Bad oil change - how bad is it?

I got my oil changed on Friday, drove home and parked my car for the weekend. Drove the two minutes down to the BART(regional heavy rail) which is two miles from my house, and back yesterday. I noticed that it was visibly leaking oil when I got home, and moved the car back 10 feet to verify. When I started it up, it made a slight chattering sound from the engine. I pulled the dip stick and it's dry - nothing at all. I retraced the steps down to bart, and there's a line of oil from my house, to the puddle left in my parking space, and most of the way back up the hill.

I'll call the oil change place today, but I'm not sure how to tell if there's any permanent damage. Should I let the place put fresh oil in and see how it goes? Should I insist on taking it to a different mechanic at their expense? Presumably they'll want to see it first. Is permanent damage to the engine likely? (it's a 2.2L honda engine in a '01 Prelude)

While I’m not a mechanic I have been a gear head my entire life. Here’s my opinion: At the least this has added thousands of miles of ware to your motor. At worst you will need a total rebuild of all bearings, crank work, cam, cylinder bore, new pistons, etc….

This may end in a lawsuit so I would document everything. I’d video tape the oil trail, make sure you have proof of the oil change and have it towed too a good mechanic who can run compression tests and oil pressure test (especially at idle). There are also oil tests that can determine how much metal is in the oil which will indicate wear. They also need to document where the leak was and that it was the oil change companies fault.

I would NOT take it back to the oil change company since they will say it’s not their fault and you somehow damaged the motor. An independent mechanic is the way to go.

Good luck.

Since this is leaking while it is running I'd guess that they pulled the old filter off, the gasket stuck to the motor, they put the new filter on and now it has two gaskets and is not sealing correctly.

Towing it to my own mechanic is probably the way to go. Frustrating to say the least. I've been going for years and it's the most convenient around by far.

It's probably fine, once you take care of the leak. If it was the oil filter gasket, then the engine still had enough oil for 2 miles of travel. But if it was leaking from the drain plug, then it might have been completely dry, which could cause trouble much more quickly.

If you'd rather just avoid all of the stress, then get a new filter and drain plug washer installed, and refill the oil.

Then do a very unAmerican thing, and forget about it.

Cheers

I have known people who worked at those quickie lube places. I would never trust my car with any of them.

I once saw them drive a car into the pit. Well, just one wheel, but still, it was a good ten minutes of entertainment watching half the staff sit on the opposite corner to try and drive it back out.

A friend of mine once caught them trying to put transmission fluid in his engine instead of oil. I don't think there was any malice, but they're teenagers who just don't pay any attention.

Hopefully he can just forget about it and not have to pluck down thousands for a new motor.

I always do the Boy Scout thing and be prepared

Camshaft wear might have occured that could cause problems that won't show up until a few thousand more miles. Unless you were planning on buying a new car soon I think you should do all you can to seek reimbursement.

Actually, your continuous trail of oil proves that it wasn't running dry (still had oil), so the engine is undoubtedly just fine. Sure, maybe now it's only good for 300,000 miles rather than 320,000 miles, but that's not worth stressing out over.

Cheers

Man. This is the *only* case where one might wish they'd been putting in those PTFE additive products...

My first thought was they've forgotten to put the drain plug back in, but even they'd have noticed that straight away.

I'm with Mark on the fact that the engine is probably OK. That said I would not drive it anywhere or start it any more if it's rattling or making different noises. Had a quick look to see if you can see where it's coming from?

Has the oil pressure light come on?

For an oil change they really should have only needed to touch three things. Drain plug, oil filter and rocker cover filler.

I'm now going to say oil filter isn't tight.

Without pulling down the engine, you probably really won't know until it breaks (if it actually ever does).

I called the place that did it and they were less than understanding - I said I'd like to have it towed to my mechanic, they said I should drive it there. I repeated myself, they repeated themselves. The peace of mind of having it looked at is worth it to me even the oil change shop never pays for it.

I called my mechanic and apologized for going to such an establishment, and they were quite gracious about it (Berkeley Minicar for anyone in need of a Honda mechanic in Berkeley). I'll spend my evening getting it towed to their parking lot, and hear more tomorrow or the next day.

I've always thought I should learn to change my own oil, maybe this will motivate me.

I've never quite understood the point of those quickie lube places. Surely you just take the car to a decent mechanic once a year for the programmed service and have done with it? Does the oil really need changing that frequently?

Some people advocate changing the oil a lot more frequently than the car manufacturers do (like every 2-3k miles). Though of course the people that advocate that are typically the sort of people who do their own oil changes anyway.

I figured they would immediately take a defensive stand. They know the damage they might have caused. I would suppose on the flip side they probably get a lot of people that blame them for all their car’s issues – “you were the last one to touch it.”

Hopefully the “chattering sound” was just a collapse lifter from no oil pressure and not a rod or main bearing. Unfortunately a rod bearing is the most likely thing to go first. The dealership should be able to tell by the oil pressure and any metal in the pan if you’ve got real issues. A spun rod bearing can really ruin your day. Especially when it breaks the rod and the rod ends up going through your block. You can usually tell if it’s a rob bearing when the chattering is loudest while cruising (no load or drag).

I just recently rebuilt a diesel motor because of a spun bearing, and 20 years of wear. Luckily when it went totally it locked the motor up and the rod didn’t break. Fortunately diesel rods are the size of bridge beams.

If it were me I’d have the dealership change the oil again (and filter) to make sure no metal particles remain.

The common recommendation in the US is every 3000 miles. Of course that's promulgated by those quickie lube places. My car manual, for example, suggests every 7500 miles. Personally, I drive kind of hard, so I usually aim for about every 5000 miles.

I change my oil myself every 10k miles.
Trans oil every 30k.

Matthew- hope everything is ok. Fingers crossed.

3K was a good value back in the days of the carburetor, when oil would get filthy in that much time. Since the advent of efi and the O2 sensor, oil changes can go more like 10K.

I once changed mine at 25K (on both my Jag and the Volvo). The Jag's oil was pretty nasty, while the Volvo's was only slightly darker than usual...

3,000 miles was back in the bad old days before manufacturing tolerances became much tighter. Remember when people traded their cars in after 20,000 miles, and at 40,000 miles the car was pretty well used up? Newer engines allow far fewer combustion byproducts to get into and contaminate the oil and thus require less frequent changes. My Porsche's recommended change interval was 15,000 miles, but that was a dry sump engine with a 15 quart capacity. With the ShoWagon I compromised with a filter (only) change every 3,000 miles, and oil + filter change at 6,000. With over 200,000 miles on a high performance engine it is still running strong.

Tom Magliozzi (of NPR's Car Talk program) is about four or five years into an oil change experiment with his Dodge Colt Vista. He has not changed oil nor filter in that car for something like 80,000 miles, and only added oil one time after repairing some kind of oil leak. The engine is still running just fine. Kind of makes you wonder about that "...everybody knows you should change your oil every 3,000 miles" urban legend.

Matthew, if your oil pressure light never came on it is unlikely that your engine suffered any damage. It had oil pressure, and the trip was short enough that the diminished supply of oil would not have overheated. Plus, the oil that was in there was fresh and clean, offering good lubrication.

The suggestion that the rattle you heard might have been a [temporarily] collapsed lifter is suspect... That 2.2 liter engine is DOHC (VTEC?) and I don't think it has lifters at all.

I would definitely take Redrum's advice and have it checked by an independent mechanic, document with photos the cause of the oil leak, and have the oil analyzed for excessive metal content. Since the car has just a couple of miles on the fresh oil, there should be virtually no metal in the oil. If there is, you may have problems.

tanstaafl.

A friend of mine was given a '79 Chevy Impala as a company car and he turned it in with a bit over 100K on the clock and the factory oil still in it. This is on an engine that lives only 100K with the best of care.

Folks call the cam followers in an OHC car "lifters" and they can be hydraulic as well.

Hondas came with both solid or hydraulic lifters, depending on model.

It's a pretty easy process with most cars. One thing to be aware of ahead of time is how you will handle disposal of the used oil. Most shops should allow you to bring your own by, but some may charge a fee. I had a container large enough to hold 2 changes from my car while remaining easily transportable, and took it down to the nearest Pep Boys when it was time to empty it.

The other thing to consider is how to elevate your vehicle enough to get access to change the oil. Ramps you can drive the front two wheels up on may be easier then a jack stand. My garage in Austin had a handy lip I could put the ramps against to ensure they stayed in place.

Forget elevating your car, just use an Oil Extractor like the PELA. I do that to change the oil in my VW Golf TDI. It's a notoriously hard car to change the oil on because it's so low and because it has a huge oil pan plate that must be removed to gain access to the drain plug. The Oil Extractors making change oil a snap.

I miss my Gold TDI

If you didn't lose enough oil for the low oil pressure lamp to come on that you are fine IMO. Having said that, the oil pressure light is RED, so should it ever light up it is too late, shut off the engine, coast to the edge and pray. My '97 Corolla is after 220k miles consuming oil, so I need to remember to check it every now and then, other wise when I do an oil change at 10k I'll only drain about 2 quarts...the engine still pulls strong, though other parts of the car are causing some concern....

Drive more, worry less.

And that right there is my answer to the question posed earlier, why do these jiffy lube places exist? Because I hate having to dispose of the oil. I prefer to take my car somewhere that they do that bit for me. I don't get my hands dirty and don't have to care about what happens to the used oil.

Or you could pay $10 more and take it to a real mechanic that's far less likely to let all the oil drain out of your car.

I think that Prelude has an H22 in it, or something similar.
The clattering valves with low oil could be the Lost Motion Assembly. I think that needs some oil to work.

The shop called today, and said that while the oil change was done sloppily, the oil is leaking from the area near the timing belt. They wanted me to check when I last had the timing belt changed before they commenced with most of the procedure to change the timing belt. They didn't seem to think it had anything to do with the oil change, even when pushed about it.

It seems like amazing timing to me to happen after driving two miles on the oil change, but coincidences do happen.

Are you sure they don't mean that oil is *also* leaking from the crank seal?
(whups- I'm assuming the crank seal and not the cams)
It's hard to imagine *that*much*oil* getting past an old seal.

The timing belts are usually recommended to be changed at something like 90k miles.
It's normal to swap out the oil seals (at least on the crank), the water pump (while it's accessible at the same time), and possibly the belt tensioning assembly during a cam belt replacement. A garage might throw on the rest of the belts and hoses, too, to pad the job up a bit. Usually it's not a bad thing to go along with all these recommendations, although it's highly dependent on the garage.

Oops. I just used to dump my old oil in the woods. I figured if it came out of the ground...

For getting rid of the old oil, without pouring it in the woods, check out earth911.com for a list of local drop off points(probably US only).

Most new European bought cars in the last 5 years or so only require you to do oil changes every 20,000 to 30,000 kms (about every 12,000 to 18,000 miles), which is a lot better than the 5000 kms (3000 miles) it used to be. Some car dealerships still try to sell you on the "every 5000 kms rule" because they claim "it's better" (for who?). I wonder who still falls for that one, since even the manufacturers claim you're still covered by the warranty as long as you stick to the 'every 20.000 km rule - or 30.000, depending on the brand.

For me 20,000 kms is about the distance I drive per year, so I simply use the credo: every 25,000 kms or once per year.

When I was a kid the neighbor would pull his car over the ditch next to the road and change his oil there. No need to jack up the car and messing with disposing the oil.

I always wondered why our well water had those pretty rainbow colors

I put mine in a 55 gallon drum. Which last week the daughter says is about full. I’ll probably run a Craig’s list and see if I can get a couple bucks out of it to someone who has a waste oil furnace.

My new car has a sensor that determines oil life based on driving style, mileage since last change, and I'm sure some other factors. I think they still recommend every year though.

I had mine changed at 1500 miles (after the break-in to get rid of any shavings from the break-in) and will get it done at 5000 miles. After that, I won't worry about it as much and will probably wait until the oil life is at 25%.

Around here any recycle place or place that changes oil takes in used oil. I think they have to by law.

I fall for all the hype and change mine every 3-5k mile and use full synthetic oil (Mobil One). For what a new car costs or an engine rebuild I think its cheap insurance.

That's the quotation straight out of the marketing campaigns. See.. advertising really does work on some (most/all) people.

And an extra $300 a year is NOT cheap. For me at least.

Yep, I told you I bought right in.

About $75 a year for me (at most 10k a year). I concider that cheap. $750 for ten years. That's about dealer list price of a a radio upgrade.

Even $300 is not that much to me but I keep my cars nice and they last forever.

I can take it down to the Tacoma Transfer station and drop it off at the household waste disposal area. They don't have something similar in Seattle? I guess the issue might be how far you have to drive to do that.

Hummmm.…. A timing belt seal (I would think that would be the crank or cam seal) replacement is a bit more expensive than a new filter.

But if they really wanted to poke it to you they could say it was the rear crank seal and they had to pull the motor.

I would spring for a new belt while they're there.

You have transported me back to 1988. I left Sheridan, Wyoming very early on the morning of August 14th on the 3rd day of my drive from Boston to Seattle in my nearly-new Volkswagen GTI 16V. Just a bit over the Montana state line (near where Custer beamed up?) I stopped for gas, checked the oil, and added a bit of Castrol.

Somewhere east of Billings, doing like 100-110 MPH, I remarked to myself with annoyance that the view in the rear-view mirror looked like it had been shot by a tasteless wedding photographer. The vaseline-smeared facts slowly dawned on me. I eased the GTI off on an approaching ramp, pulled over and popped the hood, then saw the filler cap sitting comfily in a gap on the intake manifold.

I counted to 100 and started pulling the dip stick. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. I seem to recall that the GTI then let me pour in pretty much the entire rated capacity of oil. I drove to Seattle chanting "I am doomed. I am stupid! I am bad person!"

I forget the mileage, but I sold the still-revving-happily '87 GTI to a nice young waiter from one of our local restaurants in 2001.

It doesn't take much oil to lubricate an engine. What the several quarts do, is help with cooling.

Over here the local tip has a big tank you just pour it in. I think it gets filtered and processed and used again, probably the cheap 'n' cheerful engine oil I buy!

I, too, had a brand new GTI 16V that I dearly loved. It was an 88.

It started to get serious problems around 2000. Plastic and rubber things starting to degrade and fail. (What is the logic of making shift linkage out of *PLASTIC*?! Argh.) Eventually a head gasket leak, the subsequent repair, and the fact that the car still overheated after the repair, made me trade it in for a new Accord.

Any news?

I just wanted to mention that simply because the dip stick does not register a drop of oil it doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't "enough" (more like barely enough) oil to avoid damage.
My Honda still has 2 1/2 quarts in the sump when the stick is dry.