MK2 with MK1 face?

I'm not crazy about the look of the new MK2. Would it be possible to get one that looked like the old MK1? Thanks.

I hate you :-)

Rob

I agree, it does take a little getting used to. The biggest question on my mind is whether any area from the display is cut off by the wing design.

My next big question is what were the other rejected designs? :) hmmm...

Why an airplane wing? Explain the symbolism...

Calvin

The biggest question on my mind is whether any area from the display is cut off by the wing design.

Rob said (in the other thread) that it will be fine in the final production model and won't cut off any of the display pixels.

My next big question is what were the other rejected designs?

I asked Rob this same question in a private e-mail, and he said the other rejected designs won't be shown to anyone except the few people who already saw them and were involved in the decision-making process. Since there's no way to change the design now, there's no point in showing people something they can't have. Rob said that the designs ranged from conservative to outrageous, and this one was somewhere in the middle. Personally, I think it's great.

Why an airplane wing? Explain the symbolism...

It's just a "designer thing". I'm sure there was no symbolism involved. Designers just like to work from unified graphic themes which give the piece a sort of cohesiveness. It was just a shape to start with and a theme to follow.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

I'm sorry Rob, but he's not the only one you are going to hate...

While I can see that a lot of work has gone into the new face, which many people will like, on first sight I don't think I could live with it. I love the look of my blue Mk1, the clean sharp lines suit the unit perfectly. It also has the benefit that it blends into the dash which makes it a much less obvious target when left in the car when I'm paying for my petrol.

So, is there any chance of a "classic" face choice for the Mk2.

Aren't customers just bloody awkward.

By the way I received my empeg case today, it's very well put together. The only problem is I managed to accidentally order the blue one rather than the black one (unless it was a cock-up at empeg's end, I know which is more likely).

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

We won't be selling Mark 2 players with Mark 1 faces. A hole for the volume knob would need to be drilled, a new cap for it would be required, the IR (which has moved onto a daughterboard) would need to be desoldered and kludged back onto the display board, and the metalwork is not compatible with a Mark 1 handle so the moulded curvey handle would have to stay.

Hopefully less people will be turned off by the Mark 2 than were by the Mark 1 face. The Mark 1 really wasn't suitable for wider retail sale and we wanted to open this option. A lot of clients have asked for a moulded panel - maybe they wanted something more traditional, but empeg isn't about traditional styling :-)

Wait until you see the finished product, then give it a couple of weeks - believe me, this design grows on you.

About your carry case - if your invoice says Blue then that's what you ordered, the web site automatically feeds the sales system. If you want to return the case (in good condition!) I can swap it for you.

Rob

The only people that have seen the other concept drawings are Hugo, Mike and myself. After making our decision I requested that JB take back the other designs - not even the other empeg people have seen them. We had to choose a design at very short notice due to the long lead times in tooling for injection moulding (bear in mind we didn't start this project until the front panel thread on here was well underway). Maybe we'll dig out the other designs for the archives, but for now any discussion of them would be highly non productive :-)

There's no particular symbolism to the aerofoil design - we just kept coming back to it and took that to be an indication that it was the one to go for. The distinctive configuration of the four buttons may well become an empeg trademark, or at least crop up now and again in our literature.

Rob

...or at least crop up now and again in our literature.

Speaking of literature...

Do you guys have any printed brochures? For instance, the sort of thing you might hand out at a convention? If you did, I'd love to have some to keep in the carrying case with the Empeg. That way, when someone asks me what it is, I can hand 'em the brochure.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

I personally LOVE the new face... very cool looking indeed...

-D



---
reg. number 10798 - waiting...

I would also like something along those lines. Every time I'm at the drivethrough for coffee I have to take ten minutes to explain what that "cool" stereo is.

A brochure would save me some time.

Reg_2845 Serial #00173

We do have printed brochures (the ones from C.E.S) which we're unlikely to use again at any shows. They describe the Mark 2 features but show the Mark 1 face, because we hadn't thought of the new face when they went to print. They also refer to a maximum capacity of 36Gb where as it is now likely to be 50Gb.

If you have some use for some of them, send me an email with your postal address.

Rob

Hi,

In reply to:

---

Do you guys have any printed brochures? For instance, the sort of thing you might hand out at a convention? If you did, I'd love to have some to keep in the carrying case with the Empeg. That way, when someone asks me what it is, I can hand 'em the brochure.

---

I'd prefer to see a updated user manual for the MK1...

Regards,


_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).

There will be an updated user guide. I'm not sure yet whether one guide will cover both Mark 1 and Mark 2 (since the former is largely a subset of the latter) or whether there will be two guides.

Rob

I hate you :-)

You can please all of the people some of the time... or some of the people all of the time... buuuuut.......

(O|||||O)

(I think it looks good either way, and I'll definitely be one of the first (well, #0596 to be precise) to order the MK2)

now likely to be 50Gb

"50 gig .... hmmmmmmm" ... Homer Simpson

Any idea on pricing for the monster? Maybe I'll fly for that instead of a 20Gb. I have to say that I'm not a fan of the new design either. I'm prepared to wait and see the finished product, but I'm much more of a minimalist when it comes to these things. Don't take this to heart, but the new design looks like it should have 'Tomy' in the corner and be bought from Toys 'R Us.

My 'ideal' would be for a clean, dark plate display, programmable touch screen with LCD display. Anyone with a Pronto (Philips or Marantz RC5000) remote control will know what I mean about programmable displays. Once you've used one, you'll never go back to buttons! And how cool would it look in dash? It would just look like a display unit.

I REALLY don't like to aerofoil design. In fact, at this stage, I'd rather have a MkI.

J.

A company can never please ALL people -- so, it must shoot for the widest possible audience. I'm pretty darn picky and have always raved about the Mk1's simplicity of form; it's so simple-looking it's elegant.

However, the Empeg-Car needed something for introduction into the wider car audio world and I think the recently-shown Mk2 concept art delivers by drawing upon the Mk1's elegance and extending it.

It's been kept simple. It's appearance is tidy and functional. I particularly like the curves that have been introduced and think that Empeg did a fantastic job both listening and responding to its vocal beta owners when they spoke up about a desire for a change in look.

I suspect that the chosen colour for the moulding will be black (because that's what will work well in most dashes and colour cordination with the display becomes much less of an issue). However, I'm willing to bet that Tony's proposed faux wood implementation is running a close second. *smirk*

While others may not be turned on by it, I am ECSTATIC with the look of the Mk2.

-- Bleys



"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

However, I'm willing to bet that Tony's proposed faux wood implementation is running a close second.

I was about to come back with a defensive remark about how the faux wood thing was suggested by someone else, and I made that drawing as a joke.

But I just bought a new Accord, and the interior has some faux wood accents. So a faux wood face might actually look good in my new car. Scary.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Can't say I like this new design much either - I really liked the minimalist look of the MKI. I can already see some people reverse-engineering their empeg's for that retro (MKI) look.

But hell, I'm still anxiously awaiting my Empeg

> So a faux wood face might actually look good in my new car

I think what you mean to say is that a faux wood finish would match your
new car. Subtle distinction, but nonetheless...

> the new design looks like it should have 'Tomy' in the corner

Judging from the photos currently available I know where you're coming from. The final finish will really make the product (or so the designers have promised us!) - the choice of materials, texture and colour should present a very professional image.

We don't have any pricing on the 25/50Gb models yet, by the way. Give it a month or two.

Rob

> Empeg did a fantastic job both listening and responding to its vocal beta owners

I'm glad you said that. I went out on a limb to push this new panel through after the long BBS thread about styling. It hasn't been cheap, and if nobody likes it I'll probably lose my job.

Rob

PS Just kidding about the job - I HOPE!

> I can already see some people reverse-engineering their empeg's for that retro (MKI) look

You don't see many people doing this to their Clarion or Blaupunkt head units, and they're far less minimalist than the Mark 2 empeg!

Rob

I really hope that the aerofoil shape is not so pronounced in the production units. I'm not a fan.

Completely off-topic - does anyone have an idea as to the instrument lighting colour in the Mustang Cobra?! I know the dials are white background for that 'sporty' look but not sure of the instrumentation.

Rob, that's not a reason. ("but the competitors..")

I think as long as the face is fully spec'd out, I can imagine a aftermarket for empeg faces. Think Nokia, because before Nokia came up with the replacable faces, no cell phone maker in the industry had any idea people DONT like the factory cell phone face. Once the option was there, a significant portion of the cell phone users signing on, signed on because they COULD change the look of the face. I know this thread has been treaded upon previously ("carbon fiber, faux wood..") but figure this: if your aerofoil face does not satisfy the clients, make it simple for the aftermarket to come up with replacements.

Calvin

It would be easy to manufacture an after-market face for the empeg - but they would be extremely expensive! It costs tens of thousands of pounds to tool for injection moulding, and machined faces (like the Mark 1) cost a lot to manufacture. Both types then have to be EMC screened with a transparant conductive material (either ITO or embedded mesh) which is also very expensive.

I think it would be sweet if a third party produced alternative faces for the empeg, but I don't see how they would make any money until we've sold a LOT more players.

Note that we will be selling colour change panels for the Mark 2 - the transparant part is a seperate panel which can be replaced in isolation, so they shouldn't be too pricey - hopefully no more expensive than the Mark 1 replacement panels. That doesn't help with your dislike of the styling, but it keeps open that option to match in with the dash if you change car.

Rob

I have a question that eternalsun asked that you did not answer:
It appears as though the new face plate will lessen the space on the display available for visualizations and stuff like that by covering up some of the screen, also the buttons look more cumbersome than the original pictures. I dont have one yet (i cant wait!) so i may be way off, but thats what it looked like in the cad renderings so i was just curious.

It appears as though the new face plate will lessen the space on the display available for visualizations and stuff like that by covering up some of the screen, also the buttons look more cumbersome than the original pictures.

Elsewhere, Rob said that the molded faceplate would not cover any of the display pixels in the final production version. The size and shape of the actual display pixels has not changed, and the curves of the molded face will just barely brush the corners of the display.

The buttons won't be any more cumbersome than the current buttons. If anything, it looks like they might be less prone to sticking (the Mark1 buttons can sometimes stick if the faceplate isn't adjusted and tightened just right).

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Actually, he did answer that. He said that in that particular design there were a few pixels on the top left corner that got cut off if looked down at, but they insisted that this be fixed before production. I thought this too.

And I have to say to Lord Bleys, functionality? What functionality? Are you looking at the same big area on the top left corner that I am? Mind telling me what that's for? You'd have to put me on that list of people dissapointed with the new design. You say you want to appeal to a broader market? Then why do most of the people on here not like it? How many car stereos have you seen that look like that? It is just plain and simply NOT a car stereo design (this may be what you're going for, I don't know, but I wouldn't).

So perhaps I should clarify my opinion. I like the design, but definitely not for a car stereo. Sure, the airplane wing will probably look cool in a boat or something, but what about a Volvo station wagon? Example: black is a simple color, and everything goes with it. Not many car styles will go with this. It will probably look even worse in a home audio setting.

To be honest, I really like the button and knob style, but I don't think you used alot of common sense in the overall face design.

With that said, I'm still going to buy one, but I just thought I'd say that there's a reason for that conventional straight edge, black-face design.

Sorry to be a pain, but I have to say I don't care for it (based on the conceptual drawings) either. I would think that something like JVC's El Kameleon would really be ideal. No buttons, or buttons that are virtually invisible while off, and a screen that takes up nearly the whole area. Simple, attractive, most thieves would never notice it, and there would be a lot of space for visuals. Maybe modify the docking tray so that a firm push on the face would cause the whole unit to eject, thereby getting rid of the need for a handle which looks odd and wastes space.

-Mike

The display is the same size, it's not covered up.

To put the buttons into perspective, the circular top button is the same diameter as the buttons on the Mark 1. I'm not sure what you mean by cumbersome, but they take exactly the same amount of effort to press and use the same positive action switches as the Mark 1.

Rob

The mk2 *will* be black (or very close charcoal I suspect). The renderings aren't supposed to be colour accurate!

I think people who *don't* have empegs think that the entire front of the mk1 is a display - which it isn't. The display is a smaller area in the centre of the panel.

Hugo

I thought it had white-face instruments with white illumination (but you should check this with your dealer).

rob / empeg team -

i´m a bit disappointed by the new mk2´s design, as well as my wife, who is waiting on the queue (12...) as i do (65..).
altman is right when saying the black fits all. currently i have an becker mexico, which has a black face as well. becker´s user-interface is known to be famous for user-interaction - an it has an great design.

why, for hell, are you going to kick the inner values of the empeg with such a horrible design ? would´nt it be better to have a kind of poll getting the board (->interested users !) into the selection process ? asking for comments ? for now, again, you see your customers in reaction to your decisions.

i really really hope that you will be able to provide any kind of frontplate-replacement. for me, designs like becker or blaupunkt are heading to a "good"-interface and design. i´m not the market, but thats my opinion - and i see the board heading towards the same direction.

please, think about it !

best regards
djangoo, germany, waiting since 12.04.99

> altman is right when saying the black fits all.

Yeah, and that's why the panel is going to be black. You don't think we're going to use those colours from the cad rendering do you? They're just to show up each of the parts.

> why, for hell, are you going to kick the inner values of the empeg with such a horrible design

A lot of people said the same thing about the Mark 1.

Rob

Firstly, I Like the minimalist look of the Mark 1.
However, I think the proposed Mark 2 looks fantastic..

It's the car stereo of the future, why should it look like all the others...

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

> It's the car stereo of the future, why should it look like all the others...

One of the designs we rejected was a very conventional, "nice" looking car stereo. At first glance it could have been an empeg, it could have been a CD head, it could have been a $99 tape head.

I know this thread would be a lot shorter if we'd gone with that design, but we're not a conventional company and I hope we never will be!

Rob

I've been watching these threads for the last few days, and I just have to say that I don't see how anyone could say that the new Mark 2 face is worse than the Mark 1 face. I think it's fantastic, and I just don't see what you're complaining about.

For those who have expressed displeasure with the design, consider these things:

1) Imagine it in black or dark charcoal instead of the enhanced colors shown on the design screen. That's what it'll be moulded in.

2) Do you actually own a Mark 1? If you've never seen a Mark 1 close-up, and you're complaining about the Mark 2 design, you probably need to get some real face time with a Mark 1 to understand what an improvement it is.

3) Have you looked at a Crutchfield catalog recently? Thumb through the catalog with the Mark 2 design up on the screen in front of you. The Mark 2 design is a model of simplicity, elegance, and grace. Nothing at all like the gaudy, excessive, complicated designs you see in that catalog.

Who's with me on this?

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

I am very positive about the buttons. They are great ergonomically because they are different sizes and shapes. One of the most important ergonomic considerations on car stereos is how to mold and shape the controls so you can work them without looking at the device physically -- this is very important in a car. This is one the great failings of the credit card remote because all the buttons are the same and could be dangerous to use while the vehicle is in motion. If you examine a lot of the popular aftermarket car stereos out there, you'll find that even though some of them have a dozen buttons, every one of them is shaped, positioned and oriented so that a hand feeling around can tell one from another. Some of the worst stereos out there have simply a row of identical buttons...

The mark 1 is ok ergonomically with its 4 buttons orientation-wise, but as soon as you get into the remote, uh oh!

Calvin

The Kameleon is definitely cool but ergonomically all those similarly sized buttons all along the bottom, come on! They really sacrificed usability for fashion.

Calvin

I didn't mean to start so much trouble with this thread. The more I look at it, the more it grows on me. I'm looking forward to seeing the picture that Rob mentioned next week. Don't get me wrong though...I still can hardly wait to get one!

Straight up, the design is great. I know that many people don't believe that it is a stereo and ask more about the CD in the dash (For radio sorry folks and previewing CDs before I rip them).
I believe this panel is great but what about the button colour?
Will they be black like the panel or available in bright colours like the sketches?



-- Murray
Empeg changed my life and it did happen overnight.

OK, I think rob has copped enough crap over this. If you had bothered to read all the previous posts, you would have already had answers to some of your questions like "why wasn't there a vote?" etc etc..

Personally, I like the minimalist look (of the previous design). What I don't really like is "portal" effect the curvy shape has making it look like the screen is obscured even if it's not. I do like the buttons arrangement though.

There, I have that off my chest but I don't have to crucify bob in the process. Sometimes in order to be progressive, you have to bite the bullet and make decisions on the spot. That's what leaders do and they don't *always* get it right. In any case, I applaud bob for his efforts because it's this sort of initiative which has achieved a sterling product to date.

Maybe when everyone at empeg has made lots more money, there will be some spare to spend on tooling for a "skins" based interface. And if they still choose not to, then bad luck. It's still a great product. Until then, stop winging and bitching about it.

I believe this panel is great but what about the button colour? Will they be black like the panel or available in bright colours like the sketches?

Personally, I'm hoping for backlit buttons.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

And I have to say to Lord Bleys, functionality? What functionality?

Re: functionality of form
The unoccupied area in the left corner keeps me from fingerprinting the display pane when working with buttons -- a problem with the current design because I find myself cleaning the faceplate almost daily. You called it "large". It's actually not that big...

The buttons are contoured so that I know which one I'm touching when driving at night (in the dark) -- without having to get distracted fingering the panel to find out where my fingers are relative to it.

The "wing" slopes to the right and draws my eye away from the buttons and toward the display -- which is where I want my passengers' eyes to be.

The knob is well-placed and placed large enough to find easily in the dark. As a bonus it appears to be raised enough that I need not worry about fingerprinting the faceplate section covering the IR receiver.

The faceplate will most likely be black (at this point I think it's confirmed in another thread, here) to avoid style/matching problems in most vehicles.

That's what I meant by functional... I'm glad you asked -- because my .sig definately applies in this case.

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Who's with me on this?

I am. Especially with your last point. And I'm glad that the Empeg team did something unconventional. I DO NOT want a car stereo that looks or acts just like all the others -- that's why I bought an Empeg in the first place.

Cutting edge technology deserves cutting edge design. Cutting edge design is typically VERY different from currently-accepted lines of thinking. Currently-accepted lines of thinking become boring very quickly. I don't like boring things...

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Personally, I'm hoping for backlit buttons.

I asked about backlit buttons long ago. Funny you mention it, here, because today I raised it in the Mk2 Fascia thread, as well. I have the same hope -- although I think the contoured buttons will alleviate the need entirely so it's no big deal either way...

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

tfabris-
I don't know if you were responding to me in the middle part of your post, but I specifically said that I liked the buttons and the knob, so I don't know why you were defending them.

I will, like many others wait for the new pics. Also, if you saw what Rob said, the top-left corner will be lessened due to the fact that it covered some of the pixels. This was my major peeve, that it didn't seem to have much consideration for the actual screen and didn't seem to match it. I suppose it's just that I'm not used to this kind of button/display combination on a car stereo. The display is a little larger than some normal ones, but the fact that there's so many fewer buttons (therefore leaving so much more room on the face) is what throws me off.

Oh-well. As I said, I'll still buy it, and I can't wait to see what it will look like.

Been waiting longer, and don't choose to prevent a June 9 releaese over a silly fascia...............maybe when there are 20 other players like the Emgeg we can be discriminant..Besides ,"beauty is only skin deep".

Good point

"beauty is only skin deep".

Yeah, but Ugly goes right to the bone.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Don't you think you're being presumptuous when you claim to speak for "most of the people here"?

I, for one, *love* the new design. I wish I could get it in silver like the render. I've never liked the spartan look of the Mark I, but this new design is excellent.

So, if you don't like it, fine. But you don't speak for me or anyone else.

I would hardly say that a "50Gig" bone is ugly.

>I REALLY don't like to aerofoil design. In fact, at this stage, I'd rather have a MkI

Good. Hopefully there are a bunch of people like you who will happily buy my Mark I so I can buy the Mark 2, which is much better looking!

NasalGoat, man, getting a little mean there aren't you?

I have no idea who you were refering to in your post about the person who was "speaking for most of the people here", so since my post is the one that most closely matches the phrase you mentioned, I will reply. I think you should read more closely. I simply made an observation that most of the people posting were unhappy with the new design. This is just the way it appeared to me. In no way did I say that I was "speaking for the people".

If I was not the person you were posting about, then please specify next time, but since it appears your post was a reply to one by Jens who didn't say anything like what you mentioned, I am confused.

ps-I'd just make it perfectly clear that the thing that mostly turned me off about the new design is that in the renderings, it appeared that there was no way for the screen to fit correctly, and this made it appear like the functionality was taking a back seat to marketability.

I think rob has made it clear that the screen will fit fine. Those were renderings and can be adjusted to fit the screen correctly.

> most of the people posting were unhappy with the new design

Yes, but there are only about 15 participants in this thread. There are 15,000 people in our mailing list, most of whom have probably looked at the Mark 2 design by now. People don't tend to make much effort to speak out if they're happy with something, only if they're unhappy.

I've also noticed that most of the positive comments have been emailed to me directly rather than being posted here. I guess some people don't want to risk getting into a flame war.

> it appeared that there was no way for the screen to fit correctly

I overlaid graphics TO SCALE (near as possible anyway) just to prove that they do fit! If you wanted you could take measurements from the rendering (which is output directly from the SolidWorks file) and prove this to yourself.

Rob

I overlaid graphics TO SCALE ( . . ) just to prove that they do fit!
Thanks for describing how you decided that they fit; very clever procedure indeed, but I had already taken your word on it.

If you wanted you could take measurements ( . . ) and prove this to yourself!
I'd rather have you do something useful


Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

I know, I know. Again, I was just saying this was how it appeared to me.

For someone who doesn't own a unit, it's hard to know the size of the screen. You have to admit, It looks like the top-left edge of the "airplane wing" is awful close to the "e" in empeg, at least in the rendering.

I overlaid graphics TO SCALE ( . . ) just to prove that they do fit!
Umm.. Did you allow for the flourecent panel isn't hard up against the front panel? Don't get me wrong, I like the new layout, I just want to know that people viewing from the side can see the funky graphics.
If you did a 3D render and showed viewing angles, all is sweet.

I have seen JVCs el Kameleon and can say that the blank panel, similar to Mk 1s, is pretty ordinary. Especially when they claim "if there is nothing to see, there is nothing to steal." What crap. Empeg's line could be "if there is nothing there except a hole in the dash where the stereo used to be, the car has already been hit, or has it?"
In my opinion, ($0.02), the new front panel is just the icing on the cake of a fantastic product.



-- Murray
Empeg changed my life and it did happen overnight.

Rob,

You're right. When people like something, then tend to stay quiet. Unless I've got a gripe or a suggestion, I keep my mouth shut. I'll admit that I didn't like the new design when I first saw it. But, I'm the kind of person who likes to find every little thing wrong with something, so I had it open in my browser window for about 20 minutes as I was reading the latest batch of messages from the list. During that time, it grew on me. Now... I *love* it! Try to keep looking at it for a while... it'll probably grow on you, too.


George

> Did you allow for the flourecent panel isn't hard up against the front panel?

Don't forget that we have a physical model! As I've said before, this has showed up that if the stereo is mounted low down in the car (so the viewing angle is quite oblique) then a few pixels at the top left of the screen are masked. I've asked the designers to fix this.

Rob