Post VW install, and sound quality side effects

This might be long. Let me apologize in advance...

Curious if anybody out there in empeg land has installed their empeg in a mid-nineties VW Golf or Jetta.
I have a 1995 Golf and a co-worker of mine has a 1997 Jetta. Both had basic stock sound systems from the factory.
We both now have Mk2 empegs, the same amps (Kenwood KAC748's), the same rear speakers (Cerwin Vega HED 1652E's), slightly different front speakers (I have Rockford Fosgates, his are Polks), and the same factory tweeters.

Thats the background.

The problem is in my car it sounds like all the bass is being stripped out of the music. I get pretty much only highs, and a little bit of midtones.
Really bad sound quality.
Any monkeying with the EQ doesnt seem to help. If I take my same empeg, and put it in his Jetta, it sounds great. And thats with the EQ's at a flat setting. In my car with a flat setting the quality is verging on unacceptable.
I'm wondering if the 1995 vintage volkswagens maybe had some kind of filter, or something weird in the wiring for the stock sound system that I should bypass. (we recycled some of the speaker wire runs)
In both installs we used the same exact wiring technique. Heres the info on that.
So I'm at a total loss.

We spent about an hour last night going back and forth between the two cars, comparing different settings, and the verdict was that for some reason my car sounds like total shite.
I've searched around the web for potential solutions but came up with nothing.
We've checked and double checked the polarity of our hookups and our amp gain settings are identical.
If I set the fader all the way to the front, I get zero bass.
When I set the fader all the way to the rear, I get a little bass but still not what I was getting with the stock system. And I think thats mostly because their just bassier speakers by nature. (and the rear speakers are the only ones in the system that are direct wired to the amp). Again mostly highs.
Could it be something with the amp? Too much voltage, not enough voltage? Does that have nothing whatsoever to do with this, and I'm only exposing my ignorance.

Anybody else have any other ideas of something to look for, or something from their own install?
If youre still with me, congratulations and thanks for listening.

Z~

Well for starters, I'd disconnet the speaker wires from amp. and get a multimeter and ohm them. There should be from 3-6 ohms per speaker, varies abit on what type you got. If this is not the case, you might have an amp. built into you car like
I had.

Also, be sure to check that you have wired the + terminals from the amp. to the + terminal on the speakers, and that they are all wired the same.

These are my first two guesses.

TommyE

I installed mine in a '98 Jetta, using the same wiring method. I get acceptable bass. When my wife's in the car with me, she keeps the volume rather low, and I have a hard time hearing the low end (which is really no surprise, as I think I'm a bit deaf in that range anyway). However, at what I would deem "acceptable" volume levels (about midway in the volume range on the head unit), there's plenty of bass. So much so that on some songs I feel the urge to turn it down, as my amp can dish out more than my speakers can take, and I don't want to blow them.

And this is with my rear desk speakers not sealing the deck holes, which would actually decrease my bass somewhat.

Is it possible your amp has a built-in crossover and you've just got it set wrong (i.e., filtering out the low end)?

Sounds like an out of phase speaker somewhere.

Calvin

Im about 98% sure that the polarity's on the speakers are correct. But I suppose double checking couldnt hurt.

I'm think my next plan of action is to abandon the stock wire runs from the head unit to the amp that I recycled, and run all new wires. That way I'll know theres nothing between them messing up the signal.
Fortunately its a small car and the wire runs are fairly accessible.
Guess its gonna be another bloody knuckle weekend.

Z~

I'm think my next plan of action is to abandon the stock wire runs from the head unit to the amp that I recycled, and run all new wires

Pull the amp out of the car, take it to your friendly stereo shop (or, connect it to your friend's car) and test the hell out of it; or borrow your friend's amp and test it in your car. If I had to guess, I would say you have an amplifier problem. Don't assume that the amp is working properly.

tanstaafl.

Sounds like an out of phase speaker somewhere.

That's a good point. When I first got my Accord, I had wired one of the rear deck speakers out of phase, and was surprised how awful the bass sounded. It wasn't subtle, it was very obvious.

I discovered the polarity problem almost immediately because I shifted the balance left and right, and noticed that the bass sounded fine when the balance was to one side or the other, but awful when it was centered. That was the give-away for me, and it took me only a minute to find and correct the backwards wires.

I don't want to come off like a prick, but I will. Why in the world are you installing it in a VW Golf, Jetta or whatever. When you see a VW you are looking for a hot chick driving it, period. So unless you are a hot chick...what the hell are you thinking????

Although I will agree that there are certain cars that appeal more to women than men, I don't think the Jetta and Golf are in that category. I happily drove a Golf GTI 16v for ten years and never felt un-masculine.

Now, when a car comes standard with a flower bud vase for the dashboard, I'd consider that a clear sign of the vehicle's target market...

Immediately after reading this, I said to myself "oh no, let him say whatever he pleases".
But no.
VW Golfs are very fine cars. Specially sound-wise. Stock speaker openings in the doors are fine. With some work you reach a very fine soundtsage.
If your kind of car is one of those american cars with poorly-designed interiors, bad (or none) sound insulation, then it's your choice. But you have no right to call VWs the way you did.

Right, everybody knows that Real Men (TM) drive, err, vehicles that look as if purchased on a surplus open-pit mining equipment sale

vehicles that look as if purchased on a surplus open-pit mining equipment sale

Open-pit mining equipment is pretty durable!

Hey, in my own defense the Golf was my girlfriends idea. (And she is a hot chick so bite me).
When we moved to "The Big City" I got rid of my truck (purchased at a surplus open-pit mining sale) cause we only really needed one car.
The Golf kicks ass.
Its a GTI mildly hotted up by yours truly. It gets about 30 MPG, and I swear you can park that sucker just about anywhere.
Throw a Thule rack on top and your perfectly capable of carrying multiple sheets of plywood/sheetrock/lattice, 3 mountain bikes, skis, furniture etc. Its almost as useful as my truck was.
The thing is unstoppable.
I put on a set of blizzaks mounted on industrial black steel rims, and I can drive through 6 inches of snow at up to 70 mph.
(My buddy who has the Jetta can attest to that.)
So call it a chick car, or whatever. I dont care.
When you see me in traffic, come on over and tell me I must be a girl for driving a golf. All 6' 2", 225 pounds of me will assure you otherwise.
I now consider the subject closed, because not only is this decidedly off topic its really childish.

Z~

P.S. my dad can beat up your dad

Agreed .. the Turbo is no match for Scoobies and the like, but its plenty quick enough.

I can name plenty of girls cars but the Golf ain't one of them ...

- BMW Z3
- Mazda MX5
- Anything by Fiat ....

And I'm 6ft 2, 290lbs (on a well needed diet though !)

Waahhahaha.. yea.. reminds me of several people making fun of me for my 2000 jetta.. I think it got the Car/Driver 4th place
for chick car, and 1st place for best car for gay men.

LOL!

yea.. sure it may have a bit of euro trendy to it, but it's
such a well designed, practical car that the "manlyness" of
the car/driver "man-cars" just makes me realize how stupid
they were..
sure, you can be really manly in a dodge viper, but gas/insurance aside, it doesn't outweigh the fact that I can put a 2m long banquet table in my trunk (fold down seats) and still close the lid all the way.



also, when I was looking at new cars... the jetta (1999->) has the BEST sound layout i've seen in a car.. identical 6" speakers in the front/rear doors, and 1" tweeter mounts exactly where they need to be in the corner of the doors.

factory included separate amplifier (i ditched for an xtant) make it great for someone like my gf who has a 2001 jetta.

euro designs tend to be fairly gender neutral.. except when you take into account the excessive male ego of americans.

yea.. I may have to do this in my 2000 Jetta one of these days.. I think there is something in-line with my rear speakers that makes them fairly quiet compared to the front speakers.. but at the time I was putting the system in, I didn't want to chance making my doors vibrate by opening them up and not getting them cliped back in perfectly.

I can name plenty of girls cars but the Golf ain't one of them ...

- BMW Z3
- Mazda MX5
- Anything by Fiat ....

Be carefull bashing Miata around here, empeg was conceived in one And Fiat makes decent trucks (I mean real trucks), under brand name Iveco, definitelly macho things...

And I'm 6ft 2, 290lbs (on a well needed diet though !)

Phew, so I am not the only one (I beat you by ten or twenty pounds, though, and am still contemplating a diet only in principle)! Call them girly cars or not, but I wouldn't junk a Z3 or Miata (nor Boxter, Merc SLK, one of those newish British toys...) if they somehow fall into my hands (and if I could fit into them ) Actually, I like Z3's retro styling elements (something of its profile reminds me of Triumph Spitfire).

I tend to concur with cartalk.com -- their verdict is *every* VW car is a chick car. Sorry Tony.

Calvin

If you've ever been in a VW GTI that's had any aftermarket engine work done to it (hell, even if it hasn't), you'd more than likely change your tune on that. Those suckers fly.

Loren,

What does performance have to do with chick cars? If a car, regardless of performance or any other criteria, is owned and driven by disproportionately large numbers of women, then it is a CHICK CAR.

Whether it goes 200 miles an hour, or can turn circles on a dime and requires a parachute to stop does not matter. :-)

I'm in no way disparaging chicks or volkswagens. VW's are also named as the top Gay cars. Subarus are named the top Lesbian cars. Which in no way disparages the car or the type of person. It's only to say that it is not as likely to find two lesbians in birkenstocks running the quarter mile in a viper.

For what its worth I like VW's, and I have a feeling I'm driving a chick car myself.

:-D

Calvin

Hmm. When I bought the GTI in 1988, they weren't chick cars. Although I think you could be right about their recent models, I don't think that was the case in '88.

Yep. They were not chick cars back then, they were male pocket rockets. I used to own an 1984 GTI.

Calvin

Yep if I see a Jetta or VW Ill catch up to it and its usually a hot ass chick or a gay looking guy. They just dont have aggressive styling. I like my Integra its nice and manly given to look agressive you need to lower it. But still I love taching her up to 8 grand there is nothing femine about that.

So, does that mean that this is going to be a chick car too?

//matt

Yes, and the best kind of chick, too: The RICH kind.

Isn't that why Volkswagen has the Audi label? Hence, the Bug on the VW label and the TT on the Audi label? If you look at any VW chick car you'll find a matching car in the Audi label. ;-) VW said they will produce the W12, but didn't say what brand it will be. ;-)

Calvin

Do let us know if you find the problem!

I suppose you know, that even if the wires are all hooked + to +, and - to -, there still might be one out of phase. You might try just taking one speaker and swapping the wires to verify that.

One more possible item - check how the speaker is mounted. It should be on a very firm piece of metal. Also, make sure that it is sealed to some extent, so that the wavw out the back doesn't leak out and cancel the wave out of the front. As an example, you know how bad a raw driver sounds sitting in your hand? There may be a little of that at play too.

Let us know what you find out.

Agreed .. the Turbo is no match for Scoobies and the like, but its plenty quick enough.

I can name plenty of girls cars but the Golf ain't one of them ...

- BMW Z3
- Mazda MX5
- Anything by Fiat ....

Obviously haven't driven a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo then...
Ray

Rio 20Gb soon to be installed in Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo

VW said they will produce the W12, but didn't say what brand it will be. ;-)

It will indeed have a VW emblem on the front. Theyre trying to elevate the brand image.

What does performance have to do with chick cars? If a car, regardless of performance or any other criteria, is owned and driven by disproportionately large numbers of women, then it is a CHICK CAR.

Whether it goes 200 miles an hour, or can turn circles on a dime and requires a parachute to stop does not matter. :-)

I'm in no way disparaging chicks <http://empeg.comms.net/images/icons/wink.gif> or volkswagens. VW's are also named as the top Gay cars.

official useless statistics from the VW sourcebook:

Golf - 50% of buyers are male

GTI - 84% of buyers are male

Jetta - 41% of buyers are male

Beetle - 32% of buyers are male

Passat - 59% of buyers are male

Cabrio - 18% of buyers are male - a higher percentage of female buyers than any other car on the US market

i KNEW i was right about the GTI! haha. Thanks for that awesome stat list.

By extension then, the Integra is the preferred vehicle for adolescents who aren't secure in their gender and/or sexuality.

Really, this has gone beyond juvenile...it's gotten offensive. I drive a Jetta. I'm also 6'1", 260lbs, and in a long-term monogamous relationship with a member of the opposite sex. I lift weights. I also happen to enjoy musicals, gourmet food, fine art, and audio entertainment that goes beyond the need to include an expletive or depiction of violence every other bar. Does that make me "gay"? Are you going to pull up next to me in your riced-out, lowered Integra with the "R-Type" sticker on it and try to intimidate me and demonstrate your dominant, alpha-male heterosexual urge by revving your engine and yelling insults at me? Do you feel in some way intimidated by the fact that there are men who actually *like* driving the Jetta, and -- horror of horrors -- perfer women? Or do you just feel threatened by those who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex?

Grow up. Better yet, go away.

I don't want to come off like a prick, but I will. Why in the world are you installing it in a VW Golf, Jetta or whatever. When you see a VW you are looking for a hot chick driving it, period. So unless you are a hot chick...what the hell are you thinking????


Hot chicks in VWs dig a man in a golf or a jetta.

By extension then, the Integra is the preferred vehicle for adolescents who aren't secure in their gender and/or sexuality.

Really, this has gone beyond juvenile...it's gotten offensive. I drive a Jetta. I'm also 6'1", 260lbs, and in a long-term monogamous relationship with a member of the opposite sex. I lift weights. I also happen to enjoy musicals, gourmet food, fine art, and audio entertainment that goes beyond the need to include an expletive or depiction of violence every other bar. Does that make me "gay"? Are you going to pull up next to me in your riced-out, lowered Integra with the "R-Type" sticker on it and try to intimidate me and demonstrate your dominant, alpha-male heterosexual urge by revving your engine and yelling insults at me? Do you feel in some way intimidated by the fact that there are men who actually *like* driving the Jetta, and -- horror of horrors -- perfer women? Or do you just feel threatened by those who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex?


HA HA!
Reminds me of some idiot who this past summer pulled up along side me in his mid eighties accord hatchback with yellow racing stripes, a type R badge, and the word "newspeed" in bright yellow across the windshield. In a pathetic attempt to pick me up, offered me "one of these for two of those" pointing at my car.

And speaking of "chick" cars, I sold about 15 beetles last year. 3 to women in their mid 20's, two to gay couples, and 6 of them to some really BIG guys who no one in their right minds would pick a fight with. It's a great car for bigger people (and my 6'8" boyfriend fits in one better than he does in his eldorado)

Or maybe he's just bitter because gays make more money and are more educated than the heterosexual population.

Sigh...
This is all really great.
But the empeg in my car still sounds like crap.
See above (above, above, above, all the waaaay up) posts from moi.

This weekend I abandoned the factory speaker wiring and re-wired all the speakers from the speaker to the amp with nice heavy gauge speaker wire. (and I made sure the polarity was correct)
I re-routed the RCA cables down the passenger side cable trough to get them further away from the power wire for the amp.
And I played around with the gain settings on the amp until I was almost permanently crippled from crouching behind the front seats (The amp is mounted under the rear bench).

No luck.
I'm screwed.

My next course of action is to try a different amp. My buddy with the Jetta has a spare amp that he's waiting to mount with his spare empeg into his convertible 1968 Oldsmobile Delmonte Rocket 88.
Is that also a chick car?


Anybody out there have any other suggestions while I'm at it?

I'm thinking its the amp 'cause my empeg sounds great in his jetta, and we have basically identical sound systems.

Sure you could make an argument that the acoustics are different between the 2 models, but up until a month ago when I installed the empeg and the amp, I got plenty of bass with the stock Clarion VW head unit and cd changer and these same speakers.

Oh well...
Ill notify if anything changes.

Z~

Only other thing I could think of is switching the front and rears on the amp, and seeing if the problem follows the wiring or the ports on the amp. If it follows the ports, it's the amp at fault. If it follows the wiring, it's either the wiring, the speakers, or the acoustics to blame.

Haha I hope your not talking about me and my integra. I might add my car has no stickers on it. Its not a type-R nor do I claim it to be. It just a regular LS 1.8 liter. Last fall I finally had the money to buy a Drag Gen 3 turbo kit, and well my car is faster than most v8s, but I dont brag about it. My car is a sleeper it looks dead stock. I dont drive around trying to impress girls in it. I dont race on the streets, and I most certainly do not rev to other people, Ill admit most import owners are greasy haired teenagers who only care about what the car looks like. Im not like that Im more into peformance. I mean occasionally Ill get into a little race with a BMW or something on the freeway but Im not trying to impress a girl or anything.

Did you make sure that you have the loudness setting turned up on the empeg? I know that when I have it turned down, the 12's in my room have no bass whatsoever, but they definitely start to hit when I turn it up.

My car is a sleeper it looks dead stock.

Strictly amateur in the sleeper category.

Now this is a sleeper! (check the .jpg attached to the link)

Might be able to run with your turbocharged Acura, but probably not -- certainly not handling or braking in any case.

But it'll haul more plywood faster than your rice-toy ever thought of.

tanstaafl.

Aight, at the next empeg meet... we'll have to have an Empeg Quarter Mile! hahah.

Reminds me of some idiot who this past summer pulled up along side me in his mid eighties accord hatchback with yellow racing stripes, a type R badge, and the word "newspeed" in bright yellow across the windshield.

I'm sure he thought he was both fast and furious.

It is at this time I think it would be appropriate to re-link this old classic page.

And thanks for those VW statistics, I now feel a little better about having driven a GTI for ten years.

I mean occasionally Ill get into a little race with a BMW or something on the freeway but Im not trying to impress a girl or anything.

I've said it before and I say it again: would someone please explain to me what sense it makes to own a car that can go two or three times the posted speed limit in that country?

And how do your "races" look like? Who can go up to 80mph first? And then you have to fear that the cops are waiting for you with a radar gun on the next overpass?

I just don't get what one needs a fast car for when you can't even travel at a speed adequate for that car on public roads.

Georg

That's the beauty of America.

I just don't get what one needs a fast car for when you can't even travel at a speed adequate for that car on public roads.

Same reason someone buys a riocar/empeg.

Who can go up to 80mph first?



80? You're just not trying....

It's not a matter of whether or not you CAN, it's a matter of whether or not you are willing to risk the ticket in doing so. You certainly CAN go as fast as you want. I'm sure most of the people on this board who are speedsters are very careful about it. I've seen Tony go 100 on a California backroad that i wasn't all that anxious to go 90 on. Remember boys and girls... speed kills....

oh yeah, not to mention a lot of people use their cars at track days and other organized races.

I just don't get what one needs a fast car for when you can't even travel at a speed adequate for that car on public roads.

Because a car that can do 140mph can do 70mph with much less effort than a car that can only do 80mph. This results in a nicer drive, a safer car (because it's designed to go that fast -- brakes, etc.), and less wear on the car. It's probably also better for the environment.

Once you've got a car that can do 200mph, that's overkill for this argument, but who cares? Take it out on the track (e.g., a drive-what-you-brought day), and have fun.

The fastest I've gone is 125. And that's only because the car wouldn't go any faster.

Remember boys and girls... speed kills...


naw... That's a common Falsehood.

It's the sudden stops that get you. Speed, no problem...

I'm spoiled by living in the south. We don't (yet) have the congestion that makes it so unsafe around here. There are a couple of places here that I've bumped the speed limiter (damn it) without worrying about safety. Worrying about Cops... That's another post, but frankly, if you are driving that fast, you damn well better be worried. I get over 90, and everything starts to be real aware. Push 120 and I'm hyperintense.

Which is good, because if I'm looking THAT much for cops, I'm also looking that much for ANYTHING that might be a problem.

Pursuit courses via US Army Military Police helps.

It's the sudden stops that get you. Speed, no problem...

Heh, yeah. Like the old saying, "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the deceleration trauma".

But will women buy it? :-)

Calvin

That's great. Now you have to split those statistics by sexual orientation. :-D


Wink! Wink! Wink!

Calvin

The Beetle is a recommended car for large people. (!) Recommended by Cartalk.com, due to the cavernous interior.

Calvin

Look at Interstate 5 for example. 80 is what the *slow* cars are doing.

Calvin

Yeap, same with 280. People going 80 get passed left and right.

Juvenile? Maybe. Anti-gay? Hardly. Amusing? Yep! Take it with a grain of salt basically.

About Guy Versus Chick Cars:
http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Guy-Chick-Cars/index.html

About Gay and Lesbian Cars:
http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Gay-Lesbian/index.html

Calvin

Why bother with a 65 mph limit? They should simply do a speed survey and raise the limit to 80.

Calvin

I love this quote:

My nomination for a chick car is the Volkswagen Cabriolet. Especially the convertible.

And, apparently, there is no intelligence-based criterion for nominators, since 1) the Cabriolet doesn't come non-convertible, probably because; 2) ``cabriolet'' means convertible. Chuckle-head.

I laugh my ass off reading Cartalk reader mail.

Calvin

I was pondering this the other day, and there is this intersting phenomenon that I think exists. A guy can drive a chick car around, and won't really be noticed. But if a chick is driving a guy car around, the chick *will* be noticed and gawked at. For example, if you see a chick in a Viper or even a lowered riced out car just zipping along the highway, it would be likely to cause an accident. But if a *guy* is driving a chick car, then it's like nothing out of the ordinary is occurring.

I think this is related to the phenomenon that when a woman is out on the street wearing articles of mens clothing, that is not out of the ordinary. But if a man is wearing articles of womens clothing, then the same phenomenon occurs. What's interesting is the gender roles are reversed with cars.

My theory is, clothing and fashion is considered to be in the feminine "domain" and cars, particularly guy cars, are in the masculine "domain" -- hence, with few exceptions, a chick can wear anything pretty much, and a guy can drive anything pretty much.

Comments?
Calvin

Im sorry but that SHO would have its ass handed to it by me on the track.

Huh?

Calvin

Aquasqurrel just challenged Doug Burnside to the quarter mile, I think.

The question is, will he drive to Alaska to do the actual competition?

Are they going to do the quarter mile on a glacier???

Calvin

actually I wasnt referring to a quartermile but Id still probably beat him. Im refering to a road course. And Im sorry the an SHOs handling and braking cannot touch that of a Type-R

And Im sorry the an SHOs handling and braking cannot touch that of a Type-R

If you think your Type R can dust a SHO, imagine how badly it will dust my wagon with the extra 150 pounds, longer wheelbase, etc. No contest there. But unless you have the boost on your turbo cranked up to short-engine-life levels, I think you would be astonished at how hard you would have to work to get away from me on anything other than an all-out race on a tight track.

What I have is a true sleeper. Nobody would ever look at a Taurus station wagon and think it was fast.

tanstaafl.

Im running a light 7 pounds of boost right now and well I pulled a 12.7sec 1/4. yes turbo might shorten the life span of my engine but itll still last longer than anything coming from detroit

but itll still last longer than anything coming from detroit

Oh, like one of those Deetroit Ya-Ma-Has?

I dunno, Doug, I don't think you'll ever see this boy in Alaska for the showdown. Sounds like a case of all valves and no pistons, if you...get...my...drift.

Yeah I know I know the SHO engine is a Yahama engine and to be quite honest I find it humerous that an american car company went with a Japanese engine for their perfomance car. Ask me any question about a car and ill answer I bought the type-R because it truely is a engineering masterpiece

Im running a light 7 pounds of boost right now and well I pulled a 12.7sec 1/4.

7 pounds isn't exactly light!

If you can turn 12.7 quarter miles, then you're way out of my league. Tell you what, though -- I'll bet I can get to the hardware store and back with a load of lumber faster than you can!

but itll still last longer than anything coming from detroit

I think not. It is quite common for, say, a Chevy small-block V-8 to go 150,000, 200,000 miles without major problems. And the SHO V-6 in my wagon is usually considered to be good for 200,000 miles. Of course, that is a Yamaha-designed and built engine...

tanstaafl.

Ask me any question about a car and ill answer

Okay... Let's say you have a 3.8 liter in-line 6-cylinder engine whose bore and stroke are the same. What would the bore and stroke measurements (in either inches or millimeters, your choice) actually be? And what would be the general effect on performance if the ratio of bore to stroke were changed?

Yeah, I know, I'm a smart-ass. But let's see if you have the math and the knowledge to work it out? (Oh, yes, and show your work, please) I mean, you're the one who issued the challenge! Ask me any question...

tanstaafl.

I have no doubt that the Type-R is an absolute engineering masterpiece and is the only car that any thoughtful person would ever choose to drive.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm just teasing you on behalf of all the "hot ass chick and gay looking guys" out there. I know you won't drive to Alaska. Gas prices haven't dropped *that* much.

If I were a better man I *wouldn't* tease you. But I'm not a better man.

Hmmm.. Getting confused here?

In reply to:

---

Haha I hope your not talking about me and my integra. I might add my car has no stickers on it. Its not a type-R nor do I claim it to be. It just a regular LS 1.8 liter. Last fall I finally had the money to buy a Drag Gen 3 turbo kit, and well my car is faster than most v8s, but I dont brag about it.

---

And now...

In reply to:

---

Ask me any question about a car and ill answer I bought the type-R because it truely is a engineering masterpiece

---

So, I'll ask you a question about a car. Namely, yours. You have a LS, don't claim it to be a Type-R, but have a Turbo running 7 Lbs.

Now, you have a Type-R.

Make up your mind.

Uhoh. Looks like aqua has talked himself into a corner.

The engine is an LS engine not.........I blew the R engine that came with the car when I was running 15 pounds of boost I know it was stupid but oh well. I couldnt afford another Type-R engine at the time since the cost about 5 grand. So since it doesnt have what makes a type-R a type-R the engine I dont call it one.

12.7 quarter mile with 1.8 liter on turbo? Are you sure that's not the 1/8 mile? Have you ever actually run it at the strip? I'll have to see that to believe it. Dodge Vipers run around 12.5. Are you saying you can hang with a V-10 Viper in that little 4-banger?

fusto, did you try checking the loudness setting?

My VW Golf GTi Turbo was a top car for the twisty stuff round here. I only traded it in 'cos I found I could afford an Impreza after a change of jobs:)
Not staggeringly feminine, I have to say.

Well, if you were born in a small island community where some families own their own islands racing becomes a pretty safe (from intruding police types) game.
Okay, you do occasionally have to use non standard exit routes from the car if you roll too much, but hey, you learn how NOT to do it again

Oh, and over here standard commute speed is 85mph anyway (is that the same in the US?). Motorway racing is a bit tricky, as you'll get banned if caught over 100, so the only really fun stuff is the twisty bits in the highlands, borders, dales and Wales, as you can stay under the speed limit and still push things.
Although on my latest run up to John'O'Groats I was sitting at a fun speed (with still a wee margin for error as it was snowing) and a CityLink coach shot past me like I was sitting still.

Erm...frightening!

On the same topic this page demonstrates a wonderful little VW sleeper. Twin engines, max speed of 193mph for hillclimbs.

Heh heh - yup it is silly!

Oh, and over here standard commute speed is 85mph anyway (is that the same in the US?). Motorway racing is a bit tricky, as you'll get banned if caught over 100, so the only really fun stuff is the twisty bits in the highlands, borders, dales and Wales, as you can stay under the speed limit and still push things.

Point taken.

I see now where the excitement comes from. Always having that cold sweat feeling in the back of your neck that you might get caught by the police (or not).

Boy, how boring it is - compared to you guys - to zoom along on the German autobahn at 240 clicks an hour (~150mph) and it being perfectly legal.

Georg

Oh, and over here standard commute speed is 85mph anyway (is that the same in the US?).

Nah, they drive really slowly over there. In fact you can't really call it driving - cruise controlled along an interstate a mile wide at 65MPH if you're lucky. The only sport is in avoiding the potholes.

I got accused of being a fast driver last time I was over there, by certain members of this BBS! That's patently untrue!

Rob

I always try to take backroads instead of the highways so that I'm actually doing something while driving long distances. It usually increases the actual time, but it makes it feel much shorter. Plus there's things to look at along the way besides a million other cars and a narrow strip of trees on either side of the interstate. But, then again, my wife claims she gets carsick on those windy roads, so I don't usually get to actually do this.

> In fact you can't really call it driving - cruise controlled along an interstate a mile wide at 65MPH if you're lucky.

And that only happened in the last 10 years. It used to be you couldn't drive faster than 55mph in the entire country.

Of course, on L.A. freeways I often don't get above 20.

sure it's possible.. you have to remember, if you consider an integra has a curb weight of 1100kg, and a viper is somewhere around 1500kg.. that's 1/4 less weight.. 400kg, or 900 or so pounds.. you also have to consider the rotating mass of a 10cyl engine, it takes a lot more time and energy to get that from 1k to 5k RPM. (remember that the v10 cant' spin out past 6k RPM)

I used to be able to top 160mph on the roads between Cambridge & St Albans, where my (then) gf lived - only for a short bit, though, but even that part isn't a straight. What's the point of a NSX if you don't use it sometimes?

(disclaimer: very late at night, no traffic, etc)

Just revenge for the 4 speed cameras they have along other bits of the route... most of the time I'm going less than 60

Hugo

4-bangers w. turbo beat Vipers at the track all the time. Esp. all-wheel drive ones like the Mitsu Eclipse..... The difference, is that after that 1/4 mile, the Vipers start to pull away. But only so much trackion is available on a Viper.

That's too easy. I do think you're being a little tricky by stating in-line 6 cyl engine though.

Calvin

Don't be silly. 4 cylinder engines have broken into the 7s already (albeit in heavily modified form). Not only can 4 cylinder engines hang with V-10 vipers, they can beat them hands down.

Around here, it's rather common to take a $5000 4 cylinder car, put $3000 worth of *light* modifications on it, and run low 12s all day long. At the strip. I don't know anything about Hondas, but DSMs are breaking into the low 8s in streetable form. http://www.heckconsulting.com/dsm/drag.html. Buschur's car runs a 5 second 1/8th mile, 8 second quarter with a top speed of 172 mph. If he raced a viper from a standstill, the viper would be a dot in his rear view mirror for a long, long time, well after the quarter mile even.

Calvin

There are only a few places on the major highways here in Colorado that the speed limit is 65 or lower. The cities are usually set to 55, or the outer edges 65. (This is just due to all the traffic entering a small highway). Between cities, it's 75, except on certain parts of I-70, due to the very windy mountain road.

California is one of the worst places to judge the roads in the US.

You can get anything to run 12's if you put enough money into it. I think he said his was stock except for the turbo. And it may very well run 12's. The fastest street 4cyl I have ever seen personally was maybe good for a 15. I know they have them at the strip running on NOS with a blower, all-wheel drive, varible valve timing or whatever, but why spend all that money on NOS or a blower on a 4cyl when you could put it on a V8? I guess like how some people just don't 'get' the empeg, I don't 'get' why you would want to race or soup-up a high-rev import 4cyl. I prefer the raw low-end power of a v8.

I used to top 160MPH (indicated) every day when I was commuting back and forth between Hatfield/Welwyn Garden & Hitchin up the A1(M) on my Yam (FZR1000 Genesis). Usually though I'd use the B656 between Welwyn Village & Hitchin - much more fun, nice & twisty. I did manage 150MPH a few times along here but I had a few scary moments when I'd come across a Deer or Pheasant crossing the road . Another road I like is Coopers Green Lane between Welwyn Garden & St Albans. I used to get about 145 in a couple of places along there. Unfortunately I sold the bike about six months ago to a guy at work who's got a permanent grin from ear-to-ear now.

We aren't talking THAT much money (despite all those stupid lines from theFast andthe Furious). Sure, it takes a ton of cash to make a Civic fast, but the DSM Eclipses already have turbo. A simple boost-controller and minor intake and/or exhaust mods make that car INSANE! The engine may not last that long with the abuse, but the DSM's are very "mod" friendly.

Ok let me clarify I ran 12.7@118. My car was dynoed at 265 hp to the wheels. I was running slicks with 19 pounds of pressure and I stripped out the back seat passenger seat, and spare tire. So the weight of the car plus me plus the quarter tank of gas was probably about 2600. And I did cheat and I ran 10 pounds of boost at the track, you woulda thought after the first engine I would have learned. I mean sure I can probably keep up with a stock Viper, but once any v8 starts doing serious mods Im left in the dust Ill admit, I mean there is only so much you can do with 1.8 liters.

This is going way off topic, so this will be pretty much my last post on this. There is not a single person that I know that runs NOS. DSMs can run into the 14s with free mods (modifying bcs, solenoids, etc). With about $500 you can bring that into the mid 13s. With about $750 more you can bring it into the high 12s. With about $1500 more you can bring it into the low 12s. That's a 3400 pound car. None of these modifications involve NOS. On race gas DSMs are known to run 25 pounds of boost without issue.

You can buy a DSM for $4000.

Nobody is talking about throwing a lot of money into a car. But for about $7000 you can have a car that hangs with the Vipers and Ferraris. How much *DOES* a Viper cost? While it is true you can get into 12s with enough money, the better question is how much *additional* horsepower can you get at what price. How much money does it take to add another 100 horsepower to a Viper? How about the next 100 horsepower? If Henessey is any indication, hopping up V8s is a rich man's game.

Anyway, you may prefer the "raw low end" versus a turbocharged high end, but in all honesty, in a real race with real drivers, the outcome is decided in the first 60 feet. An Eclipse GSX would be halfway down the track and in "raw high end" territory and finishing the race, while your pumped up V8 is still at the starting line spinning its tires in a raw show of what?

And don't forget, in autocross racing, they often start the race on an L-bend which means a v8 doesn't really buy you as much as you think.

I think in the end, it's not about money, it's not about torque, or even the number of cylinders. I suspect you would be just as biased against a Japanese V8. The facts bear out that for very little money, you can be ridiculously fast. If you have to puzzle over why anyone would race an import 4 cylinder, then you've probably never, ever sat in one that broke into the 11s. What it feels like is sheer terror as you're crushed back into your seat, with the speedometer needle moving as fast as a rpm needle in an ordinary car. It never lets up.

Calvin

as I said in a previous post, it's not just about how much displacement is in the engine, it's also about the weight of the car, both dead, and moving..

a cousin of mine has a Audi S4 dual turbo, which has not quiet as much hp, or top-end speed as his previous car, a camero SS (i belive, it was the high-end model) The S4 is off the line faster, and doesn't "steer like a cow" (he also mentioned it can actualy stop faster too, allways a good thing)

tho I will admit that the S4 is a V6.. not quiet as heavy as the V8, but not as cool as the little 1.8L turbo in the standard A4

Cool in temperature?

Calvin

So, where's the answer to tanstaafl?

Well since CV=(bore)(stroke)^2(pi/4)
The bore and stroke would both be about 9.31 cm.
If you increase the stroke making the engine oversquare you loss revabilty do to increased sideloading but you do gain torque.
If you decrease the stroke you gain revabilty but loss displacement unless you bore out to the cylinder.
In the world of Honda B-series engines the best engine for revability is the b16A which can be found in the Civic Si this engine is undersquare and can easily with a proper valvetrain rev past 10,000 rpms. The other B-series engines that I'll discuss are the b18B1, b18c1 and b18c5 found in the LS , GSR, and type-R respectively(both b18c engines have the same geometry so ill treat them as one). The b18b1 has the worst rod ratio of the bunch (on a side not this engine is not VTEC and alot of kids think by putting a VTEC head on this block you can rev to 8000 rpms like in the GSR, well this is not the case due to the poor rod ratio [the LS engine has a lower CR therefore it likes turbo hince]) it has a bit more displacement than the b18c engines at 1834 cc instead of 1797cc. The stroke of the b18b engine is 89mm and the bore is 81mm thus making the engine oversquare as stated before. The b18c engines have a stroke of 87.2mm and a bore of 81mm making this less oversquare making them more revable......along with alot of F1 technology.

I have a question for you. What is the benefit of valve overlap at high rpms and what is the benefit of a stepped exhaust manifold and why? These question are related feel free to discuss flow velocity versus flow volume in your discussion.
Cheers

It's frightening when engineering types get into a pissing contest.

Slide rules at ten paces... Ready, aim, calculate!

This becomes fun. Move over to OT and continue...

Holy crap... my engine will go to 10,000RPM?! That's nuts. Ya learn something new every day. It still freaks me out when i rev it to 7,000!

Move over to OT and continue...

Agreed. Locking thread, too far off topic.

This is fun, so please do continue in the off-topic forum.