Linux on a laptop?

Posted by: canuckInOR

Linux on a laptop? - 13/01/2006 23:30

Hi all,

My girlfriend gave me an old Sony VAIO laptop (Z505LS) -- PIII, 192MB RAM, 20GB HD. It's dreck being junked from where she works, but it's new to me, and my first laptop, so I'm quite happy to have it. My intended use for this thing is primarily entertainment during air-travel (non-graphics intensive games, and DVDs ripped to the HD), possibly a GPS nav system, and checking email.

I tried stuffing SuSE 9.3 on it, since that's what I had handy, but it has difficulties installing. It refused to even load YaST2 until I upgraded the memory (stolen from another junker laptop she brought home), but it still seems to die from lack of memory while partitioning the drive.

Anyone have any recommendations on a linux distro that I can use that's reasonably light on resources? I can't find a good distro comparison chart on distrowatch.com. My first thought was Damn Small Linux, but that doesn't support PCMCIA cards, so it's useless on a laptop.

FWIW, I completed the partitioning after booting from a Knoppix CD, so I may give SuSE another whirl, but I wanted to throw the door open to other options, in case there's a distro out there that I'm not aware of, which is really, really good on older laptops.

Cheers,
Posted by: tman

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 13/01/2006 23:52

Have you disabled PNP in the BIOS?
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 00:03

Yup -- I'd read that was necessary to get the audio working.

(But I'll double check, again, of course.)
Posted by: mlord

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 00:04

I only recommend Kubuntu and/or Ubuntu these days. Head and shoulders above most of the crud.

I have not tried them on a limited memory machine, though. Even our "discarded" laptops here have 512MB each (2GB in the new ones). Ubuntu should do somewhat better than Kubuntu for this, though (KDE/Kubuntu is fantastic, but yes, it's a memory hog).

Cheers
Posted by: tman

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 00:07

Quote:
Yup -- I'd read that was necessary to get the audio working.

Ah. Didn't know it was in specific howtos for the Z505LS. On my old VAIO PCG-F305 I had to disable PNP otherwise it would panic during boot.
Posted by: Roger

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 07:10

Quote:
I have not tried them on a limited memory machine, though.


Debian/woody worked fine on my (256Mb) Vaio SRX87 last time I tried it (once I got it installed, that is). When I get around to rebuilding it, I'll probably go for Ubuntu, though.
Posted by: julf

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 14:34

Maybe gentoo - at least it allows you to pick and choose exactly what you include and what you don't.
Posted by: andym

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 14:38

Quote:
Maybe gentoo - at least it allows you to pick and choose exactly what you include and what you don't.


Although it's not a point and click install, it'll teach you a lot about the inner workings of Linux.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 18:34

Quote:
I only recommend Kubuntu and/or Ubuntu these days. Head and shoulders above most of the crud.

I had a feeling that might be your recommendation.

Quote:
I have not tried them on a limited memory machine, though. Even our "discarded" laptops here have 512MB each (2GB in the new ones). Ubuntu should do somewhat better than Kubuntu for this, though (KDE/Kubuntu is fantastic, but yes, it's a memory hog).

Yeah, I knew that, already. I use KDE both at work, and at home. I'll take a look at it, and see what I think. I suspect I'll have to/want to move away from KDE to a more lightweight window manager.

Though, since Windows ME runs fine on it, I figure that KDE shouldn't be too terribly slow.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 18:39

Quote:
Quote:
Yup -- I'd read that was necessary to get the audio working.

Ah. Didn't know it was in specific howtos for the Z505LS. On my old VAIO PCG-F305 I had to disable PNP otherwise it would panic during boot.

It wasn't actually a specific howto -- just one of the random google hits, really.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 18:43

I used to run Debian -- I absolutely loved the apt- stuff. What really annoyed me was a) the infrequency of updates, and b) their stance on non-free software, which made it more difficult to get stuff that I felt was fine, but which didn't completely match their ideal GPL license.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 18:48

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe gentoo - at least it allows you to pick and choose exactly what you include and what you don't.


Although it's not a point and click install, it'll teach you a lot about the inner workings of Linux.

Quite honestly, I like point-n-click install. I've been using unix based systems since '93, and helped write an OS during University. I have no significant desire to go through *that* much pain to get this laptop up and running, just to learn a bit more about the innards of Linux.

The pick-and-choose part is a nice thing, but I've found that most point-n-click installers allow the same thing if you choose expert mode, anyway.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 19:05

Actually, Gentoo does really nice things like letting you specify in a global configuration file the types of things you'd like support for, like, for instance, SSL support. If it's turned on and you install a package with optional SSL support, you get it, otherwise you don't. This can be a big deal sometimes with pre-compiled packages when trying to find the right combination of packages to make something work.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 19:33

Quote:
Quote:
I have not tried them on a limited memory machine, though. Even our "discarded" laptops here have 512MB each (2GB in the new ones). Ubuntu should do somewhat better than Kubuntu for this, though (KDE/Kubuntu is fantastic, but yes, it's a memory hog).

Yeah, I knew that, already. I use KDE both at work, and at home. I'll take a look at it, and see what I think. I suspect I'll have to/want to move away from KDE to a more lightweight window manager.


XFCE4 is in the apt repository for Ubuntu, so you could install that after finishing the basic Gnome install, and then switch to it at login time.

Cheers
Posted by: sein

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 14/01/2006 20:52

Quote:
Maybe gentoo

It worked for me back when I had a R600MX. I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is green to Linux and also impatient. It is a little bit like jumping in the deep end, but it is the fastest way to learn!

The R600MX was also happy with Fedora, Ubuntu and Knoppix btw - I had them all on there at some point, and no issues in any of them. I am very surprised you are running into teething problems.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 15/01/2006 16:13

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe gentoo

It worked for me back when I had a R600MX.

Ah, thanks for the link.

Quote:
I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is green to Linux and also impatient. It is a little bit like jumping in the deep end, but it is the fastest way to learn!

I may or may not fit the 'impatient' description.

Quote:
The R600MX was also happy with Fedora, Ubuntu and Knoppix btw - I had them all on there at some point, and no issues in any of them. I am very surprised you are running into teething problems.

I ran knoppix with no problem, as well. I suspect the problem is that, the difference between these systems (though I don't know for sure about Fedora) is that they have text-based installs, while SuSE is a GUI based install -- with rather unreasonable memory requirements. :-p
Posted by: SuperQ

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 15/01/2006 16:35

The thing you need to be carefull about gentoo is some of the "recomended optimizations" that make things faster, also eat memory.. things like unroll loops.

I would say start with a debian/sarge or ubuntu base install (server mode?) and hand-add only the things you need.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 15:13

Quote:
I only recommend Kubuntu and/or Ubuntu these days. Head and shoulders above most of the crud.

So... I installed Kubuntu (5.10 -- I think that's Breezy Badger) last night.

*sigh*

I hate it already.

I switch between dvorak and qwerty. I tried to configure the keyboard layout tool so that I can click the little flag to change layouts. It defaults to a single layout of US English (basic). Great! I'll just add another US English, and set it to (dvorak). Bzzzt. Wrong. You can have one US English layout, and you have to reconfigure it if you want to change between dvorak and basic. Hello? My keyboard didn't change, here... I just want a different key layout.

(Okay, I know this isn't a kubuntu issue, so much as a KDE issue, but still... not a good first start.)
Posted by: mlord

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 16:15

Ahh.. SWMBO had some such similar complaint -- it's the new X.org keyboard stuff that's different. She wanted to switch between standard and international ("accent keys") layouts on the fly, so we figured out a way to do it. Here's her cookie crumb trail:

Quote:

- system settings -> accessibility -> KHotKeys
- New Group, set the name to something like "accent keys". Then move the group
to the top (or into some appropriate folder, whatever you like)
- New Action,
- set the name to something appropriate, like F11-US-kbd
- set the Action type to "Keyboard Shortcut -> Command/URL (simple)
- make sure Disable is *not* checked
- under Keyboard Shortcut, click on the "none" button & then you can type the
key you want to use as the hotkey (e.g. F11)
- under Command/URL Settings, type in the name of the command to run. YOU
CAN'T provide options to the command so if your command needs options,
you'll have to put them in a script. So, for accents, my command is
/usr/local/bin/KB-INTL where KB-INTL is just this simple script file:

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/setxkbmap -model pc104 -layout us -variant alt-intl &>/dev/null

and to get the normal keyboard again, the command script is KB_US:

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/setxkbmap -model pc104 -layout us -variant basic &>/dev/null

- OK, apply all that and then check that the sw that runs hotkeys is running
- personal -> kde components -> service manager
make sure KMilo is checked under Startup Services

with kde 3.4.2 kubuntu systemsettings
- us_intl has been incorporated inside the us file as an "alt-intl" variant AND
in the system settings (the old control center) -> accessibility -> keyboard
layout, you only get to choose one variant. So you can't switch between
them. BLAH. NFG.
- SO.... the easiest thing to do is to map the change-keyboard commands onto
function keys (or any keyboard shortcut you like). The command to set the
accent keyboard is:
/usr/bin/setxkbmap -model pc104 -layout us -variant alt-intl
and the one for the regular keyboard is:
/usr/bin/setxkbmap -model pc104 -layout us -variant basic
(There's another variant, "intl" which does some (all?) of the accents &
maybe it'll work better than alt-intl, but I haven't tried it yet.)

Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 17:14

Quote:
Ahh.. SWMBO had some such similar complaint -- it's the new X.org keyboard stuff that's different.

Hmm... you're right. Comparing it to SuSE 9.3, which also uses X.org, the SuSE layout configuration window actually has an entry for "Dvorak" in the "Available layouts" list, nestled between "Dutch" and "Dzongkha/Tibetan". So really, the behaviour is the same -- I can only have one US English entry in SuSE, as well -- it's just that the Dvorak entry I'm accustomed to using has disappeared, and I was trying to get it back by using the same entry twice, with different configurations. Poking around in /etc/X11/xkb shows a dvorak option on SuSE -- I'll look for it next time I'm near the laptop.

Quote:
She wanted to switch between standard and international ("accent keys") layouts on the fly, so we figured out a way to do it. Here's her cookie crumb trail:

My thanks to you and your SWMBO for the cookie crumb trail. Perhaps all I need to do is copy over the dvorak related files from the SuSE machine (I like being able to click the flag icon, since half the time it's my girlfriend that wants to be able to type, and I don't want to make her remember some arcane shortcut). If that fails, I'll be following the cookie crumb trail.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 17:49

The U.S.English (us) layout on my machine has a Dvorak "Layout variant" already, so you just need an easy way to switch between it and the regular layout.

The KDE Control Center --> R&A --> Keyboard Layout menu has a drop-down menu for this purpose, or you could just use a one line shell script similar to SWMBO's to do it, without having to navigate all those menus.

I'm running KDE 3.5, which is newer than the stock Breezy KDE.
You also could upgrade to KDE-3.5 on Breezy, by adding this line to /etc/apt/sources.list:

deb http://kubuntu.org/packages/kde35 breezy main

And then do apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade to fetch/install it.

Cheers
Posted by: mlord

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 17:59

If you do upgrade to KDE-3.5, one thing to note is that Kubuntu normally has their *own* menu item for System Settings, which is supposed to replace the KDE Control Center. But when you go to KDE-3.5, that particular component is no longer as functional as the real thing --> Eg. when trying to select a keyboard layout variant.

So you may also then want to Right-Click on System Settings (from the K menu), and do edit item, and change the Command it runs to be /usr/bin/kcontrol. Or do what I did, and just create a second menu entry, for KDE Control Center (/usr/bin/kcontrol).

Cheers
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 21:32

Quote:
The U.S.English (us) layout on my machine has a Dvorak "Layout variant" already, so you just need an easy way to switch between it and the regular layout.

I may not have been clear -- on SuSE, there is actually a Dvorak layout, which is an additional entry to the US English layout (which has its own dvorak variant). That's what's missing on the KUbuntu install.

Quote:
The KDE Control Center --> R&A --> Keyboard Layout menu has a drop-down menu for this purpose, or you could just use a one line shell script similar to SWMBO's to do it, without having to navigate all those menus.

I'll go the latter route, if necessary. I'm trying to find a way to be able to do it via point-n-click, since it's really going to be my girlfriend that needs it most of the time.

Quote:
I'm running KDE 3.5, which is newer than the stock Breezy KDE.
You also could upgrade to KDE-3.5 on Breezy, by adding this line to /etc/apt/sources.list: [...]

Ah, cool. I'll check that that's in my apt sources. I haven't gotten as far as upgrading to all the packages I really want, yet, since I got hung up with the keyboard layout thing. (The install happened overnight last night, and I only had a half-hour or so to play with it this morning before work.)
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 19/01/2006 21:33

Quote:
If you do upgrade to KDE-3.5, one thing to note is that Kubuntu normally has their *own* menu item for System Settings, which is supposed to replace the KDE Control Center.

Noted. I had noticed that the "Control Center" was a bit different, but wasn't sure if that was just due to a setting I hadn't yet mucked with.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 07/03/2006 01:54

Quote:
Quote:
I only recommend Kubuntu and/or Ubuntu these days. Head and shoulders above most of the crud.

So... I installed Kubuntu (5.10 -- I think that's Breezy Badger) last night.

*sigh*

I hate it already.

Bump.

Well, I got rid of Kubuntu in favour of SuSE 10.0. The install was very nice, but I discovered that a) it had the same issue with the keyboard layouts, and b) it didn't support the suspend/hibernate/standby features on this particular laptop (along with some other features) as well as Kubuntu did. It did, however, configure my pcmcia wireless card during the install, which Kubuntu didn't do.

The not-quite-as-good power features made me go back to Kubuntu. During the install, I got it to configure the wireless card (by the same trick I got SuSE to recognize it), this time. Between that, and figuring out the keyboard thing (use canadian for qwerty, US dvorak for... well... dvorak), and I'm much happier with Kubuntu. It's not quite as fancy, but that's fine.

The only thing I still wish I could adjust (and SuSE didn't provide it, either), is the sensitivity of the touchpad -- it's too sensitive for my taste, and I keep "clicking" by accident. Sometimes, it seems like the thing has a proximity sensor.

Cheers,
Posted by: gbeer

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 07/03/2006 02:30

It's been awhile since I tried linux on a laptop. But as I recall turning off the "tap to click" seemed to work wonders. The other thing to look for would be some form of disable until you have stopped typing for X time period.
Posted by: tman

Re: Linux on a laptop? - 07/03/2006 06:53

You could try the touchpad config utility for Linux. I've no idea if it has the necessary options as I'm at work and can't compile it.