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#290512 - 05/12/2006 16:36 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: robricc]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:
You think that most of those people want to live there?

I think a lot of them have no problem living there.

Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity. They figure out how to get a Dunkin Donuts, 7-Eleven, or gas station franchises and make something of themselves and future generations.



Non-Blacks entering black neighborhoods and "Making good for themselves" has caused a lot resentment, bigotry and backlash from blacks.

I suppose a lot of the reason many blacks are on welfare is because it’s a family tradition. But man, wakeup and break the cycle. At least don't trash the 7/11 because an Asian family is trying and doing well.

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#290513 - 05/12/2006 17:14 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:
Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity.

You think it was free to come here? These people packed up their entire lives to come here, paying for a number of airline tickets, paying enough to get a Dunkin Donuts franchise, enough to buy or rent a building to house it in, etc. If you gave those poor Americans the same amount of money, they'd have the same opportunities.

Just as an example, the Subway franchise seems to be the foreigner franchise of choice down here. This link claims a Subway can be opened for "as little as $87,300", and goes on to comment that "costs are so low". You think those poor families have $87,300 lying around? The Dunkin Donuts franchise web site says "For Dunkin' Donuts store territories, minimum liquid assets is $650-750K and net worth of $1.2 - $1.5million depending on the markets. Some markets require a minimum number of units developed." They certainly don't have that kind of scratch.

Of course, none of this means that there aren't people out there that have no desire to improve themselves. Many of us have the ability to coast along and not be poor, but many don't.


New arrival to the US:

1) Sell everything and leave everything you know and come to America

2) Go magorly in debt to by a crappie little shop

3) Sleep in the back room of the shop when not working 20 hours a day to keep it going. Try to learn, on the fly, how to operate a business in a country you’re not familiar with.

4) After working for years finally move out of the back room to an apartment.

5) Maybe someday make something for yourself before you die


Current USA poor resident

1) Live in a apartment - provided free by the government

2) Have no worries of going hungry – food stamps provided by the government

3) Free heath care at the local clinic - provided by the government

4) Free welfare money. Also, more kids, more money, so have a lot – money provided by the government

5) Free holiday gifts and food – provided by local free stores

6) Have all day free to hang out at the corner drinking a 40

Most people don’t want to decrease their standard of living so taking out a loan, living in the back room, working hard, why bother.

However, back on subject, maybe the guy that ripped off the hair clippers will sart his own business and he did him a favor by not taking him down


Edited by Redrum (05/12/2006 17:18)

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#290514 - 05/12/2006 17:17 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
While there is a lot of laziness in poor communities (not that there's not also a lot of laziness in middle-class and rich communities, too), it's really hard to break the cycle of poverty when the best job you can get is working retail. A minimum wage job is under $11,000 a year, and there's unlikely to be any health insurance or paid time off in such a job.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290515 - 05/12/2006 17:22 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994

Quote:
While there is a lot of laziness in poor communities (not that there's not also a lot of laziness in middle-class and rich communities, too), it's really hard to break the cycle of poverty when the best job you can get is working retail. A minimum wage job is under $11,000 a year, and there's unlikely to be any health insurance or paid time off in such a job.


I agree. We should make public services less appealing so as to add motivation for the poor to get off the dime. While supporting job growth.

I personally know two people that got "disability" (a higher payout from the government for not being able to work). You would have thought they hit the lottery they were so happy. One is a crack-head who got on disability for attention deficit disorder (come on) the another one was just fat, lazy and didn't want to work. He got on disability for bad knees (yea, he weights 400 pounds because he just sits on his ass and eats).

The thought that I have to support these people for life makes me sick.


Edited by Redrum (05/12/2006 17:37)

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#290516 - 05/12/2006 17:32 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
1) Live in a apartment - provided free by the government

The projects in my city are largely not free. In addition, getting a job doesn't increase your rent for 18 months, so you won't be taking in less money just because you started working.

Quote:
3) Free heath care at the local clinic - provided by the government

Free clinics are not run by the government, but they are largely open only during business hours and even then desperately understaffed, which means that people usually get sent away.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290517 - 05/12/2006 17:33 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
We should make public services less appealing

How should they be less appealing? They're pretty unappealing as is.

Of course, none of this shows me how black people are responsible for this situation.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290518 - 05/12/2006 17:49 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:
1) Live in a apartment - provided free by the government

The projects in my city are largely not free. In addition, getting a job doesn't increase your rent for 18 months, so you won't be taking in less money just because you started working.

Quote:
3) Free heath care at the local clinic - provided by the government

Free clinics are not run by the government, but they are largely open only during business hours and even then desperately understaffed, which means that people usually get sent away.



In my part of the country we have section 8 housing and other housing benefits that provides free housing, for life. We also have “city” hospitals that are required to take all patients regardless of the ability to pay. My cousin was a nurse at one for a time. I imagine the hospital receives subsidies from the government for this requirement. The services are limited mostly to emergency services. So if you’re poor and have a cold you go to the trauma center for treatment. This then clogs the trauma center with sore throat victims while real trauma patents are left waiting. Also the cost of a trauma center visit is much more expensive than a doctor’s office call. Eventually tax payers pay the cost.

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#290519 - 05/12/2006 18:02 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: robricc]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:

See the Pound Cake Speech. I guess Bill Cosby (a black man) is also a fool.

I don't know if you're trying to be politically correct or if you're just burdened with a tremendous amount of white guilt.

I didn't look for anything to disprove Billy's "statistics," but I think it should be noted that I had to reason to doubt them. I know which neighborhoods to stay away from at night.

I think a lot of them have no problem living there.

Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity. They figure out how to get a Dunkin Donuts, 7-Eleven, or gas station franchises and make something of themselves and future generations.

Take a drive through Spring Valley, NY and you see black guys during all hours of the day on the street corner, drinking out of paper bags, and hanging out in bodegas. I know of no other community of people where such a large number of young males simply don't work.

Yeah, there are bad white neighborhoods, but I can only think of two within 100 miles of me. Every black neighborhood I can think of is considered bad, and not just by me. A glance at any local paper will let you know.




Wow Rob, I like you, but you are saying some really ignorant shit in this thread. I don't have "White Guilt". And I never said his statistics were not correct in numbers, I disagree with the conclusions that people draw because of them. It means NOTHING when you say that "black people commit most crimes" while that may be statistically true, their commiting of crimes has nothing to do with the color of their skin (in an absolute sense) and almost everything to do with every other reason. Of course, all too often their situation is indirectly influenced because of their color.

But to say that a black man is more likely to commit a crime because he is black is ignorant, racist and wrong.

Do you REALLY think that anyone wants to live in a poor neighborhood? and your comment about Asians and others coming to this country and running conveinence stores?? What the hell are you even trying to say? Are you implying that blacks are poor because they are lazy? Did you think before you sat down at your keyboard? I don't know if you are trying to be offensive, but it's working on me.


Edited by ithoughti (05/12/2006 18:03)

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#290520 - 05/12/2006 18:02 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
All emergency rooms nationwide are required to accept all patients regardless of their ability to pay.

I'm not sure how this is an argument that we should have fewer government services. The notion of having basic medical care available to all citizens would alleviate this, admittedly existent, problem.

I'm glad that I don't have to make the choice between getting my illness looked at or making $45 that day. I'd rather more people didn't have to make that choice.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290521 - 05/12/2006 18:02 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: cushman]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12053
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Quote:
his lesson included diagrams, like a shot of a four lane highway with cars side-by-side in each lane, all going 55. I would love to see that on an actual highway.

Your wish...

That was pretty crazy! The production quality was pretty amatuer (college drama folks), but the experiment was interesting. I'm amazed they weren't shot or something.
_________________________
Matt

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#290522 - 05/12/2006 18:09 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
How should they be less appealing? They're pretty unappealing as is.


Lowering the service and time spent on the service would be a start. As well as providing more proof that the service is required.

Another personal example – An acquaintance of the family - 24 year old white female, unmarried - got pregnant while living with her boy friend -30 year old white male making +$50 a year and owns his own house. They did not get married and he did not put her on his insurance because she could get free heath care for her and her pregnancy, free food stamps, as well as probably free housing money. The government (me and you) basically paid for this guy to knock up his girl friend, have the kid and add to their income. After the kid was born and the government service ran out he married her.

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#290523 - 05/12/2006 18:11 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3155
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
The services are limited mostly to emergency services. So if you’re poor and have a cold you go to the trauma center for treatment.

This is true.

Quote:
This then clogs the trauma center with sore throat victims while real trauma patents are left waiting.

This, however, is BS. It does jam the ER rooms, but as one who's spent plenty of time queuing up at ER (mostly for stitches and xrays), I can tell you that the real trauma patients are not left waiting. The real trauma patients take priority over the people with sniffles and sneezes. It's the triage receiving nurse's responsibility to categorize how important your emergency really is. I have been left to sit in a room, waiting for xray results, while the doctor went off to attend to car accident victims.

Quote:
Also the cost of a trauma center visit is much more expensive than a doctor’s office call. Eventually tax payers pay the cost.

This is true. And what angers me more, especially as a tax-payer, is that paying for ER visits like this is more expensive than providing preventative health care through a national health care program.

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#290524 - 05/12/2006 18:12 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
That's pretty scumbaggy. What do you want me to say? "I'm surprised they weren't black"?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290525 - 05/12/2006 18:28 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Are you implying that blacks are poor because they are lazy?



While it is undeniable that on average some races are shorter, some are stronger and some have darker skin. Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work. I guess these less tangible traits are more easily excused away by other factors.

The USA may maintain that all men are equal, in regards to rights, but God (or evolution) did not make everyone the same.

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#290526 - 05/12/2006 18:31 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
That's pretty scumbaggy. What do you want me to say? "I'm surprised they weren't black"?


You should say. Damn I wish the government (more and more lead by bleeding heart liberals) won't give my money to scum-bags.

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#290527 - 05/12/2006 18:37 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:
Quote:
Are you implying that blacks are poor because they are lazy?



While it is undeniable that on average some races are shorter, some are stronger and some have darker skin. Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work. I guess these less tangible traits are more easily excused away by other factors.

The USA may maintain that all men are equal, in regards to rights, but God (or evolution) did not make everyone the same.



Well, then I'm going to imply that whatever race you are is retarded.

(that's a joke people!)

I DARE you to tell my black PhD student gf that her race is inferior to any other race. Go ahead, I DARE you. Ignorant prick.

God damn, I am so upset by the ignorant statements in this thread.


Edited by ithoughti (05/12/2006 18:39)
_________________________
---------
//matt

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#290528 - 05/12/2006 18:42 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you implying that blacks are poor because they are lazy?



While it is undeniable that on average some races are shorter, some are stronger and some have darker skin. Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work. I guess these less tangible traits are more easily excused away by other factors.

The USA may maintain that all men are equal, in regards to rights, but God (or evolution) did not make everyone the same.



Well, then I'm going to imply that whatever race you are is retarded.

(that's a joke people!)

I DARE you to tell my black PhD student gf that her race is inferior to any other race. Go ahead, I DARE you. Ignorant prick.

God damn, I am so upset by the ignorant statements in this thread.


I can tell. You have really been downing everyone.

I just said what you've been prodding everyone else to say. The difference is I don’t give a shit what pompous asses like you think. See I can lower myself to name calling too.

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#290529 - 05/12/2006 18:49 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:

I can tell. You have really been downing everyone.

I just said what you've been prodding everyone else to say. The difference is I don’t give a shit what pompous asses like you think. See I can lower myself to name calling too.


Well, certainly my name-calling isn't very nice or productive, but I don't think I'd consider myself pompous. Let me ask you, do you consider your race superior to another?
_________________________
---------
//matt

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#290530 - 05/12/2006 18:55 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
I DARE you to tell my black PhD student gf that her race is inferior to any other race. Go ahead, I DARE you. Ignorant prick.

.


No because on average blacks are stronger (superior to whites, it works both ways) than whites and I'd get my ass kicked. However many blacks do see reality so maybe I’d be OK.

For name calling let me add to your day. More firewood - I like that "student" not "students." Try counting the PhD Asians.

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#290531 - 05/12/2006 18:58 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ithoughti]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:

I can tell. You have really been downing everyone.

I just said what you've been prodding everyone else to say. The difference is I don’t give a shit what pompous asses like you think. See I can lower myself to name calling too.


Well, certainly my name-calling isn't very nice or productive, but I don't think I'd consider myself pompous. Let me ask you, do you consider your race superior to another?


Sorry I do not. Just with different strengths and weaknesses. God or evolution enabled some races with different traits in order to better deal with survival.

My white ass would not last a weak in the desert.

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#290532 - 05/12/2006 19:40 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31181
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work.

Because THOSE traits are not controlled by the same genes that control skin color. There is more variation of those traits within the same race than there is across races. Assuming that skin color affects something like intelligence is the most basic definition of racism.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#290533 - 05/12/2006 20:05 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: tfabris]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 994
Quote:
Quote:
Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work.

Because THOSE traits are not controlled by the same genes that control skin color. There is more variation of those traits within the same race than there is across races. Assuming that skin color affects something like intelligence is the most basic definition of racism.


OK, maybe so. And thanks for not downing me and civilly discussing this.

I do agree that external factors weigh heavily in determining a person’s “being.” However many emotional and mental traits are influenced by heredity. To broaden that line of thinking many emotional and mental traits can be attributed to race IMO.

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#290534 - 05/12/2006 20:18 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Redrum]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Honestly, I can't believe that you're actually arguing the point that black people are stupid and lazy.

I'm completely dumbfounded.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290535 - 05/12/2006 20:58 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3824
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Come one Bitt, didn't you know that Jews are more likely to know how to handle money purely because of their parents religious affiliation? This stuff is common knowledge! Seriously... this thread is scary.

Read this.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin...5926119779Guest
Study about how stereotypes influence perception of local crime despite the evidence.

and search google for "racial attributes stereotypes" or something similar... and read up.
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#290536 - 05/12/2006 21:04 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Your link doesn't work (it looks like it's requiring a cookie only you have) and the fix isn't immediately obvious.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290537 - 05/12/2006 21:06 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: tfabris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
There is more variation of those traits within the same race than there is across races. Assuming that skin color affects something like intelligence is the most basic definition of racism.


There are measurable differences in several traits across races, but you're right that those traits vary greatly between individuals. So while on average whites have a higher IQ than blacks, you can't say that *all* whites are smarter than *all* blacks.

It's not racism though; there have been several studies on this subject. You just don't hear about it because: a) People like ithoughti will put their fingers in their ears and say "lalalala" and b) Every politician in support of socialism for the purpose of keeping their powerbase as poor as possible so they can stay in power will pull the race card and call you a racist.

But real racism is "I went to kill all jews and lynch all blacks" or "If you're white we'll make it harder for you to get accepted into this university" (affirmative action on that last one). Pointing out very evident problems in certain cultures and societies, for the purpose of eradication of those problems, is NOT racism. Calling it racism is basically saying "you're a liar, and these problems don't actually exist". But they do exist.

For the subject of Race vs. IQ, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_IQ

To sum it up, here are the average IQ's of a few different races/ethnicities.

Code:

IQ Race/ethnicity
115 Ashkenazi Jews
105 East asians
99 Europeans
91 Hispanics
91 Inuit
87 African americans
87 Southeast asians and american indians
85 Pacific islanders
84 Middle easterners
67 Subsaharan africans
62 Australian aborigines



You don't see me getting in a hissy fit because scientific studies show that Jews and East Asians are on average smarter than my race. Why don't I care? Because: a) these statistics don't affect me as an individual and b) i know it's not racism.

But when I see things like affirmative action, forced desegregation in schools, minority favoritism in workplaces, then THAT's racism. And there are also tons of double standards, like Kramer calling a guy a nigger while the black guy calls him a "cracker-ass fucking white boy". Guess which one was "an outrage"?

Quote:
The projects in my city are largely not free. In addition, getting a job doesn't increase your rent for 18 months, so you won't be taking in less money just because you started working.


Would you rather sit on your ass and do whatever you want for $10,000 per year, or would you rather work your ass off 40 hours a week for $15,000 per year? Read up on the welfare trap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap.

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#290538 - 05/12/2006 21:14 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Come one Bitt, didn't you know that Jews are more likely to know how to handle money purely because of their parents religious affiliation? This stuff is common knowledge! Seriously... this thread is scary.

Read this.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin...5926119779Guest
Study about how stereotypes influence perception of local crime despite the evidence.

and search google for "racial attributes stereotypes" or something similar... and read up.


If you read that first link in my above post:

"At Harvard, for example, Asian American and Jewish students together make up 51% of the student body, though only constituting roughly 6% of the US population."

Coincidence? Racism? No, fact. It's not a myth that Jews held a disproportionately high number of well-paying jobs in pre-WWII Germany. Does that mean we should try to hold them back? Or should we just put them all in gas chambers for being so smart?

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#290539 - 05/12/2006 21:19 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Racism is, quite simply, the assumption of a trait based on race. This can range from assuming that black people are lazy to assuming that asian people are smart.

Virtually no race is excused from environment, which can be based on the culture surrounding that race. I'd be very, very, interested in seeing a survey of people raised by adoptive parents of a different race and then comparing those numbers against those of "traditional" families. I seriously doubt we'll ever see such a study, though, because the people who are likely to be interested in this line of study aren't interested in separating race and culture.

Also, I find it seriously hard to believe that the average Australian Aborigine is less than two-thirds as smart as the Australian of European descent living next door. I think that points more to a bias of the test than an accurate assessment of intelligence.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290540 - 05/12/2006 21:23 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
A notable commonality between the Jewish and Asian cultures you're talking about is a strong desire for parental approval. Coincidence?

No one also ever does studies of white-to-white immigration, like Americans in France or Swedes in the US. What would the education rate of second-generation immigrants look like there? Guess what, no one does studies like that because they don't look different enough for anyone to notice.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#290541 - 05/12/2006 21:29 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: wfaulk]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Racism is, quite simply, the assumption of a trait based on race. This can range from assuming that black people are lazy to assuming that asian people are smart.


I disagree. I believe that racism is the act of oppressing and ruling other races. Is it racism to assume certain traits such as eye color or hair type if you know only the person's race? Of course not.

But of course, we're talking about behavorial traits. And I agree that culture is the main influence on behavior, but races and cultures usually line up together. Note the difference between "African americans" and "Subsaharan africans" in the IQ studies.

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