Dog Training

Throughout my life, I've always had dogs, but not once the problem that our new Boxer(2 1/2 male rescued from maltreatment) is giving us.

An unhealthy interest in sheep, I know damn well that if he got out, or off his lead, he would head straight for a field of sheep. We live in the country, near to many fields of sheep, it's a serious concern.

Anybody know how you train it out of them?

You can try avoidance training with a shock collar but who knows if it will work. In the parts of the US, hunters use avoidance training on dogs for rattlesnakes and it works to a great degree (snake proofing). I've never heard of it being used for sheep.

Loose dogs in the southwest US who are in sheep country usually don't survive too long. If the ranchers or drivers don't kill them, the predators (usually coyotes but occasionally mountain lions) will.

Best thing is to let him get nearer and nearer to sheep over time. Get him used to being around them, but keep him on a tight leash. Obviously you can't just go into a field and do this, but i'm sure it is possible.

I don't know whether you've heard of her before but Jan Fennell wrote a good book on dog behaviour.
Channel4 ran a series of 1/2 hour programs a few years ago called the Dog Listener. In these, Jan Fennell would visit the homes of dogs with problems and intuitively recognise the source of the problem in terms of pack behaviour and help the owners correct the bad behaviour. The program is somewhat irrevelant I know, but I thought I would mention it in case you'd seen it.

Her methods are based upon those employed by Monty Don the Horse Whisperer and what impressed me the most is that they are completely non-violent and she demonstrably got results. Also, she doesn't advocate castration as a matter of course (but I would guess your rescue dog has already been 'done' though).

We bought her books in the hope of understanding and correcting some unwieldy behaviour in one of our Weimaraners (AKA loveable nut cases). Although the books didn't help us address the specific problems with our dog they were still a worthwhile read and they have broadened our understanding of canine behaviour in general which can't be a bad thing. I think we really need(ed) the in-home consultation they offer.
We haven't entirely ruled out a home visit but our problems don't yet justify the expense which is something like £250 + £0.35/mile each way.

Edit: Incidentally, you are more than welcome to borrow the Jan Fennell books if that helps at all.

I'm reading a book at the moment, "The other end of the leash", by Patricia McConnel who has a PhD in animal behaviour. While I haven't read anything about training dogs out of hearding habits there maybe something in her collection which may help. Try her site: www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com

Thanks for that, I missed the series, and I had forgotten her name, and of course, she's here in Yorkshire. I'm off to borders after this e-mail to find the book: If not, I'll be back for your kind offer.

One of my problems is that these farmers are all people I drink with, and this is the take they have on it:

Once he's tasted blood (which as far as I know, he hasn't) you can't do anything, you'll have to have him put down.

Stick him in a pen with four rams, he'll never look at another sheep in his life.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, it's even out in paperback - I'll get stuck into it this weekend.

Monty Don

I knew this was wrong, but it only just cane to me, The Horse Whisperer is Monty Roberts and the guy above is a TV presenter who irritates the hell out of me and Mrs.Boxer!

Once he's tasted blood (which as far as I know, he hasn't) you can't do anything, you'll have to have him put down.

Seems a bit hard core. I'm sure Boxer Rescue could find a new home in an urban area (not too many sheep to worry there). It's wierd to hear of a boxer that would attack a sheep anyway - they're all over playful and curious as hell but they don't tend to actually bite things.

Rob

the important thing is how much control you have over the dog. If you can teach the dog that anything you do is fun and rewarding, then you have a better chance of control. Teach your dog that playing games with you is fun and the commands for stop and come. when he goes to chase the sheep, you should be able to make him stop, you then call him and run away and divert his interest to playing with you.
Do you know that he's going to attach the sheep or just wants to round them up? Maybe if he just wants to round up then keeping him on a leash next to them will quiet his desire. Maybe, with the farmer's permission, a small amount of rounding up would be great exercise for him.
I don't think you'll be able to train this desire out of him, but you can either distract him or let him have a go at the rounding up.
How about a muzzle when he's out?

I know there's a joke about New Zealand in here somewhere...

How about a muzzle when he's out?

I don't think that would help. Unless the laws have changed, farmers have the right to shoot dogs on sight if they are worrying (but not necessarily biting) cattle or sheep. This isn't helped by the fact it's lambing season over here right now either.

From my boxer experience, training it out of him is going to be near impossible. Though, as he gets older, he'll probably become a bit more subdued. We had a boxer who would get out to run around the neighborhood and was nearly impossible to catch. She waited untill we finished building the 6 foot tall fence to show us that she could jump right over it.

What saved her life was the invisible (read: electric) fence. She wore a collar which beeped if she came within five or ten feet of the fence, and if she didn't move back gave a little shock. Nothing inhumane (we tested it on ourselves before putting it on her) but enough to make a point. With a little training, she never left the yard, and it was compleetly safe to let her off the leash in the front yard. When we did it the fence cost $800 plus installation and was worth every penny. Prices have come down substantially in the last ten years however.

Matthew

Electric fences really depend on the dog. We tried various things with our beagles over the years to keep them out of certain parts of the house. The two dogs, Bailey (oversized butch smart lazy dog from show stock) and Bonnie (small timid stupid loving dog from hunting stock) didn't react very well to the first things we tried.

We first tried electric mats in the doorways. Bonnie was too stupid to understand the connection between being shocked and the location. She would sometimes sit on it and cry. Other times she would hide in the corner all day. The other dog, Bailey, figured out that she could get through it with only a mild shock if she took a running jump. This was humourous one day when she proceded to slide across the hardwood floor into a wall 20 feet away, knocking over her waterbowl in the process. She looked very embarassed and quickly licked up all the water.

Next, we tried collars that would warn and then shock. Again, Bonnie didn't understand what was going on, so she would sometimes stand there and get zapped repeatedly while crying. Bailey still figured out that she could run right through with only a mild shock. Unfortunately, everytime we had a lightning storm, they would get shocked repeatedly.

Neither of those systems made us feel very good about ourselves, nor were they very effective. Finally, we set up a system that would make a loud ultrasonic sound whenever the dogs passed through the wrong doorways. They quickly figured out where they could and could not go, even Bonnie. It has seemed to work pretty well so long as the batteries are fresh (they still test it or forget every few weeks). Still, lightning storms can sometimes set them off, but much more rarely than with the old system.

-Biscuits

... to keep them out of certain parts of the house

LOL, if only! I must remember NEVER to say on here where our two dogs sleep

Bailey still figured out that she could run right through with only a mild shock.

If the pain goes away by "keeping going", that's not surprising. It is not to say that they are effective in all situations, but the newer electric fences are a little subtler -- they use a 2-step approach. As the dog approaches the boundary, first a beeper on the collar goes off and, if the dog goes closer, *then* a shock is delivered. After a while, the idea is that the dog will form an association and will turn back when the beep sounds. More effective, supposedly (makes sense to me) and less nasty over the long haul.

A friend of mine is a long-time search dog and general purpose dog trainer. He gets good results, but is not doctrinaire. It's his sense that there is still a fair amount of controversy and misinformation out there. He's big on canine pack role behavior (owner must be top dog) positive reinforcement and follow-through -- don't tell a dog to do something that you aren't ready to back up. Beyond that, he'll pick and choose to find what works. He has a "runner" now who has earned some shock collar time. I gather with the shock fences, as with many things, one main contributor to failure is that owners don't devote enough up-front time with their dogs to help embed the dog's associations.

All that being said, the thought of a poor dog standing dumbstruck getting repeatedly shocked would be too much for me to bear.

you don' let them sleep on your bed do you? at least not while you're sleeping there!

I would hope so, isn't that where dogs belong? At my house it's cats on the bed though.

Well, our electric collars did beep. Bailey figured out that it gave her an extra 3 seconds or so to get through the door. Bonnie never could figure out the connections between the beep, the shock, or the door. They are opposite ends of the spectrum as far as intellegence goes.

-Biscuits

Well, our electric collars did beep. Bailey figured out that it gave her an extra 3 seconds or so to get through the door.

Oh, well. There goes my degree in canine psychology! Well, my friend's "runner" dog? My friend usually winds up having his way, but that dog *really* wants to run. Not sure what the chances are the collar will work...

Someday I will have a dog.

does that mean that dogs sleep anywhere else?

Dogs, children with fur coats

Anybody know how you train it out of them?

I posed this question to the "Dog Lady" in my office. Wendy is very serious about her dogs, teaches classes at the local dog obedience school, owns some award-winning show dogs and her dogs dominate at field trials all across the state. Chuck Yeager (of "Right Stuff" fame) came to Alaska on a hunting trip and one of Wendy's dogs performed so well that he offered her a staggering sum of money for the dog. Not for sale!

Here is what Wendy had to say...

To begin with, chances are high that the Boxer just wants to herd the nice, fluffy, funny looking dogs. While the "corral with 4 rams" idea does bear merit... I would suggest training with an electronic collar. The price of these range from $100 to $600. Before using this collar, you should read the TRITRONICS book regarding the use of electronic collars. I can't remember the exact title, but I'm sure it's available at amazon.com, via a search for Tritronics/electronic collar conditioning.

Electronic collar training works on the premise of teaching the dog how to TURN THE COLLAR OFF! It takes several weeks of training. You start by determining the dog's stimulation level. Most collars offer at least 5 levels. The correct level is identified when the dog gives a slight shiver when the collar is activated. If the dog vocalizes, the collar is turned up too high! After you find the correct level for Mr. Boxer, call him, and continue activating the collar until the dog returns to you. Immediately release the stimulation button and reward him with a treat or a toy for coming to you. This conditions the dog to immediately return to the "safe zone" (by your side) whenever he gets a zap!

Or you could get him his own sheep and let him go crazy....

Wendy Garwood
Senior Account Manager
Clear Channel Radio

I hope this is helpful.

tanstaafl.

My 2 best friends...

http://empeg.comms.net/files/137228-fools.jpg

Cute pup, what kind is it?

Spoiled Mutt, 13 years old and loved for 12.5 of those years.
Looks to have Rottweiller colour with weiner dog size and length (not quite as long) and very erect, large ears. Very lovable!

nice bed.

Seems a bit hard core

Quite right, I should have put the two things in quotes, to make it absolutely clear that they did not reflect my own opinions - but those of dour Yorkshire farmers, who perhaps don't have our sensitivities. Jasper came from Boxer rescue to whom we subscribe each year and my business does all the promotion work for the local RSPCA, so I wouldn't go having dogs put down in any circumstance.

Thanks everybody, whilst I'm posting, for the time spent and the wealth of well thought out suggestions. We're going the Dog Listener route first, because she's Yorkshire based and if we can't sort it ourselves, we can call her in for a consultation.