14 Guitar notes

Posted by: mlord

14 Guitar notes - 09/01/2004 09:53

Yes, another absurd local geocache:


The music is made up of distorted single-line electric guitar improvisations over a clean chorus/delay backing track. Although the improvisations themselves do not repeat, there is a distinct melody containing 14 notes that repeats twice.

Identify those 14 notes, in sequence.

This would be easy, had I any musical knowledge whatsoever!

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Posted by: Jerz

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 09/01/2004 09:59

can't seem to open the file
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 09/01/2004 10:00

I think he meant .mp3 and not .jpg.
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 09/01/2004 10:06

Ooops.. fixed.

Cheers
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 10/01/2004 22:21

Mmm... lots of downloaders, but so far no help with the notes.. darn!
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 01:56

Oh, sorry it took me so long. I read the message while at work and didn't remember to download the file when I got home. The bump was all I needed.

The melody repeats twice, once at 00:49 and once at 01:55. The notes are: 

A     B    F#   F#(Octave)



G#   D#    E



D#    B    G#    C



F#    A    G#
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:01

Mmm.. here's some more information:
The musical key of the melody is the first letter (only one valid possibility) of
one of the directional headings North, East, South, West. (E??)

There are 9th notes in the secret melody. Treat these as a major second off
the root note one octave up.

They are the highest notes in the scale and should be easy to discern.

The scale used in the secret melody is the major scale (in the key discussed above) also known as Ionian mode.
Does any of that change anything, notes-wise?

Lastly, these Notes must eventually map into a set of coordinates, some of the digits of which are KNOWN (or "given"):

The first seven notes: 45 29.???
The second seven: 75 3?.???

So, letmesee: if the first note(4) is "A", then the first note of the second seven has to be three notes higher (7) , which is "D". Good.

And the second note of each half (5 for both) should be one higher than "A", which it is ("B"). So far, so good.

But the F# F#(octave) confuses me slightly, as it should map to "29", I think.
Assuming that's okay anyway, I get 45 29.378 and 75 36.243 as the coordinates. But the "36" looks unlikely -- I was expecting a smaller value than "6" in that digit.

Do the extra clues make a difference to your ear now?

Thanks Tony!

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:21

Let's see. The notes in E Maj. are:

E F# G# A B C# D#

Which leads us to:

452?371
753?243

That Octave F# would be known as a 9th note, but I don't really follow the clue.

Also, you'll notice the C doesn't fall into the scale he's using. Maybe that one was misheard. (I don't really have a good ear, so I'm not going to venture a guess.) Also, for completeness' sake, C is the only note between B and C#; that is, there's no such thing as B#. (Those of you who know why that's not 100% true, keep it to yourselves; that information isn't going to help here.)
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:23

What about the other seven notes, Bitt?

EDIT: nevermind, I just clued in to what you were saying.

I think the clue says to treat the F#(octave) the same as F#, or as a "2" in this case. Does that make sense to anyone who actually knows anything about notes notations? (like Bitt or Tony or..)

Thanks!
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:25

I don't understand. I listed 14 answers, including 2 I-don't-knows. There are only seven notes in the major scale. Then they just repeat themselves in different octaves in the same order.

You'll sometimes hear of 2nd notes in a higher octave referred to as 9th notes (also 4th and 11th).
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:31

That makes sense, but it's too obvious to me. A 9th is a 2nd. But maybe he's just being ultra-clear.
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:33

>That Octave F# would be known as a 9th note, but I don't really follow the clue.

Ah.. in otherwords, just keep numbering into the next octave, so the "F# octave" would be "9" in this case. 
E F G A B C D E F

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:48

Well, yes and no. I suppose it doesn't make any difference to the puzzle, but you never refer to an 8th note or a 10th note. I've never heard of anyone referring to anything but a 9th and 11th above 7th, and then only in certain circumstances. But that's the idea, at least.
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 10:55

For this puzzle, it is GIVEN that the first group of numbers are 45 29.???, so the F#octave thingie has to map to a "9" in whatever cipher is used here. so that cipher makes sense, at least that far.

But I'm still getting in trouble with the second group of notes -- something is not quite right there. The solution of "75 36.243", which is what the cipher thus far might suggest, is wrong (puts things in a very very wrong location).

So the "C" note is strange, and I suspect the note after it is also incorrect. But if the "C" were really an "E", and the note immediately after it were a "F#octave", then we would get 75 31.943, which is EXTREMELY plausible in real life.

But.. are those two notes plausible musically?

Cheers
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 12:26

If you are in doubt about the validity of the notes, please load up the Windows software called "Transcribe". You can open the MP3 directly in the software. It performs a spectral analysis of the selected region of audio and graphs it against an on-screen MIDI keyboard. You can click on the individual keys on this keyboard and hear the MIDI note as you check it against the wave audio source.

I double checked the notes, but there's always the chance I was wrong.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 12:47

I just triple checked, and I think that C is actually an E. Sorry about that.
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 12:56

Ahhh.. good. And the F# that follows it is actually F#(octave), right?

Thanks!
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 13:35

Correct, it's the higher of the two F#'s played in the melody. Didn't realize the octave counted as a position in a cypher when I first transcribed it (you didn't tell us that bit at first. ), so the only reason I noted that it was an octave at all was because it immediately followed another F#.
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 13:54

Canucks must have the best caches...around here they're more like, "go look under the slide at the park."
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 14:03

Well.. there are some very fun caches around here. This is Ottawa, Canada, home to more puzzle caches per square kilometre than probably anywhere else. Personally, I'd prefer to have a LOT more "normal" caches here to visit, but most locals only put out 3hour+ complex puzzle hunts these days, so that's what we're stuck with now. Many are fun, but most are just tedious. All are good exercise, at least.

Cheers!
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 14:07

Thanks Tony (and Bitt).

Here is the link for the Ionian Tusk of the Daywalker geocache itself.

Cheers
Posted by: russmeister

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 14:12

And that really stinks, too. The best cache I've done so far is a 5 stage cache that actually asked questions like "Who found the first Geocache?" Unfortunately there aren't many creative geocache depositors around this area. Bummer.
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 14:15

Well... find a spare few days and come and visit! We've got room here for anyone who'd like to drop by and go caching for a few days. Hundreds upon hundreds of caches in the area, at least half (or more) of which are of the non-vanilla varieties!

Cheers
Posted by: russmeister

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 11/01/2004 14:30

Thanks for the offer but I don't see that happening anytime soon! My vacation consists of a trip to France this summer for 2 weeks (church mission trip) so it's doubtful that I'll have the time or the money. Maybe after the cincy meet this year I'll plan on taking a few extra days to enjoy some geocaching in that area.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 08:27

I can't believe I was away for this one! I'd have loved to help out, but I trust you have it all resolved by now?
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 08:40

but you never refer to an 8th note or a 10th note. I've never heard of anyone referring to anything but a 9th and 11th above 7th.
[Useless Music Theory]
To be completely technical, this really depends on the terms you're using. If you are simply talking about "intervals" (the distance between two notes) then there's nothing wrong with "8th" or "10th", but (as you point out) this really isn't the information people are trying to get across.

When speaking about "chords", however, 8th and 10th make no sense because you'd just use the numbering from the first octave. The difference between a 2nd and a 9th chord is that a 9h implies that a 3rd 5th and 7th are also present in the chord (the key note being the 7th, as any chord implies the 3rd and 5th). An 11th also implies the 7th as well as the 9th preceding it (though it's not strictly necessary). A 13th is another chord I see sometimes, BTW.

Practically the way this works out is that if I see a 2nd chord (although to be completely technical, this isn't really a chord but a suspension), I’ll just play a regular chord with the 2nd added. If I see a ninth, then I’ll add the second, but also a seventh as it’s implied.
[/Useless Music Theory]
I don’t believe any of this relates to the task at hand, however. I just like to talk about music theory.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 09:47

Right, but most of the time I see them it's as a Eadd9 or Esus2. The difference between those two chords is whether or not the 3rd exists, but they still always use the different terminology for the 2nd. I don't know why.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 10:07

Right, but most of the time I see them it's as a Eadd9 or Esus2. The difference between those two chords is whether or not the 3rd exists, but they still always use the different terminology for the 2nd. I don't know why.
 Well actually when it’s a Esus2, playing the 3rd is optional. Most of the times the reason you don’t play it on a guitar is because you don’t have enough strings. The same is true of an Esus4.

The reason for the change in terminology (“sus” vs” add”) is that by definition, chords are spelled in terms of thirds (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15). A “standard” chord includes 1, 3, & 5, and then you start getting other notes in as you add the 7th. As I mentioned before, technically as you add in each note you also add in the thirds before it as well (so a 15th would have 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, & 13 as well), though they’re not always played. So “add” means to add onto the chord.

“Sus” means that it really isn’t part of the chord, but that it’s “suspended” from a previous chord. Or at least that’s how it started out. If you look back at Bach’s music you’ll see suspensions all over the place, but they’re never treated as part of the chord. They are held over from previous chords and resolved at some point into the new chord. A sus4 is generally resolved to the 3 that it is pulling toward. The sus2 has a less obvious resolution, since it is a whole step away from both the 1 and the 3.

As I said, suspensions were originally holdovers from previous chords, but in modern music we use these as simply part of the chords. If a guitarist or keyboardist is smart he or she will use this information to try and precede a “sus” chord with one that has the same note so that it really does feel like a suspension, but it’s no longer a real necessity.

So I hope that clears it up a bit. (And I think I’m pretty accurate about all of this, but it’s been awhile so I take no responsibility for any errors in my descriptions!)
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 10:12

That's good info I was unaware of. I needed to take more music theory classes in school than I did.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 11:54

Agreed, that is very interesting. I always thought "Suspended" specifically meant that the third was suspended from the current chord and replaced with either the 2nd or the 4th. My fault for being a guitar player instead of a keyboardist.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:09

Here is the link for the Ionian Tusk of the Daywalker geocache itself.
Okay, that's just disturbing. You Canadians are weird.

How about this, though. What other places in the world can we find interesting musical cyphers, or other stuff where the notes come from something patterned or numerical (rather than straight from a musician's imagination)?

I can't think of many. There's a Bela Fleck piece called "UFO Tofu" where he tries to do some musical palindrones (the title of the piece is a palindrone). Anyone else?
Posted by: peter

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:17

How about this, though. What other places in the world can we find interesting musical cyphers, or other stuff where the notes come from something patterned or numerical (rather than straight from a musician's imagination)?
Well, GEB is full of that sort of stuff, but I'm sure you knew that...

Peter
Posted by: tonyc

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:19

I can't think of many. There's a Bela Fleck piece called "UFO Tofu" where he tries to do some musical palindrones (the title of the piece is a palindrone). Anyone else?
I think the melodies in ELO's "Fire on HIgh" are supposed to be reversible. There's even some backwards speech in the beginning that tells the listener "The music is reversible... turn back, turn back" or something like that.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:29

Holst's The Planets septology is supposed to be based on the apparent motions of the respective planets.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:35

YYZ? Oh, Rush is Canadian.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:37

Oh, and Bach did write a piece with a melody based on his name (using "Bb" for H), which is no simple feat being as that puts all four notes as half steps from one another.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:37

Oh yeah, duh, the morse-code thing.

Anything else?
Posted by: tonyc

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 12:53

Oh, and Bach did write a piece with a melody based on his name (using "Bb" for H), which is no simple feat being as that puts all four notes as half steps from one another.
Seems to me H should have been represented as G#.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 13:52

As I remember it (being a couple if years since college) "H" was not an unheard of representation for Bb. I suppose since Bb is the "first" flat and therefore very typical it made a sense. If I were writing a piece with the noetes A B C and ?, I certainly would have picked G#, since then you'd be easily in the key of a harmonic minor.
Posted by: tonyc

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 14:02

Ah, ok, I only took beginner's music theory at Penn State, so I didn't know "H" was typically used to indicate Bb. I was just thinking like a comp. sci. guy, as in "the letter G plus one letter is H, so the note H should equivalent be G plus a half step."
Posted by: mlord

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 14:09

Yup, all taken care of. I'll test the "solution" in a few weeks when some friends come to visit.

Cheers!
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 14:23

is it just me, or is Gustav Holst's Mars : The Bringer of War the music in world 8 of Super Mario 3?
also, not the motions of the planets, if this site has anything accurate on it.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 14:33

s it just me, or is Gustav Holst's Mars : The Bringer of War the music in world 8 of Super Mario 3?
It is the music John Williams borrowed from/ was inspired by for the Star Wars theme.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 14:35

imperial death march?
i believe that and the star wars theme are two completely different animals
Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 15:09

Not just the imperial death march, though certainly not the first notes everyone regards as the theme. I should have stated more "the music of Star Wars", with the imperial death march being an obvious example. There are other, more subtle instances, however. I'm pretty sure that JW had no problem admitting to the inspiration.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 12/01/2004 21:09

I can't think of many. There's a Bela Fleck piece called "UFO Tofu" where he tries to do some musical palindrones

Here I was all set to congratulate you for being the first person to use the really interesting word "palindrome" (BTW, it's spelled with an "m" not an "n") on the bbs, but somebody beat you to it (and spelled it right!) more than three years ago!

Oh, well, better luck next time!

tanstaafl.
Posted by: julf

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 14/01/2004 13:54

Ah, ok, I only took beginner's music theory at Penn State, so I didn't know "H" was typically used to indicate Bb. I was just thinking like a comp. sci. guy, as in "the letter G plus one letter is H, so the note H should equivalent be G plus a half step."
And right you are. There are several systems. The anglo-saxon system, if I remember correctly, is based on the french/italian one, and uses Bb. The germans, being logical, as always, used H.
Posted by: music

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 22/02/2004 21:23

Nothing like unearthing a month-old post just to be pedantic....
But I am kind of behind on my BBS reading.

I just wanted to correct a few mis-statements in this thread.

1. The German system actually uses "B" to represent what we call B-flat, and it uses "H" to represent what we call B (not B-flat as was stated here).
So much for the vaunted German logic. Looks like it was on vacation for a while, as having the note "H" come between "B" and "C" isn't too logical. (I know, I know it actually makes some sense if you know the history behind it.)

2. C9 means add the dominant 7 and the 9.
Cadd9 specifically means do NOT add the 7th.

3. sus2 DOES mean to omit the 3rd, while 9 and add9 mean "do not omit the 3rd"
Sure, if you're a keyboard player, feel free to throw the 3rd into a sus2, but realize that you're actually making a slight chord substitution. (Which is cool, musical rules are meant to be understood, then broken with impunity. For example, classical counterpoint says "no parallel fifths EVER" while hard rock is built almost ENTIRELY on parallel fifth "power chords.")

/music

P.S. Hey look everybody! After two years of casual posting, I'm finally a "member." (Insert Beavis laugh here.)
At this rate, only two more years until I get "enthused."

Posted by: JeffS

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 23/02/2004 09:43

Well crap, I guess I was just about wrong on all counts. Guess I've forgotten more than I thought sence college. Now that you say about the "B", "Bb", "H" stuff, I remember all of that. But I never realized there was a difference between Cadd9 and C9, I just assumed that C9 was short for Cadd9.

As for parallel fifths, it is true that hard rock is built on parallel fifths, but I still try to avoid them when writing vocal haronies. I think the key is recognizing the effect that "breaking the rules has" and doing it when you want to achive something specific. As it turns out, parallel fifthing is something that defines the rock sound (at least for guitars).
Posted by: russmeister

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 23/02/2004 10:26

Guess I've forgotten more than I thought sence college.

And spelling has deteriorated as well.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: 14 Guitar notes - 23/02/2004 10:26

Rock'n'roll piano's pretty well built around it, too. Cf. Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard.