Flakey volume control

Posted by: Aragon

Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 01:52

Hi,

Over time my volume control has become more and more of a pain. Sometimes the volume goes down when I'm trying to turn it up, sometimes it doesn't move in speed with my adjustment, and lately it adjusts itself while driving (from vibration I guess).

Does anyone have more information on the component that adjusts volume, specifically what the component is called? I know it's not a potentiometer.

Does anyone know if it'd be possible to replace the rotary control with a pair of up/down buttons to adjust volume? (disregarding the necessary changes to the fascia)


Thanks,
Aragon
Posted by: andy

Re: Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 05:34

I believe it is called a rotary encoder. I suffer from the first of the problems you listed, sometimes when I turn the knob only a couple of notches the setting goes the wrong way.

I sometimes see the second issue, with the volume/menu taking a while to catch up with my movements. I put that down to the player being busy accessing the disk to cache the next chunk of the current track.
Posted by: maczrool

Re: Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 10:00

Yes, the component is a rotary encoder, made by Alps. I believe it is of the incremental varity. You probably could implement a push button interface, but it would almost certainly require a code rewrite in the player software. Most incremental rotary encoders send out pulses on 2 different channels per rotation with one being 90 degrees out of phase with the other, resulting in a quadrature signal. They output their pulses at a set pattern, which allows the MCU or whatever is interpreting the pulses to determine direction of rotation. It is definitely different from what a push button generates.

If anyone cares to clarify/ poke fun of my explanation please feel free .

Stu
Posted by: 753

Re: Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 11:59

I suffer from the first of the problems you listed, sometimes when I turn the knob only a couple of notches the setting goes the wrong way

Same here.

I sometimes see the second issue, with the volume/menu taking a while to catch up with my movements.

I see that also sometimes, and I've got a Mk2a so slipping shouldn't be the cause. Actually I have never seen one of the two issues on my Mk2, but I havn't used my Mk2 much since I have the Mk2a.
Posted by: MRHJr

Re: Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 15:42

While we're on the subject, bring back the volume increments of 2.0b11!!! I severely dislike having to turn the knob 3 revolutions to gain considerable volume.
Posted by: mrfixit

Re: Flakey volume control - 08/03/2003 20:41

"I severely dislike having to turn the knob 3 revolutions to gain considerable volume"
I agree with that. As for the vol. encoder, it's the same prob that pots. have when they get "scratchy" if you can get a drop of WD-40 in the encoder then move it around it will solve the problem. Hey you can believe it or not but thats what I have used for 12 years on vcr "mode switches" which is nothing but a flat encoder, the WD-40 lubes as well as cleans just don't go crazy with it
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/03/2003 10:28

Hi,

I was poking around and found reference to Caig DeoxIT (http://www.caig.com/) for cleaning them. Apparently also works well!


Regards,
Aragon
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/03/2003 15:32

While we're on the subject, bring back the volume increments of 2.0b11!!! I severely dislike having to turn the knob 3 revolutions to gain considerable volume.
I don't remember there being any change in the volume adjustment between b11 and b13. But if there was, I prefer tight granularity as opposed to speed in changing the volume.

I'd suggest, MRHJr, that you could fix this by putting in a Hijack button mapping.

The proper solution to this would be to adjust acceleration in the volume knob. The faster it's turned, the faster the volume goes up. The slower it's turned, the more granularity you have. As long as I can adjust the volume with the same precision I have now, anything is fine.

One of the unexpected benefits of the empeg was how precisely I could change the volume. On other stereos, I often found that the proper volume was in between two clicks, and I've never had that problem with the empeg.
Posted by: elvis

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 10:58

BOTH of my MK2a's have had the first issues (reducing volume, or not moving much) since they were new. I figured this was just an artifact of the control.

On another note, my backup empeg has kept correct time (only adding one minute) for a MONTH!
Posted by: mrfixit

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 12:29

Speaking of time, both of my empegs keep the correct time as long as I don't use them in the car, figure that one out.
Posted by: tonyc

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 12:35

Speaking of time, both of my empegs keep the correct time as long as I don't use them in the car, figure that one out.
This wouldn't happen to be your car, would it?

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 15:49

The proper solution to this would be to adjust acceleration in the volume knob. The faster it's turned, the faster the volume goes up

I think that is how it works now.

tanstaafl.
Posted by: mrfixit

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 20:17

Hey, thats pretty good I love those cars. Lets not forget about Christian's
Posted by: MRHJr

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/03/2003 22:15

I can't say for sure, it was either between beta 7 to 11 or 11 to 13.
There was a patch made by the empeg boys to handle flaky volume control. It was this patch I believe made it into b11, but was changed back in b13.
My history: problems before patch, no problems after patch, problems again after change in beta 13. Of couse I could be talking out my rear.
Posted by: sirmanson

Re: Flakey volume control - 29/05/2003 07:23

I am having problems with this too. I am running 2.0 Final and the latest hijack. Any ideas on a way to correct this? I am tired of turning the volume "down" and having the empeg BLAST it way up.
Thanks,
Posted by: loren

Re: Flakey volume control - 29/05/2003 09:42

I've had this problem for a long time too... and the only real solution is to replace the rotary controller. Apparently Support has a few dozen replacements, but i haven't recieved a response for weeks. There's a discussion of the part number in this thread, but no difinitive answer has been given as to the part number... just the manufacturer.
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 29/05/2003 13:46

I'm also looking for a replacement. In fact maybe two to be safe. Have also mailed support.
Posted by: jarob10

Re: Flakey volume control - 29/05/2003 23:29

Interesting ....

For all the glories of the empeg user interface, for me the volume control is one of the unsung heroes.

I can jump 50+ dB just by the briefest-single-gesture spin of the dial. Rarely do I have to make any fine adjustments beyond that to get the volume just-so. Being in a RH drive car may help though

Shame the tuner volume control is not so intuitive
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 09:37

I received a reply to my support email from Rob. He has spares but asked for money via Paypal. Paypal doesn't work from my country. Anyone know of alternatives?
Posted by: rob

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 10:38

I thought anyone could pay via PayPal using a credit card?

Rob
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 11:15

No, it is restricted to certain countries only.. or rather to credit cards issued by financial institutes in certain countries only.
Posted by: mlord

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 14:10

International postal money order, perhaps
Posted by: pgrzelak

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 14:13

If you don't mind my asking, how much are we talking about? $10? $100? $1,000? It might be far easier just to arrange for some kind of trade with someone who has a paypal account they can send from.
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 14:22

Thanks. I will ask Rob S. when he replies to my last mail.
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 14:24

I think they're $10 each and I'd like to try get two.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Flakey volume control - 09/06/2003 14:35

I think they're $10 each and I'd like to try get two.
<AOL mode> Me too! </AOL mode>
Posted by: sirmanson

Re: Flakey volume control - 10/06/2003 09:06

I definately need at least one. I'm sick of trying to turn something down and getting blasted out of the seat.
Posted by: lopan

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 12:14

Count me in as well... mine is acting simply freakish..
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 12:24

I'm wondering if additional software corrections could compensate for the problems some of us are having with the volume knob.

Mine usually behaves itself just fine, except when I'm trying to turn it very slowly and carefully exactly one click louder. Then, a tiny bit of noise from the contact, and the player shoots from -20db all the way up to 0db in an instant. That can't be right, we should be able to debounce that in software.

Anyone?
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 12:28

My only problem is that sometimes the physical clicks become disconnected from the logical clicks. The most common occurance of this is when I'm trying to go one click up slowly and nothing happens, so I move it another click and two occur at once, and the speed with which those two happen often throws it into acceleration mode, and the logical change will be well more than one. This happens most often in the menus and not in volume, but that's probably just because I'm attempting to be precise in the menus more often.
Posted by: lopan

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 12:35

maybe a patch? Something to fix that and the scanning problem in tuner mode would rock...
Posted by: mlord

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 13:14

The knob is handled almost completely in kernel space (eg. Hijack), so if anyone out there would like to redo the code for it, source is available to us all!

Cheers
Posted by: sirmanson

Re: Flakey volume control - 12/06/2003 15:55

That would be awsome! As well as saving quite a few of us from replacing our knobs.
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Flakey volume control - 13/06/2003 00:19

The knob is handled almost completely in kernel space (eg. Hijack)
If that's the case then why does the Hijack menu respond to turning the knob so much better than the the volume control, menus etc?

It would appear there is some other extra debouncing in the player software though. I remember seeing something about the knob being debounced in player software before I even got my empeg. Or am I making this up?
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Flakey volume control - 13/06/2003 06:12

Good question, Shonky. I personally don't notice the knob behaving any differently in the player software than in the Hijack menu, though, can you describe the differences you notice?

I had another "experience" with the volume knob yesterday that I wanted to share and wondered if anyone else had seen the same thing.

- I was trying to turn the volume from about -30 up to -10.

- I turned the knob quickly, to reach into the teens.

- As I got closer to my goal of -10, I slowed my rate of turn.

- At -10.50, I slowed my rate of turn so that I was carefully and gently trying to get that "one last click" to get it to -10.00.

- As that last click was happening, it shot past -10, all the way up to 0db and I was blasted.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Flakey volume control - 13/06/2003 06:18

Here's another question...

Recently, I started having trouble with the analog joystick on one of the Nintendo Gamecube controllers. Not wanting to buy another one, I dismantled the controller, desoldered the analog X/Y potentiometer assembly, dismantled the troubled potentiometer, cleaned it carefully with isopropyl alcohol, reassembled, and resoldered. The joystick works like it was brand new again.

Does anyone know what the innards of the empeg's rotary encoder are like? Is it possible that it would benefit from a similar procedure?
Posted by: sirmanson

Re: Flakey volume control - 13/06/2003 13:17

My Empeg does this all of the time. I have noticed the same behaviour in Hijack (modifying left right delay)
Posted by: genixia

Re: Flakey volume control - 13/06/2003 18:41

Does anyone know what the innards of the empeg's rotary encoder are like? Is it possible that it would benefit from a similar procedure
I haven't looked, but I'd have to wonder whether it's worth it. Every time you de-/re- solder the encoder you are risking potential damage to the display board. I'd hate to go through the motions only to discover that my cleaning wasn't good enough and that I had to replace it anyway. For $10 it's probably worth just replacing it to start with. If it were a $40 part then it'd be a different matter. If it is possible to easily dismantle the encoder without desoldering it first (doubtful), then perhaps it's worth a shot.
Posted by: Derek

Re: Flakey volume control - 15/06/2003 15:40

Mike has debounce software in there, and it does work reasonably well. My knob has also got worse and worse over time. The shaft has become quite sloppy in the housing and you can change its behaviour by adding a little sideways pressure to the knob/shaft (I have a mk 2, not a 2a). I have an originaly replacement pot., but I am considering fitting a mk 2a unit as the quality is supposed to be much better. The only problem there is that the original is surface mount and the mk 2a unit is thru hole. In my case software is no use at all, it is definitely a hardware problem, and I think some of you may be starting to see the same problem too.

Cheers
Derek
Posted by: jwickis

Re: Flakey volume control - 15/06/2003 19:55

Does anyone know what the innards of the empeg's rotary encoder are like?

Not sure about the players exact makeup, but plan to soon for mine is getting very erratic as well. Most are either a metal slider contacting a graphite base or all metal contacts with some grease. From what I've noticed taking things apart over the years is a paste is formed between the contacts and your alcohol removed this. The noise comes from signal making small arcs from searching for a contact path.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Flakey volume control - 15/06/2003 20:57

Derek and Jwickis, thanks for this information. It's very enlightenting.