Can someone explain how the Ethernet will work?

I am considering the Mk2 unit, and was wondering if someone could explain how the Ethernet connection would work with a Win98 machine. Will the Emplode software address some IP when it goes to download? Will I just have to manually FTP to it to put the MP3s on it?

Thanks!
Jamie

Emplode will synchronise over ethernet in exactly the same way as USB or Serial.

The precise mechanism for configuring the car player IP address has not been finalised, but I'd guess it's something emplode will be able to do over Serial or USB (or you could do it manually if you're a techie type).

Rob


Rob

I would reccommend the possibility of using DHCP to automatically configure the IP address. In addition to the other methods, of course.

Fly me to the moon...

You should definitely be able to set the IP on the empeg itself, with a menu command or somesuch; it shouldn't really be a techie-only option. Also, I think it should come with a pre-set "local" IP address that's stated in the docs or something. Both of these because some people (like me) would want to use the Ethernet simply because I don't want to deal with the serial cabling (I have a Mac without a serial port) or the USB driver hassles.

trev

I would suggest a preset 192.168.x.y address, since that's one of the 'public' B-classes and most people with home networks set their IP's in that range. Then use DHCP or other methods to set it if it doesn't work from there.

Make it so it will probably work without having to fiddle with it.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

Scenario:
A home network with a cable line running into the house to a hub the proceeds to send the signal out via in-house ethernet wiring.

I need to pay for each additional IP address for use with the cable connection (3 total - I have roommates). There are additional ethernat outlets (like behind the TV in the living room, where the home theater I would most likely hook the player up to is located.

Do I need to pay for an additional IP address? If I connected the empeg to the outlet with a cable, would it show up on the network (like in network neighborhood)?

I'm not quite sure how networks work quite yet, because I'm going to have to set all this up this summer when the house is finished. If I have emplode set up on my computer, and the player connected via the outlet in another room, will this work?

Thanks in advance.

Here's my take on your current setup...

You won't need an additional cable IP unless you want to have the empeg connect to the internet. You WILL however, need the empeg to have an IP address in the same subnet (range) as your other computer. Either by temporarily changing the IP on your computer, or better yet, by adding an additional IP to allow your computer to talk to the cable and to the empeg at the same time(of course, getting an additional cable IP would do this also, but it isn't necessary).

You won't see the empeg in network neighborhood without additional linux software (At least that was true the last time I got on a linux kick-- someone else will have to verify that), but if all the transfer is done via FTP, then you don't need network neighborhood anyway...

Hope this helps.

BillB

Reg #11 - Passed it up the first time, NOT passing it up the second...

Most of the products for wireless ethernet these days come with a proprietary card (like SOHOware). What we need is the ability to transmit and recieve using some kind of little antenna that is in the car somewhere. Basically, we'd need an ethernet cable with a powered (or non-powered I guess) antenna on it to put in the car. This would hook into the Mk.2 unit. Then, you'd need something like this on the PC side inside the house to transmit.

So where can we round up something like this. Ideas?

I remember seeing a wireless ethernet solution that had a transceiver unit that you simply plug an existing ethernet cable into - no need for proprietary cards, etc., but, the bandwidth was so small that they had to use thin client to get any real work done. When I say small, I mean under 1 Mbps. -which is still faster than serial, but if I'm not mistaken, I believe you can get better data rates with IR.

If you have to do it in car - 10baseT is good to 100 meters. You can always drag a cable to the car and roll it back up when you're finished...

How about this? Would this work? Uses RJ-45 into existing NICs and supposedly runs at 2Mbps. Just a thought.

http://www.ezylink.com/products/elan11.html

Interesting, but the 2MB model (you point at the 4MB version) is US$ 599/699 per shot! Doubles costs of an Empeg
see http://www.networkbuyersguide.com/search/105338.htm

Henno
# 00120

I was trying to find something price-wise on the 'Net, but ya beat me to it. Hmmmm....I agree that's pretty steep. I wonder if that's MSRP? They have a VAR program, and I wonder if Empeg offered to be a VAR for the product they could bundle it cheaper.

I know I'm doing a "pie-in-the-sky" dreaming bit here, but I think it'd be pretty darn slick.

I wonder if that's MSRP
Don't know for sure, but I bet it's something like 'Main Street Retail Price'

. . . . dreaming bit here, but I think it'd be pretty darn slick.
. . . .

Henno
# 00120

The cool thing would be to mount an RJ-45 plug next to the fuel filler hole, with a little rubber snap-on weatherproofing cover to it.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Oooohhh...that would be TOO cool. Now all I need is a garage. :/

And after the Empeg really takes off, we can stop at a service station - "Fill up the car, please, and while you're at it, load the current Top 40 into the dataport."

The Apple Airport may be a way to do this as well. It's data rate is 11mbps, and it has a 150ft range. It will talk to other 802.11HR standard devices. One minor problem, it requires a Mac to configue. Some people are working on figuring out the SNMP interface it uses, and I have an SNMP program that allows me to configure a few things without a Mac.

For me, I would need to figure a way to make the Airport not a base station, and instead just a link to my existing Airport network.

The cost used to be $200, but recently I noticed it jumped to $300. The PCMCIA 3Com card I bought for $157 for my laptop, and I'm sure PCI cards are around that price.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

I have an Apple Airport in my Miata hooked to my mk2, and it works. The airport (or at least mine, YMMV) uses a PSU inside the box (LM2596 from memory) which is fine from 7v->around 40v, so this just comes from the accessory feed.

The main problem is that the airport is a server, not a client - the software in the box won't talk to another airport. I just use a pcmcia card in my machine plus the airport in the car & with a development version of emplode which runs over a socket connection it all works just like you'd expect it to.

Lucent *do* do a client ethernet<>wireless adaptor which looks like it's the same hardware as the airport, just with different software. It's also 3x the cost...

You don't need the mac, the out-of-the-box config will work. Remember it's a bridge, not a router, and so as default just sits there working with MAC addresses. My mk2 is static-ip'ed and the bridge is just transparent. The airport will dhcp server on the wireless side and so dhcp's my laptop's wireless card.

Hugo

**WARNING** **WARNING** **WARNING**

DO NOT attempt to do install ethernet or anything else like this near your fuel filler cap. You'll blow yourself sky-high.

The voltages and currents used in ethernet are not Intrinsically Safe and may cause sufficient energisation of the air (spark not necessarily required) to ignite the petrol (gasoline) vapours and KA-BOOM!!!

I used to work in R&D for electronic metering equipment of fuel pumps and bowsers. Trust me on this.

I know this thread is sort of a pipe dream, but someone will try it one day... and end up with a nomination for the Darwin Awards.

While we're on the subject, don't ever use your cellphones on a service station forecourt. Keep 'em in the car.

Cheers
Jon

Okay, so it's expensive, but I did get this e-mail back from the Sales department at OTC (who sells the EzyLink products):


Thank you for your interest in OTC Telecom's AirEZY line of wireless
networking equipment. I am not exactly sure how to answer your questions,
but I will try.

Our product starts at $199.00 per side.

We would be happy to support the Empeg idea anyway we can.

Do you know how many Empeg systems have been sold?
Do you know how big Empeg is?
How can you help us contact Empeg?

Regards,

Steve

What I configured was the ip to a 192.168 address so I can see it on my LAN. I'd like to disable the DHCP, since I have a linux server on my lan assigning DHCP already. The config program I have can take the files the Airport config utility saves and resend them to the Airport. Sometime soon I plan on making a few different ones off a borrowed Mac, as my Airport may be comming with me to California, and ICS via it's modem would be useful out there for me and a friend.

I've seen the Lucent one, but for that price, I can deal with pulling the empeg out :-)

Intel may be the next place to look down the road. I recently attended vendor training on the HomePNA products they currently have, and wireless is comming. They have indicated down the road of a possible bridge for ethernet networks to wireless, and since their products are aimed at consumers like the Airport, the price should be reasonable.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

Wow. Hadn't thought of that. Good point.

Where I live, they've passed laws requiring that all fuel stations have vapor recovery nozzles (rubber boots around the filler tube), so I haven't smelled gasoline vapors when filling my car for many years. That's why I didn't think of it.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Europeans don't get this sort of pandering. I was in Belgium at the Bruges 2000 mx5 meet at the weekend and whilst we were at a petrol station, we spotted one of the employees smoking a cigarette whilst on the phone... sat next to a pump.

Safe, huh?

I'm not sure what this is about ethernet not being very safe - 10-base-T is just 5v differential signalling. Yes, you need a large amount of isolation to meet ethernet specs, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything which gives out much higher voltages than that.

Hugo

And another question:

What about Bluetooth?

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

So you're saying that currently, you just get into your car, start the ignition, boot your laptop and telnet over to your empeg, empode files over, and all of that? No wires? No mess?

Cool!

Calvin

The AirEZY folks contacted me today to say that the folks at Empeg are looking into this whole AirEZY wireless product mentioned in the posts below.

Can anyone from Empeg expound on this any? Is this really something that you all are pursuing?

I got an email from them today but I haven't responded yet. I don't know if they emailed anyone else at empeg who may have replied.

We've been working with Airport and related technologies so far, and already have wireless synchronisation working.

Rob

Rob said:

We've been working with Airport and related technologies so far, and already have wireless synchronisation working.

*drool*

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

Oh my... colour me intrigued.

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Will the ethernet be avail via the car-dock ?? Please do so! It wouldn't be possible to setup any wireless unless the ethernet is avail on the dock. Sorry if this has been asked before...

Thanks, J.

got my fingers crossed

does this mean this might make it into Empeg Mark2? a wirless module?

it doesnt get much better than this

Empeg Kicks Ass
S/N 00203
http://www.iretro.com

Probably too late for a hardware change at this point, but I could see it being offered as an add-on or something to that effect.

Rob already mentioned that they were messing around with Airport as a solution, however, besides one of the e-mails below, I can't find any non-Mac related Airport info.

No extra empeg hardware is needed - we put ethernet on the player to open up a huge scope of networking possibilities. Wireless synchronisation is already running on a standard Mark 2 using an Airport bridge in the car and a WaveLan card in a PC. The range is pretty good, the data rate is as fast as USB, and it rocks!

Wireless ethernet bridges are already available from multiple manufacturers, and their popularity is increasing such that they'll be a cheap consumer commodity before long.

The best bit is that, in most cases, no extra software will be needed on the empeg. Our standard ethernet sync routines work with an out-of-the-box Airport bridge.

Regards

Rob

Rob wrote:

we put ethernet on the player to open up a huge scope of networking possibilities.

One factor here is that the ethernet connector isn't dockable. But it can be. By shaving the locking clip on the cable connector off, and positioning it precisely and holding it firm in the empeg docking chassis, AFAICS it can be dockable with no trouble.

Which links to the idea of separate components (e.g. extra hard-drives) being on some sort of network. A fair few people have ethernet networks in their home, but how many people have one in their car?!

Could solve a lot of problems for third-party manufacturers.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

No, we can't run ethernet over the dock for a number of reasons, including connector capacity, EMC and 10BaseT specifications.

It's not much hassle to plug in an RJ45 connector to the player by hand, though, and there's a corresponding cut out in the cage to allow this. If you're using wireless networking you probably won't remove the player from the car too often anyway, otherwise, what's the point?

Rob

I've been talking to them, yes. Things are moving along...

:)

Hugo

I don't get into the car, I leave the empeg on (standby) then in the office I fire up my laptop and open emplode... which finds the empeg even though it's at the other end of an 802.11 link. Sync is indistinguishable from USB, but it's a bit quicker.

Hugo

Bluetooth isn't there yet in terms of availability of actual modules. It's also a lot slower than 802.11 and has worse range (generally) - the advantage comes when you use it to talk to 3G cellphones with high bandwidth net feeds...

When they're available, we'll do stuff with them, you can be sure of that...

Hugo

so what's the story for us jumping in on this thread?

Will you be able to have the airport wireless bridge on the empeg while it is in the car?


Empeg Kicks Ass
S/N 00203
http://www.iretro.com

It's not a case of ethernet not being very safe, it's a case of it not being Intrinsically Safe. This is a technical term, and describes the failsafe protections built into the hardware layer.

To achieve Intrinsic Safety, an engineer needs to consider things like maximum voltage and current (power) and things like current and voltage clamping in short and open circuit situations, EMF fields, things like the physical separation between cabling, restraining methods, all sorts of other things.

It has been a while since I worked in this area so I don't remember what the specifics are, but it's still quite simple: Ethernet is not intrinsically safe. Operating it near petroleum vapours is operating it in an explosive environment. (IIRC, "Class One Zone One"- to get any more dangerous, you're designing for things that are immersed in the stuff).

Installing ethernet near your filler cap may not be enough to immediately cause an explosion. However, it may be enough to be a contributing factor. And you don't know, because you don't know what the specs are. Just think what might happen if you've got ethernet installed, it's a hot day, you've got half a tank of gas, you are connecting the cable and then your mobile phone on your hip rings. Think about it now, because you won't be doing much more thinking if bits of you are sailing through the air in different directions...

Perhaps I'm just funny this way. But I'm not willing to take the chance.

Cheers
Jon

PS If anyone *does* decide to do this, can they please remove their empeg first and bequeath it to me in their will? You'll never know you're missing it ;-)

Just out of curiosity here, have there been any documented cases of any kind where a piece of minimal-heat-producing consumer electronic equipment caused gasoline fumes to ignite/explode?

I agree that it's theoretically possible, but sometimes there's a big difference between theory and practice.

Alex

Hugo,
Perhaps when things calm down and the Mark2 is nearly out you could post a HOWTO type document detailing what hardware was needed, what modifications you recommend (for ease of insertion of ethernet modplug into Mark2 port), etc.

Could be a good FAQ topic for schofiel given the interest this thread has sparked in such a short timeframe...

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

I suspect we'll be offering a package of 802.11 wireless hardware to go with your empeg, but we'll do a howto aswell :)

Hugo

Glad to hear that you're in touch. I hope that they can get the price to something reasonable enough to make it practical.

(Gee, maybe the sales rep. would be nice enough to send me a pair as a 'referral fee' if you all work something out with them. :-) )

I don't know the number, but it's more than one. Remember though, we're not talking heat here. There are other ways of starting a chemical reaction, including vibration and electrical and magnetic fields (eg nitroglycerine). There is a reason that cellphones are not allowed on service station forecourts- they can dissipate up to five watts through the aerial (though it's usually much less) and that gets radiated into the surrounding air, which contains a near-perfect air/fuel vapour mix.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic here, and I think I've made the point I set out to...

Cheers
Jon

have there been any documented cases

I don't know of any disasters, but the warning is well taken.
In Finland, for example, WAP tests from oil companies at service stations have been suspended, because of the risks of using cell phones on forecourts. As said elsewhere, it's not heat that may ignite the vapour mixture, but merely energizing the mixture.

Henno
# 00120