CPU temp?
Posted by: tfabris
CPU temp? - 21/08/2003 17:16
I'm messing with various options for keeping my new P4 3.2 CPU cooled, trying to strike a balance between noise and cooling. I am monitoring the CPU temperature with a software utility as I mess with various things.
Two questions:
1. Where on the motherboard is the temperature sampled from? Within the CPU, or somewhere outside of it?
2. What's a good ceiling I should put on sustained CPU temperature? For instance, while playing a game like Unreal 2 at 1280x1024?
Right now it's hovering at about 114f when idling at the windows desktop, and at about 140f when looping the Unreal 2 intro demo. But in the latter state, the fan is noisier than I would like it.
Posted by: ricin
Re: CPU temp? - 21/08/2003 17:20
1. Where on the motherboard is the temperature sampled from? Within the CPU, or somewhere outside of it?
Usually down in the middle of the socket, right beneath the chip.
Posted by: tman
Re: CPU temp? - 21/08/2003 17:24
Isn't the temperature sensor (diode) now embedded in the CPU core?
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 21/08/2003 17:28
I would go to the motherboard monitor site and look at the motherboard list. If the cpu sensor listed for your board shows diode, then it is the internal diode.
Link
Posted by: ricin
Re: CPU temp? - 21/08/2003 17:33
Oops. On newer chips, yeah. Most boards still have the sensor under the socket as well though.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 03:14
114f seems a little high for an idle CPU, especially for an Intel. Even with the stock cooler, that temp shouldn't exceed 100f. (I only have experience with P4's up to 2.8, but I can't imagine that the 3.2 is THAT much hotter)
When stressed, the CPU could go up to 120-130f, but that's about all I would allow. I believe the max temp is about 160f for an Intel, and with your 140f you're getting pretty close to that.
Possible solutions :
Use a good high quality cooler, like the
Zalman CNPS7000(AL)CU. They're really great coolers, and they're very quiet too.
Use good cooling paste, like
Arctic Silver 3, not that crap that comes standard with the cooler. This can make a lot of difference.
Thirdly, you can also try to
lower the voltage of your CPU just a little. If you don't exaggerate in this, your system will remain just as stable and the temperture will drop. Warning : this is a last-resort measure, and I would recommend to try the first to options first before doing this!
If all that doesn't give you the wanted results, you should look for alternative cooling methods like water cooling or phase-change.
Posted by: mlord
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 07:02
I don't think I have ever had an Intel CPU that ran below about 110F, at least not since the early 386 days.
My current P4-2.4G idles at about 42C (114F). These are spec'd for proper operation up to 75C (180F), so you are well in the acceptable range.
Intel have a long and storied history of manufacturing space heaters.
Cheers
Posted by: Dignan
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 07:05
Yeah, 112 doesn't seem horribly bad to me. Before I replaced my faulty HSF unit on my AMD, it was running idle at around 50 degrees (C).
I second that Zalman unit. I've got it on my AMD and love it. It's nearly silent at low speeds that still cool it very well. The difference between low speed and high speed (which isn't very loud at all) is about 3-4 degrees.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 07:49
112 *is* not that bad for an Intel, and it would actually be pretty cool if it were an AMD. (they run a lot hotter than Intel CPU's)
It's just that it could be cooler, that's all. And it WILL be cooler with such a Zalman fan. I absolutely LOVE those things!
Mark is right, Tony is not in the "danger-zone". But personally I would try and get those temps down a bit.
Posted by: Dignan
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 08:24
Yeah, I'm aware of all that, it was just that there seemed to be this opinion that it was too hot, when it doesn't seem too unreasonable for a stock cooling unit.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 08:57
I believe the max temp is about 160f for an Intel, and with your 140f you're getting pretty close to that.
I read an article which showed that Intel's own built-in protection (the thing that'll slow down the CPU speed gradually based on temp if you enable the feature) kicks in around 172f. So yeah, I agree, I'd tend to want to keep it under 160.
Last night I tried putting in a makeshift duct which routed air from outside the case directly onto the CPU, then played a bunch of Unreal 2 with the case cover on. It worked great as far as keeping the CPU temp around 140f. And the motherboard temp didn't get above 115. So I was happy with that. Except then the problem became the disk drives. After that session, I opened the case and all the built up heat had made the drive casings hotter than I'd have liked. I'm going to investigate some case fans.
I also had another idea, that I could do a pairs of quiet 40mm fans in certain spots on the case that don't accept an 80mm fan. I remember seeing somewhere an ad for a very quiet 40mm fan, I'll see what I can come up with.
Posted by: mlord
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 09:14
It shouldn't take much air movement to keep things cool in there.
The fans in my Empeg docks are 40x40x10mm, max 25CFM I believe, though I run them MUCH slower than that.
Cheers
Posted by: ashmoore
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 09:42
I'll go with that approach for cooling.
Get a bigger fan with a speed control and slow it down until you get your personal balance between airflow and noise.
I have three 120 fans in my case, all slowed down to give my ears a rest.
Works quite well.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 10:03
Last night I tried putting in a makeshift duct which routed air from outside the case directly onto the CPU...
A couple of months ago I was also looking for the ultimate cooling solution for my Pc. That's why I ended up with watercooling, but I did try it with multiple fans first.
I came to the conclusion that is was generally a better idea to remove heat by blowing the hot air out of the PC than by blowing room-temperature-air into the case.
I first tried this by making a smal tunnel through which the heat from the CPU was directly blown out of the case, so that it couldn't add to the temperature inside the case. I used those paper toilet rolls for that. Worked pretty well, but it could be improved.
I also had another idea, that I could do a pairs of quiet 40mm fans in certain spots on the case that don't accept an 80mm fan. I remember seeing somewhere an ad for a very quiet 40mm fan, I'll see what I can come up with.
I wouldn't do that if I were you. No matter how "quiet" these little fans are supposed to be, they will ALWAYS be more noisier than their bigger brothers. The reason is simple : a small fan has to rotate faster to move an equal amount of air as a larger fan, and thus tends to be noisier.
It's for this reason that I modded my case with a dremel tool so that 120mm fans would fit. The ideal setup is one 120mm fan on the front bottom of your case blowing fresh air into the case and one 120mm fan at the back pulling the hot air out. That way you get as sort of "continuous air flow" through your case. That, combined with a good CPU cooler will give you the best results.
Of course, not all case can be equiped with 120mm fans, not even after using a dremel tool on them. In that case I woud still advise you to use 80mm fans where possible, and avoid small fans as much as you can. Adding lots of little fans to your system WILL increase the noise it makes tremendously, even if they are so-called "silent fans".
I'll add a few pics of my setup to show you what I mean.
This is the backside of the case. You can clearly see the big 120mm hole that I made with the Demel tool. Through the hole you can see the other 120mm hole I made in the front of the case.
This is the big hole in the front of the case up close.
This is with the 120mm fan on. The fan is a Vantec "stealth" fan, supposed to be very quiet. (and it is). You can also see the pump and the reservoir of the water cooling system. The big black thing in the upper left corner is the radiator.
I'm very pleased with the result. The mod is invisible (because there's still a metal and a plexi plate with holes in it on the front of the PC) and performs very well. Also, because the fan is also behind the harddisk tray, my harddisk stays nice and cool.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 10:04
used for second pic
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 10:04
used for third pic
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 10:38
I came to the conclusion that is was generally a better idea to remove heat by blowing the hot air out of the PC than by blowing room-temperature-air into the case.
Yeah, I agree that I need to work on doing that properly.
I first tried this by making a smal tunnel through which the heat from the CPU was directly blown out of the case, so that it couldn't add to the temperature inside the case.
I agree with this idea, but to do that I would need to reverse the direction of the Intel-supplied fan that sits atop the CPU. Its current design has it blowing downwards onto the heat sink. I wonder if there's a way I can just flip it?
I wouldn't do that if I were you. No matter how "quiet" these little fans are supposed to be, they will ALWAYS be more noisier than their bigger brothers. The reason is simple : a small fan has to rotate faster to move an equal amount of air as a larger fan, and thus tends to be noisier. It's for this reason that I modded my case with a dremel tool so that 120mm fans would fit.
Interesting! Definitely something to consider.
Marvelous pictures, thank you!
Posted by: mlord
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 11:08
Keep in mind that fans blow more or less straight outwards, but they draw air more from a radius around the edges.. Inverting the fan direction on a CPU heatsink will likely make for decreased cooling.
Cheers
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 11:14
Good point. Since I can monitor the temp/fanspeed ratios, I could reverse it and try it to see if that's the case.
The fan is kind of "ducted" over the heatsink in this configuration, so maybe it will just be drawing from the heatsink as much as it would have been blowing on the heatsink.
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 13:03
There are some heatsinks that desire a certain direction of airflow - fan sucking or blowing. Some of the Alpha heatsinks want the fan to suck air instead of blowing air on the heatsink. I believe it had to do with having cooler air at the base of the fins instead of the tips.
Posted by: rompel
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 13:31
My current P4-2.4G idles at about 42C (114F). These are spec'd for proper operation up to 75C (180F), so you are well in the acceptable range.
Sorry for the nitpick, but you need a new C->F conversion chart.
42 * (9/5) + 32 = 107.6
75 * (9/5) + 32 = 167
--John
Posted by: Dignan
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 14:24
Hmm, he's right. Mine's running at 144F, which the program converts into 46C.
So, congratulations! You've cooled your CPU without doing anything!
Posted by: Jerz
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 16:40
hmmmm... My PIV 3.0GHZ surfing the internet is at 36.3C or 97.3F
Posted by: DeadFire
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 17:00
I'll add a few pics of my setup to show you what I mean.
I have a Lian-Li that looks just like that. Think I could yank a bunch of its fans and mod it to take some 120's? But I'm no longer a fan (no pun intended) of the Vantec Stealths; had a bad experience with them earlier this year.
Another note along those lines is that one fan blowing into or out of the case moves x amount of air. 2 fans blowing in or 2 blowing out moves nearly 2x as much air (small losses based on what the air flows over to get into the case and such. However, one fan blowing in, and one blowing out, only moves something like 1.5x as much air. It was always better having all fans going in, or out, of whatever chamber you were working with. This is from our lab tests in HVAC class, and generally agreed on by the prof.
Some things I've done if it gives you any ideas:
1) I have a single 90mm fan at the very front of the hard drive cage, with three drives installed in the cage. This works for the Antec case and anything similar, may or may not for you. I also have three hard drives in it, so... cools them quite well.
2) I have only two case fans, both in back blowing out. They are the Panaflo L1-A's. There's L1, M1, H1, and U1, each flows progressively more air. (I also theorize the letters stand for low, med, high, and ultra but haven't seen anything to back that up). The L1-A's blow "a good amount" of air, enough to keep my happy that the case has a constant flow through it, but I can't quantify that amount. These fans are 100% silent. OK, 99% anyways. I can't hear them. (Also, my power supply blows air out as well, and there's slats in the front of the case where it all draws in from. Makes neat dust patterns).
3) On the CPU cooler, I have a Thermalright AX-7 heatsink. I think the bigger the better. More fin, more surface, more heat loss. Their SK-900 and some others are supposed to be even better. I have a YS-Tech adjustable speed fan as well. Some may consider it a pain, and I guess I wish it was in fact automated, but what I do is turn it down to nearly silent for surfing, and up if gaming. With the speakers up or headphones on I can't hear it anyways.
4) I don't have a fancy clear window on the side of my case, so I went ahead and grabbed a piece of fuzzy carpet remnant from a friend who just built a house. I put a small piece under the power supply near the CPU, and a large piece that completely covers the side of the case above the CPU. (I did wash it and brush it to get as much fuzz as possible off - yes it looked silly but satisfied me I wouldn't mess anything up with stray fibers). This little mod made a huge difference on the amount of noise coming out of the case.
5) Lastly, as an Athlon owner, I don't monitor temps too much, I just know they run hot. The difference between 40 or 50, even 60 if an hour into a high paced game, means nothing to me. So what if the CPU lasts 20 years instead of 25? I don't see it worth being concerned about.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 17:47
I'm not sure. What Lian-Li case is it? My case is not a Lian-Li case. It's an AMS gTower case. I deliberately stayed away from Lian-Li because they almost all (well, the midi tower series anyway) use such a "pull-out" system, with which you can pull your whole backplate out via the back of the case, when your motherboard is still screwed down. (sorry, don't know how else to describe it, but you probably know what I mean). This results in a Lian-Li only using one or two 80mm fans rather than 120mm. I doubt they have the room to mod it for use with 120mm fans.
I must admit that I gathered all my information concerning this from photos I saw of Lian-Li cases. I didn't go and measure up one of those cases IRL. So it might be do-able, but if it would fit, I imagine it would be *really* tight.
One place I'm almost 100% sure you CAN mod a hole into is in the top of the case. This helps extremely well to pull the hot air out, as hot air rises anyway.
Concerning the Vantec fans, I happen to agree with you. Considering all the trouble I went through to actually lay my hands on them (they weren't available in Belgium at the time), I now know that they weren't worth it. They do the job for now, but if I had to make a new choice at this time I would definitely go for Pabst fans, or maybe Enermax.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 17:57
I went ahead and grabbed a piece of fuzzy carpet remnant from a friend who just built a house. I put a small piece under the power supply near the CPU, and a large piece that completely covers the side of the case above the CPU. (I did wash it and brush it to get as much fuzz as possible off - yes it looked silly but satisfied me I wouldn't mess anything up with stray fibers). This little mod made a huge difference on the amount of noise coming out of the case
I too did this once. Except I bought some specially designed Pax carpets to quiet the case. And I must admit : it helped. The only downside was : the temp in my case got A LOT higher from then on. I realised then that the carpet kept the case from loosing at lot of it's heat through natural convection.
It's because of this that I would not recommed such acoustic mats. To get your system quiet, it's better to invest in quiet fans and HD enclosures IMHO.
Posted by: tman
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 19:08
I found that out as well when I tried to quieten a Shuttle SV-25. The acoustic mat reduced the noise a little but it got very hot inside due to the insulation effects of the foam. Also it really smelt and even after a few months it still had a lingering plastic/petroleum odour to it.
It's quite difficult to get the stuff off as well I found!
In the end I replaced the CPU heatsink/fan, PSU fan and casing fans and it's much better now. I wouldn't want it in my bedroom but it's okay under my desk.
Posted by: DeadFire
Re: CPU temp? - 22/08/2003 20:46
I deliberately stayed away from Lian-Li because they almost all (well, the midi tower series anyway) use such a "pull-out" system, with which you can pull your whole backplate out via the back of the case, when your motherboard is still screwed down.
Although both side walls and the front plate are easily removable, the motherboard tray is only removable (from the side) after removing a screw or two.
One place I'm almost 100% sure you CAN mod a hole into is in the top of the case.
This particular case already has a ceiling fan blowing out. It also has two fans on the front wall that pull air in, and yet another case fan on the rear. Also, my Enermax PSU has a fan on its bottom (inside the case) as well as on the back.
So, if I can't fit a 120 in the front, I think I should probably be able to at least swap out the two fans that are there for a 92. And since the rear of the case looks IMHO exactly like yours, I think I can put a 120 there. As for the ceiling, if I can squeeze a 92 up there (assuming that's what the current one isn't), I'd be happy. Do you think that might be one fan too many?
Posted by: drakino
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 00:06
My P4 2.26 using the stock Shuttle ICE heatpipe sits about 46 when idle with the fan at quiet speeds, and it drops to 38 with the fan running full blast. Under load, CPU usually sits in the 50's. 68 is my threshold for the fan to kick into full speed mode, and it has never done this on its own.
--edit And for the record, all P4 chips have had integrated diodes to measure their temp. This is how they implement the emergancy clock throttling if the processor overheats. Athlons, the initial ones didn't have a diode, but the recent ones do (Athlon XP, etc...).
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 02:54
Although both side walls and the front plate are easily removable, the motherboard tray is only removable (from the side) after removing a screw or two.
Cool, so it is different then from most of the Lian-Li cases that I have seen. I should work then.
Although both side walls and the front plate are easily removable, the motherboard tray is only removable (from the side) after removing a screw or two.
No, I don't think so. You can never have too many fans, assuming they don't bother you with their noise. That's why I would advise you to also invest in a baybus of some sort. I'll use the Vantec Nexus now as an example, but there are
a lot of others too. I personally use the Zalman Fanmate that is also on that link. (but that's because my water cooled system doesn't need as many fans. Only one on the radiator really, the other on is to cool the disks, the inside of the case and to keep the airflow continuous and fresh)
This will allow you to run your fans at 5v instead of 12v, having them slow down considerably, getting rid al all the noise they create BUT still having them cool adequately. You can control them via the buttons. (except when using the fanmate of course, those are inside the case) Then if you're playing a CPU intensive game and your PC could do with the extra cooling : no problem : turn all the fans up. You're not likely to be bothered with the extra noise your PC will make if you're playing a game anyway.
If your PC has room in the front for two 80mm, then you should be able to mod that to one 120mm (or indeed, at least to a 92mm). Which Lian-Li case it is ? Do you have a link of it on their page somewhere ? It might be easier for me to tell you what I think if I can see what I'm talking about.
Don't relie on your PSU to remove a lot of heat from your case. It already has a lot of heat to remove from it's own electronics. I will help of course, but nowhere near as much as a dedicated fan.
I would still also use that blowhole fan. And I would try to fit a 120mm fan. (blowhole fans are VERY effective since that is where most if the hot air in your case floats to) If it didn't fit I would make it fit, using a Dremel tool.
I know it's a hard choice to put a Dremel tool to such a beautiful (and expensive) case. But if you're careful you'll have very clean results, and the added cooling is really worth it IMO.
Posted by: Jerz
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 03:19
For cooling I'm using the
Xaser III case which has seven fans along with the
Thermaltake Subzero 4G thermo electric cooling system which controls the case fan speed as well to quiet those down somewhat.
Posted by: skibum
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 03:22
I've just replaced my 1.4gz thunderbird which was watercooled with a P4 3gz HT.
The P4 idles at 45c and underload gets upto 62c. So I decided to watercool it. Now underload it's at 42c, and idle it goes down to 36c. Also the noisy had gone.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 04:22
Also the noisy had gone
Nice, isn't it ? That's also the main reason I went the watercooling route.
On a same but different note : have you guys seen the soon-to-be-released
Zalman TNN-500A case yet ? Totally silent, because there's NOT ONE fan in this case ! (not even in the PSU !). It's very expensive though, but I don't think that will stop me from buying one!
Posted by: DeadFire
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 06:30
Do you have a link of it on their page somewhere ? It might be easier for me to tell you what I think if I can see what I'm talking about.
I bought it from Newegg a while ago. It's the PC-7B, which is essentially the PC-7 in black. Newegg has more pictures than Lian-Li's website on their
product page, although those images don't show the blowhole fan that I definitely do have.
As for the fan sizes - I wasn't sure before but I have measured them now. They are all 80mm. And I do like the idea of having a fan controller. It's not often that I play games, so I could keep the noise down with one of those most of the time. On the page you linked, I think I like that 3.5" Nexus. I won't have more than 4 fans to control if I'm going to mod the case, and my 3.5" external bays are all unused at the moment.
So, in short, thanks for the advice. Think it's about time I call up my buddy and ask to borrow his dremel tool.
Posted by: Jerz
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 06:38
<<< Zalman TNN-500A case>>>
And it's *only* about 45pounds, not much heavier than the one I currently have and the casters can support up to one ton
.
Any idea of cost?
Posted by: tman
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 06:47
Bah. I thought you meant it was £45 at first and was wondering why it was so cheap
Posted by: mlord
Noisy hard drives - 23/08/2003 07:33
Speaking of noise..
Not long ago I yanked my nice new WD120GB drive from my main desktop, because it makes way too much noise from just sitting there and spinning.
Instead, I plugged in a 160GB Maxtor I had lying around -- one of the very first LBA48 drives ever manufactured. It is much quieter at idle, but makes way more noise when seeking (accessing the drive).
So.. I've just been playing with the onboard "Acoustic Management" features of the drive, and there is a dramatic difference in noise levels between "fast/noisy" and "slower/quieter" modes. Like, a HUGE difference!
So, when reindexing the drive, I can speed it up at the expense of increased seek noise, and the rest of the time I can quiet it down to very reasonable levels.
Nice..!
(Linux: "hdparm -M" )
Cheers
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 07:35
Now that I have seen the photo's of your case, it's become much more clear. This is what I would do :
1) I would mod the space where those two 80mm fans are in the front to make room for one 120mm fan. Those fans push a lot more air, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if one 120mm fan ends up to be more effective than two 80mm ones. (depends on what 120mm you buy of course)
2) mod the back of the case so that it can also hold a bigger fan. I don't think that a 120mm will fit there, but 92mm is certainly do-able.
3) mod the top blowhole so that a 120mm fan will fit.
If you use just those 3 fans, even at 5v, I can guarantee you than you case temp wil drop significantly. AND things will be a lot more silent too. The only thing you'll probably still hear is your HD.
On the page you linked, I think I like that 3.5" Nexus
That one is my favorite too. Especially since, like you say, the 3,5" bays are unused anyway. A word of warning though : the 5,25" version of that fan controller is known to make a high pitch whine when the fans are turned to 5v (low speed). Poor electronics if you ask me. But this 3,5" is a totally new version, so this may be remedied by now, I don't know. Just thought you might want to know that.
So, in short, thanks for the advice. Think it's about time I call up my buddy and ask to borrow his dremel tool
You're most welcome! These are really fun projects to do, especially when you get the desired results in the end. If you need any more info, just ask.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 07:40
<<< Zalman TNN-500A case>>>
Any idea of cost?
There are rumours going around that the case may cost as much as $1000 ! These rumors haven not been confirmed nor denied by Zalman however. I don't actually believe that they will cost that much. For that price you can get yourself one of those
phase-change fridge PC's !
I guess we'll see in september. That's when the TNN-500A is scheduled for release.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: Noisy hard drives - 23/08/2003 07:53
I also switched from a WD 120gig HD to a Maxtor. The main reason for this was that, after all the trouble I went through to get my system silent, the HD ended up being the loudest component. So I bought myself a Maxtor 200gig, which used an FDB motor. VERY big difference in sound compared to the WD !! I was most pleased.
Unfortunately, the Maxtor died about 40 days later. No warning, just dead. I had backupped about 90% of my data, but still lost some important stuff. Grrr. This was the third time this happened to me with Maxtor, and I can guarantee you it will also be the last time.
WD has finally announced some FDB drives too now, so with a bit of luck, I'll then have the opportunity to get a lot of diskspace that is relieable AND silent too. (WD has never given me any trouble - so far...)
I've just been playing with the onboard "Acoustic Management" features of the drive, and there is a dramatic difference in noise levels
I know. I haven't used the acoustic management software from Maxtor (and probably never will now
), but I have used the software from IBM on an IBM/Hitachi drive. You're right, the difference is really big, and for someone who really only uses his PC to write texts and surf the net and for whom HD speed thus isn't THAT important (I guess that's the same group of people who would like to have their PC silent), it comes highly recommended !
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 17:20
Speaking of fan controllers, here is a temp/fan controller that is different:
Link
I like the analog displays, but it only controls two fans. Personally, if I wanted to go really retro, I would make a fan controller that had some Nixie tubes. Might have to think about that one...
I always wanted my empeg to control some Nixie tubes for a visualization.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Noisy hard drives - 23/08/2003 21:28
Well, I actually have never used acoustic management software from any company -- I use my own, with Liunx.
Cheers
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 22:07
Another note along those lines is that one fan blowing into or out of the case moves x amount of air. 2 fans blowing in or 2 blowing out moves nearly 2x as much air (small losses based on what the air flows over to get into the case and such. However, one fan blowing in, and one blowing out, only moves something like 1.5x as much air.
I took this to heart, and I've now got what I think is a proper solution.
For starters, I bought a replacement CPU cooler, a
Zalman CNPS7000A-AlCu. This is a very nice unit. Fit perfectly in the case, and is orders of magnitude more quiet than the Intel fan and heatsink that came with the chip. Not silent by any stretch of the imagination, but a lot quieter.
Then I got two
Vantech SF8025L case fans. Therse are medium-airflow 80mm fans. I didn't have an easy way of mounting a 120mm fan otherwise I would have gone that route. Again, these are not silent but they are reasonably quiet.
Mounting of the case fans was an adventure. There is one spot for an 80mm case fan in my case, which I wanted to use. But the case designers didn't, for some reason, expect it to be used. Even though there were holes drilled in the aluminum inner casing where the fan mounts, there were no openings in the colored plastic outer shell. So I dremeled some. The shell had some stylistic "arc" shapes in the plastic, so I just sliced big slots in those arcs with the dremel tool. Nice big openings for air, now. But when the fan was installed it still didn't blow much air because the holes in the aluminum inner shell were too small. So I dremeled ou that section of the case, slicing it up much like Archeon's picture. Now that fan blows plenty of air.
The second case fan was for the drive bays. I had enough room to squeak a single 80mm fan right in front of two of my disk drives. But the drive bay covers are solid, thus not able to transfer air. So I drilled a nice circular pattern of holes in the drive bay covers, and hot glued everything together as a unit. Now that fan blows a significant amount of air over the disk drives and keeps them cool.
So the system now has two 80mm fans blowing room-temp air into the case from the front. One at floor level and one at drive-bay level. There are ventilation grates in the back of the case which allow the air to exit out the back. The power supply also blows out the back. So I think I've now got it doing what I'd like it to do, airflow-wise.
The CPU idles in the 105-115f range now, and it didn't get any higher than 140f as I was playing through the rest of Unreal 2 today.
The only thing left is to re-arrange my disk drives and get rid of one of the three so that I can have only two disk drives with both of them being blown upon by the upper fan. Right now the C drive is between the two fans, right under the floppy disk drive. And it gets hotter than I'd like. So that's just a re-arrangement question I think, and then all will be well.
It's noisier than my old system, still, but I think it's about as quiet as I'm going to get it.
One final note: Those Zalman and Vantec fans are POWERFUL. First time I've actually yelped in pain when my finger accidentally hit a case fan.
Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful information and suggestions!
Posted by: tman
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 22:13
Did you install a Zalman fanmate onto the fans as well? I've got a couple and set the fans low enough to start reliably and cool but also to be nearly silent. I can only hear them if I've got my head right up against the case now.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 23/08/2003 22:20
The Zalman fanmate is currently sitting unused in my drawer. The length of the wires that were supplied prevented it from reaching any place useful or easily accessible. I could have extended the wires, but decided not to because with this 3.2 CPU, I need all the cooling I can get. The case and fans are only just barely coping with all the heat from the components at the moment, and I'm afraid of lowering the speed of any of them.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 24/08/2003 02:12
Nice to read everything worked out pretty well. Have you got any pics of the mods you did ?
Vantec fans...Again, these are not silent but they are reasonably quiet.
While those Vantec fans are indeed supposed to be Stealth, they are not silent. You can make them a bit more silent though, and you do this by getting rid of the vibrations they cause. A fan that spins vibrates and these vibrations are enhanced through the metal of the case. You can keep this from happening by glueing some rubber on the case and then screwing the fan onto that. The rubber absorbes the vibrations and the noise is gone.
You can actually see this on the third pic I posted earlier in this thread : the brown rubber pries out from between the fan and the case. The rubber I used was some of that self-adhesive stuff that people use on the windows of their houses to keep the draught out. Works very well and easy, becasue it's self adhesive. You also loose NO air movement because it's a nice secure fit.
This is in no way a necessary mod to do, but it's just a thought.
First time I've actually yelped in pain when my finger accidentally hit a case fan.
Ah, you noticed that too ? The edges on those fans are really sharp and can cause some nasty cuts. I also didn't notice that, before it was too late.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: Noisy hard drives - 24/08/2003 02:13
Well, I actually have never used acoustic management software from any company -- I use my own, with Liunx.
/me smacks hand against forehead.
I should have known! DOH!
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 24/08/2003 12:04
Nice to read everything worked out pretty well. Have you got any pics of the mods you did ?
I took a picture just now and attached it. It's not spectactular, just shows the holes I drilled in the drive cover plate, and you can faintly see the outline of the fan behind it. At the bottom are the "arcs" where I cut openings from the inside for the lower fan.
A fan that spins vibrates and these vibrations are enhanced through the metal of the case. You can keep this from happening by glueing some rubber on the case and then screwing the fan onto that.
I thought about that, but both of my mounting locations didn't have much clearance. For instance, in the photo, that upper fan is an entire solid hot-glued assembly consisting of the fan and the two cover plates. And the fan nearly touches the disk drives mounted behind it. and I can't move the disk drives any farther back because the RAM chips interfere. The IDE connector of the lower disk drive just barely brushes the second RAM chip.
Actually, if I'd left the RAM chips where they originally were, I could have moved the drive back farther, but then I got the helpful information in another thread about putting the ram in the proper bank arrangement to get the dual-mode speed out of it.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 24/08/2003 13:57
I took a picture just now and attached it.
Looks pretty good. I'm sure the fan will do it's work. Now all you have to worry about is cleaning the inside of your case now and then because that fan will pull quite a bit of dust inside of it.
I thought about that, but both of my mounting locations didn't have much clearance
It doesn't take much room. In my case 1mm, maybe 1,5mm. But as I said before, not a required mod for cooling performance anyway. Besides, you glued it to plastic plates and those will probably also dampen the vibrations a bit.
I could have moved the drive back farther, but then I got the helpful information in another thread about putting the ram in the proper bank arrangement to get the dual-mode speed out of it.
I know. I was one of those rascals that convinced you to place your memory like this. (but is IS really the right way to install them though!
)
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 24/08/2003 19:14
I know. I was one of those rascals that convinced you to place your memory like this. (but is IS really the right way to install them though! )
Yup, and you were right. It's in the manual for the motherboard, and the RAM slots are even color-coded to help remind me.
Wow, reading the manual... what a concept.
My 3Dmark2003 score improved a bit after changing the RAM around. I wonder if that was the reason, or if it was a fluke?
Posted by: RobotCaleb
Re: CPU temp? - 24/08/2003 19:47
speaking of 3dmark2003, what kind of scores do you get with that machine?
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 07:43
Changing the RAM chip order pushed the score up to just above 6000. This is with the latest version (there are patches at their web site).
There are some spots in the demos that really bog down the frame rate. Some of the scenes in the "nature" demo are pushing so many multi-textured polygons that the frame rate drops to 11fps.
Anyone have any 3Dmark 2K3 scores to share that I can compare it to?
Posted by: drakino
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 09:33
I honestly don't trust any 3DMark score anymore, after the NVidia fiasco with all the cheats in their drivers. Who knows what is lurking in any drivers these days from either company.
I did use 3DMark to test my 2.26/9700 Pro against a 2.8/9500 Pro, both running the same drivers. The CPU made a bigger impact then I expected, with the 2.8 box scoring 500 points higher then mine.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 10:38
An update on the way the case is working out...
The Vantech case fans push so much cool air through the case that the variable-speed fan in my 400w power supply slows down to practically nothing. So much so that the software that reports my fan speeds thinks something has gone wrong with the power supply fan.
(This isn't a problem, I just think it's neat.)
Posted by: RobotCaleb
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 13:59
did you go with the 5800 or the 5900?
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 14:55
5900 with 256 megs of RAM. The video card alone was $500.00.
Edit: It was
this one, specifically.
Posted by: RobotCaleb
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:10
ill post my ati 9700 benchmark when i got home sometime. it wont go near your 6000, but itll be interestng to see. i cant remember what i scored on 3dmark2k1
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:16
Cool, thanks. I'd also be curious to know what the lowest frame rate displayed during the Nature demo comes out to be.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:28
5900 with 256 megs of RAM. The video card alone was $500.00
I thought you where holding out on buying a new video card until Doom 3 was released ? What made you change your mind ? (though I am pretty sure that Doom 3 WILL run on that card of yours!
)
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:34
What made you change your mind ?
The movies for Half Life 2, which is due out pretty soon IIRC. (Anyone hear any word?)
I am pretty sure that Doom 3 WILL run on that card of yours!
Hearing that it was the official "Doom3" card at QuakeCon helped me decide to do it now instead of waiting.
I'm glad I did the upgrade now instead of waiting, because of all the little technical details I needed to get ironed out. Now, when HL2 comes out, it will be a simple case of install and play, instead of frantically trying to get my upgrades working.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:41
The movies for Half Life 2, which is due out pretty soon IIRC. (Anyone hear any word?)
Did you see that
HL2 600+Mb Demo Trailer movie ? It's INSANE!
Last I heard it's still on schedule, to be released at the very end of september.
Hearing that it was the official "Doom3" card at QuakeCon helped me decide to do it now instead of waiting.
Excellent point.
On a side note, how much noise does the cooler on that card make ? The first FX card were extremely noisy ; did they find a way to (more or less) fix that ?
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:47
Did you see that HL2 600+Mb Demo Trailer movie ? It's INSANE!
The biggest one I've seen was the one that was "Cammed" at E3. Kinda fuzzy, with a Gamespy logo watermarked in the corner. If it's a high-rez, clean, non-cammed version of the trailer I'd like to find it. Got a download link?
Although the cammed version was fun... I really liked hearing the commentary by the presenter and the audience. There are some real gems in there...
"Will this run on my 486?"
"Didn't think the demo would be complete without a giant pachinko machine."
"Eff... You..."
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:49
Ah you edited the post to include the link. Thank you!
Last I heard it's still on schedule, to be released at the very end of september.
<burns>Eeeexcellent...</burns>
On a side note, how much noise does the cooler on that card make ? The first FX card were extremely noisy ; did they find a way to (more or less) fix that ?
It's reasonable. I don't know if it's a fixed version or if it's a noisy one, but I get more sound out of the CPU cooler and case fans than out of that card.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:51
Yeah, that was the one I meant ! A really big mouth-watering experience if I ever saw one !
I don't play that many games anymore because I can't find the time (I still have to finish Soldier Of Fortune 2), but for HL2 I'll MAKE time!
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 15:55
I don't know if it's a fixed version or if it's a noisy one, but I get more sound out of the CPU cooler and case fans than out of that card.
Then I'm sure it's a fixed version. The early versions were not very stable and they made a noise like vacuum cleaner. Very annoying. Glad to hear they were able to solve it. I'm sure it wasn't the only reason for the drop back in sales, but it must have had something to do with it. They got really bad publicity because of it.
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 17:44
Steam was sending out the raw video (non-cammed) for various sections of the gameplay. Is this 500MB you posted a compilation of all the raw videos or just a really high res version of the cammed video?
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 17:48
High rez version of the cammed video.
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 18:25
FilePlanet has a video not shown on the Gamespy video. Cool tunnel video with some different flying bugs.
Link
Posted by: drakino
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 20:02
Hearing that it was the official "Doom3" card at QuakeCon helped me decide to do it now instead of waiting.
Well, NVidia was the official sponsor of QuakeCon 2003, while ATI was for QuakeCon 2002. And NVidia was in 2001, etc... All it means is one company was willing to pay more then the other. The game is going to run fine on any high end card, since it would be suicide for a game company to only support one brand of video card these days.
Though, from the looks of it, the game will run fine at normal settings. We will all have to wait on much faster systems to get a chance to play Doom 3 at max settings and keep framerates around 60fps. This engine scales very well.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 20:07
FilePlanet has a video not shown on the Gamespy video. Cool tunnel video with some different flying bugs.
Yup, got that one. Nifty.
Posted by: Jerz
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 20:30
I scored a 5668.
Those games look pretty incredible by the way.
Posted by: lectric
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 21:34
Here is a bittorrent link page with several of the demos available. I can usually get around 360k/s using
bt.
Posted by: RobotCaleb
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 22:42
i got about 9 as a low on nature
Posted by: RobotCaleb
Re: CPU temp? - 25/08/2003 22:44
it doesnt say there
512 ddr, synced speed with my mobo (334mhz)
Posted by: cmtempeg
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 07:48
Eh cool beans.
I got the model just below that (BFG 5900/128MB--not the ultra) for $300 from outpost.com. I just couldn't justify the extra 200 bucks for the Ultra, maybe I'll overclock
.
I chose BFG because my Hercules GF2 GTS crapped out on me 2 months outside the 3 year warranty cutoff! Not happening again...
I'm unfortunately unable to use my new card yet as my puter
blow'd up.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 08:08
I scored a 5668.
Not bad! What system specs?
Those games look pretty incredible by the way.
Yeah, too bad they're not real games! Although if you look at the help file (installed in an HTML folder tree under the main program) they describe how the various scenes test the card. For example, explaining that the gal's hair in the Troll's Lair demo is not only individual polygons, but it's anisotropically lit, too.
Me, I'd be happy if I could just get a separate EXE of the Nature demo that I could move the camera around in myself.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 08:12
i got about 9 as a low on nature
Not bad at all, there's really not much difference between 9 and 11 to the eye.
One guy on the Futuremark forums got a total score in the 8000's. He did it by watercooling and overclocking everything including the GPU. Cuh-razy.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 08:16
I just couldn't justify the extra 200 bucks for the Ultra,
I did, because I knew that these new games would really be pumping lots of textures to the card and I needed all the RAM I could get. Didn't want any hitching or slowdowns while the engine transferred textures from RAM to card during gameplay.
Posted by: Jerz
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 08:22
Not bad! What system specs?
PIV 3.0GHZ with Hyperthreading, 1gig of ram (not sure which brand I wasn't happy getting the doa corsair so I opted for whatever was at Microcenter), ATI 9800pro, Gigabyt 8knxp-ultra mobo.
Yeah, too bad they're not real games!
Damn, no kidding... It was during trolls one during the cpu test is when I noticed a little hesitation. The part where they're fighting and the girl walks in; Pretty incredible.
Me, I'd be happy if I could just get a separate EXE of the Nature demo that I could move the camera around in myself.
Yes, there is a lot going on there with the trees and grass blowing in the wind and the running water. I was amazed.
Too bad I don't play the 3d games but it looks like I may have to start.
Posted by: Folsom
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 18:31
I'm wondering if the physics engine in HL2 is going to dominate over the graphics. If everything affects everything else, I think the physics computations will add up quickly.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 20:38
I'm sure that's something they're carefully play-tuning. And I'm sure their physics engine has safeguards in place to prevent runaway iterative calculations. They'll make sure it works right.
Posted by: drakino
Re: CPU temp? - 26/08/2003 22:25
Most physics engines I have seen will intentionally start dropping the quality of their calculations to ensure the CPU time it needs dosen't subtract from everything else. UT2K3 actually has a low/medium/high setting that affects the non necessary ragdoll deaths.
Aparently id is going to be touting their physics engine in Doom 3. Based on their Quakecon presentation, this is part of the delay, as it was rewritten from scratch this year. They said something about it handling 100 boxes stacked on top of each other. They unfortunatly didn't show anything though to indicate how processor intensive that was.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: CPU temp? - 27/08/2003 05:52
They said something about it handling 100 boxes stacked on top of each other
They unfortunatly didn't show anything though to indicate how processor intensive that was.
Or maybe they were trying to say it requires 100 boxes stacked on top of each other to run Doom 3.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 11/09/2003 02:29
What made you change your mind ?
The movies for Half Life 2, which is due out pretty soon IIRC. (Anyone hear any word?)
Hey Tony, a article popped up on
Anandtech today, with some info on what card is the best to play the forthcoming Half-Life 2 game on.
You're not going to like their conclusion...
Posted by: BartDG
Re: CPU temp? - 11/09/2003 02:34
Oops...guess I should have posted that under the HL2 benchmark topic that Drakino has posted.