Roll Call: Wireless Networking

Posted by: jmwking

Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 13:36

This board has the best, most thoughtful collection of knowledgeable people I know of. And that covers geek and non-geek knowledge: after all, where else can you go to learn how to smuggle toilets from Canada, or harass neighbors with or without RC cars, or hear more about spiders than most of us ever wanted to know?

I'm looking to get into wireless networking, both at work and at home. I've read reviews, and I've just finished plowing (ploughing?) through this bbs' postings over the last year without finding any sort of consensus, other than that lots of people like the Linksys WET11 bridge and using wireless in your car to automatically open your garage door is way cool.

So, I thought I'd see if I could flatter you all into compiling your thoughts and real world experiences for posterity.

If you are currently using wireless, what makes/models of devices are you using? Did you find incompatibilities between various devices? Was there anything unusual about your setup (i.e., line of sight throughout your house)? How did you secure it (has it been broken into)? What sort of range and interference have you seen (physical or rf)? And, of course, anything else, fact or opinion, you'd like to add.

Many thanks,

-jk
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 13:45

I want to post this because I know I will lose the URL someday if I want to buy another one...

Micro Plus 802.11b Access Point - This is the best AP I have owned (and I have owned many). It reaches the furthest and I never have to reboot it. Plus, being $30 doesn't hurt either. Goofy USB configuration though.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 13:46

I have two WaveLAN/Lucent/Orinoco PCMCIA cards, neither in use right now, but both working properly until I didn't need them anymore, one in a WinBook laptop, one in a minitower case running OpenBSD. I also have a clamshell iBook running MacOS X with its optional WiFi. Recently I got a cheap AP that Robricc recommended and it works great. Prior to that I was working in ad-hoc mode with my OpenBSD machine routing between the wireless and wired LANs (not to mention to the internet).

I've never had a problem with any of it, other than minor configuration issues. I don't bother with WAP, since it's just a delaying tactic and increases configuration headaches. I just try to secure my machines as well as possible. I've never been broken into via the wireless (once when I was running redhat on my router someone came in over the internet, but that was unrelated), but, then, most of my neighbors are over 80.
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:00

This Belkin 802.11g AP was the absolute worst. Had to be rebooted daily and range sucked. Expensive.

SMC SMC2655W 802.11b AP - Good stability, but range is probably the worst I have ever experienced. Got so hot it left a black mark on my wall. Previous version of same model number works great (good range/stability). PoE adapter (seems to be) only available for previous version which uses a different AC adapter. That is lame.

D-Link DI-714P+ 802.11b+ Router - Poor support for my Orinoco cards. Both products bear the "Wi-Fi Certified" logo but they don't play well together. I have to assume it's D-Link's fault since the Orinocos work with every other AP. Email back and fourth to upper-level D-Link tech support got me nowhere.

I've had a Linksys WAP11 just plain die on me after about 2 weeks of being on 24/7. Still, I would buy Linksys over D-Link anyday.
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:09

Siemens SpeedStream 2624 Is probably the best wireless router I have owned. It worked great until I decided to flash it to the latest firmware (no particular reason). It has been dead ever since.

SMC SMC7004AWBR 802.11b Router - I had an early version of this. It had to be rebooted every-so-often because it overheated. The bottom of it was metal. You could fry an egg on it. I have a few friends with the same one, only a newer design. They report no problem.
Posted by: ricin

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:11

Do you know for sure if the bridging functionality works properly? More specifically, with a WET11? I've been looking for a cheap AP that supports bridging.

I guess I could just buy two of those. Hmm...
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:24

For wireless clients, you can't go wrong with Orinoco (Avaya, Proxim, Agere, Lucent, whatever their name is this week, etc.) products.

Currently my laptop is running a Dell TrueMobile 802.11b mini pci card (I think it's this one). It is based on/made by Orinoco, so Netstumbler works with it.

This week I bought the Dell TrueMobile 1300 mini pci card. This is 802.11g and only $49 - 10% so it's a good deal. It is not made by Orinoco. I have not received it yet.

For desktops that need wireless, I use the Orinoco USB Gold. I don't know if they sell it anymore, but I have plenty.

The card in the USB Gold is just the Orinoco Gold PCMCIA card. So, those work well too.

I have also used a D-Link 802.11a PCI card paired with a D-Link DWL-5000AP. Despite my dislike for D-Link wireless products, this seemed to work well once you got it configured properly. It was very fast.
Posted by: lectric

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:25

This Belkin 802.11g AP was the absolute worst
I couldn't agree more. Total worthless crap. It doesn't get port forwarding right.
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:29

Do you know for sure if the bridging functionality works properly?
If you're talking about the Micro Plus AP, I have never tested in bridge mode. I made a post about this Mitsumi AP a couple weeks back that does bridge with anything. I have one, but I have not yet powered it up. I am determining how to stuff it into a Rio Receiver at the moment.

Here's the thread. There is verification of it bridging with another brand's AP.
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:30

Since you know about this stuff how you get a SMC 2652W Acess point to act as a wireless thing for a empeg

Other wireless stuff is a apple with an airport card and a d-link DI-624 router
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:38

I am not sure what the configuration option are for that. It may not support being an AP Client. The Mitsumi adapter mentioned above seems to do whatyou want.
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:49

yeah but i got the smc one sat next to me
Posted by: jmwking

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 14:55

Rob,

Nice collection of links - Wow!

Thanks much for playing along.

-jk
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 15:04

Thanks much for playing along.
No problem!

I have a few more that I have to dig-up because I have forgotten model numbers.

Oh yeah...
I've also had a few of these Microsoft Wireless kits. The one linked is bundled with the USB client adapter, but there is also a PCMCIA bundle. I think the router was very good. Even though the antenna is very short, it seems to have good range. The PCMCIA and USB adapters were nothing special. They worked fine. I picked up these bundles at Target last fall. They were marked $179.99 on the shelf but rang-up for $99.99. This was a mind-blowingly good deal at the time. I cleaned them out.

I heard that there is a new version of this (maybe 802.11g) and it apparently sucks. I have not seen it though.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 16:53

I've got a whole bunch of Lucent/Orinoco gear which I've retired now. I'm now using Buffalo 802.11g equipment.

It all eems to work quite nicely apart from the fact that WDS doesn't work with WPA. It's a big problem apparently not just for Buffalo. I can get WDS to work fine but I have to use WEP instead which I'd rather not do. So at the moment I'm trying to get WPA to work properly under Linux and use to fake WDS.

Most of the 802.11g equipment is either a Intersil/Harris design or a Broadcom design and both seem to be fine with each other.

The Intersil/Harris cards are supported under Linux. The driver is a little flakey still but it does work. WPA doesn't work yet but it's doable apparently. The Broadcom equipment however will not work at all under Linux as Broadcom refuse to release any details on how to program the chipset.

Linksys equipment is also Broadcom based. It's the Broadcom APs that use Linux and is the cause of the outcry as they've modified the kernel but not released the changes and refuse to.
Posted by: ineedcolor

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 17:03

I have a WET 11 hooked up to my Audiotron and a WPC 11 in my laptop...both work like champs now that the initial tweeking has been done. I am very happy with my Linksys BEFW11S4 wireless router/switch as well All three work great in the concrete cube of an apartment I live in
Posted by: Dignan

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 16/10/2003 17:32

I've simply got an all-Linksys b wireless network going. Most of my network is wired, but where it isn't, I've got a Linksys product. The reasons aren't good, just that I like the brand, the admin is great, and they all work as advertised. That said, here's what I've got:

BEFW11S4 - not used to make up my network, simply to route the cable modem into the switch that most of my computers are connected to.

WUSB11 - for a computer that isn't close to a wall jack. I like this because it's easy to install and remove, and the chord makes it easy to extend for better reception if there's a problem.

WET11 - I use this bridge for my Tivo.

I probably could have done better for price with other products, but it's easy to pick these up at Best Buy, which has decent prices in comparison to the internet, and the router was on sale for cheaper than I could find online. Anyway, that's my setup.
Posted by: frog51

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 02:01

I only use Cisco Aironet and Symbol kit - for range and resilience they do outperform every other piece of kit I have tested. Their prices are obviously a little higher (a few hundreds rather than sub-one hundred) but they are the market leaders, which is why Walmart, Sainsburys, British Airways etc use them.

From a 100mW 3dB omni-directional antenna fitted to an Aironet access point in a metal comms cage in a metal aircraft hanger at Blackpool airport, I got a range of over 1 mile using a laptop PCMCIA card with 2" antenna.

Using Symbol kit with directional 6dB Huber Suhner patch antennas I have got successful connectivity at 5.5 Mb/s at over 6 miles.

I have had longer distances with wierd antennas, but they probably don't meet licencing regs.

Of the more recent kit, Symbol appear to be the most resistant to interference (microwaves, bluetooth, etc) and for mobile Voice-over-IP, their kit is superb, managing access point handovers seamlessly, but Cisco's kit is well supported by their management utilities.
Posted by: jmwking

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 08:59

From a 100mW 3dB omni-directional antenna fitted to an Aironet access point in a metal comms cage in a metal aircraft hanger at Blackpool airport, I got a range of over 1 mile using a laptop PCMCIA card with 2" antenna.

Using Symbol kit with directional 6dB Huber Suhner patch antennas I have got successful connectivity at 5.5 Mb/s at over 6 miles.

I have had longer distances with wierd antennas, but they probably don't meet licencing regs.
Those are pretty impresive ranges. How did you secure it, since you also presumably have greater range for hackers...

-jk
Posted by: frog51

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 09:32

Just firewall the wireless LAN off from everything else, and terminate the WLAN VPN in a DMZ. Cisco's VPN concentrator seems to work pretty well. Typically use either IPSec or RADIUS with SecuRemote tokens.

May not be cost effective for small installations...
Posted by: jmwking

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 09:36

May not be cost effective for small installations.
Indeed. (Sigh.) Why is all the cool stuff so expensive? Boys and toys, etc.

-jk
Posted by: frog51

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 09:46

Yes, I was upset when I went up to Crieff Hydro for a long weekend with in-laws and brothers family etc. While the girls were off having beauty treatments we wanted to go hovercraft racing, until it turned out that the afternoon was going to cost £500. If there had been 10 of us, we could have managed it I guess.

Had to settle for quad biking through forests, streams and a quarry - which was still pretty good fun.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 09:54

The fact that said cheap AP needs a Windows configurator is annoying. The sad thing is I don't have time for another project.

What I want is to chuck a couple of the Mitsumis at someone and get back a command line config tool in return.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 10:58

I didn't really check, but once you get it set up initially, you can use SNMP to manage it. It's possible that you might be able to do it all via SNMP.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 11:13

I saw a UDP stream on port 15135 (I think) being used to configure it, and it didn't looku like SNMP. We are talking about the Wavit11 from overstock, right?

If I can configure it once and then use SNMP that will work for my purposes.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 11:24

Nope. The Micro Plus. The same one Rob talks about in the post just before mine. However, to be honest, I've not really determined that it's SNMP. That's just what their config tool calls itself, and I don't see any reason they'd lie.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 11:27

Rob posted the link to the Wavits and I ASSumed that was what was being talkeed about instead of looking.

Oh well.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 11:41

He and I linked to the same page. I don't see anything there about Wavits or overstock, nor do I remember anything like that on the box or in the manual. It's possible that it's the same device, but I have no way to know.

Edit: Oh. I found the Wavit11. It's definitely not the same thing I'm talking about, the Micro Plus AP.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 11:46

No, it's not the same thing at all. Rob previously linked to the Wavit deal. Or maybe it was after the deal for these, but they aren't the same at all.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 12:29

In reply to:


Why is all the cool stuff so expensive?


Well, if you just need the IPSec VPN, use any old (as in 386+) PC and freeBSD/OpenBSD...
Posted by: drakino

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 13:37

and using wireless in your car to automatically open your garage door is way cool.
Wait, did I miss the info on how to do this? I'd love to have this setup in my new place.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 13:45

julf talked about using (i think ssh) when the wireless associated with his home AP to open the garage door.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 17/10/2003 13:49

Well... It's not impossible to do. Bit of a hassle to bolt on 802.11* support though.

The "quick" way would to be to find a cheapo PC somewhere and have it run a web server. Write a CGI script which toggles one of the printer port lines which signals the door mechanism to cycle. You'll need something on the empeg or a PDA that accesses the webserver after authenticating properly.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 02:47

Well, an easier way is to use an X10 switch - and as I already have a server talking X10, that's the way I'm going. Despite X10 being one of the most awful protocols I've seen since X400....

Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 04:50

Yeah. There's that as well A universal module which is basically an X10 controller relay modules would do it.

I know what you mean about the X10 protocol being bad. I'm designing an X10 <-> Ethernet gateway for a company at the moment and I've had to enjoy doing X10 at low levels...
Posted by: Daria

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 09:43

So uh, is there any security?
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 10:23

I'm designing an X10 <-> Ethernet gateway
Sign me up for one

Hmm... Would you have any pointers to good documentation on how features like "preset dim" and extended commands are supposed to work?
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 15:55

Security? If you're talking about the thing I'm making then no, there isn't particularly great security. It just checks a plaintext password. The microprocessor I'm using has extremely limited RAM so I can't do anything too ambitious regarding encryption.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 18/10/2003 15:57

I've not finished it yet! I've got the X10 side working fine. Getting the ethernet portion working reliablely is another thing. The RTL chip I'm using is apparently a NE2000 clone but there are quite a few differences and Realtek aren't too hot on documenting them it seems... Nearly got it though.

I've got the docs for X10 extended commands somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 02:43

I've got the X10 side working fine. Getting the ethernet portion working reliablely is another thing.
Well, I have kind of the opposite problem
I'm involved with these guys: www.violasystems.com so I use their nifty little box for the ethernet part.
NE2000 clone but there are quite a few differences and Realtek aren't too hot on documenting them it seems...

Ouch. Yes. Always amazes me. There aren't that many different ways of doing a NE2000, and still some people consider their aberrations "proprietary secrets"

I've got the docs for X10 extended commands somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Well it's especially the "preset dim" stuff that is driving me crazy. Or *any* way to *reliably* dim up from 0 to a *pre-defined* amount.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 04:26

Well, I have kind of the opposite problem
I'm involved with these guys: www.violasystems.com so I use their nifty little box for the ethernet part.
Neat. They seem a lot more powerful than the Cypress PSoC chip I'm using. The fact they've got ethernet already working is a bonus

Well it's especially the "preset dim" stuff that is driving me crazy. Or *any* way to *reliably* dim up from 0 to a *pre-defined* amount.
Preset dim is actually obsolete. It's been replaced by the direct dim extended command. Nothing really apart from the DIN rail lamp modules understands direct dim or even preset dim however. The normal modules only support the basic command set so you're kind of stuck if you're using those. You have to do the turn-on-and-dim-down-in-successive-commands trick.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 05:04

Neat. They seem a lot more powerful than the Cypress PSoC chip I'm using.
Yes, Viola is using a Motorola Coldfire.
The fact they've got ethernet already working is a bonus
Should be - the chief technical guy wrote the TCP/IP stack
I actually got him to open source it.
Preset dim is actually obsolete. It's been replaced by the direct dim extended command. Nothing really apart from the DIN rail lamp modules understands direct dim or even preset dim however. The normal modules only support the basic command set so you're kind of stuck if you're using those.
Well, I do have a bunch of the DIN dimmers (only ones capable of riving halogens), but I also have a bunch of "stupid" Marmitek LW11's
You have to do the turn-on-and-dim-down-in-successive-commands trick.
And that just doesn't work in my application, where I need to be able to dim up the lights slowly from 0.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 05:19

And that just doesn't work in my application, where I need to be able to dim up the lights slowly from 0.
Umm... There's a kludge you can do to get around this. If you dim the module down to 0% and leave it there then can do the dim up from 0% thing... Does mean you can't really use on/off though as you'll need to do the dim down to 0% each time.

If the lamp module is at 0% already then it will ignore the ON command as it's already on
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 11:01

Umm... There's a kludge you can do to get around this.
I know - that's how I do it at the moment. But apart from being very unreliable (and I got some rather nasty unlinear behaviour that led me to think presets were playing into it), it doesn't work very well if you occasionally need to turn the light on/off manually from the switch.

The really strange thing about the newer Marmitek stuff is that the manual for the LWM1 "mini-module" states "Two-way X-10: transmits the set dimmer level to other LWM1, LD11 and LW 11modules (set to the same HouseCode and UnitCode)." So somehow that would imply that the LW11 can track absolute dim settings.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 19/10/2003 11:32

Hmm... The LW11 might actually support extended commands. The manual isn't particularly useful but does look like it's based on a LD11. I'll have to wire up one of them and have a look.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 02:26

Have you actually found any software for Linux that transmits extended codes correctly?
Posted by: frog51

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 03:33

>Those are pretty impresive ranges.

Just seen a superb set of tests showing 35 km usable range from 100mW 802.11b. Our guy managed to get into the target network, although the network admins thought 128bit WEP and hiding of SSID broadcasts would be useful

Heh - what a great job!
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 03:55

Nope. I've not really looked for it however.
To transmit extended codes from your computer, you must either have an XM10 or a HomeVision. The TW523 and other old ones don't support extended codes and won't work.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 04:14

To transmit extended codes from your computer, you must either have an XM10 or a HomeVision
Well, I have the CM11, and I think it's pretty much an XM10 with RS232 instead of TTL.
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 06:04

Sort of. The CM11/12 does support extended codes but the interface and protocol it uses is totally different than the XM10. The CM11/12 has actually got some intelligence inside it and decodes the X10 signal whilst the XM10 makes you do all the X10 decoding yourself.

I'll send you the CM11 protocol and the X10 extended commands bits.
Posted by: robricc

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 09:28

The Broadcom equipment however will not work at all under Linux as Broadcom refuse to release any details on how to program the chipset.
Have you seen this?
Posted by: tman

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 10:03

Interesting. Would have prefered an open source driver as this will taint the kernel but it's better than nothing. Broadcom aren't doing themselves any favours by refusing to release any information on their new chipsets.
I've bought an Intersil/Harris 802.11g card anyway The driver is a bit unstable at the moment but it's being actively worked on.
Posted by: drakino

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 10:47

Interesting. Would have prefered an open source driver as this will taint the kernel but it's better than nothing. Broadcom aren't doing themselves any favours by refusing to release any information on their new chipsets.
And this still does me no good with my desire to run something like Kismet on my Powerbook. Aparently the Airport Extreme cards use a Broadcom chipset.
Posted by: julf

Re: Roll Call: Wireless Networking - 20/10/2003 12:16

The CM11/12 does support extended codes but the interface and protocol it uses is totally different than the XM10.
Ahh yes. Was misled by the similarity of external appearance and specs.

The CM11/12 has actually got some intelligence inside
Not sure that's always a good thing
I'll send you the CM11 protocol and the X10 extended commands bits.
Got it! Thanks! Much appreciated! Now off to do some serial port twiddling...