#264890 - 09/09/2005 01:55
How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-ish)
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Another rant, even less educated than the first:
How is America the richest country in the world? Seems like we have everything against us:
We are in phenomenal debt.
We import more than we export.
We give countless jobs to outsourcing.
We give more jobs to illegal immigrants and "day laborers".
We give money to many other nations.
(I recently heard on PBS that give $10million per month (week?) to Columbia for "the war on drugs")
The concentration of wealth in the hands of the few is mind-numbing.
So, how do we actually have money? Do we actually produce goods which anyone in the world buys? (see last paragraph before answering that) If our workforce keeps shrinking to outsourcing, how are our fellow citizens even employed enough to feed themselves?
But, the world buys the inexpensively created and/or more efficiently created products of Asia, India, etc. And these same countries are receive the outsourced unbearable manual labor that the rest of the world is too good for. Isn't all the money flowing to these countries? Shouldn't they be the wealthiest? (except that the American or European CEOs are pocketing the six figures while the unskilled laborers are getting six cents)
Are we "the richest nation" because we are taxed upon taxed upon taxed by our government? So is our wealth not held by the citizens, but being used by the government however they choose and without any input or consent from the people who worked for it?
It seems our only income goes to our "musicians" and movie stars. Perhaps America is nothing more than an overstuffed piggy bank of consumerism which sings and struts the stage for the world's entertainment. Oh, and McDonalds. We try to make the rest of the world as unhealthy as we are.
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#264891 - 09/09/2005 06:24
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I think outsourcing and hiring illegals is a sign of wealth, not poverty... People in other countries are willing to work for much less money than americans because they have less, so american companies hire them.
America is one of the most capitalist countries in the world. Businesses there have more flexibility and power. China has moved more towards a capitalist system in recent years and they now have the fastest growing economy in the world.
America has also been at the forefront in technology for the last 100 years or so.
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#264892 - 09/09/2005 06:27
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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We have a large country, our literacy rate is good, our productivity is amazing, our GDP is huge. We can afford the debt, we can afford sending our money out to the world in return for goods. We have been the major power in the world for close to a century and are coasting along quite well right now.
And I think we are living on borrowed time.
It won't last forever; it never does. The wheel will turn, and we will eventually be just another country again. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool, it is just a question of when.
America is primarily a service economy now, relying on 100 years of a good educational system and a serious headstart to outhink and outinvent the rest of the world, and then sell them our services. We have given up making goods; we used to be the best, but the rest of the world caught up with us in that. We are now seeing them catch up with us on the rest too. While our education system is floundering, too caught up in our social problems and religious squabbling, the rest of the world is blowing right by. Japan has long been the world leader in electronics. China is producing engineers at the three times the rate we are. India already has more IT workers than the we do. Brazil, Argentina, Korea, Malaysia; we are being attacked on all fronts, and we are vastly outnumbered.
We are on top now, and likely to stay that way for a while longer; we still have a huge head-start. But we really should take a look at who is going to be breathing down our neck shortly.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#264893 - 09/09/2005 07:38
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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member
Registered: 06/04/2000
Posts: 158
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One of my favourite economic aphorisms is "China was the world's richest country in 18 out of the previous 20 centuries. They have no intention of letting it be 18 out of 21." This book is good on the outsourcing discussion. Regards Mark
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#264894 - 09/09/2005 07:44
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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You missed a few points that also bear on what you say, such as: - consumption of world resources: approx. 33% - consumption of energy: approx. 28% - production of CO2 emissions: est. between 22 and 31%. These numbers, combined with those you quote, imply a society that is out of balance both with itself, and the rest of the world with which it co-habits. I would recommend an excellent, non-US-bashing book which has a very objective, realistic evaluation of the role of the US in the world today. It's called "Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire" by Niall Fegusson, a history professor at Harvard U. It's well written, lucid, and comes to some pretty startling conclusions. Whatever happens, this world is in for an "interesting" ride in the next few years. 2010, here we come.... 
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#264895 - 09/09/2005 10:52
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: schofiel]
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addict
Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
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I've been to many of the larger cities in the world and nowhere else have I seen more urban decay than in the US...I was actually shocked the first time I travelled to parts of Detroit, it looked a lot like Croatia did during the war in '92...
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01001010 01101111 01101000 01101110
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#264896 - 09/09/2005 12:30
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
so american companies hire them.
...and in so doing, make sure that America's prosperity vanishes faster than you can say "Bangalore" or "Nuevo Laredo."
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#264897 - 09/09/2005 13:07
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14474
Loc: Canada
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USA people have been installing themselves as workers all around the world for many decades, including the present one (hey, just check with Mach if you need a sample). Most often in the highest paying jobs, too. So it's hardly suprising that other countries also export workers, often to the USA.
Moving large numbers of jobs overseas is somewhat different -- often this is done to put the design/production closer to the largest customers (eg. China). Another big factor is that the USA *is* very wealthy, and nearly all of it's citizens are too, on a world scale. They don't live in mud huts, and rarely have 10 people to an apartment or single room. As such, they're not willing to do basic labour for really cheap pay. Other parts of the world are not so well off, and are more than happy for the work.
Cheers
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#264898 - 09/09/2005 13:28
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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None of what you've said is justification for allowing companies to hire illegal workers. Illegal means illegal. If we really need people from Mexico to come and do the lowest paying jobs (which I'm not convinced of) then we need to reform our immigration policies to allow more people in legitimately. That way, we can make sure they're better taken care of, receive fair wages, get immunized from infectious diseases before they come in, have a better chance to be culturally assimilated with Americans, etc.
The situation as it is now, where criminals are rewarded for illegally crossing our borders while legitimate immigrants who wait their turn get punished, is not acceptable for a country that claims to adhere to the rule of law. And yes, I blame the corporations who hire illegals (and the corrupt Presidential administration that encourages them to do so) more than I do the Pablos and Marias who just want to make a better life for themselves.
As for outsourcing, I don't agree that it's always a case of "someone else will do it cheaper" and even if it was, that's a race to the bottom. Giving away your country's wealth to the lowest bidder to increase profits at the very top of the org chart when that money could pay American workers is not good long-term economic strategy to me.
This post brought to you by the Run-on Sentence Foundation of America.
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#264899 - 09/09/2005 14:27
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
...Giving away your country's wealth to the lowest bidder to increase profits at the very top of the org chart when that money could pay American workers is not good long-term economic strategy to me.
Who said the bean counters have a good strategy?
Who said they have a long-term view?
It seems to me (and perhaps this is your point-in-irony) that the short term view has ruled this nation for the last 50 years... excepting, of course, McDonald's, Coke, and Big Oil. They've planned for long term corporate survival (at the expense of long term population survival).
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10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#264900 - 09/09/2005 22:26
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Gah, so many good replies. Thanks for the book references. You guys are the best. Quote:
America has also been at the forefront in technology for the last 100 years or so.
Right, but that gap is closing fast and America is in trouble. Japan has the best super computer (though special purpose; cheaters), South Korea has the most efficient steel mill, etc, etc. The glory days of Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, IBM, and Bell Labs are long over. Our wealth seems either old money or ill-begotten.
What's worse, we willingly pay for the crap that's churned out by penny-slaves in foreign countries. Corporations even intentionally give us low quality products so they wear out and need to be repurchased faster; planned obsolescence.
Quote:
USA people have been installing themselves as workers all around the world
Good point, I'd forgotten about that. I really need to learn more about the economics, production, and consumerism of China and Japan.
Quote:
reform our immigration policies to allow more people in legitimately
I once heard that someone (president?) wanted to suddenly turn all illegal aliens into citizens "to give them the rights and privileges of Americans" and all those uplifting lies. It was said this would destroy those people because since they'd have to pay tax, they'd have to charge more for work, so they'd loose their job and be replaced by an entirely new population of illegal workers. The move would double the low-wage immigrant strain on the American infrastructure.
So, attention international community: We're quickly becoming NOT the richest country in the world. Please don't be too mean to us in the coming decades.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#264901 - 09/09/2005 23:01
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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So, agreed, we're quickly becoming poor, yet in denial. Moving on:
I've had some big ideas about restoring the glory days of American quality and pride. I recently learned the history of the Adirondacks in upper New York state. Simply: a vast wilderness, reaped as a resource by industrial and capitalistic Americans, than saved from destruction by the realization of its rare natural beauty (and some super shady big-money dealings). It seems that humanity has progressed enough to realize that something is precious *before* it's all gone.
It is time for a revival of American quality. If Americans (and others?) opened their eyes to realize they are consuming crap, maybe they would demand quality. If Americans are so rich, why don't they pay for the luxury of true quality? If American workers can't be bothered to do unskilled slave labor, why don't they engage in quality craftsmanship?
I'm dreaming up schemes to first restore quality to the American household. Why buy a crappy chair that will break (generating waste, necessitating repurchase, etc) when you could buy one in the Ike-era style that's bomb-proof? Why make a house from rot-able, combustible wood when it could be created with the unshakable steel of recycled cars? Why buy cheap plastic household products which wear out and break frustratingly causing inconvenience when they need to be replaced, when you could buy well engineered items that last and last? And why not make all of these quality items in America?
Why don't we buy quality? Because we don't have foresight enough to see past the high price and realize the savings. But if buyers of quality goods could be instilled with pride, exclusivity, and a sense of luxury, I think they'd go for it. (and we'd have to somehow sidestep the disposability of "fashion") And maybe with some shady government tax breaks because the products are created in America thus supporting our economy, they could be offered at less-than-luxury costs.
If only I had the persuasive management skills to (re)start this movement. Maybe it is possible, thanks to the Internet..........
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#264902 - 10/09/2005 16:10
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
It was said this would destroy those people ["illegal" workers] because since they'd have to pay tax...
Strangelly enough, many undocumented immigrants do pay taxes. (I can't quote the source, as I learned this, together with statistics which I no longer remember, from several TV documentaries)
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#264903 - 10/09/2005 16:21
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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A place to start ( USA chapter)  . Sadly, applies only to perhaps 20% of world population, those without food problems (and with some time to spare). And how many Americans have first to get off food stamps before contemplating advantages of "slow" vs. fast food? As for taxes (i.e. more openly introducing import bariers): OK, but we will first have to dismantle WTO. I am not entirely sure what to think about more and more popular idea of returning to closed economies. I have impression that most supporters didn't think the consequences out.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#264904 - 10/09/2005 19:43
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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There are many taxes in the US, and illegal immigrants are bound to pay a lot of them, but he was referring to income tax, which they have no way to pay, as it requires a federal ID number (the Social Security Number) and if they had one, they would not be illegal. Many of them have an SSN, but most of the time this is one used by a large number of illegals, so pointing yourself out as being one of the ones using it would be dumb. That said, most people have income taxes deducted from their paychecks, and in some cases, it would probably be hard to prevent that from happening, but, as long as they chose the correct jobs, they could avoid it. Interestingly, income tax filings at the end of the year also include some welfare money for the poor. They can actually be refunded more money than they submitted originally, and I imagine the illegals would often fit in that category.
They still have to pay a variety of sales taxes, which are probably much less than income taxes, but not insignificant.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264906 - 12/09/2005 10:36
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: FireFox31]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
So, agreed, we're quickly becoming poor, yet in denial.
I don't think the USA is becoming poorer (in fact the american economy is steadily growing). It's just that some less-developed countries are naturally becoming wealthier at a faster rate, which is a good thing.
Quote:
I'm dreaming up schemes to first restore quality to the American household. Why buy a crappy chair that will break (generating waste, necessitating repurchase, etc) when you could buy one in the Ike-era style that's bomb-proof? Why make a house from rot-able, combustible wood when it could be created with the unshakable steel of recycled cars? Why buy cheap plastic household products which wear out and break frustratingly causing inconvenience when they need to be replaced, when you could buy well engineered items that last and last? And why not make all of these quality items in America?
Why don't we buy quality? Because we don't have foresight enough to see past the high price and realize the savings. But if buyers of quality goods could be instilled with pride, exclusivity, and a sense of luxury, I think they'd go for it. (and we'd have to somehow sidestep the disposability of "fashion") And maybe with some shady government tax breaks because the products are created in America thus supporting our economy, they could be offered at less-than-luxury costs.
Have you ever been to IKEA? The swedish beat you to it!
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#264907 - 12/09/2005 10:49
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: bonzi]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
I was actually shocked the first time I travelled to parts of Detroit, it looked a lot like Croatia did during the war in '92...
I saw again Moore's Fahrenheit 911 yesterday. A soldier from Moore's hometown (Flinth, Michigan, IIRC) was comparing his neighborhood to what he saw in Iraq. 
Here are some fotos of the "ruins of detroit". There are some pretty amazing pictures.
It's also interesting that Detroit is the most liberal city in America.
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#264908 - 12/09/2005 12:48
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Here are some fotos of the "ruins of detroit".
You realize you've linked to a white supremacist website, right?
You need to prove you own an empeg or your account is getting banned.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264909 - 12/09/2005 13:01
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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And, for the record, the major cause of the state of Detroit is Michigan state laws that tell Detroit that it cannot annex surrounding areas. Immediately surrounding Detroit are some of the most affluent towns in the US, like Grosse Point, Bloomfield Hills, Rochester, Dearborn; the list goes on and on.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264910 - 12/09/2005 22:56
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Here are some fotos of the "ruins of detroit".
You realize you've linked to a white supremacist website, right?
You need to prove you own an empeg or your account is getting banned.
I didn't write the commentary, nor did I read the rest of the site. It's just interesting pictures of Detroit.
I googled for some fotos of what others in this page were discussing - the bad areas of Detroit... and these were the best I could find. I wasn't even aware of the other content on the site. I was also curious why Detroit looks so trashy, so I read up on the politics of the city. It is the most liberal city in America according to one organization. Perhaps that's the cause of the dilapidation, or perhaps that's the effect of it... I don't know, but I have a feeling that the two are related somehow.
But how can I prove that I own an empeg? And why do you want to ban me?
Edited by Billy (12/09/2005 23:12)
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#264911 - 13/09/2005 00:36
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14474
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
But how can I prove that I own an empeg? And why do you want to ban me?
Show us a photo of yours, with the serial number on display on the front panel, with your latest issue of KKK Daily next to it.
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#264913 - 13/09/2005 05:11
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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I leaned something new today. If you click on the user name of someone in PhpBB, down at the bottom of the following screen there is a little button that says "ignore this user" that's adds them to the killfile. Quite handy. Now if I could get people to never quote him, my life would be even better.
Are we sure it isn't d3zzy? He's got racist and moronic and troll down, all he needs to do is go on about his gun collection and I think we will have got a positive match.
Edited by ninti (13/09/2005 05:14)
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#264914 - 13/09/2005 10:55
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Geez...cut him a little slack...he said that he didn't know what kind of site it was. He's certainly done nothing intentionally worth banning other than disagree with the majority. If you ban him, you'll be guilty of the intolerant bigotry that you claim to hate so much.
Note that I certainly don't agree with everything he has said, but if it bothers me, I'll either make a logical argument to the contrary or keep my mouth shut.
Quote:
He's got racist and moronic and troll
And what's with all the name-calling lately? It's a good thing we can't throw virtual rocks.
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#264915 - 13/09/2005 11:56
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14474
Loc: Canada
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I think you need to go and read his back posts from the past two weeks.
Nothing too terrible about any induhvidual posting, but collectively they paint a very telling picture. I don't want to associate with his type.
-ml
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#264916 - 13/09/2005 11:57
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14474
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Geez...cut him a little slack...he said that he didn't know what kind of site it was.
Really? I didn't see him say that anywhere. Can you quote, please.
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#264917 - 13/09/2005 12:20
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
I didn't write the commentary, nor did I read the rest of the site. It's just interesting pictures of Detroit.
I googled for some fotos of what others in this page were discussing - the bad areas of Detroit... and these were the best I could find. I wasn't even aware of the other content on the site.
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~ John
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#264918 - 13/09/2005 13:02
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
ignore this user
Oh yeah. I forgot that was there. It got added after d33zY "left",
Quote:
Are we sure it isn't d3zzy?
Unless d33zY has moved to the Netherlands, probably not.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264919 - 13/09/2005 13:04
Re: How IS America the richest country in the world?? (another rant-is
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
He's certainly done nothing intentionally worth banning other than disagree with the majority.
He showed up specifically to push buttons. Again, I have no expectation that he owns an empeg at all.
In some ways, you're right. Banning him is bad, but is it better or worse than showing up with no objective other than to start a fight?
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Bitt Faulk
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