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#148215 - 14/03/2003 08:53 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: tonyc]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
But there have been instances where a crime was committed that obviously wasn't hate-related, but hate crime legislation was applied to them solely because of the races of the parties involved. I'm not saying that any violent act is okay, but it does bother me that if I killed a black man that I could potentially be more severely punished than if a black man killed a black man.

If the courts wanted to take the brutality of the acts into question (dragging a person behind a truck versus shooting him, for example), that would be okay by me. They may already, for all I know (is that what aggravated means?).
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Bitt Faulk

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#148216 - 14/03/2003 08:56 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: wfaulk]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
But there have been instances where a crime was committed that obviously wasn't hate-related, but hate crime legislation was applied to them solely because of the races of the parties involved. I'm not saying that any violent act is okay, but it does bother me that if I killed a black man that I could potentially be more severely punished than if a black man killed a black man.
Like I said, I agree that it's a double standard and subject to what one's definition of "hate" is... A very "slippery slope" as stated above by others. But I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Should hate-crime laws be rescinded? Probably. But there are probably a hundred other inequities in the justice system I'd go after first.
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my empeg stuff

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#148217 - 14/03/2003 09:19 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
If the courts wanted to take the brutality of the acts into question (dragging a person behind a truck versus shooting him, for example), that would be okay by me.

I totally agree here, because brutality is still an action that the aggressor takes. If a white man brutally beats and abuses a black man, and then kills him, he should be punished harshly for that action, regardless of whether he was a racist or not. The same should apply if the agressor was black.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#148218 - 14/03/2003 09:53 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: jimhogan]
mdavey
enthusiast

Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
jimhogan,

I think you were asking lectric, but I'll answer anyway! I havn't read Too Close To Call but I did read Stupid White Men by Michael Moore. A great read.
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Michael
Ex-owner of stolen empeg #030102741

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#148219 - 14/03/2003 19:57 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: wfaulk]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5377
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Well, the facts exist that the Florida vote was very, very, close, and that there were a lot of allegations of voting misconduct

Did you hear about the email that George Bush sent to Al Gore on September 12th?

"Hey, Al -- We've finished the Florida recount, and guess what? You won! When can you take over?"



tanstaafl.

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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#148220 - 14/03/2003 21:03 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: mdavey]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Stupid White Men by Michael Moore.

I guess I should be surprised, but I haven't read this or seen _Bowling for Columbine_. I dunno, I remember _Roger and Me_ fondly, and there were parts of TV Nation that I thought were funny, but Moore has given me this sense of a Polemic on Wheels. Am I being unfair? I dunno.....geez it's not like I object to polemics...when they are my own!!

Anyhow, one *positive* aspect of incipient unemployment is that I will be conducting much more business with the Seattle Public Library (ah, libraries, the *essence* of socialism!!) so that I can sample more Moore without any financial exposure.
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#148221 - 14/03/2003 22:03 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: jimhogan]
fusto
addict

Registered: 27/12/2001
Posts: 504
Loc: Lummi Island, WA
incipient *and* polemic?
Me doth think you try to hard...
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...all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.

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#148222 - 14/03/2003 22:33 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: fusto]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
incipient *and* polemic?
Me doth think you try to hard...


Hah! And here I thought I was going to get nailed for more Moore!

Incipient, I have to admit that I have always liked that word. I should watch my six, though. Any moment now Bitt will fire a USM (usage-seeking-missile) up my butt telling me that I mean "imminent"....and he'd be right, but there *are* aspects of the situation that make "incipient" appropriate.

Yeah, I love that word.....brought on by the phrase (which I am now unable to trace -- was it Firesign??) "incipient nectritude". Necritude, not even a real word, either!
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#148223 - 14/03/2003 23:18 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: tanstaafl.]
trs24
old hand

Registered: 20/03/2002
Posts: 729
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Suppose we defined morality as conforming to a code of ethics that caused the least amount of harm to others?
John Stuart Mill would definitely agree with you there.

Oddly enough - when I searched for Mill's Harm Principle, this very related topic also came up in the top 10 results. Freaky.
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#148224 - 15/03/2003 01:16 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: trs24]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12043
Loc: Sterling, VA
No! I knew it would happen! We just had to read Mill for my Ethics class! Ah!

Damn utilitarians...
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Matt

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#148225 - 15/03/2003 09:25 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: Roger]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
There is no compelling evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda.

Oh, but there is!

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#148226 - 15/03/2003 10:35 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: tonyc]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
After Desert Storm, I seem to remember there was a minority who wanted to continue until Saddam was out of power, but most people wanted to bring our boys back home, provided Iraq wasn't causing any more trouble. I was kinda young during this time, so if I'm incorrect in my recollection, feel free to correct me.
I don't think we would have gotten UN support to keep going once the primary objective (liberating Kuwait) was complete.


I don't think UN would have complained too loudly, if at all. Methods Coalition forces employed were rather far from impeccable (remember Basra road with its 'collareral damage', fabricated news of Iraqi soldiers plundering matenity ward of Kuwait hospital leaving babies on the floor etc), but there was virtually no outcry and that was basically considered (perhaps correctly) as grim but acceptable price to be paid for liberation of Kuwait (whatever that might mean, given the regime there).

However, US needed Saddam Hussein at the time: someone had to be a balance to Iran, keep Shiite minority in check, help Turkey with its 'Kurd problem'... (Speaking of the later, 'no fly' zones don't apply to Mi-24 helicopter gunships; Kurds felt that.)

So, no, I don't think US would have been stopped if it pressed on a decade ago. It just wasn't in what Bush Sr. considered national interest.
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#148227 - 15/03/2003 11:05 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: bonzi]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
First off, welcome back to the BBS... Good to see you around again.
I don't think UN would have complained too loudly, if at all. Methods Coalition forces employed were rather far from impeccable (remember Basra road with its 'collareral damage', fabricated news of Iraqi soldiers plundering matenity ward of Kuwait hospital leaving babies on the floor etc), but there was virtually no outcry and that was basically considered (perhaps correctly) as grim but acceptable price to be paid for liberation of Kuwait (whatever that might mean, given the regime there).
I'm not sure how all the fabrications and collateral damage during Desert Storm relate to the question of whether the U.S. and its allies would have been allowed to keep going once Kuwait was liberated. Once the job was done, there was no chance of being given International support to keep going. There was already spotty participation from some of the coalition countries, and they were only there because of the U.N. resolutions, resolutions which were passed solely to get Iraq out of Kuwait. I can't imagine any scenario in which further U.N. resolutions would have been passed to keep the coalition together for an assault on Saddam Hussein's regime.

Incidentally, though Kuwait is not exactly a shining example of democracy, there are competitive elections, a Parliament, etc. It's really the only Arab state in the Gulf with anything resembling a legitimate political system.
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my empeg stuff

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#148228 - 15/03/2003 13:32 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: tonyc]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
First off, welcome back to the BBS... Good to see you around again.

Thanks. I am glad to be in good company again .

I'm not sure how all the fabrications and collateral damage during Desert Storm relate to the question of whether the U.S. and its allies would have been allowed to keep going once Kuwait was liberated. Once the job was done, there was no chance of being given International support to keep going. There was already spotty participation from some of the coalition countries, and they were only there because of the U.N. resolutions, resolutions which were passed solely to get Iraq out of Kuwait. I can't imagine any scenario in which further U.N. resolutions would have been passed to keep the coalition together for an assault on Saddam Hussein's regime.

I meant to say that the world was not exaclty nitpicking at details of Desetr Storm. I agree there was no chance for a new SC resolution authorizing removal of Saddam Hussein's regime (nor is there basis in UN Charter for one), but I don't think there would be much furor if US just continued the push (especially if done quickly and with pretext - or, even better, genuine reason - of protecting Kurds on the North).

Incidentally, though Kuwait is not exactly a shining example of democracy, there are competitive elections, a Parliament, etc. It's really the only Arab state in the Gulf with anything resembling a legitimate political system.

Yes, one has to put things in perspactive.... US certainly has friends with less of resemblance of democratic societies (e.g. Saudi Arabia from which, incidentally, most of 9/11 hijackers came). Thanks for the correction.
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#148229 - 15/03/2003 13:48 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: jheathco]
Banacek
journeyman

Registered: 28/03/2002
Posts: 94
In reply to:

Bush probably isn't that bright, but he's got a ton of bright people working behind him. I, for one, consider him to be a moral man, unlike many of the presidents before him.




I don't think people that used to (who knows nowadays) use cocaine as highly moral people...

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#148230 - 15/03/2003 22:44 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: Banacek]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
used to (who knows nowadays) use cocaine
Remember that time where he was found lying on the floor in his office and he supposedly choked on a chip and hit his head or some such bullshit? I'm not saying that was drug-related, but it could have been.
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Bitt Faulk

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#148231 - 15/03/2003 23:04 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31166
Loc: Seattle, WA
Remember that time where he was found lying on the floor in his office and he supposedly choked on a chip and hit his head or some such bullshit?
If that's the one I'm thinking of, I think it was supposed to have been a pretzel. Will Durst's classic comment: "Even Gerald Ford could chew, for Christ's sake..."
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Tony Fabris

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#148232 - 15/03/2003 23:47 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: Banacek]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
I don't think people that used to (who knows nowadays) use cocaine as highly moral people...


Yeah, I'm often pondering whether George's Christian Rebirth was really due to Daddy telling him that he couldn't ever play President otherwise. After all, his Christian Spirit appears to be so forgiving.
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#148233 - 16/03/2003 00:15 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: genixia]
jheathco
enthusiast

Registered: 21/12/2001
Posts: 326
Loc: Mission Viejo, California
Oh yeah, anyone who has tried drugs must be a horrible person. That would be a very hypocritical comment if you've smoked a cigarette or tried marijuana, but I won't get into that. I'm sure you're perfect anyway
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John Heathco - 30gig MKIIa w/ tuner module

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#148234 - 16/03/2003 02:54 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: jheathco]
Banacek
journeyman

Registered: 28/03/2002
Posts: 94
In reply to:

Oh yeah, anyone who has tried drugs must be a horrible person. That would be a very hypocritical comment if you've smoked a cigarette or tried marijuana, but I won't get into that. I'm sure you're perfect anyway




First off, cigarettes are legal, so that doesn't make any sense. And speaking of hypocritical, I'm not the one who did drugs and THEN passed tougher drug laws when I got into office. I'm also not trying to be America's moral leader. And about the morality or other presidents. I'd much rather have a preident who was honest and admit to smoking pot then one who always dodges the subject or changes his story when confronted about his dealings with cocaine. I'm sorry, but I find nothing moral about this man at all. I just hope that America wises up and we vote him out of office...

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#148235 - 16/03/2003 04:18 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: Banacek]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4147
Loc: Cambridge, England
Oh yeah, anyone who has tried drugs must be a horrible person. That would be a very hypocritical comment if you've smoked a cigarette or tried marijuana, but I won't get into that. I'm sure you're perfect anyway
First off, cigarettes are legal, so that doesn't make any sense.
You seem to be confusing morality with legality. Clearly many illegal things are immoral, and vice versa, but defining one in terms of the other doesn't seem like a good idea; it doesn't allow one to speak of "an unjust law", for instance.

More concretely, drug use (whether nicotine, marijuana, or cocaine) is a so-called victimless crime -- it harms no-one except the person who has chosen to do it. (That's ignoring the passive smoking issue, of course, which would serve to make cigarette smoking less moral than cocaine use.) It seems like it would be difficult to get a moral crowbar in the gap and lever apart nicotine as moral and marijuana and cocaine as immoral. For a start, in order to make any sense, morality should surely be non-geographic. Does nicotine use somehow become less moral when performed in Bhutan? Does marijuana use somehow become more moral when performed in Amsterdam?

As for Mr Bush, I'm sure he's "a moral man" in the sense that he's doing what he sincerely believes to be right. I'm also sure he's "an immoral man" in the sense that he's doing what the vast majority of humankind sincerely believes to be wrong.

Would we describe Simon de Montfort as a moral man? He got made a saint by the Catholic church, which is usually an indication of being pretty frickin' moral -- but the action that won him that recognition was the slaughter of 20,000 men, women and children at Beziers because they weren't Catholics. Not that that sort of anticompetitive religious conduct was particularly out of place in the 1300s -- but I think it's fairly widely regarded nowadays as Not a Good Thing.

Peter

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#148236 - 16/03/2003 06:05 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: peter]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
As for Mr Bush, I'm sure he's "a moral man" in the sense that he's doing what he sincerely believes to be right. I'm also sure he's "an immoral man" in the sense that he's doing what the vast majority of humankind sincerely believes to be wrong.

And we're back to the question of personal morals!

Actually, I agree with just about everything in your post.

I will point out that Christianity (which is Bush's faith) teaches to follow the law unless it contradicts God's law. This makes doing drugs in the U.S. a breach of the moral code Bush has chosen to follow.

Does this make him immoral? From the standpoint of his chosen faith, yes. Since he has demonstrated that he is immoral, any morality he posses now would have to come externally, from the work of Jesus Christ.

So the question of what he's done before (again, as far as his chosen standard of morality goes) is irrelivant, as he is clearly an immoral man. The question now (as it ever has been) is what standard of morality should be applied and whether or not his current actions breach that standard. Making a "moral" decision, however, does not make him moral.

Now of course we all have different ideas of morality that we apply to Bush, but I wanted clear the air a little about what Bush's stated faith teaches.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#148237 - 16/03/2003 08:27 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: peter]
Banacek
journeyman

Registered: 28/03/2002
Posts: 94
You seem to be confusing morality with legality. Clearly many illegal things are immoral, and vice versa, but defining one in terms of the other doesn't seem like a good idea; it doesn't allow one to speak of "an unjust law", for instance.


You are correct. But there's also the point that Ferretboy brings up, which was...

will point out that Christianity (which is Bush's faith) teaches to follow the law unless it contradicts God's law. This makes doing drugs in the U.S. a breach of the moral code Bush has chosen to follow.


..so smoking a cigarette or having a beer is a perfectly fine and moral thing to do if your a Christian, but doing cocaine would be immoral. Basically everything that Ferretboy said


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#148238 - 16/03/2003 13:04 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: Banacek]
jheathco
enthusiast

Registered: 21/12/2001
Posts: 326
Loc: Mission Viejo, California
Funny you bring up Christianity and leave out the fact that you can be forgiven for your sins. Everyone on earth has sinned before, so either you consider everyone "immoral", or you develop some different standards as to how you judge people.
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John Heathco - 30gig MKIIa w/ tuner module

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#148239 - 16/03/2003 13:33 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: jheathco]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Technically, I brought up Christianity, and I did mention the forgiveness of sins (or at least implied it):

any morality he posses now would have to come externally, from the work of Jesus Christ.

However, now that I read my post I fear I may have not quite gotten to my point, which you state quite nicely in your post. From a Christian perspective, Bush is immoral because of his sin, as are all the rest of us. However, this is not what you were driving at when you first stated you believed Bush to be "moral". I think your intent (correct me if I'm wrong) was that you believe he displays virtues that outweighed his non-virtues, and is a man worthy of trust and being looked up to.

After that, things sort of devolved into talking about his use of drugs to prove that he's not moral. If we're going to adopt a "you must live a perfect life in order to be pure" attitude toward morals, then it's prudent to point out that this is exactly the claim that Christianity makes. Except that it also adds the idea that we've been provided with a foreign righteousness in the person of Jesus Christ if we trust Him for it.

This is the doctrine that Bush claims (as do I), and therefore to say that Bush is moral even though he has sinned is valid, if we believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ. However, not all (if many) here would agree with this doctrine. That leaves us with Peter's perspective that a user of drugs is not intrinsically immoral, except as far as breaking the law is considered immoral.

There is still the matter of this war and whether Bush's actions in it are moral. This is the topic being heavily debated, not only because we have different ideas of morality, but also because the are differing ideas as to what Bush's goals really are.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#148240 - 16/03/2003 13:46 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: JeffS]
jheathco
enthusiast

Registered: 21/12/2001
Posts: 326
Loc: Mission Viejo, California
Yeah, I agree with what you just said, and yeah, I was implying that he was someone I think we can "look up to" and "trust".
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John Heathco - 30gig MKIIa w/ tuner module

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#148241 - 17/03/2003 03:43 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: pca]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2992
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
(Round of rousing, continuous applause)
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#148242 - 17/03/2003 11:44 Re: What is Blair up to? [Re: fusto]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Another perspective at Blair's motives and position in this mess.
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