Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses

Posted by: DWallach

Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 20/08/2004 13:00

Canon seems to have leapfrogged over Nikon. The new Canon 20D body is 8 megapixels, has 9 autofocus zones that work with less ambient light, and can support a 5fps frame rate (23 frame buffer with JPEG, only 6 with RAW). Perhaps more important, Canon has announced two new EF-S lenses (17-85mm with image stabilization and 10-22mm) that only work on the 20D and the D-Rebel / 300D. Up to this announcement, Nikon has had a significant lead in wide-angle lenses for D-SLRs (the DX series of lenses), but this announcement significantly helps Canon close the gap. In particular, the Nikon D70 kit includes an 18-70mm lens, and Canon now offers a lens with a wider range and image stabilization. If somebody were newly getting into digital photography and wanted to go the SLR route, a Canon 20D plus the 17-85mm lens would be a fantastic way to get started.

Now we just have to see how / when Nikon responds with a successor to the D100.

All the information is over at DPReview.com or Luminous Landscape.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 20/08/2004 15:51

Speaking of which..

Does anyone here want a slightly used BG-ED3 battery/grip accessory for their 10D/D60/D30 camera? My new 20D wants it's own new version of this, so..
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 20/08/2004 18:44

You have one already? Huh?

-Zeke
Posted by: SuperQ

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 21/08/2004 00:00

Mmmm.. yess.. the 20D looks very nice. Just when I was thinking about getting a D70, this thing pops up in the list.. darnit!
Posted by: gbeer

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 21/08/2004 02:05

This buying of digital cameras is worse than buying computers!
I have 3 cameras so far.
Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 21/08/2004 09:25

Ooo, no turn on delay! [drools]
Posted by: DWallach

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 21/08/2004 13:06

Quote:
Mmmm.. yess.. the 20D looks very nice. Just when I was thinking about getting a D70, this thing pops up in the list.. darnit!


Of course, they're not for sale yet, and by the time they are, there may well be some new Nikon gear on the market as well.

The thing to remember with SLR's, as opposed to point-and-shoots, is that you're not just buying a camera. You're buying a system. At this point, hardly a few months after buying my D70 with the 18-70mm kit lens, I've also bought a 105mm macro lens and a 70-300mm (f4-f5.6) zoom. I've also bought the fancy Nikon SB-800 flash. I've already got some serious friction standing between me and a jump to Canon gear, so minor feature improvements wouldn't be enough to sway me.

However, if you're starting from scratch, how do you decide which system is for you?

The benefits of Canon seem to be:

- more lenses with image stabilization (although Nikon has several good ones now)
- more lenses with ultrasonic ring motors (faster/quieter focusing)
- higher resolution sensors at the high end
- maybe a 3-6 month lead on shipping camera bodies with any given generation of sensor technology

The benefits of Nikon seem to be:

- better / more accurate auto-exposure systems (possibly a subject of debate)
- faster flash sync (probably irrelevant to many people)
- better buffering and frame rates (at a given price point)
- better wide-angle lenses, particularly for digital camera
- a wider variety of obscure / used lenses and accessories
- a possible more useful auto-ISO system than Canon
- radically better PC and Mac software

EDIT: I originally said that Canon's autofocus system is better. I've read more web sites, including Rob Galbraith's review of the 20D, and the Nikon vs. Canon autofocus quality issues seem to be unclear. Galbraith claims an advantage for Nikon that this newest Canon may or may not improve upon.


As many DP Review fanatics have pointed out, it's not really fair to compare a Nikon D70 to a Canon 20D. By all reports, the Nikon D70 kit creams the Canon 300D / D-Rebel kit, but you pay $1300 for the Nikon versus $1000 for the Canon. Nikon is rumored to be announcing a successor to the current D100 in September. One can imagine that this future Nikon will have comparable specs and prices to the Canon 20D. Of course, there's plenty of debate at the professional end (Canon 1D Mark2 vs. Nikon D2H and Canon 1Ds vs. assorted Nikon competition, including the new Fuji S3 Pro), but that's all out of the price range (and necessary feature set) of most people on this board.

One thing that's quite clear is that Nikon and Canon are frantically improving their products, and leaving the rest of the D-SLR vendors in the dust. I can't imagine why you'd want to buy the Olympus, Pentax, or Konica-Minolta D-SLRs unless you already had a big investment in those lenses.

I figure buying a camera these days is a lot like buying a PC, where there's always something better around the corner. You buy when you need one. You're buying into a whole system, not just a body, so you have to think further out.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 23/08/2004 01:04

Quote:
The benefits of Nikon seem to be:

- better / more accurate auto-exposure systems (possibly a subject of debate)
- faster flash sync (probably irrelevant to many people)
- better buffering and frame rates (at a given price point)
- better wide-angle lenses, particularly for digital camera
- a wider variety of obscure / used lenses and accessories
- a possible more useful auto-ISO system than Canon
- radically better PC and Mac software

Err, no. The s/w is about equal between the two, and the wide-angle options are also now the same between the two. Canon's have *always* been better at high ISO, so no gain there. The buffering/frame rate of the 20D blows away *anything* from Nikon below the D2H, so no advantage there.

It's just getting more difficult for a ma&pa operation (Nikon) to keep up with the huge behemoth known as Canon. Canon has been seriously out-classing all-comers in the DSLR market for some time now, usually enjoying at least a 10-14 month lead on all models since 2000. Once in a while something like the D70 pops up to place a competitor back in the game, but then a few months later Canon reclaims the crown with a big leap product like the 20D.

Great for us purchasers, having some real competition, but Canon really dominates this segment.

EDIT: Now if only Canon could get decent metering on their sub 1-series cameras..

Cheers
Posted by: DWallach

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 23/08/2004 13:01

Quote:
The s/w is about equal between the two, and the wide-angle options are also now the same between the two. Canon's have *always* been better at high ISO, so no gain there. The buffering/frame rate of the 20D blows away *anything* from Nikon below the D2H, so no advantage there.


Having using both Canon and Nikon software, it's my opinion that Nikon's software blows Canon's away. Nikon View is just far more flexible in every way than Canon ZoomBrowser, although Canon's new software may be better. These days, I mostly use Adobe Photoshop's Camera Raw, which blows both of those out of the water.

When you talk about Canon vs. Nikon parity, it's important to consider gear that's actually for sale. Canon has pre-announced the gear they'll have on sale for Christmas. Nikon will probably do its announcements next month prior to Photokina (which starts September 28). All the gear will probably be on sale at the same time. Likewise, I qualified my satements about buffering and frame rate with "at a given price point". For the ~$1000 body (Canon 300D vs. Nikon D70), Nikon blew Canon out of the water. For the ~$1500 body, the Canon 10D has some advantages over the Nikon D100, but it's unclear how the Canon 20D will stack up against the rumored forthcoming Nikon D200. At the pro end (1D Mark II vs. D2H), both cameras do an amazing 8fps, but I don't really follow those cameras too closely. Sports photographers seem to be mostly Canon users, but I've seen lots of other press shooting with Nikon.

For lenses, again, we don't know what Nikon will announce for Photokina. In recent years, Canon has had an advantage with longer lenses, but Nikon has had an advantage with wide angles and both are catching up to each other in the areas that they're weak. Canon has finally announced some new EF-S lenses, but they still lack a competitor to the Nikon 10.55mm DX fisheye. Conversely, Nikon lacks the ultrasonic motors and image stabilization that Canon has in more of its product line, although Nikon has shipped several of these sorts of lenses in the past year and may well have new ones up their sleeve.

All of this is picking nits. The high-level bit is that Nikon and Canon are far, far ahead of the rest of the D-SLR market. For some tasks, Canon is the camera of choice. For others, it's Nikon. I don't disagree that Canon is the one to beat, particularly for pro sports photography, but I also think that Nikon is very much in the game and an investment in Nikon gear is just as reasonable as an investment in Canon gear for most people's needs.
Posted by: g_attrill

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 24/08/2004 18:57

Ok, I think I'm gonna spring for a new camera, a DSLR, possibly a D70.

Now my boss said he's going to New York in a couple of weeks for a shopping/sight-seeing trip of undetermined length.

Can anybody recommend a place where he could pick up a camera for me, somewhere a short distance from the tourist areas, or near somewhere that I can pursuade him to visit!?

Gareth
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 24/08/2004 19:05

I think Rob has suggested J&R before, which is right across from City Hall. They're also a reasonably large mail-order house, so you should be able to check for it online (they seem to be out of stock).
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 25/08/2004 01:46

B&H Photo Video (www.bhphotovideo.com) is a photographic equipment Disney World. 33rd to 34th & 9th (IIRC). Closed Saturday (you'll figure that one out the second you walk in).

-Zeke
Posted by: SuperQ

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 25/08/2004 02:19

yes.. I'm starting from scratch, so it's a big decision to make.. I know 2 people with D70's and one with an older Canon D60. I like the canon for the better (atleast in the older 10D reviews) night/low light shots. the CMOS sensors seem to be better for that kind of shooting, tho people say the D70 catches up a signifigant ammount on the noise front.

Since I really won't be able to afford any until xmas anyway.. I'll wait for the reviews and comparisons to come out.

I like the price point of the 300D/D70, but I figure I should spend the extra $300 USD to get the next level up to get a higher quality body. the D70 is much better feel than the 300D, but it's not a nice solid metal feeling like some other film cams I've used.
Posted by: DWallach

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 25/08/2004 13:00

First, I agree with the plug for B&H Photo. I've bought lots of gear from them. If they say it's in stock, they mean it and you'll get it right away. There's always somebody with the camera for less money, but never a whole lot less.

Honestly, both Nikon or Canon will make you happy. In terms of night photography, I can't speak for Canon, but here's what a D70 can do. I took this picture on July 4. These are some locals who like to blow things to bits. This guy is wearing a custom metal hat, loaded with all manner of fireworks. He's dancing around while the fireworks are shooting out of his head. (The hat has a WW1-era helmet welded into it for safety, and he's also wearing earplugs and welder's leathers.)

I was about two meters away, laying on the ground and shooting as fast as I possibly could, despite the occasional embers falling on me. They didn't give me a chance to run back to my car to grab my tripod ("we're doing this now, you ready?"), so this is hand-held at 1/30 second (using the kit lens, wide open), bracing my forearm between the ground and the camera.

The camera, in its own auto-ISO wisdom, decided to expose the image at ISO 640, which turned out to be a bit underexposed for the background foliage, and a bit bright for the fireworks -- probably the right compromise. Luckily, I always shoot raw, so I had plenty to work with. First, here's a draft of the image, color corrected and cranked up to 3200ASA or so using Adobe Photoshop CS:



At 3200 ASA (not even officially supported by the camera but easy to do after the fact), the blue channel is pretty much useless noise in the dark bits, but there's still good signal in the highlights. I redeveloped the image at a lower speed but imported the full 16-bit data into Photoshop, where I then played lots of games with layers, channel mixers, and masks so I could work separately on the dark parts and the bright parts. Here's the result:



In short, it took maybe ten minutes of work, but the end result was better than I could have ever expected. So, I ain't saying Nikon is better or worse than Canon. I'm saying that either camera could have taken this image, but to really perfect it, you've got to work it afterward. Sure, there's some noise (one-to-one pixels of the final image below), but it's quite acceptable, all things considered. The only question is whether the camera can correctly pick good exposure and focus settings, since you're potentially far too busy to worry about those things.

Posted by: Gene Yuger

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 10/09/2004 12:30

Hi,

I need a BG-ED3 grip! Do you still have it and how much would you sell it for?
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 12/09/2004 00:37

I still have the whole kit here, grip included. A buddy of my has first dibs on the D60, but I don't think he'll want the grip. Make a nice offer, please!

Cheers
Posted by: Gene Yuger

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 13/09/2004 11:09

Hi, I'd like to get one without going over $100, the reason is - I need it for a used D30 which I just bought online and don't even know how long the camera will last so investing into a brand new grip does not make much sense. To give you a clue, I can just tell you that the best price I coud find online for a used one is $130.
Thanks,
Gene
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 16/09/2004 22:06

Mmm.. I can ship you mine for US$120 (shipping incl).

??
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 17/09/2004 02:19

My 20D with 17-85mm IS lens is due here either Friday or Monday...
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 17/09/2004 13:19

Do let us know your opinions!

-Zeke
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 03/10/2004 21:41

Well, I've had the 20D for about three weeks now, and my opinion is.. too busy snapping photos to write about it! I absolutely love it!

My D60 was no slouch, and there was a huge step up in responsiveness and capabilities when I got the D60 to supplant my Nikon 990.

The difference with the 20D is every bit as big a leap in usability. That's my opinion in a nutshell. This camera never makes me wait for anything, even with a quite slow 1GB CF card for storage. It is fast, fast, fast, and that is far more important than I thought it would be before getting the 20D. Makes a massive difference for me.

More later.

Cheers
Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 04/10/2004 13:19

Argh. Must upgrade.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 04/10/2004 16:17

Of course, I couldn't buy *just* the new body.. now I have way too many nice lenses here... what to do.. what to do..

EDIT: Speaking of lenses, the new 17-85-IS is suprisingly well built. Quite solid construction, much much more so than the 28-135-IS had. It's even better built (mechanically) than my also new 70-300-DO-IS is.

So far, photos are good with both of those new lenses, though neither is going to rival my L lenses for colour/contrast. On the other hand, the two of them together are about the size of just one of my L lenses.. guess which ones I'll choose to walk around Oz with this fall..

Cheers
Posted by: andy

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 09:23

Canon have now done it again at the bottom end of the DSLR market.

Their new 350D / Digital Rebel XT gets all of the speed improvement of the 20D, plus 8 mega pixels and gains most of the manual controls that were removed from the 300D when compared to the 10D it was based on.

Oh and it is quite a bit smaller and 17% lighter than the 300D.

...and most importantly, it is available in black from the outset

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos350d/

and it still doesn't have a permanently visible ISO value. Why the hell not ?!
Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 10:40

I believe it's time to trade up.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 13:00

Yup, the new DRebel/Kiss/350/whatevertheycalledit is one heck of a nice camera -- were I buying today, I'd get it instead of the 20D. No question. The 20D has a number of minor features over it's baby bro, including a real Prism viewfinder (as opposed to the "penta mirror"), but not enough for me to want to pay US$500-600 extra for now!

Cheers!
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 13:02

Quote:
guess which ones I'll choose to walk around Oz with this fall..


Speaking of which.

Cheers
Posted by: DWallach

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 17:56

Quote:
Canon have now done it again at the bottom end of the DSLR market.

Disappointingly, Nikon hasn't announced anything new, whatsoever, in the consumer space. They're continuing to sell the perfectly good D70, but all of the rumors that they'd have a cheaper D50 and/or more expensive D90 have not come to pass. There's some new stuff at the high end, but that's not really interesting unless you're a professional photographer.

The new Canon 350D / Digital Rebel XT now has rough feature parity with the Nikon D70. Two megapixels of additional resolution is a moderate improvement, but the instant-on, the deeper buffer, and whatnot are far more important. The fact that Canon is selling it for such a cheap price is going to put a huge amount of pressure on all of their competition.
Posted by: andy

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 18/02/2005 20:36

I was suprised to hear that Canon will not be discontinuing the 300D/Digital Rebel, they are going to keep it as the bottom of the range model.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 19/02/2005 01:21

That's just marketing-speak for "we can't say it's being discontinued until stock levels finally ease off, as otherwise we'd be stuck with tons of stock as dealers await firesale pricing on it all".
Posted by: mlord

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 19/02/2005 13:51

Changelog:

-- 19-Feb-2005: added EXIF data to my website photo browser

This now shows the shooting info at the bottom of each image. Eg. shutter speed, f-stop, ISO, focal length, speedlight setting, and the model of lens used.

Semi-useful for anyone looking at my pics with an eye on evaluating lens quality and/or versatility etc.

Cheers
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 19/02/2005 13:57

I'd have to see one in person, but the smaller size also sounds nice. There's no need to have enormous SLR bodies when using Digital - with film, a large part of it was about the film plane and cartridge. I really liked the size of the Pentax *istD for example. Sure wish Nikon would release a D200 with a similar size. I'd love to go back to using an SLR. About the only thing i'd miss (that I have with my 5700) is the ability to preview a shot on the rotating LCD before taking it. This lets me put the camera on the ground (or low enough that I can't get my head low enought o the viewfinder) while I look at it from above - or above my head while I look at it from below. Every time I hande a film SLR right now I just long for the crystal-clear non-EVF viewfinder... Ahhh...

Bruno
Posted by: DWallach

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 20/02/2005 03:40

I've heard arguments about heavier cameras being easier to handle under some circumstances (i.e., more mass == more inertia == less jiggles), but it's hard to beat a light travel weight.

When I went from my Canon G3 to the Nikon D70, the big change was giving up on the rotating screen. Initially it bummed me out, but then I made up for it with the frame rate. On the G3, pressing the button was a big commitment. It takes several seconds to commit an image (in raw mode) to the memory card. On the D70, it's all nicely buffered so you don't have to worry about it. That means you just hold the camera in whatever position, shoot a few shots, and check to see if you ended up with what you had in mind. This works pretty well for normal lenses, but has proven to be insufficient for my fisheye lens. Every small bit of tilt in the camera can have a radical effect on the final image and you really have to be seeing the final image to get it right.

So far, the Fuji S3 and the Canon 20Da (the "astronomy" version of the 20D with the infrared filter removed) have introduced LCD preview modes, but it's not clear that either would be useful in practice. If you like being eccentric, you can get it today in the Epson R-D1. Presumably, as the D-SLR space gets more crowded, the flip-and-rotate screens will start showing up in more cameras. It's a great feature.
Posted by: mcomb

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 20/02/2005 17:17

Quote:
I'd have to see one in person, but the smaller size also sounds nice.


Really? Size was one of the complaints I had about the Rebel when I played with one before deciding on the D70. It was already too small and light to be handled like a "real camera", the ergonomics just weren't quite right (or maybe my hands are too big?). I can't imagine an even smaller camera feeling right to someone used to a film SLR.

-Mike
Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Cool new Canon D-SLR and lenses - 25/04/2005 22:38

I purchased the Canon 350D and I personally like the smaller size. It is definately lighter and easier to manage for me. It cuts down in weight when it comes to lugging it around all day. My only beef with the camera is that the new black body (it comes in gray, as well) has a textured surface that scratches all too easy. Most of the camera stays scratch-free, the due to the smaller size, the area just to the right of the lens tends to get fingernail scratches and such.

All in all, I'm happy with the higher mega-pixel rate, the smaller size, the (greatly increased) boot time, the higher capacity battery, and other goodies that Canon has added.