Laptop Decision
Posted by: tonyc
Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 10:59
A couple months ago, I asked about where to get the best deal on a Mac laptop. Well, after a couple months of keeping my eyes on the prices, it's clear that the the laptop that meeds my needs specs-wise (15" Powerbook) isn't coming into my price range anytime in the near future. I would be willing to stretch myself a little, but the price premium is just too far beyond what I can stomach right now...
So I'm now switching gears and looking at the PC laptop market, one that I've never really gotten into. Heck, I haven't even bought a PC in a long time, I've just kinda kept adding on / replacing stuff on the one I have. So I'm a little out of the loop... Here's basically what I'm looking for from a $1000-ish budget:
15" minimum screen that can do WXGA or SXGA+ resolutions
2GHz or higher (AMD prefered over Intel, but that limits things a lot)
512 mb or higher RAM
60GB or higher HD
DVD writer would be really nice, but I'd settle for a CDRW
3 year warranty and adequate support should be available
Needs to have a touchpad (I hate those little eraser things)
Build quality and reliability are more important than the specs. Since laptops aren't as user-servicable as desktops, I want something that I can count on lasting more than a year or two before I've got to fix something major or replace it.
So, any quick recommendations?
Posted by: belezeebub
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 11:24
HUmmm you need to check out DELL or Gateway they both have laptops in that price range, as for being able to count on it for more then a year or two I SUGGEST Strongly you get the service plans the 15" screen that WILL break of you even look at it funny is over 1000 bucks to have replaced on most laptops.
Posted by: loren
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 11:26
Just a sidenote... the Powerbooks are due for an update and price drop within the next month or two. Probably would have been sooner if it weren't for the delays with the speedbumped chips. I've been watching it closely for two months since i'm in the market for a 15" Powerbook myself... As soon as the new ones are released i'm plopping down the $$. The G5's Powerbooks should be out by year end, probably way sooner.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 11:30
Avoid Sony. They make nice laptops, but their aftersales support is abysmal. That said, I've got a Sony Vaio SRX87 and I've had no problems with it (touch wood).
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 12:21
Yeah, I considered Dell, saw a lot of good deals on them lately. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the desktop Dell I bought my parents last year. Anyone know how Dell's laptops compare to HP and Compaq (basically the same price range) in terms of build quality and/or reliability? I don't care about name branding within those three (two) manufacturers, I consider them in the same league.
The next step up would be either Sony or Toshiba, I guess, but that's also typically a step up in price. I've seen cheaper VAIO's lately (in the $1000 range) but Roger's comment about after-sales support backs up many similar accounts I've read, so I'll probably stay away from them. If I go with Toshiba, I'll probably have to trade off some features/performance to get near that $1000 mark. I've seen lower-end Toshibas but read real bad things about them.
Loren, thanks for the Mac info... Problem is I read the same stuff on the Mac Rumors site a few months ago, I'm starting to lose patience. Assuming they really are coming sooner rather than later, and I can muster enough patience to wait, any guess as to what the current 15" Powerbooks (with Superdrive) will go for (with educational discount) when the new ones come out? Are we talking $1800, $1600, less? I know PC prices go south very quickly when newer models come out, but the economics of the Mac market seem very different.
Posted by: cushman
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 12:42
I have a company-supplied Dell Latitude C600 with the super dock and I have had no problems with it in the past 3 years. It's a solid machine, just like the Toshiba that it replaced. I use it as my main PC each day (typing on the keyboard and using the display) and it has not given me any problems. The battery life is not the same as when I first got it, but that is to be expected for a 3 year laptop.
Posted by: trs24
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 13:20
any guess as to what the current 15" Powerbooks (with Superdrive) will go for (with educational discount) when the new ones come out? Are we talking $1800, $1600, less?
Well, that depends on what comes out, obviously. But IMO the next powerbook update is simply going to be a G4 proc speed bump, and probably only on the order of .25Ghz bump at that. If that's the case, I'd expect the current 1.25Ghz proc w/ SuperDrive to only get marked down a few hundred. I'd say probably $2,299 or maybe $2,199. It'll probably be avail on the Apple Store with a Combo for $1,999 - taking place of the current 1Ghz.
Now, If they come out with the G5 powerbook, then we're talking something different. Who knows what the Apple resellers would pawn off the G4 powerbooks for at that point. But at the rate that the G4 powerbooks are selling right now, I don't see the G5 coming out for quite a while. Currently the G4 powerbook is Apple's biggest hardware seller under the iPod, of course.
- trs
Posted by: Ezekiel
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 13:35
Be certain to avoid P4 laptops in favor of the Centrino M processors. Much cooler and more battery efficient.
I've had very good reviews from the office road warriors on their Dell D500 and D600 laptops that I've procured over the last few months. The D505 and D800 (Dell Latitude) are available with 15"+ screens. They also offer an accident protection option (3 years).
I don't purchase the Precision or Inspirion lines, so I can't comment on them.
-Zeke
Posted by: Dylan
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 14:12
I don't think you're going to find everything you want near $1000, especially if you want on a 3 year warranty. $1500 is probably more realistic. It's possible that a service plan from a retailer like Best Buy would be cheaper then a warranty from the manufacturor. But I personally wouldn't want to have to count on Best Buy (or Circuit City, or CompUSA) for service.
The most important question to answer is how are you going to use the machine? Will it almost always be on a desk and plugged in? Then battery life and heat dissipation isn't so important. But if you are going to be using it unplugged and actually sitting on your lap like I do, then those factors are critical. Centrino (Pentium M) machines are far and away the best choice for truly mobile use in mainstream laptops.
We use a lot of Dells here at the office and we have problems with the build quality of their cases. Little pieces will break off or the hinges won't hold up.
I'm very happy with the Compaq X1000 I bought recently. It's reasonably thin and light given the size of this screen. The case feels solid (no flexing plastic like a Dell). It gets 4 hours on the battery. Great screen. Good keyboard. The only design flaw is that the AC adapter connects on the right side instead of the back.
I'd recommend that you get a laptop that is advertised as having a wide viewing angle on the LCD. These LCDs are better not just because of the viewing angle. They also are brighter and have more contrast. It's a significant difference and worth seeking out, IMO.
As a general statement, I don't think anyone beats IBM for build quality, reliability and service. But those come at a price.
Posted by: brendanhoar
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 14:52
Are there really any laptops out yet with DVD writers integrated into them?
-brendan
Posted by: brendanhoar
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 14:58
> As a general statement, I don't think anyone beats IBM for build quality, reliability and service. But those come at a price.
Oh yeah. And as an IBM employee, I have access to the EPP (Employee Purchase Plan). If you're looking at thinkpad models, esp. ones that're just about to be replaced by a new line, they've got excellent deals.
If a thinkpad takes your fancy, contact me privately and I'll look up the current deals. I can give "friends and family" access access to the order page, so if board people vouch for you, I'll consider you a friend.
One of my friends just bought an X31 for $999 through my access to the program. I thought about getting one for myself for a week, and by that time, they were long gone.
Man, that was a steal.
Current specials are R40e's and T41s at the lower config ranges.
-brendan
Posted by: Dylan
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 15:13
In reply to:
Are there really any laptops out yet with DVD writers integrated into them?
Definitely. It's a common option now. I've got a 2.4x DVD+RW burner in mine.
Posted by: Jerz
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 15:42
The next step up would be either Sony or Toshiba, I guess, but that's also typically a step up in price. I've seen cheaper VAIO's lately (in the $1000 range) but Roger's comment about after-sales support backs up many similar accounts I've read, so I'll probably stay away from them.
I've had three Vaio Laptops with no problems whatsoever (I've never tried calling tech support since I never had to).
Posted by: brendanhoar
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 15:44
> 15" minimum screen that can do WXGA or SXGA+ resolutions
Ok, more doubt: I'm not aware of any $1000-ish non-refurb laptops that can do SXGA+ or WXGA. My awareness is limited to pricewatch.com
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 15:56
I used to do some support, and worked closely with a guy who did a lot of support, on Compaq laptops in a corporate environment. I'm pretty sure they were business-class laptops, but I could be wrong. We had nothing but trouble with the laptops and with Compaq support. And we had some sort of special sponsorship deal with them. I vowed never to buy a Compaq laptop. Maybe they're not as bad these days. Maybe they're selling HP laptops now, which always worked well for me. But those Compaq laptops sucked.
Posted by: webroach
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:01
I can echo the miserable experiences with Compaq laptops (though their servers have been nothing but rock solid, in my experience). I have an older Panasonic Toughbook CF-71 (the one with the military case and carry handle) that has NEVER let me down. One of my friends has one of the newer models and is really happy with it, even if it isn't quite as tough as the CF-71.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:06
Toshiba seems to be into making "winbooks" these days -- I would never buy anything that won't run Linux well.
Cheers
Posted by: peter
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:16
Toshiba seems to be into making "winbooks" these days -- I would never buy anything that won't run Linux well.
Does that basically narrow it down to IBM, or are there other options too? Sony TR1MP/TR2MPs are lovely, but you can't even get X on them properly as the panel's native resolution isn't one of the ones the BIOS knows about.
Peter
Posted by: andy
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:23
My Dell D600 seems to be quite happy running Knoppix.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:33
you can't even get X on them properly as the panel's native resolution isn't one of the ones the BIOS knows about.
What? That sentence sounds like one of those random strings of computer terms you hear in TV shows.
XFree86 can display basically any timing you want it to. This is potentially constrained by the graphics chip, but you know the graphics chip can put out the right timing, as it works under Windows. Of course, maybe you mean that there's no XFree86 driver for that graphics chip and you're forced to use VESA mode and none of those modes fit right, but I doubt that's the case. There are very few graphics chips on new computers and I doubt that any are unsupported that badly.
I know I'm coming off like a jerk here, but I can't figure out how to put it differently. Maybe I'm just totally misunderstanding what you're saying.
Posted by: brendanhoar
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:37
Using standard VGA modes on an 1400x1050 LCD laptop might make some people's eyes bleed. Don't LCD screens look horrid at non-native rez?
-brendan
Posted by: Yonzie
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:41
You want quality, reliability and a solid warranty above all else...
Hands down, IBM.
HP/Compaq is another possibility, but I believe that they won't be around anymore in 3 years (or at least in a vastly altered state), so I won't recommend them. Their support is crap as well. First you talk to an Indian tech that may not be able to solve your problem and then redirects you back to an US-based one. 2x transoceanic phone lines = garbled sound.
Dell is a popular option, but they're beginning to outsauce their support as well... More Indian techs that can only follow a script.
As someone else said, you want Centrino (Pentium M). Think of this as a PIII on steroids. A 1.5Ghz is (IIRC) ~as fast as a 2.4Ghz P4.
Just for kicks:
http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/html/products/mobile/
The SPARCle starts at $3k...
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 16:48
Sparc laptops were the deal back in the day, but, honestly, I can't see the benefit in one now unless you can't get your employer to pony up for a development Sparc box.
Posted by: peter
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 17:11
This is potentially constrained by the graphics chip, but you know the graphics chip can put out the right timing, as it works under Windows. Of course, maybe you mean that there's no XFree86 driver for that graphics chip and you're forced to use VESA mode and none of those modes fit right, but I doubt that's the case.
Well, I don't have one myself, but the problem is widely reported to be that the chipset operates in two modes: using the built-in VESA modes, none of which is right (the LCD is "widescreen" 1280x768), or "other modes". Programming it for "other modes" is apparently non-obvious and undocumented, and only the closed-source Windows driver knows how to do it.
Peter
We have HP notebooks at work and the build quality is ok but they are very unreliable - slow, crash etc. I've never had a problem with any Dell PCs/notebooks and find their customer service to be excellent.
We also have Toshiba notebooks and they have to be the best build quality I've seen - perform very well too. Pricey in comparsion though.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 10/03/2004 22:02
Thanks to everyone for all the info and suggestions. The responses are all kinda telling me that I underestimated what a well-built PC laptop would set me back. I was, in fact, seeing sub-$1000 prices (with coupons and rebates some of them were WAY sub-$1000), but they were mostly P4's. Dell and others seem to be clearing out P4 laptops on the cheap. Those same discounts don't seem to be reflected in Centrino laptops, and certainly, the IBM's, Toshibas, and Sony's of the world don't seem to be playing catch-up.
Having said that, it seems like $1300 or so will get me into an
HP zt1300 with 15.4" WXGA and a 1.4 GHz Centrino and 256MB RAM. That's not so bad. From distilling the comments here and reading the various reviews, it looks like this is my best bet in a laptop unless I want to sacrifice screen size to go with an Thinkpad or Toshiba. But that HP has gotten really stellar reviews on CNet, which is kinda rare considering negatives often speak louder than positives... If I go with a PC, this is probably where I'll go.
However, I peeked at the Apple refurbs again tonight, and it looks like if I just stretch out a couple hundred more, I can get a refurbished Titanium with 15" screen and about the same performance characteristics. I'm really tempted to do that now that I've realized a $1000 PC laptop is going to be crappy. If I think of it as a 3+ year investment (which I'm not used to doing with desktops) it becomes esaier to stomach the thought of plunking down more cash. I think after all this, I'm actually swinging back towards the Powerbooks.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 00:13
Wouldn't you know it, after all that, I bought the freakin' refurbished 15" Powerbook. I figure if I"m going to shell out $1300-$1500 for a well-built PC laptop, I might as well go the extra mile and get something I really want. I will definitely have a million questions for you Mac guys once it gets here, but as long as it's got a bash prompt, I should do okay.
Thanks again for all the input, everybody.
Posted by: trs24
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 01:09
Hey, congrats! I got my new 15"er just a couple of months ago and I love it. Did you get the backlit keyboard? I was amazed at how useful that feature really was.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of configuration did you end up getting?
- trs
Posted by: thinfourth2
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 01:32
bought my first apple about 6 months ago and have not looked back since
Only problem is i want a nice shiny G5 desktop now instead of a £500 self built pc piece of junk
Posted by: Yonzie
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 05:43
Nice.
Did you get the AppleCare plan too?
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 06:37
Probably didn't get the backlit keyboard, since it's a refurbed unit. If it is there, it'll be a nice surprise. I never look at my keyboard anyway, so the only useful part for me would be automatic screen dimming, and I can live without that.
Ended up getting the 15" 1.0 GHz with 256MB and 60GB. Didn't come with an Airport card so I threw that in, too.
No Applecare plan yet,. I understand I can get that at any time in the first year, so I'll see how that goes and buy it if I feel nervous about years #2 and #3. My American Express card has Buyer's Assurance plan which adds an additional year, so really I'd be paying for year #3.
Posted by: Yonzie
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 07:55
No Applecare plan yet,. I understand I can get that at any time in the first year, so I'll see how that goes
mkay. You should be aware that if you do not get AppleCare, it will be $50 per support call, even if it's because the machine is broken and you need to get it fixed under warranty. This should be illegal in some way.
Read more here:
http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=512
Scroll down past the comic and read the left (grey) rant. The interesting stuff starts at paragraph 10.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 09:12
as long as it's got a bash prompt, I should do okay.
Even better, you can easily get a zsh prompt.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 09:16
it will be $50 per support call, even if it's because the machine is broken and you need to get it fixed under warranty.
Wow, that is a total money grab. Of course I hope I never have to deal with such a situation, but $50 just to send your machine back after the 90 day period is ludicrous.
Posted by: Yonzie
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 09:45
It is.
At least, they *are* solid machines.
Since you probably want the AppleCare plan in the future, I don't see it as being a real problem for you.
Posted by: trs24
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 10:14
I never look at my keyboard anyway, so the only useful part for me would be automatic screen dimming, and I can live without that.
I'm not a looker either - but I sure have a hard time finding home row in the dark!
Yeah, those features do border on novelty, but after using my new PB and then going back to my old Ti one night in the dark, I was blinded by the light of the screen and then as a result could hardly find the keyboard. It's a novelty I've grown to love in the new PB. One of those things that I couldn't imagine not having as standard fxnality in a laptop now.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy with your PB. I'm been considering Apple Care, too. My old Ti lasted 4 years, though, without a problem. Then, everything went to pot. The Airport card crapped out then the right half of the screen started blanking out. Now, though with so many additonal features, ports, and what-not packed into the new PB, I'm tempted to get the care program. Who knows.
- trs
Posted by: drakino
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 14:26
it will be $50 per support call, even if it's because the machine is broken and you need to get it fixed under warranty.
I guess I haven't come across that. I do know it costs money to talk to Apple to troubleshoot problems outside the 90 days, but I was always under the impression that any such charges would be refunded if pure problem diagnosing ended in having to repair the system.
Easy way around this though, and the hassle of shipping the system off. Find a local
reseller that also does support. I have never been charged by mine, even in troubleshooting a really odd and infrequent problem. I have had the screen replaced once (known pressure points causing white spots to appear in the first shipments), and had my right USB port fail to power/see devices (required a tiny 1 inch PCB to be replaced to fix it). Both repairs, I took the system in, showed them the problem, and they ordered the parts. 1-2 days later when they had time, they called be back and had my Powerbook back to me in 30 mins.
Posted by: JeffS
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 14:33
I'm not a looker either - but I sure have a hard time finding home row in the dark!
The feature I've grown used to is the little bumps on the "f" and "j" keys. I never even knew they were there until I tried a keyboard without them.
Posted by: V99
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 14:36
mkay. You should be aware that if you do not get AppleCare, it will be $50 per support call, even if it's because the machine is broken and you need to get it fixed under warranty. This should be illegal in some way.
I haven't had to call them lately, but I'm pretty sure you're only charged if it turns out to be a tech-support call where they fix the problem you caused, not if there's a hardware problem and you send it in.
Too slow...
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 15:52
I'm not a looker either - but I sure have a hard time finding home row in the dark!
23ppl 8 u7w5 w5q45 5608jtl qhe 8r 5y8htw o99i r7hh6l 8 ih92 8 j8ww3e 5y3 y9j3 492l
Whoops... Make that...
Well, I just start typing, and if things look funny, I know I missed the home row.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 15:55
That's pretty good:
% tr '1234567890qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm,.' 'qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;zxcvbnm,.'
23ppl 8 u7w5 w5q45 5608jtl qhe 8r 5y8htw o99i r7hh6l 8 ih92 8 j8ww3e 5y3 y9j3 492l
we;;. i just start typimg. and if things look funny. i know i missed the home row.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 11/03/2004 16:10
Pedant.
Posted by: loren
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 14:28
Bumping an old thread... but the Powerbooks and iBooks were updated today... ordered mine as soon as i woke up! Finally!!!
PowerBook 1.5GHz PowerPC G4
15.2-inch TFT Display
512K L2 cache
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 128MB
512MB DDR333 SDRAM - 1 SO-DIMM
80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
AirPort Extreme built-in
Bluetooth built-in
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400 & 800
DVI & S-Video out
Can't wait for that thing to get here!!!
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 14:42
Are they selling the old ones cheaper somewhere?
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 15:37
You have me to thank, as I have the uncanny ability to buy things immediately before a new one comes out or the prices drop on them. Having said that, I haven't really felt the need for more CPU power on my Powerbook yet, and I've been using it as my everyday computer lately.
Posted by: loren
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 18:32
Are they selling the old ones cheaper somewhere?
good question. i'd bet there'll be a price cut in the channels on any remaining stock, but from what i've read Apple has been letting things dry up with the powerbooks for a while. I know the 15" would be hard to find since it's their most popular seller.
You have me to thank
hahah. I've been waiting 2 months for this release just to get a speed bump, 4x burner, and 128 meg mobile radeon for the same price point. It'll definitely be my main machine... prepare for lots of off topic posts from me re: the powerbook!
Posted by: visuvius
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 18:51
Hey I just got a Dell Inspiron with that same video card and I just gotta say that it rocks. I've run Call of Duty, BF 1942 and Final Fantasy 11 on it so far and all three looked amazing -- I had everything maxed to full. I had no idea that a notebook could run games that well.
You're in for some good times.
Posted by: loren
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 19:01
Too bad i won't be running any of those on a mac. *sigh*
Posted by: drakino
Re: Laptop Decision - 19/04/2004 19:24
BF1942 is actually being ported over and quite a few games have been ported. While not all popular games make it over, more and more are, with a few even being either released at the same time, or even better, being released on a hybrid disc.
I'll probably end up playing something to pass the time on the trip over the ocean this summer.