Toying with buying myself a new car...

(a topic bound to generate plenty of discussion here, if ever...)

Many of you have read me kvetching about all the problems my BMW Z3 Coupe has had over the years. The warranty expires in February '04, giving me an incentive to replace that bastard car before I have to start paying for its design inadequacies and continuing mechanical failures, never mind putting up with the astonishingly rude service departments.

The criteria for my next car (in no particular order):

- zoom, zoom (0-60 times under 6 seconds, traction control, strong brakes)
- back seats (optional, but could be useful)
- vaguely useful storage space (kills the Porsche Boxster or Honda S2000)
- half-way decent reliability (kills most American & European cars)
- ability to install my empeg without too much hassle
- manual transmission ('nuff said)

At this point, the major contenders, also in no particular order, are:

- Mazda RX-8 (clever back seats, under-powered, stereo integration nightmare)
- Infiniti G35 Coupe (big engine, kludgy ergonomics, maybe possible to hack empeg in as if it were a satellite radio receiver)
- Mitsubishi Lancer Evo (serious zoom, unfortunate rice-boy styling)
- Subaru WRX STi (same pluses/minuses as Lancer Evo except possibly better reliability based on Consumer Reports numbers)
- Lexus IS-300 (slowest of the pack, but has the nicest interior trim and possibly the highest reliability; the manual transmission doesn't come with the fancier traction control and there are some reliability concerns about that, if you go read the IS-300 chat board)


Other possibilities, that I don't know as much about, but might still be worth considering:

- Acura TSX (based on the smaller European/Asian-market Accord, meant to compete with the BMW 3-series, as in the Lexus IS-300. The one that I saw at an auto show had this useless integrated video screen for doing everything, which makes a third-party stereo much harder to install)
- Pontiac Grand Prix (Australian built w/ Corvette guts, interior that seem order-of-magnitude better than typical GM products)



My current thought is that I need to be able to test drive everything on this list before making a decision, which should be possible before the end of the summer. The RX-8 seems like a good balance of features, while it's hard to ignore the blistering turbo-charged performance you can get from Subaru and Mitsubishi.

Hmm....

The Mazda 6 also comes to mind. I'm probably getting ready to order a Volvo S60R, but I don't know if that meets all of your criteria.

You might want to check out Yahoo's Car Comparison, where you can compare up to four cars' statistics side-by-side.

Yeah, the Mazda 6 should also be a contender, but I'm interesting in getting a "sporty" car. The Mazda 6 is targetted at being a family sedan, so it's unlikely to be a good car for autocrossing. The Volvo is an interesting car, and Consumer Reports "recommends" the S60 series, even while complaining mightily about the S40 and S80. It's on the high-end of the price range of the cars I listed, but then Volvo gives you much nicer interior trim (and, traditionally, amazing stereo systems).

It's an interesting question why the S60 rates so highly while the other Volvo cars rate so much worse. In the overall rankings, this drops Volvo down deep into the "worse than average category" (sandwiched between Chevrolet and Saturn).

You should also check out the VW GTI then. Surprisingly useful trunk space. Get the 1.8T and chip it (~$500), will give you ~210HP. If you're looking to autocross it then I guess you're going to consider suspension changes to any car that you buy.
I haven't looked at the reliability ratings, but there has been only 2 major reliability issues that I can think of. 2000-2001 models had window regulators that could fail, and the window would drop into the door. They've since changed the regulator design, and I haven't seen any reports of the new one failing.
2001 - early 2003 models had (third party manufactured) coilpacks that didn't like cold weather and died mysteriously. This issue has since been addressed.
It might be an idea to look at 2000 for reliability ratings - the coilpack issue would have skewed 2001-2002 numbers.

I'll toss in a vote for the Subaru WRX at around $25,000 or the WRX STi for around $32,000. The WRX is 5.6 seconds 0-60 with 227hp. The STi is 300 hp. (I think the Mitsubishi Evolution is about 270hp). The Subaru WRX is lacking in interior trim if you're also looking at the Volvo's. But my buddy just sold his 9-5 convertable Saab to get a WRX after he took a few test drives. I guess "fun to drive" was worth more to him than "interior comforts".

At your price point, the Maxda RX-8 is damn sexy and so is the Nissan 350Z.

The 1.8L VW's are pretty sweet for what you can get out of them, but those chips only provide torque at low rpms. Also, you can only add so much power to a FWD car before you get tons of torque steer.

There are quite a few WRX owners here on the board, so install wont be a problem for your empeg. (me, Jim Hogan and ithoughti to name a few).

Whatever you do, take TONS of test drives. They're free! I was SO convinced I wanted a Wolfberg Edition VW Jetta w. 1.8L Turbo but after 5 test drives I finally realized that it didn't have enough "umph" for me. I got over the WRX's bug eyes (which I somehow grew very fond of) and still take rides in it just for fun after nearly 2 years.

It all depends on your personal needs, someone else's perfect car isn't necessarily yours.

You should also check out the VW GTI then. Surprisingly useful trunk space. Get the 1.8T and chip it (~$500), will give you ~210HP. If you're looking to autocross it then I guess you're going to consider suspension changes to any car that you buy.
I haven't looked at the reliability ratings, but there has been only 2 major reliability issues that I can think of. 2000-2001 models had window regulators that could fail, and the window would drop into the door. They've since changed the regulator design, and I haven't seen any reports of the new one failing.

If you're even going to consider a GTI, at your price point, don't even bother to look at the 1.8T, go straight to the VR6, much nicer ride, well worth the extra $3000. 200hp, 6 speed, and electronic stabilization. Or better yet, since your warranty doesn't expire till february, wait till the R32 comes to the US (due in sometime between October and December). 240hp with all wheel drive. Should be nice.

As for the cars you listed, after watching what my friends go through, I'd avoid any Mitsubishi product. The tacky interiors, combined with the late night phonecalls from the side of the road have completely turned me off of even looking at their cars. My dad just got a WRX wagon (which he looks ridiculous in). I like how it drives, but the seats are not capable of adjusting into a position that I feel comfortable in.

Umm...if you get the STi, can I have a ride??

Ill second the subaru vote...

If you're even going to consider a GTI, at your price point, don't even bother to look at the 1.8T, go straight to the VR6, much nicer ride, well worth the extra $3000. 200hp, 6 speed, and electronic stabilization. Or better yet, since your warranty doesn't expire till february, wait till the R32 comes to the US (due in sometime between October and December). 240hp with all wheel drive. Should be nice.

Naah...Buy the 1.8T and spend that extra $3k and another $1k on an APR stage 3 kit. 290HP on pump gas, 340 on race.
But Brad made a good point about torque steer. With that much power you'd also really want a Peloquin or Quaiffe (sp?) limited slip diff. And people with that kit tend to have a hard time maintaining traction anyway.
Now that R32 does look very interesting, although it needs to be available as a 4 door.

Whoever that was, it was definitely not me.

My personal thoughts on cars are that I need to get what I want up front, as I'll never have time to play with them after the fact.

Yeah, realised afterwards and editted the post. It was Brad...

I'm intrigued by the Golf R32 (and the corresponding Audi TT) with their nifty computer-controlled manual transmission, but the reliability numbers for Volkswagen/Audi products are exceptionally low, no doubt skewed by the engine problems they've had recently. I also looked at an Audi TT back in 2000 when I ended up getting my BMW. I kept bumping my head every time I got in, and I was freaked by the huge blind spot behind the driver. Sorry, no VW/Audi products for me.

The Mitsubishi Evo's reliability is also a concern. Consumer Reports seems to love the Subaru Imprezza (WRX or not), and they have relatively lower ratings on the Mitsubishi Lancer (non-Evo). Says the Lancer blurb: Interior appointments look and feel insubstantial. Handling is clumsy, the ride is just tolerable, and road noise is pronounced. Presumably, they've souped up the suspension and all, but have they substantially changed the appointments or road noise issues?

As such, the WRX STi seems to dominate the Lancer Evo. Once the dust settles and the massive dealer markups go away, an interesting point of comparison between them will be the performance/price ratio. Nobody's done a side-by-side comparison of the two cars yet.

(And, I just can't get the siren song of a rotary engine out of my head, even though I can get much faster conventional cars for the same money. Grumble.)

I'll third the Subaru vote -- I'd have bought one last year instead of my Frontier, but I've wanted a truck since I was 5.

I'm staggeringly biased in favour of the Subaru (although you want a P1 if you REALLY want spped, handling and a slightly more luxurious interior, as well as a less tricked-out riceboy exterior), but the new 4-wheel drive VW Golf GTi Turbo seems pretty zippy, although I don't know if you get it in the states yet? 250bhp if I remember correctly.

In Mitsubishi's defense, the Evolution (as they are calling it) will be totally differant than the regular Lancer when it comes to handleing and performance. I don't think they even share any body panels. Interior is likely to be the same however.
I just read a funny article about the STi vs new Evolution (or EVO 8 as people are calling it). Basically, when the WRX came to the US, it owned the market because it was the only car in its market (sub-$25K, AWD, turbo, etc etc). So, it was king of the road because nobody else was competing. We knew the Evo was coming, but we could only compare it to the WRX STi of Europe and Japan. Comparing those two cars, the Evo and STi were very similar cars. So at the January North American Auto Show in Detroit, Mitsubishi revealed the Evo and was king of the block. For 72 hours. Everyone was shocked when the new STi was shown a few days later. This was NOT the car that the magazines had been flying to Japan and Europe to test. Subaru intentionally made everyone think that they were simply bringing those cars to the US. But instead, they put a 2.5L Turbo in there (instead of the 2.0) and suddenly had 300hp (30 more than the Evo). And while the Evo stripped all the fancy differentials that European customers get (because Subaru had been hinting it would do the same to keep costs down) the Subaru maintains all the high tech gizmos. The article was kinda funny because it was saying how pissed the Mitsubishi guys were that Subaru so successfully misled everyone - even giving the press de-tuned sample cars. Not even a single Subaru web site had gotten wind of this because only the US is getting this version of the car. Our local PBS station has a show "Autoline Detroit" (that MAY be shown outside our market, I'm not sure) and Sunday they interviewed one of Mitsubishi's USA cheifs and he was asked "With the WRX STi and your Evo coming to market, do you anticipate more "rally type" cars coming into the competition?" He answered "I hope not." lol

I'm glad that VW is bring that car you guys are talking about. Some reports say that the AWD is geared more for safety then performance, but we'll have to wait to see. But the original GTI is what got this whole craze going in the US and is still one of my favorite cars (can't they release a stripped down one that doesn't weight much though?)

Now that R32 does look very interesting, although it needs to be available as a 4 door.

It is. Usually listed as 5 doors over here though (including the rear/trunk opening). Up price from 3 door here in Sweden is about $500.

As to extreme Golfs - there's a Swedish guy named Dahlbäck (Dahlbäck Racing) that has borrowed some parts from Audi racing (transmission from late 80s US IMSA series cars and brakes from the German DTM series cars), made lots of own custom stuff and finished with a Golf with 830 hp

Everything in front of the firewall is custom. 60/40 4-wheel drive, 90% diff.brake at the rear. 2.2 liter 5 cylinder engine, big turbo with 2-stage intercooler. 800-900Nm torque. He's aiming at getting it registered for street use, so he has 2 fuel systems, one for standard gas and one for race gas. Also 2 engine control chips that he can switch between. Gets roughly 1.33 miles per gallon in race mode...

As he has test driven it (can be done before actually registering it) he's been stopped by the police once - only complaint was bald tires and an exhaust that wents to the side instead of to the rear. As he said, they didn't realize what the thing really was

I've got an 88MB avi file from a TV show that test drove it (all in swedish though), and if anyone wants a look, I'll toss it on my web server (only 512kbps though).

/Michael

I'd never heard of a P1. Google helpfully found a tuned Crown Victoria and a Kart racer, but I eventually found the Subaru P1, which looks pretty much just as riced-out as the WRX STi.

And, again, I just can't justify buying a VW given their bad reliability track record.

In reply to:

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...corresponding Audi TT) with their nifty computer-controlled manual transmission, but the reliability numbers for Volkswagen/Audi products are exceptionally low, no doubt skewed by the engine problems they've had recently.

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I think the new 350Z is just great looking, not sure about the overall speed or trunk factor.

I've got a wrangler, so I can't speak to personal experience.

Toying with buying myself a new car...

Does it have to be a new car?

If you open up your options to used cars one or two years old, you gain a lot of options. Porsche 911 comes to mind...

tanstaafl.

Porsche 911 comes to mind...

A-fricken-men.

I'm trying to see if I can pull off buying a slightly aged 911 as well.

I dunno, after seeing "Risky Business" a bunch of times as a teenager, I'd just have an irrational fear of buying a used Porsche.

"Who's the U-boat commander?"

Well, I'd much rather have a brand new one, but that's not happening anytime soon. Plus, by "aged" I mean < 5 years. So, not too old. Just old enough where it's not out of my price range, or only slightly out of it.

A used Porsche? Hmm..... My dad has been driving Porsches for years, and his observation has been that the mechanical stuff tends to work great, but the stupid interior trim pieces and whatnot have all kinds of weird failure modes. From driving his various cars, I'd say that the older Porsche 911's are really annoying and difficult to drive, mostly from their astonishingly heavy clutch. The newest 911's are much more civilized, although that very civilization seems to piss off the purists every bit as much as the new Cayenne.

I haven't checked into the used market for something like a 911C4. What do these tend to go for from a dealer that gives you a multi-year warranty?

My dad bought a '91 911C4 about 2 years ago. Low mileage (25k miles), i think he got it for just about $30k

So I went digging around Yahoo's used car pricing guide. If I somehow managed to find a 1998 Porsche 911 Carerra 4 with 50K miles in "good" condition, I'd expect to spend about $50K. Even a regular 911 from that year would fetch > $40K.

Seems to me that the Subaru gives you a whole lot more for your money.

I had a 1996 BMW M3 and loved it. It meets all of your crieria and then some. 240hp/3000lbs and about a 5.6sec 0-60. Perfect 50/50 weight balance and totally neutral steering. You can take your hands off the wheel at 125mph and it tracks right down the road. You can pick one of these up in great condition with low miles in the low 20's right now.

Please consider a used car. Let somebody else take the huge depreciation hit. No offense intended toward those who like used cars. I've had them too. I guess I'm at that point in my life where it isn't so important to me, but my view is just that: mine.

A word of warning: I had the M3 for 3 years and the next thing I knew my insurance was $7685 for 6 months. It is a very fast car, but it is so refined that 100mph *feels* like about 65mph in another car. I got a few tickets... OK, and a couple of arrests...

Others on the BBS have their empegs installed in this car, too.

I'm now driving a Volvo 245 (wagon). I got it used for $8k and have put over 90k miles on it. Solid, reliable transportation, but not near the fun of the M3.

My next car will be a Mercedes E-Class wagon 4-Matic. This is a $60k car that you can get with very reasonable miles for about $30-32k. If it isn't fast, I want it to be big and utilitarian. I made a promise to myself years ago that small/fast and big/slow are OK, but small/slow I would never do again. If I spring for the E430 (hard to find in a wagon), it won't be slow anyhow. I just wish the 5 speeds were available in the US. I despise automatics, which is why I haven't quite made the jump to the MB.

Used is the ticket.

Jim

Oh, one other thing. The BMW is rear wheel drive. Others will cry foul, but there is no such thing as a front wheel drive sports car. 4wd, sure, but not front wheel drive.

Under no circumstances should you get a sub-6 second front wheel drive car. Period. They suck, and yes, I've driven them.

I live in Minneapolis and drove the M3 through 3 winters. With the traction control and good winter tires the car handled like a dream. It was undrivable in the snow with high performance tires, though, so factor another set of wheels/tires in your budget if you go this route.

In reply to:

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- vaguely useful storage space (kills the Porsche boxster or Honda S2000)

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You may want to take another look at the Boxster; don't forget it's got TWO trunks. A deep one in front and a wide one in the rear.

The tacky interiors

I am looking to buy either the new 350Z or a Corvette Z06 for weekend sport driving only. Interiors are essentially on par (lots of plastic) and the exterior styling on the 350Z leaves me with a feeling it is fad styling. Any opinions on the Z06? BMW M3 and others are out due to lack of local dealerships.

GM has 60 months @ 0% on new cars until April 30.

Went to the New York Auto Show this weekend. I was blown away by how cheap the 350Z's interior was. The Infiniti G35 Coupe was better, but still not up to the interior quality of a Lexus (for example).

The Z06's interior looked better than I would expect from GM. I didn't sit in the driver's seat, but my friend did. He fell in love with the shifter.

I looked very seriously at a Boxster the last time I was car shopping. There's just no way to pile a serious amount of crud into that car. I just drove to Dallas last weekend (~4 hours) with my PowerMac, 23" monitor, travel bags, and came back with all that plus a crate full of CDs. Sadly, none of the two-seat convertibles have that kind of space. The Z3 Coupe was just exactly what I needed... on paper...

As to Corvettes, I'd say the correct answer is the Pontiac GTO (a.k.a. Holden Monaro). I saw one at the Houston Auto Show and I was impressed. They wouldn't let you sit in it, but it looks to have a significantly improved interior relative to the usual GM fodder, and you've got Corvette guts.

Yeah go for the Pontiac GTO:
Real engine (V8)
Rear wheel drive
Great styling
Fast
Designed in Australia (Holden Monaro)!!

If it's a Pontiac, where's all the ugly, crappy plastic body cladding?

Can you get it with a manual transmission? If so, will it when it hits the States?

It is pretty much a Pontiac in name only, (the ubiquitous badge engineering) although apparently the front end styling is different to the Holden Monaro :-

Holden designers worked under direction from their counterparts in the US to inject some Pontiac "DNA" by grafting a bolder, pointier nose on the Monaro's body.


It should already be on sale in the States with a six speed manual :-

The Pontiac GTO will be sold with the Chevrolet-sourced 5.7-litre V8 engine and a four-speed auto or six-speed manual transmission.

Quotes are from this (old) article.

Also see this article for a styling comparison - I must say I prefer the Holden front-end to the Pontiac version!

Another article with 'more definite' (?) info.
Also for a drool session try this site.

It should already be on sale in the States with a six speed manual

It's not. I went by a Pontiac dealership two weekends ago (to test drive a Cadillac CTS) and, while they knew of its existence, and probably had some specs for it, they weren't even sure when they'd see them.

Check out www.pontiac.com
Its hidden in the Vehicles pulldown (New Vehicles)
Typical GM website flash setup, the car looks good though.

I found it. It looked better with the Holden nose, I think, but the specs are impressive. Not the kind of car I'm looking for, though.

Not my kind of car either, I am still waiting for the Chevy SSR to finally get here.