Empeg future?

The empeg's future is a small one. Most of us here don't think that Alpine or any other manufacturer is going to ever make a better device for listening to your own music collection in the car.

They will certainly make flashier ones, ones with bigger and better screens, ones with HD radio, ones with satelite radio, ones with navigation systems capable of guiding a spacegoing probe, but when it comes down to it, once you've learned how to use your empeg to the fullest extent, it's going to be far more powerful than any interface designed for selling stereos on the wall at best buy. Higherarcical playlists, tweak order, bookmarks, custom shuffles and wendy filters are all featurers that are probably not likely to see the light of day until AI gets to the point where you're talking with your car and asking it to play something that suits your mood, not interacting with the stereo.

At least, that's my guess. I'd love to be proved wrong. The car PC crowd may work out something comparable sooner, but I'm not holding my breath.

Matthew

Posted by: schofiel

Re: Empeg future? - 24/05/2006 17:18

Ha! No chance of that, Toby's working for us....

Posted by: loren

Re: Empeg future? - 24/05/2006 20:27

Quote:
...and locally we should check out Tornado.

Been there, cool place. I had no idea that there are beers that, akin to a wine bar, are incredibly expensive.

Posted by: andym

Re: Empeg future? - 24/05/2006 20:45

Congrats Hugo!

Now I definitely won't be missing the bbq in July.

Posted by: altman

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 07:07

I don't see how that rules anything out

Hugo

Posted by: Half_Geek

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 08:40

Didn't I read somewhere that the new Noble M15 had an iPod connection as standard? Is this just coincidence!?

Posted by: altman

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 08:42

Definitely just coincidence! When the M12 was being serviced a few weeks back I asked to have a look at the M15 and got taken into the top secret area ("don't look at anything except the painted one").

The M15 definitely looks better in the flesh than in pictures, but I'm really not sure on the slab-sides at the back - the M14 was much more my taste if they'd sorted the rear lights out. The interior was ok, but again I think I preferred the M14. Definitely more boot space in the M15 - and the lower mounted engine & all the other race-bred tweaks they've put in will make it a real monster!

Hugo

Posted by: Half_Geek

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 08:58

I would agree on the M15 back - the sharper haunches give it a very wide Testarossa-ish look to me, which is not my cup of tea. Oh to have to choose between M12s, 14s and 15s!

So, did you peek at the unpainted stuff?! And what kind of courtesy car do you get when you have a Noble serviced!!

Posted by: altman

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 12:55

No, I didn't peek

No courtesy car at all, in fact. Had to go and rent one (the train is so convoluted between Hinckley and Cambridge that if I'd come back that way I'd have about half an hour before I had to get the train back...). Not really excellent service from that point of view, but £24 for a rental Fiesta sport is ok!

Hugo

Posted by: rjf

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 14:56

First off, congrats!

Secondly, having been an early (and continuing) fan[boy] of empeg, and an owner of 4 generations of iPod's, I have the following observation to offer...

The iPod is wildly successful because it LACKS many features. This is the success of Jobs and company. They turned the game around. Prior to the iPod, everyone was competing with how many features they could cram into a pocket sized player. What we ended up with was players with many external switches and ports, and very complicated and intimidating user interfaces, that took a lot of care and feeding. Players perfect for engineers and serious geeks, but completely useless to the average person.

The iPod changed all that. Everytime I use my iPod and I pine for some esoteric feature that I used to have on my empeg or rio500 or whatever, I remember that it's a feature I might only use once in a blue moon, and if I kept adding each one the day to day use of my iPod would soon be unmanagable.

Good luck Hugo, I am sure you'll kick ass and we'll all reap the fruits of your labor!

Cheers,
Ron

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 18:34

It's pretty easy to hide advanced configuration from the average user while still allowing the "power user" access to it.

Otherwise, I agree.

Well, except for the fact that iPods are now chock full of bells and whistles that have nothing whatsoever to do with audio playback. Pictures, calendars, videos, games, etc.

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 18:45

Quote:
The iPod is wildly successful because it LACKS many features

Moo.

Welcome to the herd.

Posted by: robricc

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 18:59

Quote:

Moo.

Welcome to the herd.

Not Mooo... Baaaaah!!!

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 19:00

I wouldn't go that far. There's some merit to what he says. Namely, the idiotic masses need something simple. And the idiotic masses outnumber us like 20 to 1, if not more. And I'm not even intending to cast aspersions. Your parents are likely in that category. Mine, too.

That doesn't make it good for the rest of us, though.

Posted by: rjf

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 19:18

Look around you -- you belong to a herd, it's called the human race :-)

I love this reaction to anyone who likes something that "non-technical" people like. It couldn't be that the thing is actually pretty cool and useful and brings some happiness to your life. It has to be because you are just a useless member of some "herd".

Me, I like lots of different devices, complicated and not, and I am fortunate enough to be able to both own and know how to use most of them.

My point with the post was that if someone were to add even only the top 10 requests (from this board) to the iPod, it would signficantly reduce the usability of the device, and by extension its popularity.

rjf&

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 19:28

Quote:
My point with the post was that if someone were to add even only the top 10 requests (from this board) to the iPod, it would signficantly reduce the usability of the device, and by extension its popularity.

Only if done poorly. I'm very much an Apple fanboy, but I don't think you'd have to impact the iPod's usability at all to improve upon it. How does adding gapless playback impact usability? How about supporting additional formats, any UI impact there?

Yeah, some of the more arcane stuff like tweak order and virtual DJ type stuff might require a little extra UI that might confuse novices, but they could just not bother with those things. I don't see how making the device do a little more necessarily has a negative impact on usability.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 19:38

Hierarchical playlists, too.

There are many things like that that could be added completely transparently that would affect the UI only if you chose to use them.

Posted by: rjf

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 20:28

I'll just point out that this is exactly how a device gets out of hand. A group of very smart people lobbying for the addition of their pet feature, claiming that if implemented properly it'll have absolutely no effect on the usability of the device for those who care nothing of the feature in question.

I definitely accept the argument that perhaps Apple went a little too far toward the pedestrian, but it was a much better choice than going too far the other way, assuming your goal is to have a widely appealing and profitable business :-)

BTW, I don't think we're really arguing, just passing the afternoon by elaborating our points -- let me know if I am mistaken.

Cheers,
rjf&

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 20:31

I think that if anyone can add features without decreasing usability, Apple can.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 22:07

The iPod is wildly successful because it LACKS many features. This is the success of Jobs and company.

Exactly.

If a company has plans to remain in business, it has to market to the masses, which is what Apple has done, and is why empeg production ceased years ago.

This is a reasonably succinct reprise of what I am saying...

tanstaafl.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 22:48

Quote:
I definitely accept the argument that perhaps Apple went a little too far toward the pedestrian, but it was a much better choice than going too far the other way, assuming your goal is to have a widely appealing and profitable business :-)

I think you and I are in the same ballpark, then. I believe Apple went too far toward the pedestrian because they knew they hit a grand slam with iTunes and ITMS. Those selling points gave them the luxury to kick back and slowly perfect the iPod, rather than having to pit feature against feature and design against design.

That's just dandy, but I think it's time for them to seriously innovate. The fact that there's no gapless playback is *inexcusable*.

Quote:
BTW, I don't think we're really arguing, just passing the afternoon by elaborating our points

Without question. (Though, it's evening here already.)

Posted by: mlord

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 23:23

Quote:
The iPod is wildly successful because it LACKS many features. This is the success of Jobs and company.

No.

The iPod is successful because it is drop-dead beautiful to look at, and plays digital music adequately. The external visible design is what sells iPods, not the feature set or lack thereof.

The reason it lacks features is simple pure MBA stuff: this way they can spoon-feed the missing features one-by-one in subsequent upgrades, thereby reselling (almost) the same product over and over to the same people, multiplying profits. Nearly all successful businesses do that sort of thing.

Cheers

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Empeg future? - 25/05/2006 23:50

Quote:
it is drop-dead beautiful

Not until it runs Toby's visuals (my pet feature). But seriously, you're right. iPods are a fashion accessory, a brand to show off, a badge of conformity, a... baaahh.

Quote:
Nearly all successful businesses do that sort of thing.

And have always done this sort of thing. Didn't even Shakespeare and other classic authors do the same thing with their works? Sell them as installment, then in a complete folio, then a hard bound folio, then leather bound, then a compendium, etc, etc. ::cough:: Star Wars ::cough::

Let's hope they ARE perfecting the iPod and not George Lucas'ing it. "Get the special 'Black Eyed Peas' Edition iPod, with an exclusive 2 gigabyte mix of 'My Humps'" (

@ Bitt )

Posted by: TigerJimmy

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 05:19

iTunes is the reason why the iPod sells. Apple solved the mp3 creation problem for non-technical people and they integrated their solution seamlessly with their player.

Posted by: altman

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 05:28

Personally - and this comment is with no insight apart from having been a competitor and taken apart many iPods in my time - I suspect that Apple would love gapless, but adding it to their current platform would require a lot reorganisation of the software structure.

I have to say that I've only ever managed to crash an iPod by running some USB stress tests; the player software is solid as a rock. I can believe that they don't fancy pulling it to pieces and (most likely) seriously affecting stability to add such a feature. I can believe the player engine is largely unchanged from how it was in 2001, and for that vintage it's just fine.

However, as everyone has heard (especially portalplayer's shareholders), Apple looks like they're moving platform, at least for new flash players. Given that the PP platform was, errr, unique with its twin ARM7 cores, I can believe that they'll take the opportunity to build themselves a fancy new player with all the bells and whistles. Apart from anything else, their sales now justify a major software investment, whereas the original iPod (pre iTunes, especially) was a bit of a flyer for Apple and was pretty risk-averse in its software design. Take a look at what the Mac does graphically - the beatifully scaled & anti-aliased icons, the neat transparency effects, the rotating cube user switching - these people love seamless. They love flair. I can't believe they're happy with the gaps.

Just my 2p (when it's 2c, I won't be free to give it

)

Hugo

Posted by: Phoenix42

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 12:48

Quote:
Let's hope they ARE perfecting the iPod and not George Lucas'ing it. "Get the special 'Black Eyed Peas' Edition iPod, with an exclusive 2 gigabyte mix of 'My Humps'" ( @ Bitt )

They already did.

Posted by: peter

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 13:04

Quote:
these people love seamless. They love flair. I can't believe they're happy with the gaps.

It does seem very odd. You'd think gapless playback would hit all the bases for Apple: no UI issues, popular with musicians and creatives, making the competition seem ugly and unprofessional, etc., and the fact that Ipod has been through so many revisions without fixing this properly (plus the fact they briefly thought that that "joining songs together" scheme was worth the development time as a workaround) makes me wonder if there's something slightly unwell about the Ipod software development process at Apple.

Peter

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 14:27

Quote:
makes me wonder if there's something slightly unwell about the Ipod software development process at Apple.

Well, let's hope the Hugo can have an influence, then?

Posted by: rob

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 15:33

Quote:
makes me wonder if there's something slightly unwell about the Ipod software development process at Apple.

We've met with the iPod software guys a few times and they've come across as very clueful, although sometimes it feels like they might be about to break out into the company song.

I suspect it's more likely that there's too much core software in there from their principle chip vendor. As Hugo says, it seems that won't be a problem soon.

Rob

Posted by: peter

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 16:32

Quote:
We've met with the iPod software guys a few times and they've come across as very clueful, although sometimes it feels like they might be about to break out into the company song.

I suspect it's more likely that there's too much core software in there from their principle chip vendor.

Right, I didn't mean they must be clueless. Being yoked to something that makes their lives much harder than necessary would still come under a "slightly unwell process".

Peter

Posted by: loren

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 16:59

Quote:
I have to say that I've only ever managed to crash an iPod by running some USB stress tests; the player software is solid as a rock. I can believe that they don't fancy pulling it to pieces and (most likely) seriously affecting stability to add such a feature. I can believe the player engine is largely unchanged from how it was in 2001, and for that vintage it's just fine.

Have you played with the new 5Gs? Man, Mine locks up and has interface hitches OFTEN. So does Kelly's. I think I narrowed it down to album art stuff, but so far my new iPod experience hasn't been something of solidity. Video stuff is anything but seamless as well. But, those are new fancy features I guess... the older gen iPods, 3G and prior, were always rock solid.

Posted by: maczrool

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 17:02

Congrats on the job! Perhaps you can suggest digital outputs finally be offered on future iPods? It just makes sense given that every other piece of Apple gear includes them now.

Stu

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 17:30

Late to the thread, but one more congrats to you!

-Zeke

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 18:00

Quote:
The reason it lacks features is simple pure MBA stuff: this way they can spoon-feed the missing features one-by-one in subsequent upgrades, thereby reselling (almost) the same product over and over to the same people, multiplying profits. Nearly all successful businesses do that sort of thing.

Apparently, Steve Jobs agrees.

Posted by: furtive

Re: Empeg future? - 26/05/2006 21:15

I must admit, some of the iPod docks are a bit classier than the empeg dock:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/25/the-concerto-table/

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Empeg future? - 27/05/2006 15:04

Really? You should post an image of one of those classy ones.

Posted by: furtive

Re: Empeg future? - 27/05/2006 16:06

As an aside, Hugo - a friend of mine says he knew you when you worked at Acorn

Posted by: bonzi

Re: Empeg future? - 27/05/2006 22:40

Quote:
Well, I wasn't planning to announce this just yet, but next month I'm starting a job with the iPod group... however, I have no idea what I'll be working on, and when I do find out I'll be very legally bound not to tell anyone.

This doesn't mean bad things for the empeg code (and its expert custodians) which is still on track to be in some hoopy (and yes, they are hoopy, I've seen the industrial designs) new players for the holiday season!

Holly cow, I missed this bombshell!

Congratulations, Hugo!

So, it seems that soon it will be OK to buy an iPod and some new kids on the block reincarnating emper/Karma's features. Great!

Cheers!

Posted by: bonzi

Re: Empeg future? - 27/05/2006 22:43

Quote:
I think that if anyone can add features without decreasing usability, Apple can.

Exactly. I don't see that one-button-mouse clicking, Aqua-admiring crowd is hampered by Mach and BSD innards, open to those who know what to do with them.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Empeg future? - 27/05/2006 23:45

Quote:
Exactly. I don't see that one-button-mouse clicking, Aqua-admiring crowd is hampered by Mach and BSD innards, open to those who know what to do with them.

The mixture of ease of use and powerful features is what attracted me to OS X, and the hardware. The iPod nano I have now works very well for carrying around podcasts, but I still use my Karma for music when I'm away from my empeg. If the iPod added some features under the hood, I'd be all over a 6th gen unit. iTunes already has folders for partial hierarchal support, it just now needs to hop over the sync interface properly to the iPod.

And Hugo, congrats on the new job. The fact that Apple is willing to bring you onboard says a lot about your past work and how great it was.

Posted by: rubennyc

Re: Empeg future? - 29/05/2006 00:29

This might be my first ever post here. Anyway, I'm usually hanging out over at Riovolution and wanted to offer my hearty congratulations and best of luck to Hugo. Hardly a day goes by when I don't appreciate and enjoy the hell out of my Karma.

Methinks the future of the DAP industry just got a lot more interesting.

Posted by: shadow45

Re: Empeg future? - 31/05/2006 17:22

Congratulations!

Let's see what great things you can cook up there

they like Out of the box ideas.

Just don't piss off Jobs. When he parks in handicapped spots, its because he does have a disibility. a mental one

(someone left a note on his car when he did that once, and he did a shake-down of the entire Apple board design building trying to find the culprit)

<Nelson> Ha ha </Nelson>

Posted by: JaBZ

Re: Empeg future? - 05/06/2006 00:17

Wow! Congrats on the new job Hugo...
Hopefully you can be as helpful with regards to tech info on their players as you have been with Rio, however I somehow doubt that, they will lock you up in a dark room.. :P Let's hope the SigmaTel makes in into their harddrive variants with you on board.

Posted by: SE_Sport_Driver

Re: Empeg future? - 05/06/2006 22:18

Quote:
Wow! Congrats on the new job Hugo...
Hopefully you can be as helpful with regards to tech info on their players as you have been with Rio, however I somehow doubt that, they will lock you up in a dark room.. :P Let's hope the SigmaTel makes in into their harddrive variants with you on board.

If Apple starts using Sigmatel again, Hugo will be very valuable indeed with his new surroundings. Perhaps it was something that modivated his hire within Apple. (Pure specuation I know, but it's fun!)

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Empeg future? - 10/06/2006 02:05

Wow! Congratulations!

Quote:
I can believe that they'll take the opportunity to build themselves a fancy new player with all the bells and whistles. Apart from anything else, their sales now justify a major software investment, whereas the original iPod (pre iTunes, especially) was a bit of a flyer for Apple and was pretty risk-averse in its software design. ...snip.....

What can I say? You go boy! ...and....on a more practical note:

Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!
Kennedy!`

Jim

Empeg future?

Empeg future? - 22/05/2006 18:45

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