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#239897 - 03/11/2004 02:17 Can we stop the bashing now?
CommOri
journeyman

Registered: 30/12/2001
Posts: 83
Look, the election will soon be over. A ton of the posts lately have been politically minded and rightfully so this close to an important election. But the Right/Left-bashing is really sad and pathetic. If you disagree with someone that's fine, but posting pages of diatribe about your how your personal beliefs are somehow *above* anothers is just tiresome.

No one here knows my political beliefs (well, maybe Tony after knowing me for 20 years, but he's prolly guessing right now, too), and I respect peoples right to disagree vehemently with any of my personally held beliefs, but when I see senseless ramblings and what looks like real *hatred* (not just violent disagreement) expressed here, it really turns me off to what I'm told is a relatively smart community.

I had to avoid this board years ago because of all the anti-american rhetoric that was being spouted, and now I'm going to avoid it again because of the lack of respect being shown to other members. It's sad and, I think, uncalled for.

Flame away...I won't be here to hear it.

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#239898 - 03/11/2004 02:45 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
So you come here to post specifically to push buttons and you're the one that wants to stop the bashing? Good start.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239899 - 03/11/2004 03:07 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3825
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
um... adios amigo!
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#239900 - 03/11/2004 03:54 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
JaBZ
addict

Registered: 08/08/2001
Posts: 452
Loc: NZ
it's offtopic, you dont have to read it!...

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#239901 - 03/11/2004 04:53 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
As a citizen of another country, I'm a little pissed off at the US political system, specifically that the rest of the world has no say in who becomes the US president. I mean, the US is so open to controlling the political atmosphere in other countries, at the very least, and moving specific people in and out of power at the other end... It's only fair other countries get a say on who the world's supreme commander is, right?

I've been watching ABC for the past few hours. The electoral voting is a bizarre practice. But even more bizarre is Bush leading the popular vote. Wow. Campaigning to ban Gay marriage has sure paid off. Or perhaps it was promoting Cousin and Sibling marriage? It's a close call all around, and to me that just paints a bleaker picture of the US and (obviously) close to half its residents.

In the end I suppose it's all about picking one puppet over another. It's just that Kerry's ventriloquist is so much better.

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#239902 - 03/11/2004 05:09 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: hybrid8]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
As a citizen of another country, I'm a little pissed off at the US political system


Well, you might be able to relax now.... We had a choice: Give up the whole "Leader of the Free World" gig?...or just make the Free World a whole lot smaller. I am thinking we went for "B", but I am not thinking too clearly right now. Anyhow, don't blame the system. I don't think it was they system's fault. Hey, let's talk in the AM. There was Dewey, right?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#239903 - 03/11/2004 05:39 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5402
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
I'm going to avoid it again because of the lack of respect being shown to other members

What, you think that disagreeing with someone's opinion is an indication of lack of respect?

I have been enormously impressed with the rationality, civility, intelligence, and lack of personal attack expressed in these posts that you characterize as "bashing".

JeffS has probably had his beliefs attacked more than just about anybody on this bbs, including attacks by me. Yet, I doubt if you could find another person here who is held in higher respect than he is. Because I disagree with him (and do not hesitate to express that disagreement) does not mean that I disrespect him! Quite the contrary.

I think that perhaps you are confusing forthright, entertaining debate with animosity. Nobody here is expecting to change anybody's opinions on these matters of religion and politics. But we're sure going to have a hell of a lot of fun trying, and that's really the point of the whole thing.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#239904 - 03/11/2004 06:34 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: hybrid8]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3825
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
I'm a little pissed off at the US political system

Quit bashing us!
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#239905 - 03/11/2004 08:32 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
when I see senseless ramblings and what looks like real *hatred*

Why don't you show us why and how those 'rambling' are senseless? I didn't detect any hatred here; I was temped to see it at your two most recent posts, but then they look more like a childish tantrum.

Quote:
I had to avoid this board years ago because of all the anti-american rhetoric that was being spouted

Being 'anti-neocon empire-building', 'anti-freedom-destroying', or simply 'anti-Bush' is not being anti-american. Actually, I think exactly that is being very much pro-American, but you will, I suppose, dispute that.

Quote:
Flame away...I won't be here to hear it.

Oh, I forgot, you won't.

After all, how could one be anti-american after knowing people from this board?
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#239906 - 03/11/2004 09:47 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
Jerz
addict

Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
Quote:
But the Right/Left-bashing is really sad and pathetic.

....did I miss something?

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#239907 - 03/11/2004 10:47 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: hybrid8]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
As a citizen of another country, I'm a little pissed off at the US political system, specifically that the rest of the world has no say in who becomes the US president. I mean, the US is so open to controlling the political atmosphere in other countries, at the very least, and moving specific people in and out of power at the other end... It's only fair other countries get a say on who the world's supreme commander is, right?

I've been watching ABC for the past few hours. The electoral voting is a bizarre practice. But even more bizarre is Bush leading the popular vote. Wow. Campaigning to ban Gay marriage has sure paid off. Or perhaps it was promoting Cousin and Sibling marriage? It's a close call all around, and to me that just paints a bleaker picture of the US and (obviously) close to half its residents.

In the end I suppose it's all about picking one puppet over another. It's just that Kerry's ventriloquist is so much better.

Bruno


OK, come to the US and campaign for your candidate, or send millions of dollars.

Apparently our processes are working since we are the disputed world champs.

I’m shocked it wasn’t a landslide in Kerry’s favor. Guess the squeaky wheel didn’t get the grease, I’m glad.

I’m also glad the term marriage is being tightly defined and not…

Marrage – A union between a person or persons or anything(s) person(s) can screw.

Let’s call the above definition a Civil Union and all move on.

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#239908 - 03/11/2004 11:05 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Redrum]
Ladmo
addict

Registered: 04/09/2004
Posts: 516
Bottom line is I am an American...conservative, pro-life, 50+ year old white male, who served in combat, received a P.H. (other wise known as a 'I zigged when I should have zagged' medal). I also love music. Hey! I bet there is at least one thing most of us have in common!
Bottom line is if you don't want to read the 'political bashing' (my God! This IS an election year!!!), then don't punch up the message...don't watch the tv....don't turn on your radio...don't read the paper...don't be informed....
But I am glad the rest of the world does not have a 'vote' in our politics....the thought of France (Sorry, Frenchmen) helping to 'make our country safe' scares the crap out of me...

Ok...fire away...I WILL be here to read it!

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#239909 - 03/11/2004 11:23 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Ladmo]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Ummm I think you wanted to reply to the guy who started this tread.

And by the way, I agree with you 100%

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#239910 - 03/11/2004 11:24 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Redrum]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
I’m also glad the term marriage is being tightly defined and not…

Marrage – A union between a person or persons or anything(s) person(s) can screw.

Let’s call the above definition a Civil Union and all move on.


OK, reasonable (except that I think that the state should be concerned only with civil union or equivalent aspects of marriage, that is, support, inheritance, taxes etc; religious aspects of marriage (if there are those in a particular case) should be exclusively between those married and their church/religious community/whatever - their God(s), after all; the state has no business regulating those), but:

Quote:

(source)

The proposed amendments in Mississippi, Montana and Oregon refer only to marriage, specifying that it should be limited to unions of one man and one woman. The measures in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma and Utah would ban civil unions as well.

The Ohio measure [is] considered the broadest of the 11 because it barred any legal status that "intends to approximate marriage,"


_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#239911 - 03/11/2004 12:07 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: bonzi]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Yes, there is much more at stake than a definition. I just think gays hit a cord with many by wanting to change “Marriage.” I think gays would have gotten everything they wanted (taxes, benefits etc…) with “Civil Union.”

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#239912 - 03/11/2004 12:19 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Separate but equal is inherently unequal.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239913 - 03/11/2004 13:11 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: tanstaafl.]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
I think that perhaps you are confusing forthright, entertaining debate with animosity. Nobody here is expecting to change anybody's opinions on these matters of religion and politics. But we're sure going to have a hell of a lot of fun trying, and that's really the point of the whole thing.


Agreed. I hardly ever feel that people on this BBS are "bashed", though ideas are certainly thrashed about quite a bit. Sometimes I get tired of reading the "Bush is evil" stuff from time to time, so I don't. Yes, there are times I skip over long posts on political topics because I'm just tired, but that's a choice I have. Most of the time I at least take pleasure in reading perspectives I don't hear often, and certainly not from sources that are credible. There is a lot here that simply doesn't make sense to me and I still struggle to figure out why people believe some of the things they do (and I know many say the same about me), but this is a unique place in which we can put flesh-and-blood people behind some of the ideas we've only ever heard through one filtered medium or another. It is very difficult for me to demonize the "other side" knowing that there are intelligent people who I respect holding tightly to those ideas.

Where this is all so invaluable to me is that I think we all want the same things, but we disagree at a fundamental level how to get there. I believe that faith in Jesus Christ is the key to true hope and peace, that the government should leave much of its social programs to the people, and that due to the fallen world we live in, sometimes violence is required to prevent more violence. But I also know people here who believe that religion is not necessary for hope and peace (and possibly even an agent against such pursuits), that the government should increase its role in meeting the needs of its people, and that violence is never necessary if you truly try to live at peace with your fellow man. It’s neat to be able to listen to other people talk about how they think we ought to get something accomplished, because it seems none of us has it exactly right.

In short, I don’t agree with or embrace much of the things said here, but I am glad to know the people behind the words- perhaps by understanding each other better we can make better sense of how to get those things we all want. Ok, now let’s join hands and sing . . .
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#239914 - 03/11/2004 13:34 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: bonzi]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
I think that the state should be concerned only with civil union or equivalent aspects of marriage, that is, support, inheritance, taxes etc; religious aspects of marriage (if there are those in a particular case) should be exclusively between those married and their church/religious community/whatever - their God(s), after all; the state has no business regulating those
I agree (and have said so numerous times), though it's not going to happen. The concept of marriage is too entrenched in our legal system to jettison it so easily. I think they should ALL be civil unions, but that's a pipe dream at best.

Because of this, despite my anti gay marriage stance I'm not please by all of the civil union bans. I wish these states would have stuck to only deciding the matter of marriage. Civil unions are not a perfect solution, but it's better than ignoring gay couples altogether.

It'll be interesting to see where this all ends up being in a few years. I've pretty much accepted that legal gay marriage is going to happen, so the fact that states are now voting to ban civil unions is quite a shock. It seems to me we're going to have states with polarizing stances on gay marriage, and it'll be interesting to see what the fallout of this is going to be.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#239915 - 03/11/2004 14:21 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Separate but equal is inherently unequal.


You can call a Rose a Cat but it’s still a Rose.

Yes, Civil Union <> Marriage.

That’s why I always hated the “Political Correct” movement. They loved to call a Cat a Rose, and by god you’re a bigot or worse if you don’t.

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#239916 - 03/11/2004 14:37 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
What are you talking about?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#239917 - 03/11/2004 14:40 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
Flame away...I won't be here to hear it.

I'm sorry, you were here before? Not sure anyone noticed.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#239918 - 03/11/2004 14:55 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Redrum]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Yes, Civil Union <> Marriage.

How would you define the difference (apart from religious or ritual elements, which I dont' think, as I said, should be in the domain of government regulation, unless the state in question is a theocracy) ?
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#239919 - 03/11/2004 14:57 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
hate

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#239920 - 03/11/2004 14:57 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: JeffS]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3932
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
that the government should leave much of its social programs to the people


This would be more impressive if the people actually did the work.

Now, the flipside is I won't tell you the government is the answer either. But look around a city and see how many homeless people you see. There's not a chance they all "want" to be homeless. We have shelters, but when the weather is extreme, they fill, and people are turned away. It's not the same as a home, either.

Now, you could get me to believe that many of them have mental problems. I've seen precious little from the non-government sectors to help there. But even the government wasn't really able to do anything; With advances in rights for the mentally ill, asylums were closed. Well, the flipside is we failed to deal with the people who have no one to fall back on. So at one extreme we "abused" people by locking them away, and at the other we leave (some of) them to rot.

I won't disagree with you about Christ's teachings; I will admit that I am not the best Christian, but I would be less disillusioned with the people I share the holy Trinity with if the walk matched the talk more than it generally does.

I don't know the details of your life, and I'm not looking to; This is a very sweeping generalization, and not a personal slam. I can't look at people and say "you're not following the teachings of Christ"; It's much easier to look at people whose needs are unmet and say "we can do better. we must do better."

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#239921 - 03/11/2004 15:23 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: Daria]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I think this is a really tough issue without easy answers, and I don't think the level of government involvement in social programs is a question of Christ's teachings; I'm sorry if I've implied that it is. Christ said we are to feed and clothe the hungry, but he left up to us working out the “how”. In fact, a look at the early church leads me to believe it was very socialistic, with members brining their possessions together to meet one another's needs. Even my church today is a lot like this. We feed and clothe the hungry outside the church as well as keep a fund for those within the congregation who might need financial aid at some point in the future.

The problem is that the above examples are all voluntary and rely on the personal decision of the giver. When the government taxes its people to fund social programs, you’re saying "you don’t care about people enough to help them out, so I'm going to make you." To me, the root of the problem is that people don't care enough to help their fellow man, and that's what really needs to be addressed more than anything else. We need to strive to heighten personal responsibility for our fellow man and move away from simply taking the money needed to do it.

It's a tricky line though. We are truly a weak nation if we allow people to die in our streets uneducated and uncared for. It's not enough to step back and say, "I'm sorry, but you're not the government's responsibility."

I just wish there wasn't so much reliance on the government to handle social needs. With politics comes corruption, and it's hard to trust where our taxes are going, especially with our national debt so large. And once again, the lack of personal responsibility people feel toward caring for their fellow man is saddening. Having to be forced to give to feed the hungry is almost as bad as not feeding them, but not quite.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#239922 - 03/11/2004 15:31 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: JeffS]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3932
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
The problem is that the above examples are all voluntary and rely on the personal decision of the giver. When the government taxes its people to fund social programs, you’re saying "you don’t care about people enough to help them out, so I'm going to make you." To me, the root of the problem is that people don't care enough to help their fellow man, and that's what really needs to be addressed more than anything else. We need to strive to heighten personal responsibility for our fellow man and move away from simply taking the money needed to do it.


Screwing the people who are losing while we figure out how to motivate people to help isn't real high on the charitable scale, but appears to be about where we are.

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#239923 - 03/11/2004 15:35 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: tanstaafl.]
kayakjazz
member

Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
Quote:
I have been enormously impressed with the rationality, civility, intelligence, and lack of personal attack expressed in these posts that you characterize as "bashing".


...what he said... As well, as a new poster, I've spent the last 6 weeks entertaining myself reading past posts, so probably have a fresher, broader view of the whole than most. While the heat of the debates are often palpable, the general lack of personal animus is really remarkable, and a tribute to the general level of civility on the board. Perhaps I might recommend the above as a refresher course for CommOri....heaven knows, just now we all need to jump-start our civility...


Edited by wfaulk (03/11/2004 23:23)

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#239924 - 03/11/2004 15:38 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: CommOri]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5322
Loc: Cambridge UK
Quote:
I had to avoid this board years ago because of all the anti-american rhetoric that was being spouted, and now I'm going to avoid it again


Bloody Americans, always over reacting!

Rob

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#239925 - 03/11/2004 15:42 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: kayakjazz]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31256
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
While the heat of the debates are often palpable, the general lack of personal animus is really remarkable, and a tribute to the general level of civility on the board.


I agree with this completely, of course. But there is a subtle distinction between civil debate and flamethrowing, and some people just don't see how we ride that fuzzy line here. The debates on this board are an acquired taste, a very specific one, and I don't blame someone for not wanting to be a part of it.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#239926 - 03/11/2004 15:59 Re: Can we stop the bashing now? [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
That's fair. But I, at least, don't really care to hear that he's not reading. Maybe if he'd ever made a reasoned political post before in the Off Topic section I might.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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