80GB HD in empeg!

I just took delivery of a new Hitachi 80GB Travelstar (thanks Paul for finding these)!

One word: TINY! I can't get over how much smaller this is than the IBM Travelstar 48GB and 60GB drives.... I'm running the builder right now, I'll update on the install later tonight or tomorrow (depends on how long it takes to transer 48GB to this thing).

I guess that for a few hours (until Paul puts TWO of these things in) I'll have the largest capacity empeg!

Greetings!

I actually hope to have at least one player at 160GB tonight. But, meanwhile...



My plan is to use two players, build two drives as masters. Then I will have each as a master with one of the 60s from my previous installation as slaves. After doing a disk to disk copy, it should be set. Reassemble and test. Repeat.

I hope to take a photo of emplode with 2 empty 80s, to see what space is available.

You're just sick. You two are going to make me go ahead and buy at least two of these. Let me know how everything goes!

-Chuck

Now copying files... Looks good! I'll at least have 15 min. of fame from this. :P

Greetings!

Um, sorry... I had at least hoped to get 150GB (real space) out of the 160GB (marketing space).

Ouch...... Denied (In Quake 3 announcer voice)

Yeah, but I am cheating. I am using two players to build the drives and copy the original disks. That, and the emplode snapshot was an empty player. Brad will have the higher capacity player fully functional before I do. I just wanted to find out how much space it would really give you, and (to be honest) to be the first to get the dual 80 laptop drive configuration working in emplode...

Ouch. That does suck. It's not even close to 150:

% dc -e "5 k 1000 3 ^ 1024 3 ^ / 160 * p"      

149.01120

It's frustrating that we're now ``losing'' more space due to manufacturers' prevarications than we could get all told ten years ago.

Hehe, dangit you beat me! I always knew it'd be a 5 minutes of fame thing - so I guess when I started copying files over, I had the record for a few minutes (128GB)..

I don't think these drives will be a problem. They are low speed (4800rpm compared to 5600 in the 48 and 60GB Travelstars) so they will generate less heat. Also, they are rated at the same 5.0v 1a power draw. I'm guessing the smaller size will be less mass to move too.

Drive makers need to get with the program here as far as rating capacity goes.. a decade ago, losing a few hundrew MB was no big deal, but now we are being denied GB's! Laptop, LCD and television manufactuers caught on to listing "actual" sizes, why can't HD be the same way?

Greetings!

It would be nice. But all of the other manufacturers were forced to change due to litigation. Drive manufacturers are very clear to mention in their literature that 80GB means 80,000,000,000 bytes. Pity.

Meanwhile, I am taking my time for the copy. How long did your copy take? Do you have any throughput estimates?

It hasn't been copying more than an hour.... I'm going to keep a close eye on it. I had only 200mb free on the 48GB drive, so we should be able to figure it out when it's done. I wish hyperterminal did timestamping..

Greetings!

13.5 hours later, my 60GB of data has been copied to the 80GB drives. Now, I am doing an fsck on the drives to make certain everything is marked clean. After that, I will attempt to assemble a player with all my data on the two 80GB drives and test it out. If all goes well, I will start building the others.

I haven't done the math of the throughput yet. It seemed slower than I thought it would be, but not horribly so...

Paul (or anyone),

Can you tell me how to get data from a full 60gb player (2x30gb) onto the two 60GB drives that I'm buying from you using only a single player? I realize that the files are stored on the drives like regular files, but I also know there is a database of FIDs somewhere and that complicates matters. What about metadata (times played, etc)? I'll reload if I need to, but 60GB at 10Mbit/sec blows. I have to do that once already to fill up the second 60GB.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

Thanks for the update. If everything seems to work perfectly for you, I'm going to order a couple of these drives. Thanks for making me spend even more money.

Have you read the excellent disk upgrade guide? I believe it answers all your questions (for instance look at step 7 "Step 7: Copying files (special circumstances only)" - if not get back with any specifics unanswered.

/Michael

Erm... <blush>, Ooops. I'll check the FAQ...

Awright, I *do* have a question after reading the FAQ...

I understand that whole business and it makes great sense for how to copy all of the data from primary drive to the replacement primary drive. What about secondary to secondary? It seems to me that with both secondary drives installed there won't be anything to boot. It seems to me there are two reasonable options after copying the data on the old secondary drive:

1. Install a developer image on the new secondary drive so it will function temporarily as a primary drive. For all I know both drives have boot and OS data on them anyway, but I don't think this is the case. (Is this correct? The player software installs boot/OS, right? The builder image just formats and partitions the disks? If so, doesn't the player/OS data just get written to the primary disk?).

2. I can copy the data from the old primary to the new secondary and then from the old secondary to the new primary. I don't see why this wouldn't work, but I'm not sure. Possibly config.ini could be a problem? What about partition 3 metadata? That is only stored on the first drive, isn't it?Comments?

Thanks again. I apologize if this is obvious and these are stupid questions.

Jim

Ummm. OK, the boot image and OS is probably on the flash, right? Then both drives are just data drives? If so, is the dynamic data partition and the config.ini on *both* drives?

I gave up on my 48GB transfer after 4.5 hours and went to bed. I'm happy to say the upgrade went flawlessly. I'm uploading albums already - everything is working great.

TigerJimmy, as Michael pointed out, the Upgrade guide explains it all. It's a very well writen tutorial. Basically, treat what you are doing as 2 upgrades. First you are replaceing one of the drives, then the other.

Jimmy, read the whole thing again. You install the player software on both drives (even though the player only uses the Primary for player software). The only real differance between Primary and Secondary is the jumper position.

In reply to:

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With the new drive still plugged in, apply the developer upgrade of the player software. You know, the one that you had ready ahead of time. You should do this even if the drive is only intended as a secondary drive. The reasons are multifold: To prevent the kernel from trying to fry the old disk when you attach it in the next step, to make sure all the folders are in their proper places, and to let the drive work as a "backup" drive should the primary drive fail. If you are formatting two fresh, blank disks, you should install the the developer build onto both of them (by swapping them into the primary drive slot and applying the upgrade individually).

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OK. I just didn't realize the player software was on both drives. The guide *is* very well written. Perhaps I was just overthinking it.

Thanks all,

Jim

Greetings!

Everything looks good! First player checks out fine. Now to start work on the other two. Enjoy!

The metadata partition, the databases, and config.ini are on the first drive only.

My strategy for replacing my secondary drive was to build my new drive in the primary positon, then add my old drive as secondary (i.e. where it was originally), copy /drive1/* to /drive0, then remove both drives, and jumper the new drive as secondary, placing it with my original primary drive where it was originally.

Using two machines for this meant I didn't actually have to move my primary drive or reinstall the player and Hijack, but the principles should be obvious.

The metadata partition, the databases, and config.ini are on the first drive only.

But the databases don't matter -- they can be rebuilt completely from the *1 files.

The other stuff does, if there's anything interesting in there.

Roger, I think you were having trouble finding a 60GB that was slim enough for your VIAO notebook - these are a lot thinner than those. About the same thickness as the 10GB drives that come w. the RioCar.

i was wondering... if i were to port id3 tagging to the empeg and modify the files directly, can i delete the *1 fids and tell emplode/emptool to rescan the tags?

If you could port id3 tagging, many people would love that!

I've got a Toshiba 60GB (MK6021GAS) and it's much thinner than the equivalent IBM/Hitachi Travelstar.
It's a lower RPM than the Travelstar though. How thick are the new 80GB's?

- Trevor

Unfortunately, I think that scan comes in through emplode (or jemplode). It might be possible to port to the player, but it would be a bit tricky.

You are very right about the 80s being nice, thin (9.5mm high compared to the 12.5mm high 60s) and compact. They are perfect if the 60s were too tall. Very slim design, similar to the old 10GB drives. I am quite happy / impressed so far.

In reply to:

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...the databases don't matter -- they can be rebuilt...

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True, but it's quicker to copy than to rebuild them. Worked for me, anyway.

can i delete the *1 fids and tell emplode/emptool to rescan the tags?

No. emplode/emptool don't look at the ID3 tags once the files are on the player. They deal entirely with the *1 files (actually, they read from /empeg/var/database and write to the *1 files).

Moreover, if you delete the *1 file, this is equivalent to deleting the *0 file -- emplode/emptool will treat that FID as unused, and will overwrite it the next time that you upload some new music.

If you were to port ID3 tagging to the player, it would be of very little use, unless you planned to retrieve the files from the player -- since once the files are on the player, nothing uses the ID3 tags.

I guess if you were using Hijack to stream from the player, it would be quite useful, though.

Anyway, if you're going to port ID3 tagging to the player, just make your app update the *1 files (and rebuild the databases) while it's there.

these are a lot thinner than those

Cool. I was keeping my eye out for the 60Gb Toshiba, but nobody seems to have any in stock. Maybe I'll look for the 80Gb disks instead. There's probably a large price premium on them at the moment, though.

the new 80gb is 9.5mm which is the same size as the 40gb toshiba gas (which I have in another device). Not sure about the 60gb tosh.

Greetings!

I don't want to raise concerns, but has anyone else dealing with the 80s noticed that they run a bit warm? Taking the drives out and swapping them around, I notice that they are quite warm (I don't have any accurate way of getting a temperature estimate - warm / hot to the touch, where you can handle them, but don't want to hold them for too long without letting them cool down).

Keep in mind, I don't do this that often, and this might be normal. Also, the drives in question had been copying data non-stop for 15 hours or so, with the player sitting in a wooden docking station.

Okay... checking the specs, the 80s are slightly lower power and operating noise. It might just be that I am not used to it.

...the drives in question had been copying data non-stop for 15 hours or so,...

Your drives are warm from the constant copying, no doubt about it. I imagine with regular Empeg use they will be even cooler than the previous drives because they operate at lower power. (though I don't think it will be possible to feel the difference)

Good. I thought it shouldn't be a problem, but I just wanted to get a reality check.

Mmm.. if it worries you much, then the fan speed in your docks can be adjusted -- disconnect the power, pop off the bottom panel (4 screws), and look inside for a potentiometer (variable resistor) soldered to one of the pins on the power jack. Space is tight, so be careful not to mess anything up. The pot can be adjusted with a tiny slotted screwdriver inserted into the middle slot. A small twist goes a long way.

Cheers

Greetings!

Oh, it is not a problem during normal operation. The players have been through a lot of use recently - they are on their third and final batch of drives now. They have been copying files solidly for days now. I will keep that in mind, though. Good to know if I need to adjust in the future.

Edit: Cool! Promoted!

Yeah. The first two docks I built (#002 is in circulation, #001 is being saved to raffle off at a future Empeg meet) had fixed resistor values. After those, I switched to variable resistors to allow field adjustment for warmer environments. Here in the GWN is probably not the best place for calibrating the fans..

Cheers

Very cool Mark! That's great to know! Maybe you could add a note about this on your page incase anyone needs it in the future?

Don't listen to me, I'm a hoser.

Too much work for me, so, like, take off, eh!

The problem is with software and hardware engineers redefining the meaning of the SI prefixes (mega, giga, etc). The IEEE and IEC have tried to rectify the situation, but few have adoped their recomendations.

In essence, this standardization means that the hard drive manufacturers have got it right and the memory manufacturers haven't.

Funny thing is, IT professionals usually pride themselves on adapting to change. I doubt we will be able to walk into a PC World or Staples and ask for 1 Gibibyte of memory any time soon without some very blank looks from the staff.

I am just in awe that you guys actually have that much music.

I am just in awe that you guys actually have that much music.

ditto

Actually what amazes me is that when the Mk. 1 empeg came out, you could get it in 2GB, 4GB and 6GB capacities! IIRC

That may be one reason the empeg didn't sell more units. It was ahead of its time in more ways than one (and still is) but the HD manufacturers weren't caught up yet. I remember thinking that a 10GB model would only store a small fraction of my music, and only if I encoded at 128kps. But knowing how easy it was to add a HD was a major factor in me buying one.

Greetings!

Finished. It took all weekend, but I now have 37.3GB free on the player! I have room to expand again!!! Now, I just need to wait for Harry Potter 5 to come out...