MkIIa handle not flush with fascia?

I noticed an oddity with my MkIIa. The handle isn't nearly as flush with the fascia as the one on my MkII. Actually there is a rather noticable gap between the handle and the bottom of the fascia. Anyone else notice this? Particularly anyone with both a MkII and MkIIa... I guess it's a minor gripe but it is a bit unsightly because the silver of the steel chassis shows through. The gap isn't huge, maybe 1/16" or so. I will try to get a picture soon. Any adjustments I can make to fix this? Besides electrical tape over the chassis to make it black. :)

It's there... but it counts for wiggle room when a new color faceplate goes on I guess.

Calvin

The fascia has wiggle room to move up/down and side/side a little bit when you loosen the screws. A tiny bit. This can slightly reduce the gap. There's no way that I can see for you to cover the gap up completely without external manipulation.

Given a common mounting angle in a car and the direction of sunlight and interior lighting, for most people, the chasis may never be visible. Setup at home on a rack or desk may be very different. My suggestion is if you want to cover it up, as you mentioned, go with the electrical tape cut carefully, or mask the chasis and apply a thin strip of black paint. I'll leave it up to you to decide between a brush and a spray can. I'd choose a small brush though. :)

If you look at the way the handle is mounted to the outside of the chasis, you'll notice there isn't any way to adjust its vertical position - otherwise that would be a convenient way to remove the gap.

You can also make sure to ask whomever decides to make new custom fascias to purposely take the size difference into account and design the piece to cover the gap.

My couple of cents anyway.

Bruno

Yah but my original question... Do you have the same gap on yours? There is none on my MkII.

Sorry, I realise that in my stooper I didn't actually say I had the gap on mine. Here it is:

Yes, I have the exact same sized gap, just as you described, on my brand new MK2a Riocar (received this week). :) Hehe.

I have a Mk2 and a Mk2a ( was planned as back up now his and hers) and the build of the chassis of the 2a doesn't seem to be quite as high as the 2 it is still very good but not as good as the mk2

Also the cage doesn't seem as good but the new looms seem slightly better

The original cages were a damn impressive piece of engineering and i don't kno how much of a loss they made of them but the old price could not of covered it.

Actually, the metalwork on the 2a (including sled) was more expensive than the mk2 - we had supplier problems and the metalwork tended to be coated in grease/metal filings (not ideal for electronics) which required cleaning at the factory.

The mk2a metalwork suppliers did a very good job, and also improved the design of the lid (mk2a's have angled lips, which makes fitting/removing the lid much easier).

What build quality problem did you notice? I've always thought the mk2a's were marginally better made...

Hugo

the quality of the steel doesn't seem as high and the holes on the 2a aren't as nicely rounded as the Mk2.

The gaps on the 2a are slightly tighter i will say that

But i am far from unhappy about it the quality is still light years ahead of anything from the big boys like alpine etc. The cages are brilliant

Hugo, can you comment on my original statement? I notice about a 1/16" gap between the handle and the bottom of the fascia on my MkIIa that is not at all present on my MkII. I am not sure what is causing this but in this thread others are saying they see the gap too. Was this done by choice?

Yes, it was done by choice; the mk1 handle was far too tight and caused problems so we made sure there was a slight gap - it also had to take into account casting tolerances for the aluminium handle, which is hard to make as accurately as the plastic of the bezel.

Hugo

Thanks for the info, but actually I was asking about the difference between the Mk2 and the Mk2a, not the Mk1. Was there an additional gap added for the Mk2a?

No, the design was not changed between mk2 and mk2a. The handles were cast by a different company though - but as they were from the same CAD, in theory they should be the same. The coating process was definitely different though.

Hugo

Hrmm.. Well there is a definite difference on mine. The MkII handle was flush with the bottom of the fascia, on my MkIIa it's a bit off. I'll chalk it up to the difference in the companies and such. Just wanted to know if I'm the only one who noticed this.

The difference could just be due to a difference in adjustment of your fascia.

You can loosen the hex bolts and scootch the fascia up and down, the tighten the fascia again. If you're careful about it, you can get a pretty good compromise between handle gap and buttons which don't stick, then tighten the bolts a little bit.

The difference could just be due to a difference in adjustment of your fascia.

Nah... I thought about that first. No amount of fascia adjustment is going to do it. This isn't like a tiny gap. To give an idea, I can fit a credit card in the gap very easily, two credit cards on top of each other fit in a little more snugly. I'm not sure what that amounts to in terms of measurement, but it's nothing that a fascia adjustment can take care of, unfortunately.

Here's what my MkIIa looks like. Your gap seems to be much larger than
what I see on my unit...

/Michael

Okay here are a couple pictures of mine. My MkII looks pretty much like yours, no real appreciable gap to see. I also grabbed a closeup of the left side to show how not only is there a gap on the bottom, but the handle doesn't really come close to the top left edge of the fascia. It appears the entire handle is "shifted down" by a little bit.

And yes, those are Double Stuff Oreos in the background. That is NOT product placement! They were there when I took the pictures, honest. :)

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You can really notice the difference best if you look at how the curved indentation on the left-hand side of the screen matches up between the facia and the handle. On the first image it matches, on the second pair of images it doesn't.

My Mk2a matches the second pair, it has a noticable gap. Not that it matters.

Yeah exactly. The airfoil pattern doesn't align the same way it does on my MkII. I didn't snap a picture of my MkII for comparison because it's almost identical to the MkIIa picture posted earlier in this thread. Both of the pictures I snapped are of my MkIIa. The closeup pic shows the gap (and the mismatch of the airfoil groove) better.

At first I would have said that it looks as though the holes for the Handle Mounting Screws have been drilled in the wrong position. I've had a look at mine though and the Handle Mounting Plates sit quite snugly into a recess in the Handle so I don't think it's that. Only other thing I can think of is that your Display Board is sitting a bit high (the fascia mounts onto this). Have you tried to loosen the four Display Board Mounting Screws (located on the sides of the player) and pushing down to see if it moves into a better position?

edit: Mines a MkII btw.

Ah. Try this:

loosen off the 4 screws that hold the display board (at the front of the sides of the box), push the fascia down slightly, and then re-tighten. If you get binding problems with the top of the handle against the fascia, you may need to slide it up again.

There is a teeny bit of play in the mounting points to allow for adjustment of the entire display/fascia up & down.

Hugo

Hey!! Is there an echo in here?

Hadn't got to your post in the thread at that point :)

Hugo

That's not the case - I had the new casting company review the gating for the Mk.2A because the shoulder of the Mk.2 handle would often rub against the fascia. I also instructed the factory to assemble the fascia at the upper tolerance of vertical position.

Rob

Mmm, though I thought the problem was more that the handle casting company wasn't making them to spec quite often. The metalwork itself (ie, the stainless steel bit) did not change in any way with relation to handle position or hole position.

ISTR, anyway.

Hugo

The design didn't change, it was a process issue.

Rob

OK you're forgiven - but only because of who you are!! I wouldn't be so lenient with just anybody you know.

mine (mk2a) has that gap too. in my case it's probably because the wrong screws were used at the pivot points on the handle. (all six of the screws in the handle are the same)

Tell us details about your custom rotary control.

Hmm don't know how the screws would affect that but I guess it's possible. I haven't had time to mess with it but Hugo's solution sounds plausible.

No, we've already been through the "Rob's Knob" discussion, let's not rehash that...

because the screws I have don't screw into the handle so they just float in the holes

Re-check his attached picture.

Tell us details about your custom rotary control

Oops, sorry, missed this one previously.

It's made of alumin(i)um stock, turned to a slight taper (sligthly wider at the base), slightly concave top. I made it as a proof of concept before talking to a friend about making one in stainless (my small lathe doesn't much like stainless...) The final one will have grabby nothes milled or ground into the circumference/edge of front surface - with this one I almost always have to grip it to turn it.

The one thing I don't like is the hole for the grub screw... Unsightly it is...
Anyone with any good ideas about other ways of securing the knob to the D-shaped axle? On this one there's a 6mm hole for the axle from the rear and a 2.5mm hole threaded to M3 from the side. When installing I make sure the grub screw goes against the flat of the 'D'.

/Michael

/Michael

"Anyone with any good ideas about other ways of securing the knob to the D-shaped axle?"

how about blue loctite

ways of securing the knob to the D-shaped axle

Didn't notice this when you posted initially. Are you saying that your unit has its knob attached to an axle that is not wholly cylindrical? That it has a flat face molded out of the curved surface, so that it's capital-D-shaped?

If so, my unit's not like that. I have a solid cylinder that the knob fits on. Maybe this was changed between Mk2 and Mk2a, as there was a problem with the original knobs slipping on the axle. I and (I assume) many others had to have new knobs shipped out. They fixed the problem by using a small rubbery O-ring in the new knob to grab the axle.

So either whoever needs to watch out and make sure that any newly fabricated knobs will fit on both axles, if there are two, or maybe the O-ring is your answer.

You're right. The MkIIa does have a flat on the shaft for just the reason you suggest. I'm not sure whether later MkIIs have it as well though. I got mine in October 2000 and mine doesn't have the flat. This is something I'll have to keep in mind if my custom Fascias, Buttons & Knobs ever get into production.

The interesting thing is that I just got the rotary on my Mk2 replaced (it wasn't working properly), and the new one is also fully cylindrical. While I suppose it's possible that they wanted to keep the ``correct'' thing on my Mk2, it might also be possible that it's more random than that.

Hmmm... very interesting...
Maybe they've got some of those left in stock which they want to get rid of first, or as you say they might just want to keep everything to original spec.

It's not random at all - the Mk.2 has a round shaft and the Mk.2A has a keyed shaft. The same components are used in servicing.

Rob

If you're finding it hard to access the screws for the display board, there always another solution available. YMMV of course.


Bruno

how about blue loctite

Hmmmm, the fit isn't very tight to begin with (empeg guys, is the axle spec'ed as x.y mm or 1/x inch?) with a 6 mm hole, and 5.5 was too small. How hard does blue loctite get - it might be a case of too loose a fit to make loctite work unless it hardens fully. And I would prefer to be able to remove the knob without destroying the rotary encoder...

I've been toying with the idea of making a small spring, shaped like a 'b' but with taller vertical top and without the lower part of the vertical. The vertical part would press-fit into a radially milled recess at the back of the knob and the bent part would occupy the space of the 'missing' part of the axle, inside the hole. See attachment. Spring is dark blue, D-shaped part of axle is red.

Comments?

/Michael

I believe blue is the removable kind I don't know how hard it would be to remove from an application like this. I use it on screws in rc cars to keep them from vibrating out but they are still removable. red is almost impossible to remove. they have several different kinds if you look at a loctite package they have them all listed

how about blue loctite

Very dangerous. If the knob is attached to the shaft too securely, you will break the fill nipple on the VFD when you try to remove the knob.

There is an empeg owner in Menlo Park, California who can personally attest to this. :-(

tanstaafl.

thats why I suggested the blue it's not supposed to be permanant. but your probably right anyway

can you put the grub screw back far enough so it is covered by the face panel

How would you then get at it?

is it possible to make a keyway? have a hole the size of the shaft and an overlapping (pref square) for a square section key to slot into.

have a hole the size of the shaft and an overlapping (pref square) for a square section key to slot into

Could you sketch that? I can't visualize it...

As to putting the grub screw further back: could be done, but would require drilling a small hole through the fascia, probably from below, so that you could get the allen wrench in to the grub screw.

/Michael

Not being near a good computer for a little while, I'll try to invoke yur imagination.

Imagine a round hole. now imagine a smaller square hole as well but slightly off-set to the round one. The spindel sits in the round hole and the 'key' (square section rod) sits on the flat of the spindle and into the square hole. The problem is getting the tolerances right and a key the right size. But hey, if you're manufacturing stuff anyway....

put on the knob and then the face

I'll try to invoke yur imagination

Ah, OK, I think I get it... See attached pic. Getting the tolerances correct for a fit that would be able to be hand assenbled and disassembled without hurting the rotary encoder or other components is, I fear, out of my league...

So I'd still need a way to make sure the knob doesn't fall off the axle...
Then I think I might as well just make a section replacing the cut away material of the D section so that the axle is round again (attached with superglue or some sort of permanent LocTite) and go at it with a groove for an O-ring in the knob hole. That we'd probably be able to make work w/o too much trouble, as we're both used to working on/with paintball gear.

/Michael

> put on the knob and then the face

Except that the colour/color panel should be put on first as the knob's hole is too small to allow the head of the knob through.

Man, people are making a huge deal out of something so easy to fix/hide. Unless I'm missing something very subtle that differs in the way this new knob is supposed to work.

The fascia currently fits over the knob. It currently covers up a portion of the knob. Put a hole for a set screw as far back and as small as possible so it is completely hidden when the fascia is put on.

What else would work... A small piece of rubber placed on the flat part of the stalk creating a firm grip when the knob is attached. Likewise, a small flat piece of metal, no wider than the diameter of the stalk, bent into a V shape and placed with one of its sides attached to the stalk (open end toward empeg). Then slide the knob on for a firm fit (if the V piece was made properly - you could also slot a little into the back of the knob after it's been turned (on the lathe, not by hand on the stalk :)

There are also other ways of making the knob - in multiple pieces for instance. Though it would be a little more work to have it all fit together nicely.

Oh, and there's always looking at other metal knobs out there on other products to see how they do it. :)

Bruno

I see two problems. One is how to get the knob to attach to the keyed shaft. The second is how to get it to also attach to the non-keyed shaft.

I don't know how the current knob is attached to the keyed shaft, but it's attached to the non-keyed shaft by means of an O-ring, as I've mentioned before. More specifically, one puts this O-ring into the knob, where it just barely fits. There is a shelf inside the knob's hole on which it rests, but the shaft extends past it into a smaller hole that keeps it level, while the O-ring is sized just right so that it presses against both the knob and shaft, keeping it from moving in and out without significant effort. I don't see why the same system can't be used for the new knob. You'd need to make sure the shelf was rounded so that the shaft wouldn't catch on it when applying the knob, but little beyond that need be changed from the plastic version.

I haven't seen a keyed shaft, but I assume that it's not keyed along its entire length. There ought to be a point at which it becomes a solid cylinder again. So why not make a patch to fill out the key so that it becomes a full cylinder again? It could conceivably be made out of aluminum as well, but it might make more sense to make it out of hard rubber or plastic instead. It might be a little tricky holding the patch while pushing the knob on, but, once the knob's applied, the same pressure holding it on should hold the patch on as well.

This all assumes that the keyed shaft is of the same diameter as the non-keyed shaft, but an O-ring with a different internal diameter should be able to fix that problem as well. In addition, the O-rings and small patches should be cheap, at least in comparison to the knob itself.

...as the knob's hole is too small to allow the head of the knob through.

Couldn't you make the hole bigger?

tanstaafl.

is there enough material to put a decent thread for a grub screw?

Couldn't you make the hole bigger?

IIRC it's been mentioned that enlargeninig the hole might allow unwanted
noise (electric) to leak out. Don't know if that would be an issue if the knob is metal instead of plastic as the original. And I don't recall seeing many trouble reports from people using DarkStorms uncoated fascias (myself included, on the MkI)

And yes the front (but not the fascia) can go over the knob, so you can put the grub screw further back. [dopeslap] x 80
I'll make another grub screw hole in my prototype knob tomorrow and report back...

/Michael

is there enough material to put a decent thread for a grub screw?

It's not like you need something huge to provide enormous forces, and there's definately enough material for an M3 thread - slightly smaller than 1/8" (same as the allen head screws keeping the front and fascia on) Even in alumin(i)um there's no problem and stainless is far stronger.

/Michael