Posted by: muzza
IASCA fianls - 03/11/2000 17:01
Rob, any pics from IASCA. what was the response?
____________________
Murray 06000047
____________________
Murray 06000047
IASCA fianls
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 04/11/2000 19:08
I have some great photos of some of the most wild cars around - I'll get them onto the geek site as soon as I get a spare minute.
The reaction to the car player from the competitors, judges and visitors was extremely encouraging. Many people (including Sound Q judges and other manufacturers) told us we had the best product at the show - which was nice
In particular the parametric EQ went down a storm.
Rob
The reaction to the car player from the competitors, judges and visitors was extremely encouraging. Many people (including Sound Q judges and other manufacturers) told us we had the best product at the show - which was nice
In particular the parametric EQ went down a storm.
Rob
Posted by: muzza
Re: IASCA finals - 04/11/2000 23:08
Many people (including Sound Q judges and other manufacturers) told us we had the best product at the show - which was nice
other understatements of our time
and then i won 'who wants to be a millionaire?' - which was nice
so my mother in law said she'd leave all her estate to me - which was nice
seriously though
great stuff, look forward to the pics.
____________________
Murray 06000047
other understatements of our time
and then i won 'who wants to be a millionaire?' - which was nice
so my mother in law said she'd leave all her estate to me - which was nice
seriously though
great stuff, look forward to the pics.
____________________
Murray 06000047
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 06/11/2000 02:26
The reaction to the car player from the competitors, judges and visitors was extremely encouraging.
Were you able to make any progress towards making the empeg legal for IASCA competition?
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Were you able to make any progress towards making the empeg legal for IASCA competition?
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 06/11/2000 02:37
Were you able to make any progress towards making the empeg legal for IASCA competition?
No
I had a chat with a prominent Sound Q judge and well known contributor to ICE publications, and the overriding impression I gained was that IASCA moves VERY slowly in implementing change. He's been trying to simplify the Sound Q judging criteria for almost 10 years with little progress (no great opposition - but no progress either).
Rob
No
I had a chat with a prominent Sound Q judge and well known contributor to ICE publications, and the overriding impression I gained was that IASCA moves VERY slowly in implementing change. He's been trying to simplify the Sound Q judging criteria for almost 10 years with little progress (no great opposition - but no progress either).
Rob
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 06/11/2000 03:07
the overriding impression I gained was that IASCA moves VERY slowly in implementing change
Yeah, I guess I can understand that, in a way. Their ultimate goal is to encourage the sale of in-car audio equipment, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense from their viewpoint to change their competition rules to accommodate the 1/100 of one percent (probably not even that many) of IASCA competitors who wish to use empegs in competition.
[self-pity]
I guess my best option will be to work with my portable CD player and the auxilliary inputs on the empeg and try to get proper sound quality that way. But it seems unfortunate to have to rely on the DAC in a $130 portable CD player operating on AA batteries when I have the superb empeg sitting in the car that by all logic should produce a much better sound.
[/self-pity]
I do get to use the empeg's parametric equalizer with the auxilliary inputs, don't I? Yes, of course I do. So I guess that will make up for some of the deficiencies in the portable player.
Sigh....
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Yeah, I guess I can understand that, in a way. Their ultimate goal is to encourage the sale of in-car audio equipment, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense from their viewpoint to change their competition rules to accommodate the 1/100 of one percent (probably not even that many) of IASCA competitors who wish to use empegs in competition.
[self-pity]
I guess my best option will be to work with my portable CD player and the auxilliary inputs on the empeg and try to get proper sound quality that way. But it seems unfortunate to have to rely on the DAC in a $130 portable CD player operating on AA batteries when I have the superb empeg sitting in the car that by all logic should produce a much better sound.
[/self-pity]
I do get to use the empeg's parametric equalizer with the auxilliary inputs, don't I? Yes, of course I do. So I guess that will make up for some of the deficiencies in the portable player.
Sigh....
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 08/11/2000 19:46
I think IASCA just closed the door on the empeg as a competition device. Here is a quote from their proposed rule change for the 2001 competition season:
"The competitor will insert the official IASCA Competition CD provided to them by the judges for the purposes of SQ, SPL, and RTA judging. IASCA and its judges reserve the right to provide a special, approved judging disc with different track identification than the version released to competitors and to use that disc for judging the system. This can be done without prior notice at any event. Attempts by competitors to use modified software will result in disqualification from the event. A second infraction will result in a mandatory one-year suspension from IASCA competition. (If you are using modified software, now would be a good time to stop.)"
Maybe IASCA needs to change their name to IACDA for International Auto CD Association.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
"The competitor will insert the official IASCA Competition CD provided to them by the judges for the purposes of SQ, SPL, and RTA judging. IASCA and its judges reserve the right to provide a special, approved judging disc with different track identification than the version released to competitors and to use that disc for judging the system. This can be done without prior notice at any event. Attempts by competitors to use modified software will result in disqualification from the event. A second infraction will result in a mandatory one-year suspension from IASCA competition. (If you are using modified software, now would be a good time to stop.)"
Maybe IASCA needs to change their name to IACDA for International Auto CD Association.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: borislav
Re: IASCA fianls - 08/11/2000 20:56
"...Attempts by competitors to use modified software will result in disqualification from the event. A second infraction will result in a mandatory one-year suspension from IASCA competition. (If you are using modified software, now would be a good time to stop.)"
What do they mean by "modified software"?
Borislav
What do they mean by "modified software"?
Borislav
Posted by: tfabris
Re: IASCA fianls - 08/11/2000 21:02
What do they mean by "modified software"?
In that particular context, I think the term "Software" refers to the audio media: The music itself. Not software the way we think of it.
I've seen the term "Software" used in that context before. For example, referring to a VHS videotape as the software and the videotape player as the hardware.
If that's the case, then perhaps there is still hope for IASCA and digital audio. There are ways to make sure that the judges are playing the correct digital audio file. They are not trivial methods, though, as we have discussed before, and would require a great deal of effort on the part of the competitors, the judges, and the people designing the playback hardware/firmware.
___________
Tony Fabris
In that particular context, I think the term "Software" refers to the audio media: The music itself. Not software the way we think of it.
I've seen the term "Software" used in that context before. For example, referring to a VHS videotape as the software and the videotape player as the hardware.
If that's the case, then perhaps there is still hope for IASCA and digital audio. There are ways to make sure that the judges are playing the correct digital audio file. They are not trivial methods, though, as we have discussed before, and would require a great deal of effort on the part of the competitors, the judges, and the people designing the playback hardware/firmware.
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 09/11/2000 03:37
Maybe IASCA needs to change their name to IACDA for International Auto CD Association.
IASCA are essentially an industry promotional tool - when mainstream car audio manufacturers have hard disk based players you can be sure the rules will change.
Rob
IASCA are essentially an industry promotional tool - when mainstream car audio manufacturers have hard disk based players you can be sure the rules will change.
Rob
Posted by: teemcbee
Re: IASCA fianls - 09/11/2000 05:46
But that will take a while I think.
It's not as easy to handle as a single CD and as I was working as a customer support stuff for some years I know how much knowhow the avarage people have (have you ever read some jokes about typical "users"?). So there would be many problems in the handling.
Another thing is how to feed new songs?
I love your solution and your hdd-based unit. But I've got some knowhow about computers like most (maybe all?) of your clients have. And we have some problems sometimes, too. So what should someone do who can just write some word-docs (or wordperfect-docs for the linux-users
)
TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143
It's not as easy to handle as a single CD and as I was working as a customer support stuff for some years I know how much knowhow the avarage people have (have you ever read some jokes about typical "users"?). So there would be many problems in the handling.
Another thing is how to feed new songs?
I love your solution and your hdd-based unit. But I've got some knowhow about computers like most (maybe all?) of your clients have. And we have some problems sometimes, too. So what should someone do who can just write some word-docs (or wordperfect-docs for the linux-users
)TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 28/11/2000 17:16
I think IASCA just closed the door on the empeg as a competition device. Here is a quote from their proposed rule change for the 2001 competition season:
Well, now the door is not just closed, but dead-bolted and chained, I'm afraid. Below is an excerpt from a letter I received from Manville Smith, of the IASCA Rules Development Committee:
> Dear Mr. Burnside,
> Thank you for your comments about the future of digital audio storage for the automobile. We at IASCA are certainly aware of the developments in this area.
>
> The primary reason for requiring that all competitors use the official judging CD is that we must ensure that all are using the same source. As you mentioned in your message, it is quite possible to edit, equalize, expand or otherwise alter audio with any digital editing suite. We must ensure that all competitors play the same source material to keep the playing field level.
>
> While it is certainly possible to digitally watermark files to ensure that they have not been tampered with, judges would have to be equipped with computers to verify the judging software. Not only would this be very expensive, but also very time consuming in the lanes. Some audiophiles also believe that digital watermarking is audible (perhaps a bit of a stretch, but an issue nonetheless.)
> I certainly understand your enthusiasm for the new digital storage technology. I find it fascinating as well... but for the immediate future, IASCA will require a good old CD player as the source and will also require that its official software be used in competition. In the more distant future we will probably evolve as the media evolves, but for now it's CD only.
I am still trying to persuade them to change their minds, but am not optimistic. If the player software could have an enhancement so that a button-press on the remote would over-ride whatever was on the display and show the official IASCA watermark of whatever file was currently playing, and if I could get IASCA to (a) watermark their files and (b) allow empeg to display the watermarks, then maybe, just maybe...
It's a long shot, however I look at it.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Well, now the door is not just closed, but dead-bolted and chained, I'm afraid. Below is an excerpt from a letter I received from Manville Smith, of the IASCA Rules Development Committee:
> Dear Mr. Burnside,
> Thank you for your comments about the future of digital audio storage for the automobile. We at IASCA are certainly aware of the developments in this area.
>
> The primary reason for requiring that all competitors use the official judging CD is that we must ensure that all are using the same source. As you mentioned in your message, it is quite possible to edit, equalize, expand or otherwise alter audio with any digital editing suite. We must ensure that all competitors play the same source material to keep the playing field level.
>
> While it is certainly possible to digitally watermark files to ensure that they have not been tampered with, judges would have to be equipped with computers to verify the judging software. Not only would this be very expensive, but also very time consuming in the lanes. Some audiophiles also believe that digital watermarking is audible (perhaps a bit of a stretch, but an issue nonetheless.)
> I certainly understand your enthusiasm for the new digital storage technology. I find it fascinating as well... but for the immediate future, IASCA will require a good old CD player as the source and will also require that its official software be used in competition. In the more distant future we will probably evolve as the media evolves, but for now it's CD only.
I am still trying to persuade them to change their minds, but am not optimistic. If the player software could have an enhancement so that a button-press on the remote would over-ride whatever was on the display and show the official IASCA watermark of whatever file was currently playing, and if I could get IASCA to (a) watermark their files and (b) allow empeg to display the watermarks, then maybe, just maybe...
It's a long shot, however I look at it.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 28/11/2000 17:41
IASCA are financed (indirectly, directly, whatever) by major manufacturers. When those major manufacturers have MP3 heads that they want to promote, then things will start to change.
Rob
Rob
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 28/11/2000 18:11
IASCA are financed (indirectly, directly, whatever) by major manufacturers. When those major manufacturers have MP3 heads that they want to promote, then things will start to change.
Hmmmm... isn't SonicBlue a major manufacturer?
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Hmmmm... isn't SonicBlue a major manufacturer?
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 29/11/2000 06:50
Hmmmm... isn't SonicBlue a major manufacturer?
In the automotive field - not yet! Give it a few months..
Rob
In the automotive field - not yet! Give it a few months..
Rob
Posted by: PaulWay
Re: IASCA fianls - 29/11/2000 18:25
In reply to:and if I could get IASCA to (a) watermark their files and (b) allow empeg to display the watermarks, then maybe, just maybe...
My thoughts on this are: don't watermark. Leaving aside the issue of audibility, there's also the question of what the absence of a watermark means. It might very well be possible to obliterate a watermark by amplifying the audio outside the range of the microphone attempting to read the watermark, or changing the equalisation in a way which is still legitimate for IASCA competition.
I think MD5 or some other message digest 'signature' generation procedure should be used. How to verify that the track that you play is the same track that IASCA supply is the main question. My answer is: display the checksum immediately after playing the track, and the checksums don't get released. If the IASCA judge wanted to be satisfied they can give you a track off a CD you haven't seen and ask you to verify the signature of it. Only if you could duplicate the signature that the IASCA generated off the same song - a signature which you didn't know beforehand - would it prove that your signature generation procedure is not rigged.
What do you think of this solution? And, more importantly, what do people think IASCA would think?
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 10:02
Possible solutions to playing CDs with the EMPEG.
1) The EMPEG can control two IDE devices. If one of those happened to be a CD-ROM drive, you'd be in business. You'd have this awful IDE cable snaking out of the EMPEG box, plus you'd have to write device drivers and so forth.
2) A standalone computer or laptop can read the CD and feed the bits over Ethernet to the EMPEG, either in batch mode (i.e., rip the CD, upload it, then play it) or interactively (Ethernet is 10 Mbits, CD audio is 1.5 Mbits -- in theory you can turn the EMPEG into a streaming player). Add wireless Ethernet for that extra panache.
Option #2 would work particularly well in competition, particularly if you could convince the EMPEG folks to develop some custom software on the player side to receive and buffer the streaming audio data (or port the software from the Rio Receiver). In either case, you'd have to be careful you were using a decent CD-ROM drive that gave accurate "rips" (Plextor is a good one, most laptop drives aren't). The last thing you want is to loose a competition because your CD-ROM drive hiccuped and the music popped.
1) The EMPEG can control two IDE devices. If one of those happened to be a CD-ROM drive, you'd be in business. You'd have this awful IDE cable snaking out of the EMPEG box, plus you'd have to write device drivers and so forth.
2) A standalone computer or laptop can read the CD and feed the bits over Ethernet to the EMPEG, either in batch mode (i.e., rip the CD, upload it, then play it) or interactively (Ethernet is 10 Mbits, CD audio is 1.5 Mbits -- in theory you can turn the EMPEG into a streaming player). Add wireless Ethernet for that extra panache.
Option #2 would work particularly well in competition, particularly if you could convince the EMPEG folks to develop some custom software on the player side to receive and buffer the streaming audio data (or port the software from the Rio Receiver). In either case, you'd have to be careful you were using a decent CD-ROM drive that gave accurate "rips" (Plextor is a good one, most laptop drives aren't). The last thing you want is to loose a competition because your CD-ROM drive hiccuped and the music popped.
Posted by: Smoker_Man
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 10:53
In reply to:The EMPEG can control two IDE devices. If one of those happened to be a CD-ROM drive, you'd be in business. You'd have this awful IDE cable snaking out of the EMPEG box, plus you'd have to write device drivers and so forth.
A great idea, but still most laptop or slimline cdroms do require extra power, the extra not supplied by the ide chain that the hard disks run off (extra 5 volts). I suppose if you were willing to do some soldering, and create the extra power unit on the outside of the empeg, it would be feasable to mount a slimline cdrom on the outside of the empeg, you would have to completely re-engineer your docking sled, but it is do-able. I dont really want to try this, but I would probably prefer to get a really big ide drive to replace my two current ones, and somehow pickup a slimline laptop cdrom, anyone have a laptop I can bastardise?
But to use this setup, one would have to muck with the kernel to auto mount cdroms on insert, and auto-umount them on eject button press. Not to mention the player would somehow have to be able to look to the cdrom, and play wav's (New in 1.1, eta unknown). I suppoes the kernel could mount the cdrom as drive2, and generate fids for the tracks on the cdrom, but then again, I dont know much about the player software, perhaps someone else could comment on the kernel and player requirements to play audio tracks off a cdrom.
Posted by: rob
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 11:08
Don't forget we're talking about IASCA SQ competition here. CD-ROM drives usually have lousy audio quality - many of these guys wouldn't think twice about spending $1000 on a CD transport.
Rob
Rob
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 13:43
The EMPEG can control two IDE devices...
I've just about convinced myself that I am going to have to "bite the bullet" so to speak and install a good quality CD player to feed into the empeg's auxilliary input.
I have what amounts to a double-din area in the dash that will let me do this. It means sacrificing my cup holders and my coin tray. But y'know, I don't drink coffee, and in all of Interior Alaska there is not a single parking meter nor toll road so maybe, just maybe I could survive without those luxuries.
Can somebody please clarify for me what the ramifications of this are. Let's see, I am playing the competition CD in a CD player, using the CD player's DAC to send an analog signal to the empeg. What does the empeg do with that signal? I can run it through the empeg's parametric equalizer which is a good thing, but I don't get to run it through the empeg's Burr-Brown DAC with its 110 dBA S/N ratio which is a bad thing. Under the one circumstance where it is really crucial to have all of the benefits of the empeg's superb sound production capabilities, I can't use them.
I do get to use the CD player's radio tuner, so that's a plus, saves me $90 (with shipping). Anybody have a feel for how much sound quality I may be giving away by using the empeg in this mode as a pre-pre-amplifier? I know there are some empeg users who are using CD players in their cars in the manner I have described here.
I'm telling you, when I get to be King of the World, there'll be some changes made, you'll see!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
I've just about convinced myself that I am going to have to "bite the bullet" so to speak and install a good quality CD player to feed into the empeg's auxilliary input.
I have what amounts to a double-din area in the dash that will let me do this. It means sacrificing my cup holders and my coin tray. But y'know, I don't drink coffee, and in all of Interior Alaska there is not a single parking meter nor toll road so maybe, just maybe I could survive without those luxuries.
Can somebody please clarify for me what the ramifications of this are. Let's see, I am playing the competition CD in a CD player, using the CD player's DAC to send an analog signal to the empeg. What does the empeg do with that signal? I can run it through the empeg's parametric equalizer which is a good thing, but I don't get to run it through the empeg's Burr-Brown DAC with its 110 dBA S/N ratio which is a bad thing. Under the one circumstance where it is really crucial to have all of the benefits of the empeg's superb sound production capabilities, I can't use them.
I do get to use the CD player's radio tuner, so that's a plus, saves me $90 (with shipping). Anybody have a feel for how much sound quality I may be giving away by using the empeg in this mode as a pre-pre-amplifier? I know there are some empeg users who are using CD players in their cars in the manner I have described here.I'm telling you, when I get to be King of the World, there'll be some changes made, you'll see!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: tfabris
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 13:49
I don't think you'll have any quality loss sending the CD through the Empeg's Aux-in. Theoretically, if the EQ is flat and the Empeg is set to 0db, it should sound no different than if you'd plugged the CD straight into your amp. (In theory... right?)
I think the worst possible thing is that you might induce a ground loop, and your installer can take care of that if it happens.
Isn't that what you're doing with the portable right now? Have you had problems with its sound quality and that's why you're talking about doing this?
___________
Tony Fabris
I think the worst possible thing is that you might induce a ground loop, and your installer can take care of that if it happens.
Isn't that what you're doing with the portable right now? Have you had problems with its sound quality and that's why you're talking about doing this?
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 14:00
Have you had problems with its sound quality and that's why you're talking about doing this?
In a word, yes.
Two problem areas with the portable: a ground loop which I am confident I can fix with a six inch piece of wire and a bit of solder, and a completely different sound persona from the portable. Its DAC gives noticeably different emphasis to the different frequencies, giving a sound that I consider to be excessively warm and "schmaltzy". Like maybe the portable has a permanent Loudness setting built in. I lose the cleanliness of sound that (IMHO) makes my car stereo better than a lot of others. Of course, it's a cheap portable player -- about $170 complete with AM/FM tuner, so I shouldn't have too high of expectations.
Speaking of portable players... has anybody noticed the portable CD player in the Radio Shack catalog that can play both CDs and MP3 files on CD-Rs? It strikes me that that would be a very useful thing in a portable -- 10--12 hours without having to swap disks.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
In a word, yes.
Two problem areas with the portable: a ground loop which I am confident I can fix with a six inch piece of wire and a bit of solder, and a completely different sound persona from the portable. Its DAC gives noticeably different emphasis to the different frequencies, giving a sound that I consider to be excessively warm and "schmaltzy". Like maybe the portable has a permanent Loudness setting built in. I lose the cleanliness of sound that (IMHO) makes my car stereo better than a lot of others. Of course, it's a cheap portable player -- about $170 complete with AM/FM tuner, so I shouldn't have too high of expectations.
Speaking of portable players... has anybody noticed the portable CD player in the Radio Shack catalog that can play both CDs and MP3 files on CD-Rs? It strikes me that that would be a very useful thing in a portable -- 10--12 hours without having to swap disks.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: muzza
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 14:26
I have pretty much the setup you will be acquiring. I use the CDs radio (until the empeg box comes out) and CD player when i have to check out the CD i just bought on the way home to rip it. I feel that some of the CD manufacturers deliberately add the "schmaltzy" EQ.
fortunately there is some EQ on the tuner unit to counteract this, I end up having to tune the bass back a bit.
I am not a caraudiophile but the sound from the CD is very good. It would take a freq analyzer & an A/B switch to test it fully, two things i dont have.
____________________
Murray 06000047
fortunately there is some EQ on the tuner unit to counteract this, I end up having to tune the bass back a bit.
I am not a caraudiophile but the sound from the CD is very good. It would take a freq analyzer & an A/B switch to test it fully, two things i dont have.
____________________
Murray 06000047
Posted by: Smoker_Man
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 15:33
In reply to:I know there are some empeg users who are using CD players in their cars in the manner I have described here.
I am running just that setup, but my previous head unit was a Kenwood Radio/Cassette deck w/changer control, I still have that unit running into the aux of the empeg, other than the previously mention "warm, fuzzy" sound, the clarity is actually far better with the empegs EQ and my amp. if anything I can drive the speakers harder with the volume from the empeg, and fine tune the radio/cassette/changer unit.
I have noticed no ground loop, but I attibute that to good quality RCA cables, and an excellent Toyota electrical system.
I will post a pic if I can nab my digital camera back for a day or two, I meant to document the whole install procedure, but unfourtunatly that was lost by the wayside, when I began my install and simply just got too excited about the empeg!
I will be doing a new install in the spring with my new auto (another Toyota) and I will surely be documenting that install, as it will be all out.
But so far, no problems, just extra gain, and better quality audio with a decent quality aux head unit.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 16:55
Rob writes: Don't forget we're talking about IASCA SQ competition here. CD-ROM drives usually have lousy audio quality - many of these guys wouldn't think twice about spending $1000 on a CD transport.
You'd only go for the CD-ROM if you were getting digital-out and running the bits into EMPEG. If you've got a PC, outside the car, that rips a CD and emplodes the music into your EMPEG, then that's potentially compliant with IASCA rules. It's not real-time, which may cause the judges some grief (they walk up to your car and it takes you 10 minutes to rip and emplode a 60 minute disc).
This actually brings up a third possibility relative to my original list.
I presume some trunk-mounted CD changers have digital out, where the D/A occurs in the head unit. If you could reverse-engineer this digital out and then (somehow) feed it into the EMPEG, then you'd be home free. This would likely involve some hardware hacking (adapting whatever proprietary standard or even plain SP/DIF to Ethernet so the EMPEG can read it) and some software hacking (so the EMPEG could stream bits in from the Ethernet and feed them through the EMPEG's normal EQ and D/A).
You'd only go for the CD-ROM if you were getting digital-out and running the bits into EMPEG. If you've got a PC, outside the car, that rips a CD and emplodes the music into your EMPEG, then that's potentially compliant with IASCA rules. It's not real-time, which may cause the judges some grief (they walk up to your car and it takes you 10 minutes to rip and emplode a 60 minute disc).
This actually brings up a third possibility relative to my original list.
I presume some trunk-mounted CD changers have digital out, where the D/A occurs in the head unit. If you could reverse-engineer this digital out and then (somehow) feed it into the EMPEG, then you'd be home free. This would likely involve some hardware hacking (adapting whatever proprietary standard or even plain SP/DIF to Ethernet so the EMPEG can read it) and some software hacking (so the EMPEG could stream bits in from the Ethernet and feed them through the EMPEG's normal EQ and D/A).
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 17:27
If you've got a PC, outside the car, that rips a CD and emplodes the music into your EMPEG, then that's potentially compliant with IASCA rules.
Nope. You have to play the music from the judge's CD, not a copy of the judge's CD. They're making a real big deal of this in the rules for next year.
It's not real-time, which may cause the judges some grief (they walk up to your car and it takes you 10 minutes to rip and emplode a 60 minute disc).
Not even a remote possibility. The judges run themselves ragged trying to get through all the cars as it is, usually not spending more than 15-20 minutes total at each car. And I don't think you could get the IASCA disk into the empeg in 10 minutes... It usually takes me 30-40 minutes start to finish to put a CD in the empeg, but that includes the time spent calling up CDDB, then carefully modifying each song title (CDDB never does them the way I want them) then double and triple checking the directory path(s) where the music will go. Then, normalize the tracks, then rip them. Now I can have emplode grab them and put them in the empeg, after which I will probably have to work some more on the song titles because the ID3 tag truncates at 30 characters, and many of my titles are longer than that (Tchaikovsky-Violin Concerto #1, 1st mvt for example). All this takes at least a half hour, maybe more. Then I can finally run the synchronize step. One time out of five, the synchronize will lock up on me, so after re-booting, figuring out what actually made it in, and what is sitting in the unattached file, try it again. This time, the empeg will decide, based I think on a random seed derived from the sum of the digits on the license plate of Hugo's Miata, to do a full disk check. There goes another 10 minutes. By this time the judge has given up in despair and is working three cars further down the row.
I really believe the only possible solution (other than just giving up and adding a CD player to my car) is the watermark thing. IASCA will attach a tamper-proof "watermark" to the file. The empeg can with a push of a remote button display this watermark on the VFD screen. It might look something like "IASCA 1999-2000 track 06 Waylungo Percussion Verification=27ff3a6b9c44567e" with the last part being the actual tamper-proof watermark. Now it's really easy for me to sit here in my position of invincible ignorance and say how easy this would be to do. I don't really know if it's even possible. But until something like that does become feasible, I don't see how digital music players will be allowed to compete.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Nope. You have to play the music from the judge's CD, not a copy of the judge's CD. They're making a real big deal of this in the rules for next year.
It's not real-time, which may cause the judges some grief (they walk up to your car and it takes you 10 minutes to rip and emplode a 60 minute disc).
Not even a remote possibility. The judges run themselves ragged trying to get through all the cars as it is, usually not spending more than 15-20 minutes total at each car. And I don't think you could get the IASCA disk into the empeg in 10 minutes... It usually takes me 30-40 minutes start to finish to put a CD in the empeg, but that includes the time spent calling up CDDB, then carefully modifying each song title (CDDB never does them the way I want them) then double and triple checking the directory path(s) where the music will go. Then, normalize the tracks, then rip them. Now I can have emplode grab them and put them in the empeg, after which I will probably have to work some more on the song titles because the ID3 tag truncates at 30 characters, and many of my titles are longer than that (Tchaikovsky-Violin Concerto #1, 1st mvt for example). All this takes at least a half hour, maybe more. Then I can finally run the synchronize step. One time out of five, the synchronize will lock up on me, so after re-booting, figuring out what actually made it in, and what is sitting in the unattached file, try it again. This time, the empeg will decide, based I think on a random seed derived from the sum of the digits on the license plate of Hugo's Miata, to do a full disk check. There goes another 10 minutes. By this time the judge has given up in despair and is working three cars further down the row.
I really believe the only possible solution (other than just giving up and adding a CD player to my car) is the watermark thing. IASCA will attach a tamper-proof "watermark" to the file. The empeg can with a push of a remote button display this watermark on the VFD screen. It might look something like "IASCA 1999-2000 track 06 Waylungo Percussion Verification=27ff3a6b9c44567e" with the last part being the actual tamper-proof watermark. Now it's really easy for me to sit here in my position of invincible ignorance and say how easy this would be to do. I don't really know if it's even possible. But until something like that does become feasible, I don't see how digital music players will be allowed to compete.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: eternalsun
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 17:45
Perhaps the Mark 3 will have a build in CD transport and a built in emplode. ;) You'd want to set it into WAV rip mode... ;) and have it play as it rips?
You can argue forever as to what constitutes a "copy" for example, if the judge puts a iasca cd in an ordinary CD player.... when the laser strikes the cd surface and bounces back... does the laser contain A COPY of the information on the cd? So to that effect, what you're playing is not the cd, but a copy of the cd off of a beam of light. The beam of light is converted into digital electrical signals. Is this stream of digital electrical pulses not a COPY of the beam of light's pulses? And by this point the data may or may not be exactly the same due to any number of events, quantum physics or jitter or whatever. And as this copy of the software goes through the dac, is it not an altered version of the digital software? And the amplifer and who knows what other devices in the output path all do some sort of modification, that by the time it comes out of the speakers (which has their own colorizations) what you are hearing is a copy of a copy of a copy many times over.
So if the empeg was made to rip a CD in real time (not necessarily encode as an mp3) but rip it and play it in real time.... wouldn't this qualify according to the rules? Because what is the philosophical difference between having a copy of the software travel through a car audio system and out of the speakers in a few milliseconds versus traveling through an empeg-car audio system and having some of the bits lag a little (e.g. "lag" into the hard drive, and from the hard drive to the speakers) in also a few milliseconds?
If you can argue that the hard drive is equivalent to a cross over, or a speaker, or an amplifier, or a dsp, which it is, then you would qualify right?
It seems to me that if IASCA qualifies many of these audio components present in the "stream" -- what is wrong with a single component that integrates many of these audio components into a single box? And if some of these components in this single box do not have car-audio counterparts (such as hard drive, ripper, empeg-car player) so what? All you have to do is argue that the music moves from cd player to point a to point b, point b to point c, point c to the speakers. The trick is of course, getting this to occur very quickly.
Calvin
You can argue forever as to what constitutes a "copy" for example, if the judge puts a iasca cd in an ordinary CD player.... when the laser strikes the cd surface and bounces back... does the laser contain A COPY of the information on the cd? So to that effect, what you're playing is not the cd, but a copy of the cd off of a beam of light. The beam of light is converted into digital electrical signals. Is this stream of digital electrical pulses not a COPY of the beam of light's pulses? And by this point the data may or may not be exactly the same due to any number of events, quantum physics or jitter or whatever. And as this copy of the software goes through the dac, is it not an altered version of the digital software? And the amplifer and who knows what other devices in the output path all do some sort of modification, that by the time it comes out of the speakers (which has their own colorizations) what you are hearing is a copy of a copy of a copy many times over.
So if the empeg was made to rip a CD in real time (not necessarily encode as an mp3) but rip it and play it in real time.... wouldn't this qualify according to the rules? Because what is the philosophical difference between having a copy of the software travel through a car audio system and out of the speakers in a few milliseconds versus traveling through an empeg-car audio system and having some of the bits lag a little (e.g. "lag" into the hard drive, and from the hard drive to the speakers) in also a few milliseconds?
If you can argue that the hard drive is equivalent to a cross over, or a speaker, or an amplifier, or a dsp, which it is, then you would qualify right?
It seems to me that if IASCA qualifies many of these audio components present in the "stream" -- what is wrong with a single component that integrates many of these audio components into a single box? And if some of these components in this single box do not have car-audio counterparts (such as hard drive, ripper, empeg-car player) so what? All you have to do is argue that the music moves from cd player to point a to point b, point b to point c, point c to the speakers. The trick is of course, getting this to occur very quickly.
Calvin
Posted by: tfabris
Re: IASCA fianls - 30/11/2000 18:03
I really believe the only possible solution (other than just giving up and adding a CD player to my car) is the watermark thing.
Hmm, thinking about the watermark issue...
The whole point of watermarking, whether it be for audio files, images, movies, whatever, is that the watermark is supposed to tolerate modifications. For instance, the whole SDMI-hacking thing was all about this. The idea is that you could make a copy of a piece of music or an image, mess around with it (data compress it, alter its volume, etc.) and still have the watermark be readable.
If the point of having IASCA-certified digital music tracks is to verify that the files were not tampered, then watermarking is precisely the opposite technology to use.
Unless there's some sort of watermarking technology I don't know about that's been deliberately designed to detect tampering, but it seems to me that such a technology would have a different name than "watermark" since its purposes are different.
___________
Tony Fabris
Hmm, thinking about the watermark issue...
The whole point of watermarking, whether it be for audio files, images, movies, whatever, is that the watermark is supposed to tolerate modifications. For instance, the whole SDMI-hacking thing was all about this. The idea is that you could make a copy of a piece of music or an image, mess around with it (data compress it, alter its volume, etc.) and still have the watermark be readable.
If the point of having IASCA-certified digital music tracks is to verify that the files were not tampered, then watermarking is precisely the opposite technology to use.
Unless there's some sort of watermarking technology I don't know about that's been deliberately designed to detect tampering, but it seems to me that such a technology would have a different name than "watermark" since its purposes are different.
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: mcomb
Re: IASCA fianls - 01/12/2000 01:15
Yeah, you are talking about something more along the lines of a checksum or a hash. Basically the mp3 would have to be suplied by IASCA and the empeg would run an algorithm against it and display the checksum which could be verified by the judges as accurate. But you have to get IASCA to accept this and empeg to implement it and then you have to train the judges on how to deal with it.
You end up with kind of a funky trust relationship where IASCA has to trust empeg to properly calculate and display the hash (and keep the user from tampering with it) and has to trust the user not to have modified the empeg software to display the hash for one song and then play another. I don't see this happening until IASCA is forced to deal with the reality of mp3 players which probably won't happen until all the common stereos by all the big manufactures play digital audio files.
-Mike
You end up with kind of a funky trust relationship where IASCA has to trust empeg to properly calculate and display the hash (and keep the user from tampering with it) and has to trust the user not to have modified the empeg software to display the hash for one song and then play another. I don't see this happening until IASCA is forced to deal with the reality of mp3 players which probably won't happen until all the common stereos by all the big manufactures play digital audio files.
-Mike
Edited by mcomb on 01/12/00 08:19 AM.
Posted by: schofiel
Re: IASCA finals - 01/12/2000 02:07
Am I being a right wonk here, or am I missing the point (about download and RIP, anyway)?
What's the big deal about a judge carrying a checked portable around with him, with emplode installed, and then just USBing the track down to the empeg? (I know there are then issues beyond this, but I'm just talking about the delivery of an approved copy at the moment).
Surely if they can make an approved master CD, they can also make a master CD-ROM of MP3 tracks, which they can shove into the laptop, verify a checksum on, download to the empeg, then after the verification, see the loaded checksum on the target machine?
The download delay could easily be handled by having a "download station" at events where you hand over the player at the start of the day; the player is then taken into care of the judges. You don't see your unit again until the judge brings it over prior to judging. You carry out your last minute adjustments and then the work starts.
I suspect I am somewhat naive about the reality of a contest, but I can't see a lot of difficulty about this that can't be handled by a bit of simple organisation.
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...
#00015
What's the big deal about a judge carrying a checked portable around with him, with emplode installed, and then just USBing the track down to the empeg? (I know there are then issues beyond this, but I'm just talking about the delivery of an approved copy at the moment).
Surely if they can make an approved master CD, they can also make a master CD-ROM of MP3 tracks, which they can shove into the laptop, verify a checksum on, download to the empeg, then after the verification, see the loaded checksum on the target machine?
The download delay could easily be handled by having a "download station" at events where you hand over the player at the start of the day; the player is then taken into care of the judges. You don't see your unit again until the judge brings it over prior to judging. You carry out your last minute adjustments and then the work starts.
I suspect I am somewhat naive about the reality of a contest, but I can't see a lot of difficulty about this that can't be handled by a bit of simple organisation.
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...
#00015
Posted by: borislav
Re: IASCA fianls - 01/12/2000 02:33
You end up with kind of a funky trust relationship where IASCA has to trust empeg to properly calculate and display the hash (and keep the user from tampering with it) and has to trust the user not to have modified the empeg software to display the hash for one song and then play another. I don't see this happening until IASCA is forced to deal with the reality of mp3 players which probably won't happen until all the common stereos by all the big manufactures play digital audio files.
Exactly. Except I don't see this happening EVER. IASCA can't trust the user about anything (otherwise they might as well trust the user to play the right song in the first place). They can't trust the empeg to display the correct hash unless it's a closed and tamper-proof platform. In fact, the empeg is the exact opposite of that.
Borislav
Exactly. Except I don't see this happening EVER. IASCA can't trust the user about anything (otherwise they might as well trust the user to play the right song in the first place). They can't trust the empeg to display the correct hash unless it's a closed and tamper-proof platform. In fact, the empeg is the exact opposite of that.
Borislav
Posted by: borislav
Re: IASCA finals - 01/12/2000 02:48
Surely if they can make an approved master CD, they can also make a master CD-ROM of MP3 tracks, which they can shove into the laptop, verify a checksum on, download to the empeg, then after the verification, see the loaded checksum on the target machine?
The fact that the empeg displays the correct checksum doesn't mean anything. If you can change the player software (or the kernel) then you can have it display the checksum of the judge's file and still play your modified copy.
For any checksum based scheme to work, the following needs to happen:
1. Empeg must disallow all changes to the player software. No custom kernels or developer images;
2. IASCA must audit all of the player hardware and software to make sure there are no backdoors and the checksum is calculated correctly.
I hope 1. never happens and 2. sounds highly unlikely.
Borislav
The fact that the empeg displays the correct checksum doesn't mean anything. If you can change the player software (or the kernel) then you can have it display the checksum of the judge's file and still play your modified copy.
For any checksum based scheme to work, the following needs to happen:
1. Empeg must disallow all changes to the player software. No custom kernels or developer images;
2. IASCA must audit all of the player hardware and software to make sure there are no backdoors and the checksum is calculated correctly.
I hope 1. never happens and 2. sounds highly unlikely.
Borislav
Posted by: schofiel
Re: IASCA flannels - 01/12/2000 03:00
OK, so how about the judges having one empeg of their own, pre-loaded and verified by themselves?
They are, after all, trying to test the audio quality of your system, not your empeg.
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
They are, after all, trying to test the audio quality of your system, not your empeg.
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...
#00015
Posted by: Paul
Re: IASCA flannels - 01/12/2000 03:32
Reading throught this lot reminds me in a way of the history of cycling.
About 80 years ago there was the safety bike with it's diamond frame and upright ineffiecent cycling position and then some bright spark invented the recumbant bike with a low centre of gravity and effiecent cycling position and superior aerodynamics.
This then went onto wipe the floor with the safety bikes so it was banned by the cycleing authorities from competion because it was fundamentally better.
And now in this day the most popular form of bike is the good old diamond framed safety bike. And recumbants are still banned from cycling races.
Just because it is better doesn't mean that they are going to accept it
If i ever decide to take my cars to competions in the UK i will have my mates Alpine 7909L on standby in the boot if they don't like the Empeg.
The alpine only plays one CD but it sounds great must be the Burr Brown DACs just like the empeg
About 80 years ago there was the safety bike with it's diamond frame and upright ineffiecent cycling position and then some bright spark invented the recumbant bike with a low centre of gravity and effiecent cycling position and superior aerodynamics.
This then went onto wipe the floor with the safety bikes so it was banned by the cycleing authorities from competion because it was fundamentally better.
And now in this day the most popular form of bike is the good old diamond framed safety bike. And recumbants are still banned from cycling races.
Just because it is better doesn't mean that they are going to accept it
If i ever decide to take my cars to competions in the UK i will have my mates Alpine 7909L on standby in the boot if they don't like the Empeg.
The alpine only plays one CD but it sounds great must be the Burr Brown DACs just like the empeg
Posted by: muzza
Re: IASCA flannels - 01/12/2000 06:08
OK, so how about the judges having one empeg of their own, pre-loaded and verified by themselves?
what about your eq settings?
seems like a great expense just for the current few people who have an empeg.
____________________
Murray 06000047
what about your eq settings?
seems like a great expense just for the current few people who have an empeg.
____________________
Murray 06000047
Posted by: schofiel
Re: IASCA flamed whoppers - 01/12/2000 13:48
..you give the competitor enough time to set up. I am sure given a bit of practice, Doug could set up his EQ in no time.
Just think how good an ad it would be if the empeg did win a few competitions in this way - any swing with marketing at SBl, Rob?
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
Just think how good an ad it would be if the empeg did win a few competitions in this way - any swing with marketing at SBl, Rob?
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...
#00015
Posted by: muzza
Re: IASCA flamed whoppers - 01/12/2000 14:30
or if emplode let you store and mangae things like EQ, you could just save your EQ then sync up onto the 'regulation' Empeg.
____________________
Murray 06000047
____________________
Murray 06000047
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA finals - 01/12/2000 19:37
I suspect I am somewhat naive about the reality of a contest,
Uhhh, yeah. Think about the majority of people who enter these contests... these are not computer geeks. These are people whose idea of a good time is to put a dozen 15" subwoofers in the trunk of their car and scare the neighbors. At a typical IASCA contest, there are no computers. Period. Not with the contestants, not with the judges. These contests are music contests designed to see whose CD player can (A) play the best reproduction of the music, and (B) play the loudest. The judges are trained to operate just about any weird CD player on the planet, and to have really good ears and to know just what a particular track is supposed to sound like. But that is the limit and extent of their knowledge! They will not be even the least bit interested in in process that requires them to lug around a piece of equipment (i.e. laptop computer) and IASCA is certainly not going to change the way they do things just so the half dozen lunatics in the whole world such as myself can enter their contests with something that is not a CD player.
The only hope would be a completely non-intrusive, no-additional-workload solution, such as the empeg being able to display undisputable verification that the file currently playing has not been tampered with, but is in fact byte for byte identical to the file provided by IASCA. Apparently a simple checksum or hash is not sufficient to this purpose. I don't understand how these things work, but several people on this bbs who are a lot smarter than me (yeah, I mean you, Frank!) are saying that this is not a trivial undertaking.
When digital music players become mainstream, rather than the 1/100 of 1% of market share currently commanded by empeg, then IASCA will have to address the situation.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Uhhh, yeah. Think about the majority of people who enter these contests... these are not computer geeks. These are people whose idea of a good time is to put a dozen 15" subwoofers in the trunk of their car and scare the neighbors. At a typical IASCA contest, there are no computers. Period. Not with the contestants, not with the judges. These contests are music contests designed to see whose CD player can (A) play the best reproduction of the music, and (B) play the loudest. The judges are trained to operate just about any weird CD player on the planet, and to have really good ears and to know just what a particular track is supposed to sound like. But that is the limit and extent of their knowledge! They will not be even the least bit interested in in process that requires them to lug around a piece of equipment (i.e. laptop computer) and IASCA is certainly not going to change the way they do things just so the half dozen lunatics in the whole world such as myself can enter their contests with something that is not a CD player.
The only hope would be a completely non-intrusive, no-additional-workload solution, such as the empeg being able to display undisputable verification that the file currently playing has not been tampered with, but is in fact byte for byte identical to the file provided by IASCA. Apparently a simple checksum or hash is not sufficient to this purpose. I don't understand how these things work, but several people on this bbs who are a lot smarter than me (yeah, I mean you, Frank!) are saying that this is not a trivial undertaking.
When digital music players become mainstream, rather than the 1/100 of 1% of market share currently commanded by empeg, then IASCA will have to address the situation.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 01/12/2000 19:55
You can argue forever as to what constitutes a "copy" for example
Well, not really. The issue here isn't whether the competitor is playing a copy of the file or not, but whether he is playing the same original source as the other competitors.
Yes, you can argue that the whole purpose of the stereo system is to modify the original source at every step of the way right up to the point where the sound waves come out of the speakers. But you have to define a starting point someplace where everybody begins on an even footing. IASCA has defined that starting point as the original IASCA CD. Unless I or someone else can convince them that my music source is either the original CD or some other media that is functionally identical in every aspect to the original CD, IASCA is not going to allow digital music players.
There is a subtle slant to the purpose of their competitions. They are not trying to find out who can produce the best sounding music. They are trying to find out who can build a stereo that will do the best job of playing their CD. The base intent of this is to then convince other people that, since my Mega-Blaster 8000 with inverse capacitance bias modulation rectifier plays their CD better than your Ear-Killer Mark 7 with Ultra-Bass enhanced tweeters, you'll go visit your Mega-Blaster dealer. This is why Mega-Blaster, along with lesser brands like Sony and Panasonic, give considerable financial support to IASCA.
Hey, it's their game, so I guess they get to make the rules.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Well, not really. The issue here isn't whether the competitor is playing a copy of the file or not, but whether he is playing the same original source as the other competitors.
Yes, you can argue that the whole purpose of the stereo system is to modify the original source at every step of the way right up to the point where the sound waves come out of the speakers. But you have to define a starting point someplace where everybody begins on an even footing. IASCA has defined that starting point as the original IASCA CD. Unless I or someone else can convince them that my music source is either the original CD or some other media that is functionally identical in every aspect to the original CD, IASCA is not going to allow digital music players.
There is a subtle slant to the purpose of their competitions. They are not trying to find out who can produce the best sounding music. They are trying to find out who can build a stereo that will do the best job of playing their CD. The base intent of this is to then convince other people that, since my Mega-Blaster 8000 with inverse capacitance bias modulation rectifier plays their CD better than your Ear-Killer Mark 7 with Ultra-Bass enhanced tweeters, you'll go visit your Mega-Blaster dealer. This is why Mega-Blaster, along with lesser brands like Sony and Panasonic, give considerable financial support to IASCA.
Hey, it's their game, so I guess they get to make the rules.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: PaulWay
Re: IASCA fianls - 02/12/2000 17:02
This is more proof that the empeg Mark III needs to come with digital in and out.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Posted by: eternalsun
Re: IASCA fianls - 03/12/2000 18:23
Exactly what I said. Attach a CD ROM to the empeg, and have the empeg rip the judge's original CD and play it off the hard drive. Then all the sound would be subject to the empeg. Simple. My argument was not intended to state that running the iasca cd off the empeg hard drive is the same as running it off the judge's cd. My argument states they are different. However, you CAN argue that the hard drive is a distinct audio component in the path, and therefore if given the same starting point (judge's cd) and if you can rip the cd fast enough, then you can get away with it.
Calvin
Calvin
Calvin
Calvin
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 03/12/2000 23:38
Attach a CD ROM to the empeg, and have the empeg rip the judge's original CD and play it off the hard drive
Never happen. Aside from the fact that there is absolutely no possibility of the Judge hanging around for 30-40 minutes while the music is prepared, there is no reasonable way for a non-technically inclined judge (they're music judges, not computer geeks) to ascertain that the music being played on the empeg is in fact the same music that was just installed. Remember that the majority of judges will have never even heard of an empeg, much less seen one, operated one, or understood how the hierarchical playlist structure works.
I still maintain the only possible way for digital music to be allowed under any semblance of the rules as they are currently written, is for the empeg to have the ability to display a tamper-proof idenfitication of the currently playing file. Hey -- you could make it one of the visuals! Then all we have to do is (a) get empeg to write the software, and (b) get IASCA to understand and accept it.
Don't hold your breath.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Never happen. Aside from the fact that there is absolutely no possibility of the Judge hanging around for 30-40 minutes while the music is prepared, there is no reasonable way for a non-technically inclined judge (they're music judges, not computer geeks) to ascertain that the music being played on the empeg is in fact the same music that was just installed. Remember that the majority of judges will have never even heard of an empeg, much less seen one, operated one, or understood how the hierarchical playlist structure works.
I still maintain the only possible way for digital music to be allowed under any semblance of the rules as they are currently written, is for the empeg to have the ability to display a tamper-proof idenfitication of the currently playing file. Hey -- you could make it one of the visuals! Then all we have to do is (a) get empeg to write the software, and (b) get IASCA to understand and accept it.
Don't hold your breath.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: schofiel
Re: IASCA flippy floppers - 04/12/2000 09:49
A feature we have been hoping for for a long time
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...
#00015
Posted by: eternalsun
Re: IASCA fianls - 04/12/2000 13:54
Why would it take 40+ minutes to rip a CD? I never said encode the cd as an MP3. Theoretically you can read the cd, store the cd, play the cd in virtually real time.
Calvin
Calvin
Posted by: alear
Re: IASCA fianls - 04/12/2000 20:14
I think the empeg main board is capable of a optical output with the addition of a optical digital audio driver chip. I'm not sure if the chip is bidirectional but it sounds like if you are trying to compete in IASCA with a CD based empeg you should do it right and bypass the D/A's on CD players. Many CD players have optical outs these days. This is more of a solution for future hardware though.
Seems like if you are serious about IASCA, just buy a CD player. The cost of a CD player compared to an average IASCA system is a tiny fraction anyway.
Also, I mentioned a while ago I would analyze the Alpine Ai-Net bus to determine the protocol for controlling a CD changer (only if there is someone that can impliment that control.) Offer still stands.
Alex Lear
Seems like if you are serious about IASCA, just buy a CD player. The cost of a CD player compared to an average IASCA system is a tiny fraction anyway.
Also, I mentioned a while ago I would analyze the Alpine Ai-Net bus to determine the protocol for controlling a CD changer (only if there is someone that can impliment that control.) Offer still stands.
Alex Lear
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 05/12/2000 12:33
Seems like if you are serious about IASCA, just buy a CD player.
Yep. That's what I've decided to do. I have a halfway decent CD player that came out of my car when I got the empeg, and I have room in my dash for both, so I will use the CD player to feed the aux in on the empeg.
Of course the downside is I am adding one more processor to the signal path with some inevitable signal degradation, and I end up using the DAC from the CD player instead of the empeg.
I guess I could do some fancy wiring with switches that would allow me to bypass the empeg completely and run the CD player directly to the amplifiers... Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one. Would need an 8PDT switch, lots of opportunity for noise to leak in. Maybe someone already makes a nice A/B switch that would handle four L/R audio channels? But then I lose the empeg's parametric equalizer. Probably better to keep the EQ and suffer the small amount of signal degradation caused by playing through both the CD player and the empeg before getting to the amps.
I'm open to ideas here.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Yep. That's what I've decided to do. I have a halfway decent CD player that came out of my car when I got the empeg, and I have room in my dash for both, so I will use the CD player to feed the aux in on the empeg.
Of course the downside is I am adding one more processor to the signal path with some inevitable signal degradation, and I end up using the DAC from the CD player instead of the empeg.
I guess I could do some fancy wiring with switches that would allow me to bypass the empeg completely and run the CD player directly to the amplifiers... Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one. Would need an 8PDT switch, lots of opportunity for noise to leak in. Maybe someone already makes a nice A/B switch that would handle four L/R audio channels? But then I lose the empeg's parametric equalizer. Probably better to keep the EQ and suffer the small amount of signal degradation caused by playing through both the CD player and the empeg before getting to the amps.
I'm open to ideas here.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: pgrzelak
Re: IASCA fianls - 05/12/2000 13:10
Greetings!
A recommendation: hook it up through the empeg first, see if you can quantify the noise introduced. You might find that it is very small, or if it is enough to warrant a switch.
I don't know if the voltage differences (empeg input 1V, output 4V) will cause you any problems. If you use a switch, both inputs from to the switch should be the same approximate level. I don't know if the CD you are looking at is adjustable, or what voltage it uses, but if your amp(s) expect 4V from the empeg, you may wind up with a quiet signal if your CD isn't 4V as well. Likewise, if your CD is 4V, running it through the empeg may give you a very loud signal...
Disclaimer: I am a very basic beginner, so I don't know how practical this is for a competition level vehicle.
Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)
A recommendation: hook it up through the empeg first, see if you can quantify the noise introduced. You might find that it is very small, or if it is enough to warrant a switch.
I don't know if the voltage differences (empeg input 1V, output 4V) will cause you any problems. If you use a switch, both inputs from to the switch should be the same approximate level. I don't know if the CD you are looking at is adjustable, or what voltage it uses, but if your amp(s) expect 4V from the empeg, you may wind up with a quiet signal if your CD isn't 4V as well. Likewise, if your CD is 4V, running it through the empeg may give you a very loud signal...
Disclaimer: I am a very basic beginner, so I don't know how practical this is for a competition level vehicle.
Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: IASCA fianls - 05/12/2000 17:38
but if your amp(s) expect 4V from the empeg, you may wind up with a quiet signal if your CD isn't 4V as well
An excellent point. The CD player is putting out somewhere around 1.0--1.5V so the amp gains would be way out of whack.
Probably better to just run it through the empeg, and at least take advantage of the 20 band parametric EQ.
Thanks for pointing out such an obvious problem that I was too dense to see for myself!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
An excellent point. The CD player is putting out somewhere around 1.0--1.5V so the amp gains would be way out of whack.
Probably better to just run it through the empeg, and at least take advantage of the 20 band parametric EQ.
Thanks for pointing out such an obvious problem that I was too dense to see for myself!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"