepsi don't whine" likes it
You say that like its a bad thing(TM)
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 05:17
I assume since you live at that end of the state you noticed the westbound-only EZPass-only slip ramp they added between Fort Washington and Willow Grove only ever had a mileage-based number?Yeah. I live right off Exit 23, so I don't pass by it every day, but I have seen that exit. I remember thinking to myself that it would have been pretty funny if it was like "Exit 26.5" or something like that.
The idea of EZPass-only exits seems really... wrong to me. I'm not sure why. I *guess* EZPass is a good thing, but I don't have it, and if I lived anywhere near that exit, I wouldn't feel very good about being required to buy into it just to use the exit. Seems undemocratic to me, somehow.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 05:22
Yeah, I hop right on the Turnpike at Exit 23, then get off at the Harrisburg East exit. A hop, skip, and a jump from I-83 to I-81 to US 322, then about an hour and a half of 322's twists and turns, and I'm in Happy Valley. About a 2.5 hour journey all-told. The ridiculously cheap price of beer makes it worth the journey, and the ridiculously hot 18-25 year old females make it a no-brainer.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 08:55
I remembered you when I asked for coke a few days ago and got this sickly-sweet brown crap
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 08:55
Not whining is *always* a bad thing.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 09:03
I look at it like this. I assume I'm giving away the $35 deposit (which isn't strictly true, because they take tolls out of it until you get to about $10, then bill for some more) in exchange for saved time. I've already saved at least an hour and probably more by using several interchanges which always suck frequently:
-New Stanton/PA Turnpike
-Philadelphia/PA Turnpike (the route 1 interchange)
-Cranberry/PA Turnpike (though this one won't matter much longer)
-Route 128 Toll Barrier/MassPike
I value my time such that an hour costs way more than $35, so I come out ahead. The only problem is now it doesn't cost anything to use toll highways in my head anymore, since I don't notice that I'm using the money;)
I understand why they did it. It doesn't require a large land footprint or any staffing whatsoever. The booths and the EZPass equipment were the only costs beyond the land for the accesses, which may have already been there (they seem to keep a lot around for getting e.g. emergency vehicles on and off the road).
-New Stanton/PA Turnpike
-Philadelphia/PA Turnpike (the route 1 interchange)
-Cranberry/PA Turnpike (though this one won't matter much longer)
-Route 128 Toll Barrier/MassPike
I value my time such that an hour costs way more than $35, so I come out ahead. The only problem is now it doesn't cost anything to use toll highways in my head anymore, since I don't notice that I'm using the money;)
I understand why they did it. It doesn't require a large land footprint or any staffing whatsoever. The booths and the EZPass equipment were the only costs beyond the land for the accesses, which may have already been there (they seem to keep a lot around for getting e.g. emergency vehicles on and off the road).
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 09:08
then about an hour and a half of 322's twists and turns,
Either I drive faster than you, or you go when there's actually traffic. I think the sign after you get on 22/322 from 81 says it's 80 miles to State College.
I got to Trenton at 5:45, then had to walk to the car, leave the garage and get to US1. I got to the creamery at 9:01pm.
Posted by: rearviewmirror
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:06
I got to the creamery at 9:01pm
<OT>
Ah creamery.. Damn I miss that. My trips to SC were complete only after a visit to the creamery. (I used to drive there from NYC once a month and didn't miss a single home game for two years). I still get goose bumps when I listen to Gary Glitter (Rock & Roll Part II. Btw is there a Part I?) and imagine myself sitting in the middle of 100,000 screaming Nittany Lion fans. Memories..
</OT>
~Yogi.
<OT>
Ah creamery.. Damn I miss that. My trips to SC were complete only after a visit to the creamery. (I used to drive there from NYC once a month and didn't miss a single home game for two years). I still get goose bumps when I listen to Gary Glitter (Rock & Roll Part II. Btw is there a Part I?) and imagine myself sitting in the middle of 100,000 screaming Nittany Lion fans. Memories..
</OT>
~Yogi.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:07
Oh, I get the concept. I just don't use the Turnpike enough to make it worth my while. It makes sense, really.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:08
My usual course of action is to get a milkshake, then drink it while perusing the ice cream flavors; When I finish it, grab about 5 gallons of ice cream, buy it, go back and cram it in a cooler chest in the car, and go home.
My fridge now has 5 gallons of ice cream. I'll keep 2 half gallons, take one to my parents' on Sunday, and take most or all of the rest to work Monday and feed my cow orkers.
My fridge now has 5 gallons of ice cream. I'll keep 2 half gallons, take one to my parents' on Sunday, and take most or all of the rest to work Monday and feed my cow orkers.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:09
Either I drive faster than you, or you go when there's actually traffic. I think the sign after you get on 22/322 from 81 says it's 80 miles to State College.Probably a little of both. I usually manage to hit traffic in the 83->81->322 mess. Even with smooth sailing, I stay around 75 in 65mph zones and 65 in 55mph zones, since I've got some points on my license already and don't want any more.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:15
When I got it I used the turnpike between Irwin and New Stanton (50 cents), about once a month. I got it for the "toy value", and on May 15 when the system was supposed to be deployed I waited around at midnight, and nothing happened. So I came back in the morning and it was operational.
If only they'd get it working on their various extensions, I'd be happy. It would be nice to use it to jump from US22 Delmont to PA130 Jeannette while the portion of US22 closer to Pittsburgh is, um, screwed, for the next several years.
If only they'd get it working on their various extensions, I'd be happy. It would be nice to use it to jump from US22 Delmont to PA130 Jeannette while the portion of US22 closer to Pittsburgh is, um, screwed, for the next several years.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:17
Actually I don't go much faster than that, usually. Must just have been a lucky night
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:19
and feed my cow orkers.Perfect typo!
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:27
Perfect typo!I think he meant it deliberately. Surely you've read "The Dilbert Principle"?
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 10:32
Surely you've read "The Dilbert Principle"?Surely, but I last read it back in '96 or '97 when it first came out, so the reference wasn't fresh in my mind.
MA, P, NTSH...
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 13:09
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 13:17
I find it interesting that the Cow Orker entry contains a cross reference to Filk. I think they cross reference it because the term Filk was originally a typo of "Folk" that stuck (like their other cross references such as Newsfroup).
Posted by: cushman
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 13:41
Haha.. google is great. From dbrashear's link:
cow orker n. [Usenet] n. fortuitous typo for co-worker, widely used in Usenet, with perhaps a hint that orking cows is illegal. This term was popularized by Scott Adams (the creator of Dilbert) but already appears in the January 1996 version of the scary devil monastery FAQ. There are plausible reports that it was in use on talk.bizarre as early as 1992. Compare hing, grilf, filk, newsfroup.A quick Google search turned up a post from 1989.
Posted by: canuckInOR
Re: Sign Of The Times - 18/04/2003 19:37
Yeah, I don't think Scott Adams ever claimed to have invented the word, but he did popularize it. Quite likely someon suggested it to him as a word similar to induhvidual.
Posted by: schofiel
Re: Sign Of The Times - 22/04/2003 12:08
Seeing this now, even in the light of current events and insider knowledge, makes me pretty sad. 
May I say guys (and you all know who you are), no matter how it all comes out in the end, I really hope that it all comes out OK. To see one of the most effective, efficiently grown, and efficiently managed software teams it has ever been my priviledge to be associated with broken up for business reasons, or infighting between warring market opponents would break my heart.
"Is there no truth in beauty?"
PS. The milk floats behind you are for sale, along with batteries and chargers. HINT: Off peak electricity, no road tax, low insurance, 20m range.
PPS Who took the photo? David?
May I say guys (and you all know who you are), no matter how it all comes out in the end, I really hope that it all comes out OK. To see one of the most effective, efficiently grown, and efficiently managed software teams it has ever been my priviledge to be associated with broken up for business reasons, or infighting between warring market opponents would break my heart.
"Is there no truth in beauty?"
PS. The milk floats behind you are for sale, along with batteries and chargers. HINT: Off peak electricity, no road tax, low insurance, 20m range.
PPS Who took the photo? David?
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 22/04/2003 13:38
"Is there no truth in beauty?"Perhaps. At the very least, there's usually beauty in truth. But the sign and its times beg a different question: is there no money in beauty? The question's still a bit over my head though, so I'll just say that, to me, achieving 4,500 car player sales and failing as a business would still be more fun than achieving 4,500,000 sales of something crap but staying in business. Not that we particularly did fail as a business this time: Sonicblue was crushed by the debts of a dot-com hubris that had little to do with Empeg, or even Rio.
PS. The milk floats behind you are for sale, along with batteries and chargers. HINT: Off peak electricity, no road tax, low insurance, 20m range.What, the Dairy Crest ones? Sadly, the only people at Empeg who buy vehicles on a whim are Rob and Hugo, neither of whom, I suspect, would be happy with the performance of a milk-float. Although I guess John might buy one if he thought he could overclock it.
PPS Who took the photo? David?We borrowed some bloke from the company downstairs. What with giant lorries with loads of recycled paper belting down Swann's Road far too fast, and lunatic motorcyclists belting the wrong way up Swann's Road far too fast, he nearly paid the ultimate price to bring you that image. It's the only photo there is of all thirteen current Sonicblue Cambridge employees.
I really hope that it all comes out OK.Well, we're all hoping the same about all your woes of the moment, too...
Peter
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 22/04/2003 18:33
Sadly, the only people at Empeg who buy vehicles on a whim are Rob and Hugo
Sadly in the sense that none of the rest of you are that "liquid"?
(Neither am I. My brother, who makes less but doesn't squander it like I do, is.)
Posted by: peter
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 01:50
Sadly in the sense that none of the rest of you are that "liquid"?Sadly for Dairy Crest, in the sense that if the rest of us had money burning holes in our pockets, we wouldn't be so likely to spend it on random vehicles: I'd spend it on my house, Roger'd buy gadgets... actually, we'd all buy gadgets.
And I guess I'd better add, just in case D&M read that last post, that selling 4,500,000 of something as good as the car-player and making a pigging fortune would of course be best of all...
Peter
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 09:12
Speaking of buying gadgets, I can't say enough good about this.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 09:17
Do you own one or do you just like the concept?
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 09:28
I bought one this weekend.
Posted by: JeffS
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 09:46
I've been very skeptical of these, so let us know how it works out in the long run.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 09:50
I know someone who's had 1 for over a year, and got a second about 6 months ago. So far he's had no problems. At what I was paying to have my yard dealt with it will pay for itself in 2 years. If it lasts no longer, I'll salvage parts and get a new one.
So far, it works.
So far, it works.
Posted by: altman
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 10:31
This one looked cuter:
http://www.mowbot.co.uk/
...in that it can find its "hutch" to recharge itself, and you can program a timer so it'll just nip out and mow the lawn when necessary. There's even a rain sensor option so it'll automatically go inside when it rains
Hugo
http://www.mowbot.co.uk/
...in that it can find its "hutch" to recharge itself, and you can program a timer so it'll just nip out and mow the lawn when necessary. There's even a rain sensor option so it'll automatically go inside when it rains
Hugo
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 10:42
Posted by: foxtrot_xray
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 11:42
I don't believe that that one's available in the US, unfortunately. The Husqvarna one is, and is auto-recharging. The Toro one appears to be a rebadged Robomower.
I'm SURE one of out Empeg friends on the other side of the pond would pick one up and mail it to us.. It *DOES* say it's for 110/220, so they must have thought ahead at some point.
(Not that we use 220, but..)
Me.
Posted by: Daria
Re: Sign Of The Times - 23/04/2003 12:16
The Toro is a rebadged Robomower, there's a press release on the Friendly Robotics site about it.