#289731 - 14/11/2006 01:15
New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Hi everyone,
I know there are quite a few TiVo enthusiasts here and I was hoping you could offer me some advice. It's been over 10 years since I've had any kind of TV service. My GF and I just ordered cable (Charter Communications) and it is going to be installed on Wednesday. We keep pretty weird hours, so the idea of being able to watch good stuff at any time via TiVo sounds really appealing.
The service we ordered is "extended basic with the family package". Apparently, the channels in the family package require a cable box to receive, while the "extended basic" channels do not. We will be getting two cable boxes, one for each TV.
I know that TiVo changed their subscription fees recently. I noticed that one can purchase a used series 2 TiVo on ebay for about $250-300 which includes a transferrable lifetime subscription.
Here's my questions:
How do the Sony and Toshiba models fit into the equation? Are they the same as a series 2? The Sony and Toshiba units sell for considerably less. What's the deal with that?
Is buying a used series 2 with the lifetime subscription the way to go? Is going TiVo even the way to go? I've read that some of you are quite dissatisfied with recent software upgrades.
Are there more than one model of series 2 or is the only difference the hard disk size (especially, do they all have 2 tuners)? What are the hidden "gotchas" of buying a used unit?
Given this cable company setup with the "family package", does one need 2 cable boxes as inputs to the TiVo? How does all this get hooked together so it can do its thing while we watch other stuff?
I can stick any old IDE hard disk in this thing, right? So I don't need to worry about getting a lower capacity unit?
Do the series 2 models all have ethernet capability, or capability to add it? What about 802.11?
Any other tips would be appreciated. We have no intention of upgrading to HD infrastructure in the near future.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
Jim
Edited by TigerJimmy (14/11/2006 01:22)
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#289732 - 14/11/2006 01:36
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
How do the Sony and Toshiba models fit into the equation? Are they the same as a series 2? The Sony and Toshiba units sell for considerably less. What's the deal with that?
I am not a stand-alone Tivo expert, but I am pretty sure Sony only branded Series 1 units. I think Toshiba only marketed DVD/Tivo combo units which are usually available with Tivo Basic service. Tivo Basic was a short-lived option that was free, but only gave you 3-days worth of guide data. It also didn't allow for season passes (recording all of a certain show) and suggestions (recording things it thinks you would like). The Tivo Basic service still works on these units, but it's no longer available in new boxes.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#289733 - 14/11/2006 01:45
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Given this cable company setup with the "family package", does one need 2 cable boxes as inputs to the TiVo? How does all this get hooked together so it can do its thing while we watch other stuff?
Until recently, only DirecTV Tivos would record two things at once. If you want to do that with cable, you would need one of the newer "DT" Series 2 Boxes. Since these are new, I don't think it's possible to buy/find one with a lifetime subscription.
You do not need two cables boxes on one tivo for these DT units. They cannot record from two cable box inputs at once. If you're using a channel only available with the cable box, the tivo will only be able to record another channel in the background that is accessible without a cable box.
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I can stick any old IDE hard disk in this thing, right? So I don't need to worry about getting a lower capacity unit?
Yes, all tivo units are easy to upgrade if you have PC skills.
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Do the series 2 models all have ethernet capability, or capability to add it? What about 802.11?
Most don't, but some (like the DT boxes) do. If a Series 2 doesn't have an ethernet port built-in, it can be added with a USB ethernet dongle. 802.11b/g is also an option.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#289734 - 14/11/2006 02:00
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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If you want all the latest features like tivo to go you need a stand alone series 2. The current software for the series 2 is crap. It is very, very slow but they will probably fix it someday.
I don't know if I would buy a new one now with the new cell phone model pricing but there really isn't a better option.
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Matt
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#289735 - 14/11/2006 04:55
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: msaeger]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Does buying a used series 2 with a lifetime subscription solve the issue with the cellphone pricing model?
How important is the dual tuner option anyway?
That is not good news about the newest software being crap...
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#289736 - 14/11/2006 11:48
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Yeah if they let you transfer the lifetime subscription it would just getting a used one might get you the old pricing too. They did say they were only going to charge the new pricing for new customers. I'm sure they will fix the software sometime but who knows when they won't even admit there is a problem. Depending on how this feature works it could be pretty interesting. Link
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Matt
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#289737 - 14/11/2006 16:25
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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TiVo is just about dead. Losing more money all the time and the new pricing model is only going to lose them more subscribers. Once their service goes you'll be left with a completely useless box. My advice is to take the money you're willing to spend on the TiVo and get yourself a PC running SageTV. Whether it be Sage for Windows or Sage for Linux. http://sagetv.com - they should have a list of companies pre-building finished units. The new version 6 software will be a significant improvement over the current v5. It's not a TiVo, but it's about the next best thing and does offer a lot of features not possible with any TiVo - including controlling two or more external tuner boxes. To run a second TV you just need to use a Media Extender (which can be a dedicated piece of pre-built hardware or a small PC running their Client or Placeshifter software). With their Placeshifter software you can also watch your recorded content from anywhere in the world with a net connection - so this gives you the bonus functionality of a SlingBox. Two other PC-basd solutions to look at are Microsoft's own MCE and ReplayTV's newest release. Sage and MCE have no monthly subscription fees.
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#289738 - 14/11/2006 17:58
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Bruno, do you have a SageTV box yourself?
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#289739 - 14/11/2006 18:35
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Yup, I've been running it as my primary TV for over a year now. I started with the beta version of 3.x (which was when they started official support for Canada) and then moved to one of the 4.x release versions. Last update was earlier this year to version 5. Every update went without a hitch too which is a must for what should be a consumer-type device.
Setting one up yourself from scratch is still a techy experience in my opinion. I had to swap in ffdshow/ffmpeg for my decoding because I was unhappy with the stock performance (it wasn't de-interlaced regardless of what their support department thought).
Not a problem for anyone on this board, but it's what's keeping the PC-based solution from the hands of many consumers. Most problems stem from the fact it runs on top of Windows though. The linux version would probably provide a much more seamless closed-box experience if someone else did the install. And a Mac version is in beta now and should be released sometime this year.
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#289740 - 14/11/2006 19:20
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Yup, I've been running it as my primary TV for over a year now.
So, is the EPG of any value whatsoever for strictly off-the-air use?
And I wonder if it could be made to work with a couple of ATI Remote's that I just happen to have lying around here... 
On an unrelated note, I took 3 hours this past Saturday to install Ubuntu-Edgy + MythTV onto my new designated PVR box, and spent the rest of the day watching HiDef CBC and trying to get the ATI remotes to do something meaningful. Looks like I'll need to set them up from scratch for MythTV.
The HDHomeRun HD dual-tuner box is really good, and works well here. It'll be nice for a lot of folks when SageTV finally supports it properly.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (14/11/2006 19:21)
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#289741 - 14/11/2006 21:16
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Assuming you're able I would seriously consider trying MythTV before taking the plunge and paying for Sage. Certainly over in the UK it works wonderfully with DVB-T cards for freeview channels especially since they included the EIT parser with gives an over the air 8 day EPG completely free. American users are also watching HD content with very little tweakery. Since the .18 release it's been really simple to install and the bootable distros make it even easier.
As for Sage, three of my friends wanted PVRs, seeing as they weren't proficient linux people I said they should try it. They all eventually went over to MCE instead after being totally underwhelmed.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#289742 - 14/11/2006 21:41
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Assuming you're able I would seriously consider trying MythTV before taking the plunge and paying for Sage.
Oh, definitely. I set up Myth this past Saturday afternoon.
But still on the to-do list for it:- Try and set up a program guide, if one exists for here.
- Get the bloody ATI remote control to generate Myth commands.
- Add some kind of failsafe thingie for mythbackend, as it has mysteriously died twice.
- Wire it up for real, and disconnect the VCRs and DVD players.
- Figure out how to get the Myth box to power-down between recordings (green planet).
Cheers
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#289743 - 14/11/2006 22:35
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Sorry Mark, I meant to reply to Jim, obviously you know 'a bit' about Linux!!  * Before they got the EIT parser working, the programme guide here in the UK used to get scraped from a website. It took ages and the resultant data wasn't always accurate. * When I moved over to the Sky Navigator remote it took ages to set up, even after LIRC had been set up. Although that's partly because it has a full QWERTY keyboard on it. * It happens now and again on mine. Although not often enough to require me to do anything about it other than restart the process. A cron task to check that there's still a process called mythbackend running or something? * Done that bar the DVD player, I haven't the storage to convert the 250-odd DVDs I own! * Did think about that, but now my backend also hosts my VPN, mail, DNS and web servers and just about everything else. So even when it's not recording or playing, odds are it's doing something else!
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#289744 - 14/11/2006 22:42
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Here are some questions about sage tv if you have the time.
Does it do suggestions ? I thought either sage or beyond did but now I can't find anywhere that says they do.
What do you use for a remote ?
How do you connect to the tv / what are you using for a tv ? My experience connecting a pc to my tv has not been good.
The software from replay isn't out yet is it ?
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Matt
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#289745 - 14/11/2006 22:43
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
A cron task to check that there's still a process called mythbackend running or something?
daemontools?
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Bitt Faulk
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#289746 - 15/11/2006 01:21
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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I will definitely look in to Myth and Sage. I'm pretty handy with computers and quite comfortable with UNIX command line stuff.
Here are a few questions I have after some poking around:
With a computer monitor, is this an inexpensive way to get HD? I'm just not ready to shell out a couple of grand for a new TV.
What tuner card to get? Seems like the pchdtv hd-3000 and the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 (or 350) are common choices. I can't figure out whether the Hauppauge are HDTV tuners or not.
There is a new Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 that has dual tuners, but it seems to be targeted to Windows MC exclusively. I haven't been able to figure out if this one will work with a Myth or linux Sage box, or if the dual tuners are HD or not.
What does one use for a remote control? Is a $200 universal remote going to be mandatory for one of these things to be truly usable?
Is Myth as capable (or more capable) than Sage? Is ease of installation all you get with Sage? What does one do for program listings in either case?
The thing that seemed coolest about Tivo was that it would record suggestions based on your viewing preferences and ratings. I have no idea how well this actually worked, but I really liked the idea of it. Do either of Sage or Myth have similar functionality?
Thanks everyone for the insight.
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#289747 - 15/11/2006 01:22
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: andym]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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What about channels that require the cable box? How do either of these systems control the cable box?
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#289748 - 15/11/2006 01:47
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
With a computer monitor, is this an inexpensive way to get HD? I'm just not ready to shell out a couple of grand for a new TV.
It works for me. But a 32" LCD television is only about US$500 or so (1366x768). A comparably almost-as-large (dimensions) LCD monitor is about US$1400 or so (but is much higher resolution).
The CBC transmits in 1920x1080i format, VERY high resolution. Looks sweet on my 17" notebook, so long as I sit close to it.
Quote:
What tuner card to get? Seems like the pchdtv hd-3000 and the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 (or 350) are common choices. I can't figure out whether the Hauppauge are HDTV tuners or not.
Those ones are not ATSC (HDTV). The PVR-350 is two-cards in one: a TV receiver, and a TV playback device. The playback part looks like it's on the way out (getting dropped) from Myth, though that may change again.
Quote:
There is a new Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 that has dual tuners
I have a PVR-500 in my Myth box. Works fine, but the receiver sensitivity is rumoured to be worse than that on the PVR-250. Research the PVR-500 carefully, as apparently there is a Windoze-only model out there, as well as the full featured one that I have.
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What does one use for a remote control? Is a $200 universal remote going to be mandatory for one of these things to be truly usable?
Best bet is to buy a Haugppauge card+remote combo pack. Guaranteed to work out of the box that way. I didn't. 
Quote:
Is Myth as capable (or more capable) than Sage? Is ease of installation all you get with Sage?
They look pretty darned similar on the surface, but Sage-for-windows is apparently much simpler to get set up. Dunno about the permanent second-class Sage-for-Linux "OEM" edition.
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What does one do for program listings in either case?
Sage offers a "free for the time being" program listing service with their software. Myth uses one of several free services from the internet. I haven't figure that part out yet for my situation (Canada, off-the-air only, no cable).
Quote:
The thing that seemed coolest about Tivo was that it would record suggestions based on your viewing preferences and ratings.
Sage claims to do something very similar. I don't think Myth does.
Cheers
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#289749 - 15/11/2006 01:47
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
What about channels that require the cable box? How do either of these systems control the cable box?
They both can control an IR transmitter to manage the cable box automatically.
-ml
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#289750 - 15/11/2006 15:02
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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An EPG is always useful. A PVR without one is not much more than a digital VCR - not nearly as functional and useful when it can't be automated.
Tribune, who provides data to Sage, do have many lineups for Canada. I'm not sure they have an Antenna listing as availability varies greatly by locale (which is normally dictated by postal code). You may have to customize one of the cable lineups to put the correct channels where you want them and disable the ones you don't want. You should be able to find this type of information in their forum.
The ATI Remote Wonder should work as long as the software you're using with it allows it to simulate keystrokes, etc. I don't think Sage has built-in support for it to allow you to run without other software.
Myth may be a fine "free" alternative for thos ethat like to be hands-on, but I just didn't like its concept of what a PVR should be. It broke many of my own personal design rules and was quickly eliminated as an option. Besides, $85 for SageTV when compared to the issues setting up Myth might as well have been free. You also get a full registered/lawful data feed. Tribune charges upward of $20k US per month for a bulk data feed, so getting this from Sage with every purchase is a HUGE bonus for the consumer. This data is essentially what any TiVo subscriber is paying for.
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#289751 - 15/11/2006 15:17
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
It broke many of my own personal design rules
You know, you mention this sort of thing quite a bit, and it's admirable that you have a focus on UI, but it always struck me as odd that you used to work for ATI, who has the worst UI record of any major computer vendor I can think of.
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Bitt Faulk
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#289752 - 15/11/2006 15:50
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
..You may have to customize one of the cable lineups to put the correct channels where you want them and disable the ones you don't want.
Okay, good to know that the software can do that.
Quote:
The ATI Remote Wonder should work as long as the software you're using with it allows it to simulate keystrokes, etc.
By default, it comes up with mouse/keyboard emulation on Linux. But many of the useful PVR buttons do nothing -- some can be remapped simply enough, but others don't actually get passed up at all from the kernel driver. I can hack that too, but I'm just trying to size up the effort versus Myth (same problem with Myth).
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$85 for SageTV when compared to the issues setting up Myth might as well have been free.
That's $85 for the first year, and then $25-30 for yearly upgrades.
I'm using Linux as the base platform regardless, and it sounds like SageTV is not much simpler than MythTV on the "Linux OEM edition". But for a pure Microsoft box (add $130 for *that* license), it would definitely make sense.
Thanks for helping us all out with the inside scoops!
Cheers
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#289753 - 15/11/2006 20:19
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
It broke many of my own personal design rules
You know, you mention this sort of thing quite a bit, and it's admirable that you have a focus on UI, but it always struck me as odd that you used to work for ATI, who has the worst UI record of any major computer vendor I can think of.
Bitt, has your experience with ATI been with PCs or Macs? Bruno worked for the Apple side. If you're refering to the PC side of things, then you're absolutely correct. That software is terrible. I really wish I didn't have to install it on my last system, but the driver alone wouldn't work...
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Matt
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#289754 - 15/11/2006 20:28
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, good point. The Windows side is what I was referring to.
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Bitt Faulk
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#289755 - 15/11/2006 22:47
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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One of the reasons I worked on the Mac team and one of the reasons I didn't make too many friends in the PC software division. All the PC software sucked. Or still sucks. The remote software, control panel, drivers, you name it.
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#289756 - 16/11/2006 03:07
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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I first got TiVo in December 2000 and have tried using software on PC's and it just doesn't compare to the TiVo. The TiVo just works, I the only time I put into the TiVo is using it to watch TV. All the other software I've tried, I'm always having to fiddle with something to make it work every month. Think about how much you would be billing someone else for the work your doing with the software bases PVR's you will quickly be willing to pay $10 - $20 a month for something that just works. Hell, I currently own 5 TiVo's. 3 Philips series 1 units, 1 Series 2 DT and 1 Series 3 unit. I'm only using 1 of my series 1 units at this time. I might sell the other 2 or give them away for X-mas. Now as for your questions: The the HD's can be upgraded in all units. I've upgraded all of my series 1 units. The 1 currently in use has 2 120GB drives and a CacheCard. The others have 1 120GB drive and a TurboNet. The series 1 units can have the custom network cards (TurboNet or CacheCard) added to them. The series 2 units have USB check TiVo's store for the adapter types. The series 2 DT and the Series 3 have 100MB ethernet port and USB for the Wireless adapter. Only the series 3 unit can record digital cable by getting a cable card from your cable provider. If you don't want the series 3 unit at this time (Only really needed if you want HDTV) and you can't receive the stations you want without the cable cable box you can only record one channel at a time. The TiVo will be connected to the cable box and will use an IR cable to tell the box to change the channel. This can cause problems as sometimes the channel might not change. Some cable boxes have a serial port that the TiVo can use instead of the IR cable, most people say they have near perfect channel changes with the serial cable. If you decide you can do without the cable box I would recommend the series 2 DT unit as it can record two stations at once. Also the series 2 units support all the HMO features and TiVoToGo. One of HMO features lets you view recordings on other TiVos in your house. TivoToGo lets your extract shows to the PC and watch them on it or transfer the show to some portable devices. Also please check out these forums This is the hacking underground site: They have extraction / show conversion and other stuff. http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/TiVo employees post here, but the site doesn't allow posts about non TiVoToGo extraction) / removing the DRM from TiVoToGo files. But it is one of the few sites I read daily. http://www.tivocommunity.com/I can would be glad to talk to you over the phone if you would like to know more.
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Chad
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#289757 - 16/11/2006 14:37
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: Attack]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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To be fair, I don't have to do any maintenance at all on my SageTV box. It was tricky to set up at the time, but it's more the fault of Windows than anything. I recommend turning OFF auto-update and anything else that may ever pop up any type of warning or take additional processing in the background.
Buying TiVo right now is like buying a gasoline car a couple of weeks before the supply of crude oil dries up. Not to mention its huge faults (aside from subscription): You can only record one source and the files are not immediately portable. With a PC-based solution you can record anywhere from 1 to 10 sources if you wanted to. In any combination of providers/lineups no less. This is true for software other than Sage as well, such as BeyondTV.
I hacked my DirecTV TiVo to hell and back, incouding adding LBA48 support and a 200GB drive. Setting up a TiVo with all the hacks, a cachecard, TiVoWeb, etc. is much more a pain in the butt than installing Sage on a Windows machine.
Both boxes also have something in common - neither is crash-proof. My Sage installation still hangs every now and then. Sometimes it goes months without dying though. I've got 600GB in it right now and am about to add an additional 250GB SATA I have lying around here. Version 6 supports transcoding recorded content, so anything I want to keep will be shrunk and the extra drive space may go to storing rips of my own DVDs (when I get around to that).
I loved the TiVo interface. I still think it's the leader and no one else seems to want to jump ono board some of their control paradigms. But TiVo is also doing really awful stuff like restricting recordings, adding advertisements and generally bowing down to the media moguls.
As an aside, I'd like to sell my version 2.x Cachecard with 512MB dimm. Any idea how much I can get for it?
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#289759 - 16/11/2006 19:55
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Ya directv users lucked out one this one I just signed up for the priority list.
_________________________
Matt
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#289760 - 18/11/2006 23:30
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
The software from replay isn't out yet is it ?
30 day trial is available now.
http://www.replaytv.com/
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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