Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way?

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 08/12/2007 17:46

Tony,
Does the camera you're using have an orientation sensor in it? If not then the exif tags coulnd't contain the information needed by the iPod. Editing them (setting orientation manually) would _add_ the orientation data.

-Zeke

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 08/12/2007 17:55

Originally Posted By: Ezekiel

Yes, the camera DEFINITELY has an orientation sensor, and correctly EXIF tags the photos. I can see the EXIF tags in IRFANVIEW, and the orientation field says the correct things for the landscape versus the portrait photos.

Every application I've got on the system that's supposed to handle the rotation of the photos automaticaly, *DOES* handle the rotation of the photos automatically. IRFANVIEW, Paint Shop Pro, etc., all open the photos correctly, rotating the photos to appear vertical.

Please note that in all cases I have NOT saved rotated/corrected photos back to the hard disk after viewing them in these apps, and any options to do so automatically have been disabled.

For instance, IRFANVIEW lets me choose whether to do lossless JPG rotation automatically, and I turned that off.

If I turn off the feature in IRFANVIEW that uses the EXIF tag to display the photo vertically, and then open the photo, it's sideways, exactly as I'd expect it to be.

What I'm trying to say here is: Yeah, everything is correct on my end of things. iTunes just sucks huge drippy green donkey balls, that's all.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 08/12/2007 22:32

Originally Posted By: tfabris

What I'm trying to say here is: Yeah, everything is correct on my end of things. iTunes just sucks huge drippy green donkey balls, that's all.

Really? Well, how does Windows Media Player or WinAMP compare to Paint Shop Pro?

What? WMP isn't a photo editing app? I can't do gaussian blurs using WinAMP? WTF?!

How dare they not pack full image editing features into a music app? You should write Steve J. right now and alert him to this.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 08/12/2007 22:38

Those would be valid arguments if they hadn't decided to use iTunes as a photo manager.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 02:24

Originally Posted By: wfaulk

Those would be valid arguments if they hadn't decided to use iTunes as a photo manager.

They don't. They decided to use iPhoto, Adobe Photoshop Album, Adobe Photoshop Elements, Windows XP Camera wizard, or Image Capture on OS X, all solutions Tony isn't using. So because he is going outside the bounds of what Apple added support for, he is having problems. Why the iPod isn't reading the EXIF data I don't know, but all iTunes does is simply moves images. You don't manage anything with it.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 06:07

Originally Posted By: drakino

Why the iPod isn't reading the EXIF data I don't know

More specifically, why iTunes isn't reading the EXIF data. The iPod just displays what iTunes feeds it.

The argument that "iTunes isn't a photo manager" isn't valid. It is a photo manager and photo synchronization application, albeit a very simple and limited one. In fact, from what I can tell, it's the only app available for synching photos from a Windows PC to an iPod Touch. It allows you to select (in a very limited way) which photos you want to load, then it processes the photos quite extensively for the purpose of adding them to the player. It pre-creates all the necessary thumbnails and zoom sizes, for example.

Anyway, whether you call it a photo manager or not, that argument doesn't matter.

What does matter is: For the purpose that the photo feature in iTunes is intended (loading the user's photos onto an iPod touch which supports orientation based-rotation), then it is completely logical to expect it to interpret the EXIF data on the photos and do the right thing.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 06:26

Originally Posted By: tfabris

The argument that "iTunes isn't a photo manager" isn't valid. It is a photo manager and photo synchronization application, albeit a very simple and limited one. In fact, from what I can tell, it's the only app available for synching photos from a Windows PC to an iPod Touch.

How is it a photo management program? I can't use it to download pictures off my camera, I can't use it to edit pictures, I can't use it to organize pictures, and I also can't use it to even display pictures beyond album art in my music files.

You are correct that iTunes is the only photo synchronization tool for Windows. And I will agree that it might seem logical to have iTunes or the iPod read EXIF rotation data, but clearly neither do, and they rely on a proper photo management solution to be used on both Mac and Windows platforms. Odds are Apple looked at the situation and saw that the Windows Camera Import program does the rotation, as do the two Adobe products on Windows that iTunes can sync from, and so the logic was never added on their side.

It seems EXIF is going through the same initial implementation pains that ID3 tags did in MP3 files.

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 14:04

Tony,
Clearly I can't argue, I would fully expect iTunes to do the right thing and read the exif tag.

So, now that you've identified that iT sucks for what you want, what's the quickie workaround? Batch process in irfan I suppose. However if you're the curious type, I would suggest the following:

We can deduce that:
1) iTunes reads an exif tag for orientation (that's the only place in jpeg for this data), but it's not the tag your camera writes.

2) If it is not reading the tag it is either because a) it's reading another tag or b) the tag contents or format written by your camera aren't handled by iTunes.

3) A side by side exif comparison of an Irfan processed and unprocessed file should yield the difference.

4) If not, then go have a taco and a beer and worry about something more fun.

-Zeke

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 15:55

My impression is that iTunes doesnt bother to read exif data at all.

Yeah, batch processing everything sounds like the only solution.

If someone made a third party photo uploader, maybe that would be a solution. Actually someone makes something called photopod but it doesnt support this device and its rotation feature is the opposite of what I need.

Since batch processing and rearranging my collection is out of the question at the moment, I guess this thing I'd still just a web browser.

Posted by: music

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 18:53

Originally Posted By: tfabris

I guess this thing I'd still just a web browser.

And I bet you typed this post on it, and you mis-typed "is" as "id" and the auto-correct changed it to "I'd".

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 09/12/2007 22:22

yup. $\:\)$

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 11:55

Tony,
It's so strange though. I copied a CD of my parent's trip to italy over to the touch as a test, and every photo worked fine.

"My impression is that iTunes doesnt bother to read exif data at all. "

How can that be correct? Exif is the only place a jpeg can store that data.

Send me two pictures (one processed & one unprocessed).

-Zeke

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 14:32

Quote:

Tony,
It's so strange though. I copied a CD of my parent's trip to italy over to the touch as a test, and every photo worked fine.

Then they all must have gotten pixel-rotated by a piece of software before they went on that CD.

Quote:

"My impression is that iTunes doesnt bother to read exif data at all. "

How can that be correct? Exif is the only place a jpeg can store that data.

As Tom said, it assumes another piece of software got its mitts on the file first, and did the actual pixel-rotation, and therefore it does not need to interpret any exif rotational data.

Quote:

Send me two pictures (one processed & one unprocessed).

Okay. Taking the photo now... I'll send you the unprocessed portrait photo. Hopefully the BBS will accept a 1.4 megabyte file...

The file is unaltered from the camera. I simply took the file directly off the memory card and zipped it up. It has never been opened in any application.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 14:35

By the way, with that attached photo:

- When I open it with the default Windows Vista application for opening JPG files ("Windows Photo Gallery"), it is sideways, because that application also doesn't auto-rotate the thing based on exif data.

- When I open it in IRFanView or Paint Shop Pro, it comes up portrait, because those applications *DO* auto-rotate based on exif data.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 14:43

And if you look at the Exif data, the file does say PORTRAIT- RIGHT TOP which is the correct tag. It would say something else if I'd held the camera the other way round.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 16:25

Interestingly, the iTouch's manual doesn't mention iTunes for photo syncing. For the PC, it only recommends "Adobe Photoshop Album 2.0 or later or Adobe Photoshop Elements 3.0 or later". It's possible that this free version of Album will work for you.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 16:26

Interesting! Trying now.

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 16:49

Tony,
I did the following:
Opened original file with Irfanview 3.98.
Chose 'Image:Information'

Opened original in Photoshop CS2 (opened correctly in portrait mode). Saved as <>_cs2.jpg.
Opened this copy in Irfanview.

My results:
Original file - opened with computer monitor sideways in Irfan 3.98.
Edited file - opened with computer monitor rightways round in Irfan 3.98.

File information in Irfan 3.98-
shows the original at 2048x1536.
shows the edited copy at 1536x2048.
(as does CS2)

Exif data in both files was identical (See attached tab-delimited .txt file).

That leaves this question: what tag does CS2 use to tell orientation that Irfanview 3.98 and iTunes ignore?

-Zeke

EDIT: I got Irfanview 4.1 and had the same orientation results as 3.98 (opened original in landscape, re-saved copy in portrait)

Posted by: mlord

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 17:02

This is the EXIF data of the original file:

Code:


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File Type = JPEG
File Size = 1477951
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@0x0001aa0=6816    :        <JPEG_SOI>
@0x0001aa2=6818    :          <JPEG_DQT> length 132
@0x0001b28=6952    :          <JPEG_SOF_0> length 17, 8 bits/sample, components=3, width=160, height=120
@0x0001b3b=6971    :          <JPEG_DHT> length 418 table class = 0 table id = 0
@0x0001cdf=7391    :          <JPEG_SOS> length 12  start of JPEG data, 3 components 19200 pixels
@0x000301c=12316   :        <JPEG_EOI> JPEG length 5502
@0x000301d=12317   :        #### End of JPEG thumbnail data for IFD 1, length 5502 ####
@0x000301d=12317   :      </IFD 1>
-0x0006aa1=27297   :    </JPEG_APP1>
@0x0006aa2=27298   :    <JPEG_DQT> length 132
@0x0006b28=27432   :    <JPEG_SOF_0> length 17, 8 bits/sample, components=3, width=2048, height=1536
@0x0006b3b=27451   :    <JPEG_DHT> length 418 table class = 0 table id = 0
@0x0006cdf=27871   :    <JPEG_DRI> length 4
@0x0006ce5=27877   :    <JPEG_SOS> length 12  start of JPEG data, 3 components 3145728 pixels
@0x0168d3d=1477949 :  <JPEG_EOI> JPEG length 1477951
-0x0168d3e=1477950 :  END OF FILE
@000000000=0       :  Start of JPEG baseline DCT compressed primary image [2048x1536] length 1477951
-0x0168d3e=1477950 :    End of JPEG primary image data
@0x0001aa0=6816    :  Start of JPEG baseline DCT compressed reduced-resolution image [160x120] length 5502 (IFD 1)
-0x000301d=12317   :    End of JPEG reduced-resolution image data
Number of images = 2
File Format = JPEG/APP1/TIFF/EXIF # with MakerNote (Panasonic [1])

Posted by: mlord

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 17:03

Hmmm.. that teensy tiny scroll box is useless, so here's the EXIF data again, without the [code] tag:

File Name = p1070837.jpg
File Type = JPEG
File Size = 1477951
@000000000=0 : <JPEG_SOI>
@0x0000002=2 : <JPEG_APP1> 0xffe1 length 27294, 'Exif'
@0x000000c=12 : TIFF(II=0x4949) magic=0x002a='*\0' ifd offset = 8 (+ 12 = 0x14/20)
@0x0000014=20 : <IFD 0> 11 entries starting at file offset 0x16=22
@0x0000016=22 : <0x010f= 271> Make [2 =ASCII 10] = @0x9e=158
@0x0000022=34 : <0x0110= 272> Model [2 =ASCII 8] = @0xa8=168
@0x000002e=46 : <0x0112= 274> Orientation [3 =SHORT 1] = 6 = '0,0 is right top'
@0x000003a=58 : <0x011a= 282> XResolution [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0xb0=176
@0x0000046=70 : <0x011b= 283> YResolution [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0xb8=184
@0x0000052=82 : <0x0128= 296> ResolutionUnit [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'pixels per inch'
@0x000005e=94 : <0x0131= 305> Software [2 =ASCII 10] = @0xc0=192
@0x000006a=106 : <0x0132= 306> DateTime [2 =ASCII 20] = @0xca=202
@0x0000076=118 : <0x0213= 531> YCbCrPositioning [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'co-sited'
@0x0000082=130 : <0x8769=34665> ExifIFDPointer [4 =LONG 1] = @0x1ae=430
@0x000008e=142 : <0xc4a5=50341> PrintIM [7 =UNDEFINED 208] = @0xde=222
@0x000009a=154 : **** next IFD offset 6682(+ 12 = 0x1a26/6694)
@0x000009e=158 : ============= VALUES, IFD 0 ============
@0x000009e=158 : Make = 'Panasonic\0'
@0x00000a8=168 : Model = 'DMC-FX9\0'
@0x00000b0=176 : XResolution = 72
@0x00000b8=184 : YResolution = 72
@0x00000c0=192 : Software = 'Ver.1.0 \0'
@0x00000ca=202 : DateTime = '2007:12:10 08:29:13\0'
@0x00001ae=430 : <EXIF IFD> (in IFD 0) 34 entries starting at file offset 0x1b0=432
@0x00001b0=432 : <0x829a=33434> ExposureTime [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x34c=844
@0x00001bc=444 : <0x829d=33437> FNumber [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x354=852
@0x00001c8=456 : <0x8822=34850> ExposureProgram [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'Normal'
@0x00001d4=468 : <0x8827=34855> ISOSpeedRatings [3 =SHORT 1] = 100
@0x00001e0=480 : <0x9000=36864> Version [7 =UNDEFINED 4] = '0220'
@0x00001ec=492 : <0x9003=36867> DateTimeOriginal [2 =ASCII 20] = @0x35c=860
@0x00001f8=504 : <0x9004=36868> DateTimeDigitized [2 =ASCII 20] = @0x370=880
@0x0000204=516 : <0x9101=37121> ComponentsConfiguration [7 =UNDEFINED 4] = 1,2,3,0 = 'YCbCr'
@0x0000210=528 : <0x9102=37122> CompressedBitsPerPixel [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x384=900
@0x000021c=540 : <0x9204=37380> ExposureBiasValue [10=SRATIONAL 1] = @0x38c=908
@0x0000228=552 : <0x9205=37381> MaxApertureValue [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x394=916
@0x0000234=564 : <0x9207=37383> MeteringMode [3 =SHORT 1] = 5 = 'Pattern'
@0x0000240=576 : <0x9208=37384> LightSource [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'unknown'
@0x000024c=588 : <0x9209=37385> Flash [3 =SHORT 1] = 16 = 'no flash - suppressed'
@0x0000258=600 : <0x920a=37386> FocalLength [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x39c=924
@0x0000264=612 : <0x927c=37500> MakerNote [7 =UNDEFINED 5724] = @0x3a4=932
@0x0000270=624 : <0xa000=40960> FlashPixVersion [7 =UNDEFINED 4] = '0100'
@0x000027c=636 : <0xa001=40961> ColorSpace [3 =SHORT 1] = 1 = 'sRGB'
@0x0000288=648 : <0xa002=40962> PixelXDimension [4 =LONG 1] = 2048
@0x0000294=660 : <0xa003=40963> PixelYDimension [4 =LONG 1] = 1536
@0x00002a0=672 : <0xa005=40965> Interoperability [4 =LONG 1] = @0x1a08=6664
@0x00002ac=684 : <0xa217=41495> SensingMethod [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'One-chip color area sensor'
@0x00002b8=696 : <0xa300=41728> FileSource [7 =UNDEFINED 1] = 3 = 'DSC'
@0x00002c4=708 : <0xa301=41729> SceneType [7 =UNDEFINED 1] = 1 = 'direct photo'
@0x00002d0=720 : <0xa401=41985> CustomRendered [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Normal'
@0x00002dc=732 : <0xa402=41986> ExposureMode [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Auto'
@0x00002e8=744 : <0xa403=41987> WhiteBalance [3 =SHORT 1] = 1 = 'Manual'
@0x00002f4=756 : <0xa404=41988> DigitalZoomRatio [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x1a00=6656
@0x0000300=768 : <0xa405=41989> FocalLengthIn35mmFilm [3 =SHORT 1] = 35mm
@0x000030c=780 : <0xa406=41990> SceneCaptureType [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Standard'
@0x0000318=792 : <0xa407=41991> GainControl [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'None'
@0x0000324=804 : <0xa408=41992> Contrast [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Normal'
@0x0000330=816 : <0xa409=41993> Saturation [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Normal'
@0x000033c=828 : <0xa40a=41994> Sharpness [3 =SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Normal'
@0x0000348=840 : **** next IFD offset 0
@0x000034c=844 : ============= VALUES, EXIF IFD ============
@0x000034c=844 : ExposureTime = 0.05 sec
@0x0000354=852 : FNumber = 2.8 APEX = 'f2.6'
@0x000035c=860 : DateTimeOriginal = '2007:12:10 08:29:13\0'
@0x0000370=880 : DateTimeDigitized = '2007:12:10 08:29:13\0'
@0x0000384=900 : CompressedBitsPerPixel = 4
@0x000038c=908 : ExposureBiasValue = 0 APEX
@0x0000394=916 : MaxApertureValue = 3 APEX = 'f2.8'
@0x000039c=924 : FocalLength = 5.8 mm
@0x00003a4=932 : <MakerNote> length 5724, ID scheme, 30 entries starting at offset 0x3b2/946
@0x00003a4=932 : MakerNoteId = 'Panasonic'
@0x00003b2=946 : <0X0001= 1> Quality [ 3=SHORT 1] = 2 = 'Fine'
@0x00003be=958 : <0X0002= 2> TAG_0X0002 [ 7=UNDEFINED 4] = 0,1,0,3
@0x00003ca=970 : <0X0003= 3> WhiteBalance [ 3=SHORT 1] = 5 = 'Manual'
@0x00003d6=982 : <0X0007= 7> FocusMode [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1 = 'Auto'
@0x00003e2=994 : <0X000F= 15> SpotMode [ 1=BYTE 2] = 1,0 = 'Spot'
@0x00003ee=1006 : <0X001A= 26> StabilizerMode [ 3=SHORT 1] = 2 = 'Mode 1'
@0x00003fa=1018 : <0X001C= 28> Macro [ 3=SHORT 1] = 2 = 'Off'
@0x0000406=1030 : <0X001F= 31> PictureMode [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1 = 'undefined'
@0x0000412=1042 : <0X0020= 32> Audio [ 3=SHORT 1] = 2 = 'No'
@0x000041e=1054 : <0X0021= 33> TAG_0X0021 [ 7=UNDEFINED 5314] = @0x51a=1306
@0x000042a=1066 : <0X0022= 34> TAG_0X0022 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0
@0x0000436=1078 : <0X0023= 35> WhiteBalanceAdjust [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0 = '0'
@0x0000442=1090 : <0X0024= 36> FlashStrength [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0 = '0 EV'
@0x000044e=1102 : <0X0025= 37> TAG_0X0025 [ 7=UNDEFINED 16] = @0x19dc=6620
@0x000045a=1114 : <0X0026= 38> TAG_0X0026 [ 7=UNDEFINED 4] = 48,49,48,52 = '0104'
@0x0000466=1126 : <0X0027= 39> TAG_0X0027 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0
@0x0000472=1138 : <0X0028= 40> ColorMode [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1 = 'Off'
@0x000047e=1150 : <0X0029= 41> TAG_0X0029 [ 4=LONG 1] = 5809
@0x000048a=1162 : <0X002A= 42> TAG_0X002A [ 3=SHORT 1] = 4
@0x0000496=1174 : <0X002B= 43> TAG_0X002B [ 4=LONG 1] = 1
@0x00004a2=1186 : <0X002C= 44> Contrast [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Standard'
@0x00004ae=1198 : <0X002D= 45> NoiseReduction [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0 = 'Standard'
@0x00004ba=1210 : <0X002E= 46> TAG_0X002E [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1
@0x00004c6=1222 : <0X002F= 47> TAG_0X002F [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1
@0x00004d2=1234 : <0X0030= 48> TAG_0X0030 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 6
@0x00004de=1246 : <0X0031= 49> TAG_0X0031 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 2
@0x00004ea=1258 : <0X0032= 50> TAG_0X0032 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 0
@0x00004f6=1270 : <0X0033= 51> TAG_0X0033 [ 2=ASCII 20] = @0x19ec=6636
@0x0000502=1282 : <0X0034= 52> TAG_0X0034 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1
@0x000050e=1294 : <0X0035= 53> TAG_0X0035 [ 3=SHORT 1] = 1
@0x000051a=1306 : no next IFD offset used
@0x000051a=1306 : ============= VALUES, MakerNote ============
@0x000051a=1306 : TAG_0X0021 : length 5314 # UNDEFINED (not dumped, use -U)
@0x00019dc=6620 : TAG_0X0025 : length 16 # UNDEFINED (not dumped, use -U)
@0x00019ec=6636 : TAG_0X0033 = '9999:99:99 00:00:00\0'
@0x00019ff=6655 : </MakerNote>
@0x0001a08=6664 : <Interoperability SubIFD> 2 entries starting at file offset 0x1a0a=6666
@0x0001a0a=6666 : <0x0001= 1> InteroperabilityIndex [2 =ASCII 4] = 'R98'
@0x0001a16=6678 : <0x0002= 2> InteroperabilityVersion [7 =UNDEFINED 4] = '0100'
@0x0001a22=6690 : **** next IFD offset 0
@0x0001a25=6693 : </Interoperability SubIFD>
@0x0001a00=6656 : DigitalZoomRatio = 0
-0x0001a25=6693 : </EXIF IFD>
@0x00000de=222 : <PrintIM> Version 0250, size 208, 14 entries
@0x00000ee=238 : PIM_0X0001 = 16 00 16 00 |....| = 0x160016/1441814
@0x00000f4=244 : PIM_0X0002 = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x00000fa=250 : PIM_0X0003 = 64 00 00 00 |d...| = 0x64/100
@0x0000100=256 : PIM_0X0007 = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x0000106=262 : PIM_0X0008 = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x000010c=268 : PIM_0X0009 = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x0000112=274 : PIM_0X000A = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x0000118=280 : PIM_0X000B = ac 00 00 00 |....| = 0xac/172
@0x000011e=286 : PIM_0X000C = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x0000124=292 : PIM_0X000D = 00 00 00 00 |....| = 0/0
@0x000012a=298 : PIM_0X000E = c4 00 00 00 |....| = 0xc4/196
@0x0000130=304 : PIM_0X0100 = 05 00 00 00 |....| = 0x5/5
@0x0000136=310 : PIM_0X0101 = 01 00 00 00 |....| = 0x1/1
@0x000013c=316 : PIM_0X0110 = 80 00 00 00 |....| = 0x80/128
*0x0000142=322 : ---- End of values before end of PrintIM section
-0x00001ad=429 : </PrintIM>
@0x0001a25=6693 : </IFD 0>
@0x0001a26=6694 : <IFD 1> 8 entries starting at file offset 0x1a28=6696
@0x0001a28=6696 : <0x0103= 259> Compression [3 =SHORT 1] = 6 = 'Exif/old JPEG'
@0x0001a34=6708 : <0x0112= 274> Orientation [3 =SHORT 1] = 6 = '0,0 is right top'
@0x0001a40=6720 : <0x011a= 282> XResolution [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x1a8c=6796
@0x0001a4c=6732 : <0x011b= 283> YResolution [5 =RATIONAL 1] = @0x1a94=6804
@0x0001a58=6744 : <0x0128= 296> ResolutionUnit [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'pixels per inch'
@0x0001a64=6756 : <0x0201= 513> JPEGInterchangeFormat [4 =LONG 1] = @0x1aa0=6816
@0x0001a70=6768 : <0x0202= 514> JPEGInterchangeFormatLength [4 =LONG 1] = 5502
@0x0001a7c=6780 : <0x0213= 531> YCbCrPositioning [3 =SHORT 1] = 2 = 'co-sited'
@0x0001a88=6792 : **** next IFD offset 0
@0x0001a8c=6796 : ============= VALUES, IFD 1 ============
@0x0001a8c=6796 : XResolution = 72
@0x0001a94=6804 : YResolution = 72
@0x0001aa0=6816 : #### Start of JPEG thumbnail data for IFD 1, length 5502 ####
@0x0001aa0=6816 : <JPEG_SOI>
@0x0001aa2=6818 : <JPEG_DQT> length 132
@0x0001b28=6952 : <JPEG_SOF_0> length 17, 8 bits/sample, components=3, width=160, height=120
@0x0001b3b=6971 : <JPEG_DHT> length 418 table class = 0 table id = 0
@0x0001cdf=7391 : <JPEG_SOS> length 12 start of JPEG data, 3 components 19200 pixels
@0x000301c=12316 : <JPEG_EOI> JPEG length 5502
@0x000301d=12317 : #### End of JPEG thumbnail data for IFD 1, length 5502 ####
@0x000301d=12317 : </IFD 1>
-0x0006aa1=27297 : </JPEG_APP1>
@0x0006aa2=27298 : <JPEG_DQT> length 132
@0x0006b28=27432 : <JPEG_SOF_0> length 17, 8 bits/sample, components=3, width=2048, height=1536
@0x0006b3b=27451 : <JPEG_DHT> length 418 table class = 0 table id = 0
@0x0006cdf=27871 : <JPEG_DRI> length 4
@0x0006ce5=27877 : <JPEG_SOS> length 12 start of JPEG data, 3 components 3145728 pixels
@0x0168d3d=1477949 : <JPEG_EOI> JPEG length 1477951
-0x0168d3e=1477950 : END OF FILE
@000000000=0 : Start of JPEG baseline DCT compressed primary image [2048x1536] length 1477951
-0x0168d3e=1477950 : End of JPEG primary image data
@0x0001aa0=6816 : Start of JPEG baseline DCT compressed reduced-resolution image [160x120] length 5502 (IFD 1)
-0x000301d=12317 : End of JPEG reduced-resolution image data
Number of images = 2
File Format = JPEG/APP1/TIFF/EXIF # with MakerNote (Panasonic [1])

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 17:15

Originally Posted By: Ezekiel

Original file - opened with computer monitor sideways in Irfan 3.98.

Keep in mind that displaying the photo according to its EXIF tag is an *option* in irfanview. Make sure that you activated that option before assuming it's not making use of the tag.

It opens fine for me in irfanview, probably because I enabled that option.

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 17:36

Aaah, thanks - didn't know about that option in Irfanview.

-Zeke

EDIT: Well I think we're left at option 4: go have a taco and a beer and worry about something more fun.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 20:07

Originally Posted By: wfaulk

You're going to love this one.

It appearead at first as though this might be my solution. If I drag my example portrait photo (the one I attached earlier in this thread) into Photoshop Album 3.2, it seems to detect the exif rotation correctly and display it correctly on the screen.

Now, Album 3.2 doesn't let me synch directly to the ipod. But iTunes does detect the presence of PhotoShop Album and it says "hey, there's a photo in the Photoshop Album. Do you want to sync it?" and if I say yes, it wipes out all the other pictures on the ipod in favor of what's in my photoshop album, and synchs the correct photos from the photoshop album to the player. So far so good.

But when I view the pic on the ipod, it's sideways. Just like it would have been if I'd only used itunes by itself.

How about that? I used adobe's album-making software, which is specifically supported by apple for exactly this purpose, and synched based on that software, and they still got it wrong.

Now you guys can't get on my case for using this thing in a way it wasn't intended. And I can now say with much more conviction that this whole thing sucks big green drippy donkey balls.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 20:16

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Now you guys can't get on my case for using this thing in a way it wasn't intended. And I can now say with much more conviction that this whole thing sucks big green drippy donkey balls.

Actually, we can. Your still doing all of this on Windows... :-P

*runs and hides*

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 20:34

So you think that the Mac version of iTunes would magically interpret the Exif data, when the Windows version doesn't?

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 21:03

Originally Posted By: tfabris

So you think that the Mac version of iTunes would magically interpret the Exif data, when the Windows version doesn't?

While my poke was more of a joke, doing some testing shows some interesting things.

I just downloaded your attachment above, and preview opened it properly. Finder also shows the dimensions as 1536x2048. So while iTunes won't magically interpret the EXIF data, it looks like the underlying OS does. Now, if I tell iTunes to sync your photo out of a folder to my iPhone, it still shows up wrong. However, if I import that photo into iPhoto and sync it, the iPhone shows it properly oriented, and I never touched a rotate option inside iPhoto.

OS X has a lot of built in photo stuff at the OS level, including RAW support for the major vendors. It doesn't surprise me too much to see EXIF rotation data handled seamlessly, but it does surprise me that the handling didn't migrate to the iPhone/iPod touch OS X.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 21:05

If you do a Google search, you'll find a number of complaints about Apple not interpreting EXIF data properly in a number of instances, unfortunately.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 22:08

Quote:

if I import that photo into iPhoto and sync it, the iPhone shows it properly oriented, and I never touched a rotate option inside iPhoto.

Yes, I'd expect that. If iPhoto is interpreting the Exif data, and it also has a synch-to-iPhone option built in (instead of needing to run iTunes separately like us windows folks do), then yeah, I could see how it would be able to handle that transparently.

It's too bad the "Adobe Albums" thing didn't work in terms of rotation. Because it seemed like it would solve my other problem quite nicely. It would let me drag any photos I liked into albums, while leaving the original photo files alone. Adding the extra step of running iTunes to perform the final synch wouldn't have been a big deal.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 22:39

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Quote:

if I import that photo into iPhoto and sync it, the iPhone shows it properly oriented, and I never touched a rotate option inside iPhoto.

Nope. iPhoto doesn't talk to the iPhone for sending photos to the device. iTunes still does the sync to the device, it just reads the iPhoto albums list and uses some iLife API to pull everything over. My guess is that API is responsible for handing over the image rotated properly, based on the fact that iTunes even on a Mac reading photos out of a folder doesn't rotate properly.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 10/12/2007 22:42

(using the tfabris post count increase method)

Don't you still have a Mac around somewhere? Any particular reason you aren't using it as the iPod syncing machine? Being that you aren't using the iPod for music, it could be useful to just have a separate machine to sync to it for podcasts and such. Thats all I use my iPhone for on the media side, lots of Twit content and other podcasts, while the Karma is still my portable music player. The iTunes/iPod sync stuff for podcasts is pretty nice.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 01:16

Yes, I've got a mac mini still. It's connected to my TV, and it isn't the machine with all my pictures on it. I will see if iPhoto will let me synch the photos from my desktop machine in the basement across the network.

Question about using iPhoto as you suggest...

If I use iPhoto on the Mini to organize albums based on photos on the network fileshare, will it insist on writing back changes to those files, or will it clutter that remote directory with database/cache files and folders? Or will it leave the original files alone and keep its dirty little database and cache to itself?

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 02:42

Originally Posted By: tfabris

If I use iPhoto on the Mini to organize albums based on photos on the network fileshare, will it insist on writing back changes to those files, or will it clutter that remote directory with database/cache files and folders? Or will it leave the original files alone and keep its dirty little database and cache to itself?

Well, think of iPhoto and it's "dirty database" like the empeg. Your going to open iPhoto, drag in your folders of photos, and it's going to import them locally, into it's own directory structure and naming scheme, and create the database. The files on your desktop will not be touched, and won't even be referenced again.

There is another way too if you don't want the Mini storing copies. Open iPhoto, and go to Preferences. Untick "Copy items to the iPhoto Library" under Advanced, and iPhoto will just make links to all the files on your desktop computer. If you edit a photo in iPhoto, it leaves the original alone, and saves the edited copy locally inside the library. Move a file on the remote system, and the link will break, so keep that in mind. Database and cache files are all still kept on the Mac.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 04:35

That sounds like ideal behavior. I'm going to give it a shot. Thanks!

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 05:54

Oh, you're gonna REALLY love this one.

iPhoto works well for the generalized task of arranging some albums for going onto the iPod. I could drag the desired photos from my file share into iPhoto on the Mac, and they all showed up correctly, with iPhoto correctly interpreting the EXIF data and every single photo appeared in its correct orientation.

As you said, it leaves the source photos and folders clean, making its own database on the mac. Great, so far so good. I'm thinking this is going to be a good solution.

So I did this for several of my photo folders, a total of 345 pictures. Then went into iTunes on the Mac and hit "sync" and off it went. Cruised along, synched all the photos, then I look at the photos on the iPod and........

They are random. Only about half of the portrait photos are in proper orientation. The other half are sideways as I illustrated earlier in this thread.

Hm. Perhaps it's just as I feared and it's not interpreting the EXIF data at all, and the ones that are coming up correctly are ones that I'd somehow managed to pre-process and I don't remember doing it.

So I find some adjacent photos on the iPod, where some of them are in the correct orientation and the others are in the wrong orientation. And I look at the files back at the source on the PC.

*NONE* of the photos were preprocessed. All of them are identical, all of them were untouched original source photos. The EXIF "orientation" field is the same for all of them.

Just to prove it, I am attaching a ZIP file of two of the photos. On the iPod, one of these photos displays in the correct orientation, the other displays sideways. 484 displays correctly, 496 displays sideways.

Note that both of the photos display correctly in iPhoto on the Mac.

Also note that it's not an intermittency problem with the orientation sensor in the iPod; The photos that are wrong on the iPod are *ALWAYS* wrong, and the photos that are right on the iPod are *ALWAYS* right. I can spin and twist the iPod every which way and it does all the expected rotations of the images. It's just that the "bad" ones are always in exactly the wrong orientation, exactly as if the EXIF data had been ignored.

Can anyone see a difference in the two files zipped up here that might cause them to be interpreted differently by iPhoto/iTunes?

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 06:01

Also: "Random" is too strong of a word. They are in clustered groups. A couple dozen correct, a couple dozen wrong, then a couple dozen correct again. (not exact counts, I'm just giving a feel for how big the clusters are.) The two that I zipped up are from the edge of a cluster.

Posted by: mlord

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 12:00

You know, you could just stop wasting your time with all of that b0rken software and instead just auto-rotate (lossless) the JPG image data with any of a handful of free, open source programs.

Cheers

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 13:46

The two you zipped up showed up properly for me on my iPhone. I downloaded the zip, clicked and dragged the folder into iPhoto 08, and told iTunes to sync the new album it made of the folder. This is on Leopard as well, and iPhoto set to copy files into its own library.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:03

Tony didn't say if he did the copy-the-photo option or the reference-the-photo option. I wonder if he did the latter and when iTunes went to sync them, it grabbed the original photos without prejudice.

All this said, it does make sense to just freaking rotate the photos.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:31

Quote:

Tony didn't say if he did the copy-the-photo option or the reference-the-photo option.

I don't know the difference? How do you tell with iPhoto?

I did the following:

- Ran iPhoto on the Mac.
- On the mac, opened the network share of \\monkeybrains\c$ (my desktop PC in the basement).
- Dragged folders from the share onto iPhoto.
- iPhoto now has libraries of my photos.
- Closed iPhoto.
- Ran iTunes on the mac and said sync photos from the iPhoto libraries.

So which is that? Copy the photo or reference the photo?

Quote:

All this said, it does make sense to just freaking rotate the photos.

I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

As I just demonstrated, SOMETIMES the software gets it right. Now I want to figure out why and make it get it right all the time.

There's also the whole thing about where I'm the kind of guy who likes digging away at a good bug repro to find out exactly what causes it. There's something academically fascinating about this. Why does it work for everyone else and not for me?

But besides that, I don't want to batch-rotate my entire photo collection because there's some stuff in there that I don't want messed with at all. I don't want the original files touched in any way. For instance, the folders are full of scattered special sub-folders where I'm doing things like panorama stitches or stereo pairs, where an altered rotation will break it. I don't want to (and shouldn't have to) filter through all of those folders to separate out the stuff I don't want rotated. Yes, I know in the time I've messed with this I could have simply *done* that, but then there's the whole academic thing.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:40

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Quote:

Tony didn't say if he did the copy-the-photo option or the reference-the-photo option.

I don't know the difference? How do you tell with iPhoto?

Originally Posted By: drakino

There is another way too if you don't want the Mini storing copies. Open iPhoto, and go to Preferences. Untick "Copy items to the iPhoto Library" under Advanced,

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:41

Also, what OS X version and iLife version do you have?

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:41

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Quote:

All this said, it does make sense to just freaking rotate the photos.

I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.

No argument.

The problem is that once you dig through all of this, you're going to find that the problem is that the software is broken. And since it's not open-source, you're not going to be able to do anything about it, except, maybe file a bug report. But you could do that now. And then you're left with photos that still don't display properly. To which the only thing to do is either wait for Apple to fix it or rotate them yourself.

If you're really inclined to pursue it, though, here's what I'd do:

Find two photos, one of which works right, one of which doesn't. Verify that what happens to each photo does so consistently, even through separate uploads of the same file. Then strip the exif headers and create new, ultra-simple ones. Try again. My bet is that something in one of the exif headers is confusing the Apple software.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:53

Quote:

Also, what OS X version and iLife version do you have?

I don't know, it's just whatever gets given to me through the latest internet updates after I bought the iMac. I always apply those patches. Anyway, it's all at home and I'm at work...

iPhoto gave me an *AD* for iLife, but didn't offer to actually upgrade iPhoto that came with the Mini. It said I had to buy iLife to get the upgrade. So I don't have iLife, I've got whatever the latest iPhoto is that comes with the PowerPC Mac Minis, plus the online updates.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 14:54

Quote:

Find two photos, one of which works right, one of which doesn't. Verify that what happens to each photo does so consistently, even through separate uploads of the same file.

Yeah, that sounds like a good diagnostic step.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 15:07

iLife is the name for iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, iMovie and some other stuff depending on version. If you have iPhoto, you have iLife of some version. The ad was likely for a newer version, so thats an indicator you have 06 at the newest.

And some reason your response is making me think of "Do you see a big blue E, or a big green N? Big black nothing? Ok..." :-)

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 15:13

Quote:

so thats an indicator you have 06 at the newest.

Okay, so I have to *buy* iLife 08 to see if it fixes the exif rotation?

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 15:15

Hm. Seen at Apple's site:

"Apple - Support - Downloads - iPhoto 6.0.6

This update to iPhoto addresses issues associated with EXIF data compatibility and Photocasting."

I'll see what the exact version is when I get home. Interesting.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 16:18

[q] doesn't work any more. I changed all three of your [q]'d posts to [quote]s.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 16:32

I assumed Tom would get around to fixing that soon enough, so left them. $\:\)$

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 17:30

It's not like [quote]s will get broken.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 18:47

Originally Posted By: tfabris

I assumed Tom would get around to fixing that soon enough, so left them. $\:\)$

If you enter a [q] now, before I get them fixed, they will remain broken. What happens is that the submit parser replaces the [q] with the actual HTML before submitting it to the database. This is to have a one time hit on a search and replace on the post, instead of having to search and replace every tag every time someone looks at a post.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 19:12

When I downloaded the two pictures you just posted they were BOTH sideways on the xp image viewer and on the itouch. When I rotated them both on image viewer they were both correct on itouch.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 23:07

Right, because the XP image viewer doesn't do anything with the EXIF data. When you rotated them in the image viewer, it actually altered the source files.

You. Should. Not. Have. To. Do. That.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 11/12/2007 23:09

Originally Posted By: tfabris

"Apple - Support - Downloads - iPhoto 6.0.6

This update to iPhoto addresses issues associated with EXIF data compatibility and Photocasting."

Turns out that what comes with the Mac Mini is merely iPhoto 5.0.4.

All of the downloads of newer versions that exist on the Apple site all require 6.something to be already there before it'll upgrade. So I'm scrod.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 12/12/2007 01:16

Quote:

So I'm scrod.

What's that? Pluperfect subjunctive?

I thought Bitt was the grammar guy...

$\:\)$

tanstaafl.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way? - 12/12/2007 04:08

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Right, because the XP image viewer doesn't do anything with the EXIF data. When you rotated them in the image viewer, it actually altered the source files.

You. Should. Not. Have. To. Do. That.

Ah, Thanks Tony, me not so smart when it comes to some of this stuff.

Syncing photos to ipod- Is there a better way?