BBQ Grill Advice

My propane grill is on its way out after about a 5 year run. Rather than tossing another $300-$500 at another grill that will break within 5 years, I'm looking at jumping up to the next price tier in the hopes of finding something that will cook better and last longer. Here are my criteria so far:

• I definitely want a stainless steel grill, and hopefully one that's stainless all around and not just on the cooking surfaces.
• I'm leaning towards natural gas. Even though I haven't run the gas line yet, I'm sick of switching propane tanks and running out at inopportune times, so it seems worth the time/effort to run the line.
• I'm intrigued by the idea of infrared cooking, but not completely sold on it. Has anyone ever cooked on an infrared grill? I've also seen a few that have an infrared burner in addition to the regular gas burners, that would seem like the best of both worlds, but jacks up the price by quite a bit.

In my research so far, I've noticed that the Weber Summit series gets good reviews on durability, quality of the stainless steel construction, etc, and Weber is known for standing behind their products. They have models with built-in smoker boxes and rotisseries, which are nice-to-haves but by no means requirements.

The Napoleon Prestige II series jumped out at me because of the availability of an infrared burner for quick cooking and searing. The PT600RBI in particular looks like it might meet my needs, but there isn't much out there in the way of user experience.

Those are the most promising leads I have so far, but if anyone has a model/brand they like, I'd love to hear about it.

No advice, but I'll be up that way at the end of the month, and I'd like to volunteer to help test. I'll bring the steak.

My father in law lives on Cape Cod with in walking distance to the beach. His grill sit out on the deck year round, it has never been covered - that would impact his ability to cook a hotdog in middle of winter if he so wished. He has over time replaced various parts as they wear out or rust, bit like the flavor bar (thinish steel triangle bit righ over the flames and right under the dripping grease), the grill surface (cast iron ) and the ignitor.
Recently, after 10+ years, he replaced it, not because it was broken, but his daughter was getting married and he wanted a nicer one for when guest where over - either that or he was spending enough on the wedding and dammit he was going to get something out of it! Plus it provided an opportunity to upgraded to a bigger grill. He scavenged it for spare parts which he passed to me as I had an identical one, but purchased 5 years later.

His 10+ year old grill, for which spares can still be purchased, was a Weber Genesis(?) Silver. I might have the exact model wrong, but it was a two burner. He moved up to a three burner model with a silver top to it - not sure what model.

Given how well his original stood up to the salt air and the availability of parts I would strongly recommend a Weber.
As for switching propane tanks, either buy a spare tank or swipe you neighbor's

Keep in mind that natural gas doesn't burn as hot as propane.

Also, steel grates have a tendency to stick, stainless included. I would strongly suggest heavy cast iron grates, which also retain heat better. If you're not willing to wipe down the grates with oil once the grill has cooled down (not really very difficult or time consuming), I think they make enameled cast iron grates, which I would suggest over steel.

I just bought a Napoleon PT450RB (Prestige II, 3 burner model) in May. It's been quite nice so far. The parts are all very good quality, though the cart is not stainless. There's no reason to believe it won't last forever though. I also opted for one of the porcelain coated hoods rather than the stainless so that it won't discolor. It's one of the only grill manufacturers still making any of their parts in North America (Canada specifically in this case).

I'm not 100% sold on the way they've laid out their burners, but they work quite well and I'm not sure anyone else does anything better right now.

I very much dislike the Weber models that feature controls on top - the get in the way of placing things on the shelf top. I'm also not a fan of the width-wise orientation of the burners on some of their models. I like front-to-back myself, so I can opt to light up the left, middle or right side of the grill (or left and right leaving the middle area for roasting). My next door neighbor has a Weber (controls on top) and I believe he quite likes it.

I opted to skip the IR within the main cavity and will more than likely get an IR side burner. IR is definitely kick-ass for cooking steak. I didn't want to sacrifice any of the interior cavity, so I was happy to learn Napoleon offers IR on the side. Knowing this I purchased the grill without a traditional side burner (which unless you intend to boil a lot of water is generally useless).

The best burner arrangement I've seen on a smaller grill is on my mother-in-law's 2-burner pedestal Ducane. This is a model from before Weber bought them and turned them into a discounted brand and moved manufacturing to China. The stainless burners are likely as thick-walled as on my Napoleon except instead of just going straight back (and to one side like on the Nap), they curve at the back and come back toward the front, making a sort of loop. This gives coverage as if there were 4 burners. The tube has gas holes along its top as opposed to along two sides like the Napoleon, so there isn't as much flame from each linear inch. But I love the way it cooks. The grill is at least 10 years old and other than needing a new powder coat and ignitor, it's in amazing shape.

From looking at all sorts of brands in person, but not actually using them, it doesn't appear you get much more when you jump up huge sums of money. Diminishing returns indeed. And by huge sums I'm talking about multiple thousands. I wasn't very impressed by DCS nor Lynx for instance. Napoleon and Weber offer decent value for the money IMO.

I love my rotisserie and wouldn't get a grill that could not accommodate one. I love cooking whole chickens, pork loins and pineapple this way. Mmmm. My grill does have a back rotisserie burner. Using the bottom burners isn't the same, though it can also work.

I just bought a smoker tube and some wood chips a couple of weeks ago and I've been eager to give them a try. Ok, now I have to run because I'm getting really hungry.

The porcelain enamel cast iron grids are found on a lot of lower-priced grills. Cast iron does retain heat well, but the porcelain will chip off sooner rather than later.

Also, because of frequent brass brush use and scraping, cast iron grids are a lot harder to keep nicely seasoned than a cast iron pan, IMO. Also, don't season with olive oil. Use vegetable oil or shortening. Olive oil will be stickier and go rancid much faster - it's also going to smoke more and it's a lot more expensive

You'll probably have to replace the cast iron grids sooner than quality stainless ones, even with seasoning. Invariably, they will rust out.

+1 for cast iron grates and for rotisserie compatibility. While you're at it, a "rotisserie burner" is a clever feature (my grill has one on the back wall). If you want to make gyros or something, this means the heat comes from the back while the drippings go down into a pan or whatever. The pan doesn't need to sit in the fire.

As to brand and longevity, I ended up with a no-name model from Lowe's. I figure it will rust out or otherwise crap out in five years, after which I'll get another one. I looked at several much more expensive grills and wasn't very impressed with the differences. They're wider, but that's about it, yet the prices can be in the thousands of dollars. No thanks.

If I *really* need to grill more stuff at once, I'll go get a charcoal Webber or something else cheap.

(And for steak, I'd do that inside, where I could get a nice char with my cast iron skillet, and 18K BTU stovetop burner, and then transfer to the oven to finish it.)

There are indeed differences between cheaper grills and a high end brand such as Lynx or Firemagic. We have a Lynx and aside from a faulty igniter, it has been great. Higher end models generally will buy you much better construction and materials and more features like better and more stainless steel, infrared burners, built in lights, smoker trays etc. It is of course up to you whether such things are worth it to you.

Keep in mind when shopping that not all stainless steel is the same. Basically, if a magnet sticks to it, it will likely rust at least superfically on you if you keep it outside. Most cheaper stainless steel grills are made of a 410 stainless or similar which lacks the nickel in other stainless such as 304 which is usually used in more expensive grills and offers better rust resistance. If you keep your grill outdoors, make sure you by one which is 100% stainless, because the rust will definitely find its way to the steel parts and rust out prematurely. Really it's all relative anyway; given the right environment any stainless steel can rust. The grills you listed don't mention what type stainless they use for the outer construction but it is probably 410.

If you want it to last it's also better to have a cast burner made of brass or stainless (304) rather than a stamped burner.

As I've said we have a Lynx grill which has an infrared burner for rotisserie cooking. We don't do rotisserie cooking too much but I can say it cooks very evenly and quickly and would defintely recommend it. Even the motor housing and skewer are by the way 304 stainless.

So really it boils down to how much you are willing to spend and how long you want it to last. Despite what others have said, there are real differences between the $1K+ models and cheaper ones, but they definitely aren't for everyone.

Stu

I'm not sure anyone said that. What I did say was that I was not impressed with the differences between a Napoleon (let's say one that's about $2000-2500) and the DCS and Lynx which cost upwards of $5000 (or 6 or 7). They're nice grills, I just didn't appreciate the value of the extra expenditure.

The Napoleon grids and burners (on at least Prestige II and above) are all 304. The grills are warranted for 10 years at no cost for parts and lifetime at 50% parts cost.

Okay well from personal experience, the Home Depot and Lowes specials are not too great. They look nice in the store, but then once you've had them a while you are staring at rust everywhere. Given the choice between a bigger grill of lower quality and a smaller one with better construction I would go for the better, smaller one for the same price.

I guess Lynx stuff has really gone up too, because ours was nowhere near $5K. Yikes! Still, they're great products.



I saw that but there's no mention as to what the body is made from which definitely makes a difference.

Stu

BTW, you can't buy any of the Prestige II + Napoleon products at big-box stores. They're only sold at the same specialty shops that sell the Lynx products.

You can get a number of Weber products at the big-box places, but not the higher end stuff either.

My Napoleon doesn't have a stainless cart, but the Prestige V models are all stainless. Though I'm not sure if any are available with wheels.

Take a look at Lynx pricing at a pretty competitive store here in Ontario... They have decent Napoleon pricing too.

The Lynx carts are great and I do like the idea of cast brass burners. But as you can see, the prices here really (really) suck.

If you treat your cast iron well, you won't need to use the brass brush on it, which is part of treating it well. If you make sure to put vegetable oil or shortening (shortening probably makes more sense) on it every time you finish using it, and you put a light coat of vegetable oil on it before you use it, you will have virtually no sticking.

And if you season it well, it shouldn't rust unless you leave it outside unused for months at a time. (Yes, this means you probably ought to bring the grates in in the winter.) That heavy buildup of carbon that is seasoned cast iron is an excellent rust protector.


Who would do that? Are you speaking from experience?

I have experience from olive oil build-up on my regular pans. I just thought I'd mention that bit because I frequently see "or olive oil" when people recommend how to season cast iron.

Olive oil shouldn't really even be used for high heat cooking, though I am definitely guilty of that.

Cool... what brings you to Pennsyltucky?



Yeah, they retain heat better, but also take longer to preheat, which will end up wasting a lot of energy considering my general usage pattern is to preheat, throw a few things on, cook for a few minutes, then turn the grill off. I also know I'll be too lazy/forgetful to treat cast iron grates properly. I do worry about getting a good sear on stainless, but the availability of an infrared burner for quick searing should narrow the gap a bit.

At this point, I'm really leaning toward the Napoleon PT600RBI, though I do wish the cart were stainless instead of galvanized. I can't seem to find anything in the same price range with a stainless cart and an infrared burner, but I'm still looking.

Making some business visits in the Pittsburgh area and in southwest New York.

Nearly three years later and we finally some extra cash to spend on a grill. Looking around at the newer products, I've read that Weber's switched to lower-quality 430 stainless for even their high-end grills, so it's looking like one of the Napoleon models is the best fit -- at least they still use 304 stainless, and though I can't afford the $4k+ for one with a stainless cart, they seem to have a great warranty that should cover any corrosion that does happen.

Bruno, how's your Napoleon holding up? Right now I'm leaning toward this Prestige Pro model (around $1600 from Amazon) with the infrared side burner.

The one concern I have is that conversion kits don't seem to exist for them (or any other Napoleon grills), which means I'm stuck if we move and need to change fuel sources in the future. (It seems like conversion kits exist for lower-end models but not as much for the higher-end, which seems counterintuitive to me.) Otherwise, the price and feature set seems ideal for us.

Anyone else familiar with any other high quality grills for under $2K?

I wouldn't buy a Napoleon again. The price is all in the warranty, not the quality and materials, IMO.

I don't like the burner design on mine. 3 burners with the left and right being an upside down L shape. This size grill should have 4 burners, full-stop.

The heat is anything but even across the grill top. The burners have clogged up far too easily as well. I'm going to need to clean out each individual orifice in a couple of weeks.

The grill (stainless) is decent, but nothing you won't find on other products, except for the novel-looking wave pattern (which does absolutely nothing for you).

The paint on the bottom half of the grill enclosure gets soft with heat and will peel away, even though they tell you to clean it with a grill brush. I've had the bottom replaced already and I'll probably have it replaced again this year. They claim the paint is not supposed to come off.

The electronic lighter they used on mine (AAA battery powered) is super-super cheap. Needs to be replaced already and I'm not sure if it's covered under warranty. The worst part is that I can't see a way to replace it without dismantling most of the BBQ.

The cart has only a stainless door on mine - the sides aren't stainless. The whole thing goes together with little tabs that you bend and a few sheet metal screws - feels really flimsy.

Honestly, what they sell for $1500 is what I'd consider fair at $500 without the 20 year warranty (maybe only 2).

IMO, the Weber models I've seen are built with much higher quality. Though not the model with the knobs on top - that's the most asinine design decision I've seen on a grill.

I'd rather spend $3000 and get something that won't make me cringe with regret each time I use it. It's one of the only purchases I've made that I regret.

ALso, while some of it is "made in Canada" that's really more of a marketing gimmick than truth. Frankly, I don't care where it's made so long as it's top-shelf - and the Napoleans aren't.

That's disappointing. The problem is that there don't seem to be many other quality options even if I stretched our budget and spent $3k -- there seems to be a big gulf between the Weber/Napoleon high end models and the lower-end models from the "luxury" brands like Lynx, Fire Magic, and DCS.

I'll try to read up more on the Weber Summit series again -- the change to lower quality steel scared me away.

Ok... in the price range you and Bruno are discussing, I guess this isn't the sort of thing you're looking for...

tanstaafl.

Preaching to the choir man!

Grill prices are most definitely out of whack when compared to kitchen ranges.

Yeah, I've basically had my fill of disposable grills. I know nothing I buy, no matter how much I spend, is going to last a lifetime, but when a grill with a 25 year warranty can be had for $1500 versus spending a couple hundred for one I'll be carting off to the landfill in a few years, it's not hard to do the math and figure out which one's a better investment.

We also get a *lot* of use out of our grill -- much more than our oven or even our cooktop. Spending this much on a grill would definitely make it the most expensive appliance in our house, so you better bet it's going to get anchored down with a security camera trained on it 24/7!

430 is less expensive than 304, mostly for the lack of nickel, but that doesn't make it a lower quality material. The design and workmanship is more important.

I wouldn't pass up a BBQ just because it was built with 430.

I don't know anything about gas grills, but I replaced my 12 year old Weber Kettle with a new one last summer. The old one is still in great shape, despite being out in the AZ weather unprotected for over a decade. My main reasons for getting the new one were the convenience upgrades: hinged grates, new ash catching system, a lid that seals because it wasn't dented after being bounced around the patio during a monsoon, etc. There isn't any difference in build quality from my old one.

The only issue I had with it was a scratch in the paint of the bottom bowl, apparently from shipping. Weber sent a replacement in less than a week.

Like I said, I don't know anything about their gas grills. However, based on my experience with the new Kettle, I'm thinking about upgraded my 12 year old Rocky Mountain Smoker for a newer (and the larger) one.

The barbeque grill that I've had my sights on for a while is actually a tandoor. It's priced competitively with high-end grills, and it's a classic: civilization's very first convection oven. Still, seems a bit big. And would I really use it? Really?

Damn, I'd be making naan every day. as long as someone else did the mixing of the flour.

Cooking at 650F just seems so counter intuitive to what barbequing is that it makes my head hurt trying to figure it out.

Since I'm from Texas, I of all people should be making the distinction between grilling and smoking, with only the latter deserving of the term barbeque.

I've also considered purchasing a dedicated smoker of some kind, but doing that properly is a labor of love. Like 24+ hours of love. And I only need to drive ten minutes to a wide selection of restaurants who have that love... for sale.

Grilling, though, is all about bringing the heat, and nothing says heat quite like a tandoor.

(FYI, you can bake perfectly wonderful naan in your regular home oven. Naan is pretty much regular bread dough except you're replacing some of the water with yogurt. I've made it several times. Very yummy. Or I suppose you could buy off-the-shelf naan and get yourself a trousers press. Top Gear FTW.)

I usually grill using indirect heat and at a slower pace also. It usually pisses my friends off because it smells so good for so long before they can eat. That torture in itself is worth making them wait.

Smoking really isn't that labor intensive at all, if you have the right equipment. I usually throw the longer cooking things (like pork butts or large brisket/turkey) in the smoker over night and let them go for 10+ hours without checking on them. After that it is more checking on the coals to make sure there are still enough, checking on the smoke ring, and checking on the water level.

You can computer control a smoker. Grilling is a lot more challenging.

What is going wrong with these things that makes you need a new one? The last grill I bought was a few hundred dollars. I have had it for five years now and there isn't anything wrong except I need to clean it The performance isn't the greatest thing ever but it still functions like when I got it.

I do keep it in the garage when not in use so it doesn't get wet. My biggest annoyance is I want one that is connected to the city natural gas but I need a patio or a deck to put it on first

I've read that 430 will corrode over time, whereas 304 basically won't. If I'm spending this much, I basically want a guarantee that I won't have to buy another grill for at least 10-15 years -- that's why the ones with the higher grade steel and 25 year warranty were appealing.

I agree that for true barbecue you need to use a smoker, and I'm not deluding myself into thinking the smoker boxes that you can use with some gas grills are going to do the job. However, my typical use case for my grill is throwing some steaks, burgers, hot dogs, and veggies on and wanting results in 10-15 minutes instead of 12 hours.

My current grill handles this job fine, but it's old and rusty and falling apart. I have to keep it outside year round since we don't have any extra room in the garage, though I do keep it covered. My hope is that I can spend a bit more now and not have to send one off to the landfill in 3-5 years.

I'm pretty sure everyone here is talking about gas-fired grills and not charcoal, but it's worth pointing out that no steel will stand up to ash and moisture, as that generates potassium hydroxide, which is very caustic.

This actually explains quite a lot... I'd never read that before, even with all the grill research I've done over the years. Good to know. Another reason for regular cleaning/maintenance.

I switched from gas back to charcoal and have been delighted with the "Big Green Egg" ceramic grill. I also switched to "lump" charcoal rather than briquettes and that has made a huge difference.

It's slightly less convenient than gas, but the food tastes better, it can be used at high temperature or as a low-temperature smoker, and they have extraordinary temperature control.

Jim

Big Green Egg is on my wish list for those two reasons. High heat and low heat smoking with amazing insulation for temperature control. Great build quality from the units I've inspected in show rooms.

I built my own smoker. I use a PID controller that I put together for cooking en sous-vide to control the temperature.

Here's a gallery of the build

I've made some amazing pulled pork on it. It was a lot cheaper than purchasing a BGE. It probably doesn't work quite as well, but I'm okay with that.

What I'd really like to do is make a sous-vide controller!!! How did yours turn out? Would you share the details?

Also... are you aware of the ridiculously expensive cookbook called "Modernist Cuisine - The Art and Science of Cooking"? In this book, the authors dispel the "plateau" myths about pork shoulder BBQ. As anyone who understands some thermodynamics probably suspected, the majority of the "plateau" is due to dehydration, not collagen formation. The authors recommend a combination of smoking with sous-vide for the best possible pork shoulder. First sous-vide at 160F until the meat is in equilibrium (probably two days for a large shoulder). Then, smoke for approximately 2-3 hours. Apparently, additional smoking did not have an affect.

Pretty cool idea that I'd like to try!

I've never seen anyone using a sous-vide on BBQ Pit Masters...

I'm waiting for it to become available at my local library.

Are you aware that the author is Nathan Myhrvold, of Microsoft (and, later, patent troll) fame?

Reason enough to avoid the book at any price.

What a lovely, knee-jerk response. The guy may be a douche when it comes to patent trollery, and I do hate Microsoft, but he's an accomplished chef, and he put together a world-class team of people to assist with the book. I'd love to have the set just for the photography it contains.

Sorry, we all have to draw the line somewhere.

In regards to patents and douchery, "Don't hate the player, hate the game" is a poor excuse - everyone has a choice whether or not to play.

So, it's four years later than I was hoping, but I finally ordered an infrared grill that fits what I was looking for at a decent price point.

I went with the Saber SS-500. Saber is apparently a company that was spun-off from Char-Broil a couple years ago to sell their higher-end infrared grills, and I'm pretty impressed with the specs and reviews I've read so far.

The main selling points for me compared to other ones I looked at in previous years are the use of 304 stainless steel for almost the entire grill (including the cart) and the availability of a cheap and easy-to-install natural gas conversion kit. The one negative from one of the reviews is that the cart surfaces are a bit thin, but it's more important to me that they're rust-resistant than heavy-duty anyway.

I was a bit wary of going with a company that's only been around a couple of years, but the warranty seems pretty solid (limited lifetime on the steel, 10 years on most of the rest of it) and based on the comments here, it seems like some of the higher-end grills are just

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's the best I'm going to find for $1400, so I gave it a shot. I'll try to post an update here with my impressions once I give it a test drive.

Very nice looking grill! I'm pretty jealous. The best we're able to do is try cleaning up the grill the previous homeowner left for some reason I'm going to toss the grill plates and flavorizer bars, scrub down every surface, and replace those parts. Hopefully it'll turn out ok.

Yeah, I squeezed an extra few years out of the life of our grill by giving it a good, thorough cleaning and adjusting my expectations for preheating and cooking times. It's now at the point where I'd have to start replacing parts, so I'm glad I found something that seems like it'll last without breaking the bank. (Not that $1400 for a gas grill is anything to sneeze at, but the market a few years ago looked like I was going to have to shell out twice that to get an infrared grill with all-stainless construction.)

May I benefit from your research and ask you what the deal is with this infrared cooking?

Sure. The main advantage I'm looking forward to is less drying out of meats and vegetables. Standard gas grills cook with hot air convection, which can take moisture away from your food. Using infrared radiation to directly cook the food means less dry air taking away the food's moisture, and because the flame is protected by the emitter plate (made of stainless steel on the Saber grills, though some units use ceramic tile) there are supposedly no flare-ups.

They're also supposed to preheat much faster, get to higher temperatures, and be more fuel efficient -- though I'm sure Saber's claim of 30% more efficient is overstated marketingspeak.

Ah, that makes some sense. I personally dislike when the flames get to the food, so that's appealing.

I do have an infrared cooking device. I have that CharBroil oil-less turkey fryer, and it seems to follow the same principals. A ring of flame basically heats up an inner metal tube where you place the basket holding your turkey. I was very surprised how well it worked, and it made a juicy bird with crispy skin. I might have to look at some infrared grills when/if this second-hand one craps out. Thanks for sharing the info!


On a completely different note: I went to a burger place recently that did everything wrong. It had an open kitchen so I could see the guy at the burger station. He was working on about 5 burgers, and I swear that each one got flipped at least 20 times, and he used his spatula to squeeze every last drop of juice out of the patties. He seemed to purposefully get the flames as high as possible, completely enveloping the burgers for extended periods of time.

I turned and walked out before ordering anything.

Suggestions? Try grilling some forum spam on it... this post isn't so palatable.