Bathroom Wiring

After an endless search of the web, I decided to turn to the Empeg fellas.

My bathroom currently has a single switch to control a track light as well as the fan, so if the light is on, the fan is on. Not a problem, but the fan isn't the most quiet thing.

So, I took the liberty of buying a double switch, so that I could control them separately. I've had some experience with home wiring so I thought I'd give it a whirl. The only problem I have is that there is a three-conductor wire coming into the switch box, and two-conductor wires going out.

See crude attachment. Maybe I'm going braindead, but I can't figure out for the life of me how to hook up the new switches. Thought I'd turn to the endless brainpower of the forum.

I'm assuming that both the red and black are hot, but if that is the case, why is the switch bypassed by the black in the old setup. Any thoughts?

Let it be known that this reply is coming from someone who didn't even install his own empeg. However, the way I see it, for each device to work (light and fan), they each need a black, white, and tan connection. Since right now the single switch gives that black connection, can't you just run one black connection from one switch to the light and another black connection from the other switch to the fan?

Now you can use 2 different switches to supply black, white, and tan to the devices.

Or, this could burn your house down... but I doubt it.

-Christian

It seems your diagram is incorrect. In the first image, the switch it either completely bypassed, or something else turns off when you kill the switch.

it should be bare is neutral, red is hot, black is ground. the hot should be switched, the ground and neutral constant. split the red before the switch, and split the black and the bare. the light may have no provision for neutral grounding, in which case, send the red (switched) and black to the light, only. Send the other switched red, the other black and the other bare to the fan.

That was the existing setup, I think I failed to mention that. And for others, the tan color was a bare copper ground wire.

And yeah, that's how it was. There was a 4" long black wire from the switch, along with the incoming black and the two outgoing blacks were all twisted together at the common point shown.

You say you have three conductor wire going in and have drawn four. Something's amiss there. in 'standard' wiring, red is live, black is neutral, green is earth. Some schemes have brown live, blue neutral, green/yellow earth.
The light/fan fitting may not have an earth on it, hence the two conductors to the unit. If you want to separate the light and fan functions, you'll need to run another pair/triple. In a bathroom, you should have the fitting earthed.
Supply red (live) gets paralleled thru to the switches; black (neutral) and green (earth) gets joined to the corresponding colour to the appliance. The two reds go to their respective function on the appliance.
If you don't know what you're doing, get a licenced sparky to do the job. Particularly in a bathroom.
I wouldn't go jioning blacks and reds as in those diagrams. You may let a lot of smoke out of the system.

Use string. It's safer.

As shown in the pic (attached), I had already tried these two methods.

Everything was okay in both setups, but it still functioned like the old switch. The top switch operated both at the same time, the bottom did nothing. Does that help any? Does the fact that the two terminals are bridged affect anything?

I've wired outlets where one of the two is controlled by a switch, and that bridge had to be broken. I think in the case of a switch, that tab is broken if there are two different power sources.

Sorry, three conductor w/ a bare ground. Also a bare ground running to each fixture. The red and black should both be hot, as some appliances (stove) use both for a 220 volt source. White should be neutral.

Yeah, that's what I'd like to do, but I was really trying to figure out what to do with the incoming black.

Based on the unorthodox setup that was originally there, I am considering trying this (attached).

Okay, scratch everything...I am an idiot. From a trial and error process I figured it out. It's not possible without complete re-wiring.

Here's the actual setup. Don't know why they go from a 4 conductor to a three conductor, but what do I know. And as far as all of the blacks being twisted together, I think it would make more sense if the incoming black went straight through to the closet and not connect to the fan/light wire.

you Americans have weird stuff why don't you have normal 240v 50Hz electrics like everyone else?


So is that a second phase on the black wire??

While you're at it, drive on the left.

[let the flames begin]

That reminds me.
I was looking at the install picture gallery for someone's Audi TT.
I decided to scuttle any possible purchase of a TT when I realized he had to move the steering wheel to the other side in order to fit an Empeg in the dash!
That's way too much work for me....
(nice install, though)

All the romex I've dealt with her has 3 conductors, black, white, and bare. Black is hot, White is neutral, and bare is ground.

I would guess that the red wire from the existing switch ALSO goes to the light and fan, correct?

I have a good deal of experience with house wiring here in Canada, but the codes here tend to be more strict than those in many parts of the USA.

Up here, the main black/white supply lines typically pass through the "light outlet" (the ceiling box where the light and/or fan are mounted), and continue along to other outlets on the same circuit. A switch is wired in by running a wire pair (black+white, or black+red) from the ceiling outlet to the switch. When the switch is "on", the current just loops into the switch on one wire, and then back to the fixture (fan, light) on the other wire.

Cheers

-ml

Yeah, US convention is white=neutral, black=hot, bare=ground. In the case where a second distinct hot is required then a 4 conductor cable is used, with a red wire for the second hot. This can occur for a few reasons, the biggest being for wiring a 3 way switch at stairways or for providing multiple phases to increase the voltage for power hungry devices (washing machines, driers, large AC units etc)

for providing multiple phases to increase the voltage for power hungry devices (washing machines, driers, large AC units etc)

That's what you get for using the teeny-weeny 110 volt system
But wouldn't multiple-phase wiring use entirely different colours? And would that be 3-phase, or some weird "2 phases, both referenced to neutral" stuff...?

But wouldn't multiple-phase wiring use entirely different colours? And would that be 3-phase, or some weird "2 phases, both referenced to neutral" stuff...?

Residential - 120/240v, 1phase, 3wire. Tyically Black (hot), White (neutral) and bare ground. Red wire is usually either a traveler in the case of a three way or a second hot on a different phase.

New commercial wiring is typically 120/208volt, 3phase 4wire black, red, blue, white and green (ground) or 277/480volt 3phase, 4wire which is usually brown, orange, yellow, grey (neutral) and green.

The new stuff at least sounds pretty rational. But how do you guys cope with all those different versions?

OK, here in Europe we have two different standards - the one based on the German standard, suitably overspeced, and used by almost everybody, and the UK one based on the cheapest, minimal way - used only by the UK and .... yes... Holland!

How can you have a circuit using only two of three phases? I would have thought that there would be a phase 'lag' where the third phase should be peaking. I can understand a second hot in order to provide more current through a separately fused circuit.

But how do you guys cope with all those different versions?

Quite simply really since we have two different electrical license classifications. The first being restricted which basically limits you to residential type work under 400amps which is all single phase, 3wire.

Then in order to work on commercial/industrial type stuff you need the unrestricted license. Which covers the 120/208 and the 277/480 and even some of the older type of stuff when they used to use the delta transformers instead of the WYE type transformers that we use now. In a commercial building you basically can look around in the switchgear room and if you don't see any transformers a quick assumption would be that it's 120/208, if there are transformers in the gear room then typically that would mean there was a 277/480volt service. In a 277/480volt building typicall all fluorescent, HID lighting loads would be 277, the RTU's would be 480v 3phase and your incandescent lighting and convenience ereceptacles would be 120volt.

I have seen some electricians unpleasantly surprised when they tried tripping a 277volt circuit to cut off the power instead of flipping off the breaker. 277 will melt your kleins pretty good.

A tester definately comes in handy.

How can you have a circuit using only two of three phases?
Simple... put the circuit on a two pole breaker instead of a three pole.

I would have thought that there would be a phase 'lag' where the third phase should be peaking.
Sorry, don't know the physics behind it but it works.

. I can understand a second hot in order to provide more current through a separately fused circuit.
On the same phase? That won't work, it must be a different phase... A 208volt circuit won't have a neutal (unless of course it's for an electronic stove, washer, dryer, etc where it needs 120volt) but will be on a 2 pole breaker.

why don't you have normal 240v 50Hz electrics like everyone else?

Is 240volt from line to line or line to neutral?

Like here in the US with 120/240 single phase from phase to neutral or phase to ground you would get 120volt but phase to phase you would get 240volt.

??

Up here, the main black/white supply lines typically pass through the "light outlet" (the ceiling box where the light and/or fan are mounted), and continue along to other outlets on the same circuit. A switch is wired in by running a wire pair (black+white, or black+red) from the ceiling outlet to the switch. When the switch is "on", the current just loops into the switch on one wire, and then back to the fixture (fan, light) on the other wire.

That's how it works here except in residential what you will see a lot is a 3wire (black, red, white, ground) run from the switch to the ceiling box to accomodate a ceiling fan as well as a light kit on the fan. That way you would tie the black to the white at the ceiling box (making the whit hot) then pigtail off the white in the switchbox to two switches (one for the fan and one for the light) then you would hit the fan with the black and the light kit with the red (or vise versa).

Is 240volt from line to line or line to neutral?

Europe's had 2 nearly identical system: 3 phase 220V and 3 phase 240. We're harmonising to 3 phase 230V (line to neutral, 400V line to line)

/Michael

How can you have a circuit using only two of three phases? I would have thought that there would be a phase 'lag' where the third phase should be peaking. I can understand a second hot in order to provide more current through a separately fused circuit

The latter is precisely what I meant. I see a lot of that in places that have 3-phase coming in - they use one (or more) of the phases, referenced to neutral, as normal, separate circuits.