Dishwasher residue?

Here's a real homemaker question for you folks:

I have a really nice dishwasher from Kitchenaid that's no more than two years old. Up until about 1-3 months ago, it cleaned everything really well. I would just fill the detergent container with Cascade powder, make sure there was still Jet Dry in dispenser, and everything would come out just fine.

Then for some reason all my plastic stuff would come out cloudy, with this weird film on it. I've included a photo (though it shows a lesser case of this problem).

This is ONLY happening to plastic items (well, it's happened to a metal stirring spoon too). I've had no problems with my glassware or my ceramic/porcelain plates and bowls.

Any ideas what's going on? I've been searching around the web this morning, and everyone either talks about glassware specifically.

Is it salt ?

I have a similar problem with our dishwasher, it had been working fine for 5 years and then suddenly started leaving salt residue on everything (though it was only obvious on some items).

I think what has happened is the water softener in our dishwasher has failed in some way. I solved the problem by stopping filling the salt dispenser. It look a dozen washes for all the salt in the salt dispenser to go, but after that the residue went away.

It seems to wash about as well as it ever did.

Our water isn't that hard and the 4-in-1 tablets have salt in them anyway, so I guess we have been pointlessly filling our salt dispenser with salt for 5 years !

Salt dispenser? You have a salt dispenser? I've never heard of such a thing!

As for hard water, I'd thought of that as a possible issue, but is that something that would change like this? I'm open to it, as it seems like my mom's dishwasher has also been doing the same thing, and that's a different brand and about 10-12 miles away.

Other theory: this evidence of mind control chemicals put into the water supply by the CIA. After all, I'm only about 12 miles from Langley

Salt dispensers are found on machines with built-in automatic water softening. A number of brands make models with this feature.

Water chemistry could have changed in your area, but that's usually a seasonal thing, so it's likely you should have seen a similar issue last year at this time. You can get a report from your municipality as well as comments on whether anything has changed lately.

I feel like I should know the explanation for what you're seeing as I'm so confident I've come across it before. But right now I'm drawing a blank. You could try running some vinegar through the next few loads to see if it helps to at least clean out your dishwasher.

Have you noticed any difference based on what else you stack in the machine at the same time? Try not putting anything metallic at all into the next load.

Have you looked carefully at the package of detergent to see if its chemistry has changed since previous packages you may have bought? Phosphate versus phosphate free for instance?

Does you machine have any similar chalky or scale buildup? Around the heating element (if it's visible in your model), spray arms, etc.. Removed and/or cleaned the filter yet?

I don't think it's salt. This seems more like it's lime and the salt you put in your dishwasher doesn't dissolve it anymore or something.

Over here we have a very high concentration of lime into the tap water. That's why you have to put salt into your dishwasher. If you don't, you end of with dishes that look like you're showing on that photo.

I've bought a water softener to get it all out of the water before it gets used. Works VERY good, I'm real happy with it! I don't even need to put salt in the dishwasher anymore, it's completely superfluous.

edit: I've just read you don't have a salt dispenser in your dishwasher. Strange. I still believe it's the hardness of the water though. And this can change all of a sudden (if the water company changed their 'formula') and it can also be quite different in different areas.

Interesting. Didn't know about that. I don't believe ours has that, and if it does, I've never put it in there


That's one thing I kept seeing. I'll try that. One person said to put vinegar in an upright glass in the top rack.


We have very little variation between our loads at all. We put the same bowls in, the same eating/cooking utensils, the same everything, pretty much.


That's another thing someone mentioned in my searches. I'm not sure how I'd tell if there were a difference. I'll check if it specifically says "phosphate-free." Someone mentioned that certain areas have insisted on selling phosphate-free detergent.


I haven't checked, but I do know the detergent dispenser, which is plastic, has the film. Unfortunately I can't tell where the filter is...

You should probably start taking things apart. Grab the manual.

Clean out the dispenser so it has no residue. Clean out the impeller housing, spray arms, etc. Basically clean the whole machine out very well, run some vinegar through it and then try again with the detergent.

I use a green/eco (store-brand) powder that has no phosphate and it works very well. At least as well as the Kirkland (Costco) brand I used for the first year that did have phosphate. I've also tried Seventh Generation and that worked well too. These detergents have always seemed to wash better than the name-brand (Cascade, electrosol, etc.) ever did in my old dishwasher or those of my parents. My previous one was a POS GE, but my parents have always had some nice Bosch unit.

Washinton State, at least, and Oregon is following. It's caused a number of people to hop over into Utah just to buy dishwasher detergent, because the lack of phosphate in the detergent reduces the effectiveness, leaving your dishes less than spotless (though not so bad as in your picture, I think). But it's more environmentally friendly. Phosphate-free dishwasher detergent will eventually be mandatory nation-wide, just as phosphate-free laundry detergent is, now.

One thing I haven't seen asked is what you're cooking in those dishes? I found that I sometimes have to pre-wash dishes that had cornstarch in them.

Are you still using the Cascade powder?

I learned a $65 lesson about dishwashing detergent when my dishwasher in Alaska was performing poorly. Dishes literally came out looking worse than when they went in. I cleaned it, checked the filters, everything seemed fine as far as I could tell, so I called the repairman. He checked it over, could find nothing wrong until he looked under my sink. "Is this the detergent you're using?", he asked. It was some generic store-brand liquid, inexpensive. "Try Cascade powder" he said.

I did, the problem went away immediately and never returned.

Here in Mexico I have a nice-looking Bosch dishwasher. It is pretty much their bottom of the line model, perhaps only made and sold in Mexico. Ergonomically it is the worst dishwasher I have ever seen, seemingly deliberately designed to minimize the number of dishes that can actually be put into it. (I improved it somewhat by folding down one of the lower racks so I could lay bowls on it and then moved the silverware holder to a place it wasn't meant to go.) It does an incredible job of cleaning the dishes. They come out quite literally spotless, any clear glass is practically invisible. This is all the more surprising because there is no heated drying cycle, and I don't use any kind of wetting (anti-spotting) agent even though the dishwasher has a place for it. The reason for this rambling discourse is this: my neighbor across the street has a water treatment system for his house (the municipal water is not potable) and his dishwasher cleans so poorly that he washes his dishes by hand. He has been told that his treatment system is to blame.

Probably nothing I have said here will be of any help to you, but you never know...

tanstaafl.

You need a water softener. That's what my stuff looks like when I forget to put salt in the softener.

The report from the municipality will let you know the hardness or the water can be tested from the tap.

You can also test whether softening helps by trying some Calgon softening powder or similar in with your detergent on a load or two.

I'm not sure how I'd get something like that...

I ran a cycle with vinegar, so I'll see how things come out on the next load. I don't expect that to have worked though.


Like I said, I've never used anything BUT Cascade powder and Jet Dry.

My day-to-day has not changed at all. The dishes I put in have not changed at all, and my problem isn't with the plates and bowls at all. They still come out spotless, as far as I can tell. It's ONLY with plastic and sometimes with metal.


Ha! I looked at the manual, and it has only the most basic information on it. It pretty much just describes the different cycles and that's it.

Water report: Your utility will have this info. You should be able to check their website, hopefully a recent report is posted there. Otherwise you can email and ask I suppose.

Getting your water tested: Should be a number of places to do this, from water suppliers to assay labs. I'm sure you can find something on the web easily if you need this done.

So your manual doesn't include info on how to clean out the bits of the machine beyond the the detergent tray? Hmm.. Might need to find service manual info then - probably can find that online too. Removing the spray arms should be pretty straight forward though, as well as any covers over the impeller housing or filter areas. Should all just unscrew/remove by hand without any tools.

If you're going to run additional loads to see if the problem persists, you should really try to get the machine itself as clean as possible of any residues.

The softened water testing is pretty easy to do too, but still make sure the machine is as clean as possible, and maybe don't do this first - just to make sure you test one variable at a time. If you're gong to try this, use Calgon powder, not liquid. I remember that one from the many months I spent reading GardenWeb.

You can get those water hardness testers easily in shops that sell aquaria.

I'm running a load now, the first one since the vinegar cleaning. I also noticed that my Cascade is, indeed, phosphate-free. My guess is that this is because I purchased it at Costco, which of course feeds the lowest common denominator, so they probably ship the phosphate-free version of their product to their stores so they don't have to carry both varieties (because if there's one thing Costco hates, it's variety).

I'll swing by the grocery store later today and pick up a small box of Cascade (if it's not phosphate-free) and try that in the next load.

I can't remember when I started getting Cascade from Costco instead of the store, but I thought it was before this problem started happening...

Does anyone have a link to something that tells why phosphates might be harmful?

Basic: It's a nutrient and will promote/accelerate growth/bloom of undesirable things like algae, which can block light from the water as well as stop/starve the exchange of oxygen with the surface. Wreaks havoc with the ecosystem in that body of water.

http://bcn.boulder.co.us/basin/data/NEW/info/TP.html

All said, I get excellent results from a number of phosphate-free powders.

Well, it looks like I'm one of those phosphate-free states. Still, from this article, it looks like this might have happened last June/July, and this problem is more recent than that...

Any results Matt?

It's a little too early to tell, and we haven't run the dishwasher very often since the vinegar (which is unlike us ). It's promising, though. There wasn't as much cloudiness as before.

I think another problem is that I might use a little too much detergent, and I know for certain that my wife uses way too much (overflows the compartment then forces its door shut).

We've cut back to only filling it half way, and that seems to be helping.

Darn -- you beat me to it. I've been meaning for days to mention this. I read somewhere (no idea when/where) that a dishwasher will work better with as little as 1/8 the amount of detergent that the dispensers will hold. I have been running mine 1/4 full with outstanding results.

tanstaafl.

I first heard it from a guy fixing my mother's dishwasher. She had a problem with mildew growth, and among other things he did, he said that people put much too much detergent in washing machines and dishwashers. I use half the suggested amount in both now.

It's the same story with toothpaste and it's all part of the manufacturer's advertising and promotion. The more you use, the sooner you'll need to buy more.

Yup. Toothpaste commercials all show the actor putting an inch-long spread of paste on the longest brush head available. You don't need nearly that much, of course.

I heard an interesting story years ago about a guy making a proposal to some toothpaste company about increasing their profits 2x over night. His solution was to make the hole in the tube 2x the area.

Was the hole in a toothpaste tube/container ever much smaller than it is today?

I put roughly a pea-sized blob of toothpaste on the brush. It works very well. The other alternative is brushing only once per week - makes the tubes last a super long time, though doesn't keep the teeth so clean.

I can believe that, about the hole size. Tubes used to be, tin in think it was, the end was closed and had to be pierced using the opposite end of the cap. Some ointments are still sold that way.

Edit: The larger hole would make it easier to extrude the paste.

I've had the exact same problem. For a year, we tried different brands of detergents, different amounts of detergents, different brands of rinse agents, adding vinegar in varying amounts, etc. and never got it licked.

Then, I read a NY Times article about the general dissatisfaction with the new phosphate-free detergents. It never occurred to me that switching detergents wasn't going to work because all detergents were going to be equally bad. Even though my state doesn't ban phosphates in dishwasher detergent, it seemed like all the national brands were either selling new formulas in all states (like Cascade), or the places I was going were stocking from national warehouses (like Costco). We go to Mexico a few times a year, so the next time we went we just bought a big bag of the cheapest stuff that listed fosfatos in the ingredients. Problem solved. ¡Es un milagro!

With good enough water, I don't think the phosphate-free detergents are a problem, but our water is really hard, with tons of rust and who knows what else. So, my guess is the phosphate issue is the root cause of your problem, but since the timing doesn't quite line up with the switch over, it seems like there must have been some change in water quality in your case.

I continue to be impressed by it. Attached are three pictures of what it did with my broiler pan with grease thoroughly baked on. You could almost say vulcanized.

First is the pre-cleaning stage, then the pan before washing, finally the pan afterwards. Note that the pre-cleaning, although quite vigorous, accomplished little.

tanstaafl.

You just don't have the right kind of Dog, Doug. I have a very similar-looking Poodle-cross who would probably give that tray a few licks and get a few bits off, just like your second photo. But then I also have a Basset-cross that would leave the tray at least as shiny as your last photo.

If you are still having trouble with this, here is another possible answer.

If the heating element in the bottom of the dishwasher has failed, the water may not be getting hot enough to completely dissolve the Cascade powder. You need at least 140 degree (F) water for that. If you just pop the dishes in and turn on the dishwasher, depending on how far away your hot water heater is, you may be filling the dishwasher with mostly cold water.

A test (and workaround) for this is to load the dishwasher, then before turning it on, run the hot water in the sink until it is as hot as it will get, then turn on the dishwasher.

I think the heater in my Bosch has failed, but using the above technique I still get shiny clean dishes. If I don't "pre-heat" the water, I get a white film, particularly on [real silver] silverware.

tanstaafl.

Haha, I'd forgotten about this thread

Yeah, I never run the dishwasher without running the hot water first. I've always done that regardless of whether the heater is working.

I'm sorry I completely forgot to follow up on this thread, and now I'm slightly unclear on what fixed it and how good it eventually got, because we no longer have that dishwasher (or the condo in which it is located ).

From what I can remember, it was a combination of things. The vinegar helped, but didn't do all that much. I want to say we might have eventually called the manufacturer and they sent out a technician who found that the drain was a big clogged up. We tend to rinse our plates before putting them in the dishwasher, so I'm not sure how much more we could do (at what point is it easier to just hand wash the plates?).

There was one consumer product I've used that really helps clean the dishwasher. It's called Dishwasher Magic, and you just put it upside down in your silverware basket (with nothing else in the machine), and run your dishwasher at the most aggressive, hottest setting. Afterwards your dishwasher looks great, and I recall our dishes coming out cleaner.

I see this topic has been going for years lol. Just to agree with Matt - I had these residue problems years ago, and like people here, searched the net without a solution (if you'll pardon the pun). Eventually I told my ex about it and she asked if I had used Dishwasher Cleaner. I said No, is there such a thing?

Anyhoo, I went to Tesco (I'm in UK), and found small plastic bottles of dishwasher cleaner right beside the detergent. As Matt says, you put them upside down in the cutlery thingy, and run a cycle. For me it took 2 cycles, but then my cutlery and glasses were finally sparkling clean again - result.