Casting of fascia & clear buttons

Hi All,

My name is Mike, and I'm a professional sculptor/caster (though I prefer the label "toymaker"). My company is Casting Fool & Son, located in the sunny state of Georgia, USA.

I was recently approached by a forum member who expressed interest in CF&Son producing a limited number of fascia and clear/tinted buttons for use in applications similar to Brian's excellent conversion.

I've scanned through the threads related to the fascia/button issues, and there seems to be a great deal of excitement related to this topic.

To those having problems with bubbles, I recommend that you try visiting www.alumilite.com and read through their website and FAQ's. In short form, you need to set up a pressure chamber for the actual casting. (The resin can be vacuum cured, but the mold will need a large reservoir for the resin as it expands out of the mold and collapses back.)

Vacuuming the newly mixed resin will help to eliminate some of the bubbles, but unless you spin cast (more expensive than a pressure setup) or pressure cast the resin-filled molds, you will probably not eliminate all of the bubbles from your finished castings.

Keep in mind that you absolutely MUST vacuum the uncured RTV silicone used for the molds if you intend to pressure cast with the mold. Alternately, you can pressure cure the mold, but I've always found vacuuming the RTV much simpler and it keeps my pressure chamber free for casting. BTW, you need to get your vacuum down close to 29" Hg to really get the air out of the RTV.

Also, depending on your choice of resins, you may have to post heat cure clear castings for 5 to 16 hours depending on the type of resin. If you don't do this, the resin will never reach it's full hardness. Read through and completely follow the instructions that come with your choice of resins.

I have to research several issues before I can consider committing to this project: 1. The infamous copyright issues (my own policies on this are very strict), and 2. Will there be enough sales to justify the investment (normally a project of this type would involve $1000.00 -$2000.00 to set up.)

If there was enough of an interest and I were to commit to this project, I could be producing fascia and buttons by sometime near the end of June 2003. I would not be providing the electronics, only the fascia and buttons.

Color choice could possibly be left up to the buyer as I can reproduce a large variety of colors, but specific custom matches would insanely increase the price of the set.

For example, the solid (not clear) fascia could be colored to coordinate with the buttons, or (again, for more $) I can permanently metalize the resin fascia with a gold, silver, bronze, copper, or gunmetal finish.

I have this set up to forward any response to this post to my email, as time is tight and I won't be able to spend a lot of time coming back to check this thread.

Should anyone associated with the present owners of the copyrights on this system be listening in, please feel free to drop me a line and point me in the right direction for obtaining a limited license to reproduce the fascia/buttons. Thanks.

I was recently approached by a forum member who expressed interest in CF&Son producing a limited number of fascia and clear/tinted buttons

Ahem, that would be me. I contacted Mike after considering taking a try at casting the fascia and buttons myself. I read about Lopan's recent efforts and contacted him if he was cool with my giving it a go. I'm $200 in at this point and did a hand check. Realistically, even if I get a successful casting, I would have no time to cast them for anyone else due to my job. Personally, I'd like to give something back to the community and this seemed a reasonable way to do so.

Anyone else interested?

Mike, I'm mostly interested in replacement fascia but depending on the button finishes, I would be interested in those also. As far as counts go, I would probably do 2-3 sets if the colors could be mixed. Could each person get different colors without appreciably increasing the price?

I didn't understand your comments on color matches increasing price. Do you mean matching the original colors?

Thanks for the advice and help.

Since I would be casting most of the sets as separate orders, it might be possible to let each customer choose the colors that they want. Just to keep something in stock for spot orders, I'd probably cast a few sets of black fascias and plain clear buttons and set them aside.

A "color match" would be an order that included a sample of the _exact_ color that the customer wanted. The process of color matching resins is a bit of alchemy mixed with science, and takes up considerably more time and materials. Hence more $... actually, lots more $.

If I were to do this project I would cast fascia samples in, say, 8 or so colors and the 5 metalized finishes, offer clear buttons, and clear buttons tinted to coordinate with the fascia colors. It wouldn't be a problem to mix and match the colors, and except for the metalized finishes, it shouldn't change the pricing for a set.

I'm in the market for an upgrade for my network, and a digital camera is part of the package. Hopefully we'll have the catalog (PDF format) up before summer's end, and the pictures can speak their 1000 words. [grin]

well, I would definetly be interrested in the transparent buttons. I guess the fascia and buttons will be a replica of the original plastic ones?

Allthough, before I can say if I want the fascia or not I would really want to see some photos of the different castings.

Personally I think the biggest downside of the empeg is its fascia and buttons. They give the impression of a cheap second rated carstereo. Allthough its not the design but rather the plastic feel and looks of it. So if I would consider another plastic fascia I would really want to see some pictures before I deside.

Personally I think the biggest downside of the empeg is its fascia and buttons. They give the impression of a cheap second rated carstereo. Allthough its not the design but rather the plastic feel and looks of it.

And it's not even that it's plastic, but the look of that particular plastic. I mean, most (all?) car stereos have plastic fasciae and buttons, but they have a different appearance. The first things that come to mind are a slightly higher-gloss finish and a vague metallic look that seems to be produced by small metallic flakes in the plastic itself (as opposed to applied after the casting).

Do you (Mike, not Benito) have any way to reproduce those effects?

You can mark me down for 3 sets of knob/buttons! I would prefer a blue and green tint too...

-Chuck

Yep, Interested in "Translucent" Buttons, prefer Blue. (With no bubbles :-)
What do you mean by replacement Fascia? I guess that would only interest people with broken fascia's, or people who wanted a different color fascia, you might find a lot of interest if a really cool new design Fascia can be cast at a reasonable cost, and still match the original handle.
I remember Empeg had a few different prototypes, could some of those designs be reproduced.

I have been twitching at the thought of 303's brilliant newface but it is expensive.

Actually I have been sitting here checking this thread for a while expecting you to be swamped with interest, come on guy's this may be a chance to get some profesional quality translucent buttons for a reasonable cost.

Gazz.

Color me interested. "VFD teal" color or neon green preferred. Even if I can't do the lighting hack, it'd be great to have the buttons so if I decide to get someone to do it in the future, I'm ready to go.

I would be interested in a Red fascia and/or red buttons.

What a fantastic post, Casting_Fool. Thanks for all of the information, and for your offer to take on the project.

I have a question, it's been my pet topic in all of these discussions (you might have seen some of my posts on this topic already): What about making buttons which aren't "colored-clear" like Brian's, but which are instead translucent milky white or milky gray, and therefore will diffuse the light better and light up evenly across the surface of the button? I know that Brian experimented with this and didn't have much success. Have you done this sort of thing?

I have a few reasons for wanting this:

1. The original buttons for the player were a shade of medium gray. I think it would be nifty to have buttons which looked similar to the original factory buttons in that respect, yet also glowed when power was applied.

2. I've seen plastic materials used for other types of buttons which allowed for a very "even" light diffusion. For instance, the backlit buttons on a TV remote control (although I realize that's some kind of a silicone rubber rather than a plastic). In these cases, a single LED was enough to light up the entire face of the unit. I'm wondering if the installation of the backlit button hack could be made easier if we didn't have to install as many LEDs.

3. If the buttons were a neutral color (and since we're using white LEDs), then you could change the color of the buttons by putting color over the LEDs instead of needing a whole new button set.

Put me down for a set of buttons , Smoked would be cool.

C.

I have been twitching at the thought of 303's brilliant newface but it is expensive.

Actually I thought 303's prices were quite reasonable for what you get. I would be surprised if the cast facias are much cheaper.

... translucent milky white or milky gray...

I'll look into that. I've done some clear castings that were heavily tinted and could cause the same effect.

... Red fascia and/or red buttons...
... "Translucent" Buttons, prefer Blue. (With no bubbles...
... green tint too...

I could do about 8-9 of the usual "crayon box" colors for a start, and then the 5 metalized ones. All of the regular colors can be lightened or darkened into other shades. For example, red could be adjusted from "pink" all the way into "blood red".

... Smoked would be cool...

Harder to do, the black tends to wash into a purplish sort of cool tint. What color smoke, wood fire white or petroleum-laced choker?

... What do you mean by replacement Fascia?

The plate with the oval holes in it, the same one that everyone seems to be using. Large knob on the right, the tear drop-shaped buttons on the left.

... the fascia and buttons will be a replica of the original plastic ones?

Yes, but in the colors indicated above and in my other messages. I suppose that I could do some buttons in the same opaque resin as the fascia plate for folk who do not intend to light them up.

... if the cast facias are much cheaper [than the 303 Newface's]...

Actually, the Newface lines are the property of the folk who are producing them. I would not cast copies of their work. Those are the aluminum ones, right?

I should have an original plate and set of buttons in a few days. I'll know more about feasibility and cost after I look them over.

It's also important that I talk with someone who holds the license to the design. Any takers out there? I don't want to steal your lightning, Dudes. Speak up!

It's also important that I talk with someone who holds the license to the design. Any takers out there? I don't want to steal your lightning, Dudes. Speak up!

That would be SONICblue, and by next week will be Denon & Marantz. If you want an official license to copy the design then I don't think you're going to get it. That particular IP has changed hands so many times that nobody would have a clue who is responsible for it. I do know that the original tool is rusting somewhere in Sussex and will never be used again.

It seems you don't need the original CAD and I'm not aware you need permission to copy a physical object which is neither patented nor trademarked. Just don't try to pass it off as Rio. Of course i'm not a lawyer, and our lawyers have bigger things on their minds right now.

Rob

Mike,

Smoke is similar to car window tint. Charcoal as opposed to whitish. See Smoke Buttons . Although whitish smoke describes what Tony is after I think.

Tim's NewFace is the CNC aluminum one.

I can't believe this thread has not lit up the board completely like the ones for the docking stations or the tuners! I will personally be in for three sets minimum.

This is some of the best news I have read here in weeks!

I would also be interested in at least 3 sets of buttons, and maybe a couple of faces, depending on the final look, and colors that you start selling.

Damn I wish I had some money! I'd get Darkstorm's neon facia and a few sets of these as well! Unfortunately I cant commit to this at the moment but it's great that professionals willing to take it on.

Put me down for 2 sets of butons + knob. translucent milky gray if available.

Thanks

If you think that looks good, have a look at this!



How sexy is that!

Greetings.

I am interested also, but I want to give everyone else a chance first. But, if you are looking for "critical mass", I would be interested in at least 1 of each color, and a few extras thrown in.

Would snap up a set of translucent buttons in a second - and more than one set if there were various colour choices!

Would also be very interested in a fascia, depending on cost and how it looked

How about a plastic fascia similar to Marcus' design?

mdavey replied: site:
> How about a plastic fascia similar to Marcus' design?

I don't have a way of having the CAD files CAM'ed into a physical master, and having that done is beyond the $ limit that I've set on the development costs for the project.

But, looking at Marcus' graphics, I just realized that what I thought was the bottom edge of the fascia is actually the unit's handle. A few questions:

1. What color is the handle?
2. What material is it made of?
3. Would the handle being included with the fascia and buttons be expected by purchasers?

Thanks for the answers!

rob replied:
> That would be SONICblue, and by next week will be Denon & Marantz...

Thanks, Rob. I read through your page on the development of the new fascia, and then read through what I could find on the purchase of Rio and it's intellectual property until I ended up at D&M's site (http://www.dm-holdings.com).

It looks as if I could produce the fascia and buttons as long as I'm careful to not associate it with the player or with D&M itself. I was going to add a generic radio reproduction line to our product lines anyway and leave it open for a number of device types.

I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

> It seems you don't need the original CAD...

My own ThermoJet 3D printer is somewhere down the line acquisition-wise, so I'm not using CAD/CAM at present.

>... and I'm not aware you need permission to copy a physical object which
is neither patented nor trademarked. Just don't try to pass it off as Rio.
Of course i'm not a lawyer, and our lawyers have bigger things on their
minds right now.

Actually, you produced the units and the new fascia/buttons in the UK. Was a US copyright or patent applied for? I hadn't thought of that angle on the issue. I'll have to look into it.

I hope that you and the other Rob made out okay with the transition of the company.

Thanks again for the help.

The handle is coated aluminum. I can forward my handle but it is chromed and may be a little thicker than original. It would need to be fairly strong (embedded metal in resin, maybe?) because it is used to pull the player from the car sled. Neither the NewFace or previous efforts at a replacment fascia provided a handle. If we could figure out a way to cast the handle also, it would be great. Handles that match the colored fascia would have a pretty high drool factor.

1. What color is the handle?

Black. And on my Mk2 unit, when the sun hits it just right, it's a slightly different shade of black than the fascia.

2. What material is it made of?

Cast aluminum, painted black after casting. Hence the slight difference in color with the fascia.

3. Would the handle being included with the fascia and buttons be expected by purchasers?

No. The handle is known to be a separate part. Currently, there is no one offering alternate handle replacements, although I'd love to see 303 offer handles which match his new fascia.

Which really, to think about it, brings up a question: If you're wanting to make a fascia that's an exact replacement of the factory fascia, what's your target market? The only people who'd want that are those who have broken their original fascia or want to experiment with a dremel tool for some reason. I don't know if there would be many of those people. It might be more fun to come up with an alternate, like 303 has. You'd sell more of them that way.

The only trick is making it work with the existing handle. If you can't cast aluminum, a plastic handle probably would NOT work.

I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

I would have skipped that step. We've got lots of people here on the BBS making alternate add-on stuff for the player such as the buttons and such, and it's never been an issue before. I'd "just do it" instead of worrying about what Denon thinks. It's such a small run, it isn't something where they'd be concerned about violating IP. Remember, there's only 4000 or so units in circulation, and only a tiny fraction of those owners would be in the market for purchasing your cast parts.

Mach replied:
> The handle is coated aluminum. I can forward my handle but it is chromed and may be a little thicker than original...

Thanks, Mach, but maybe someone has an original unmodified handle... well, handy? I'd have to examine it in order to determine if a resin handle would hold up to removing the unit and carrying the weight of the unit during transport. The other consideration would be whether the screws that hold the handle to the hinges would be sufficient to do the job. (The resins that I use can be drilled and tapped.)

I'd rather not be saddled with replacing someone's drop-damaged unit!

tfabris replied:

> Currently, there is no one offering alternate handle replacements...

That's something to keep in mind. Thanks.

> ... what's your target market?

Folks who want to replace the standard factory fascia with one that looks different/cool/coordinates/wows/etc. and that easily replaces the factory one. A plus is that it it'll work with the LED conversion.

> It might be more fun to come up with an alternate, like 303 has. You'd sell more of them that way.

The investment to create an original design is way beyond what I want to invest at this time. Toymaking (sculpting/casting) is my primary occupation, and every hour that I invest into a project runs me $35.00 per. Something like producing an original fascia design could easily run into 100 to 300 hours of design/fabrication/development.

> ... a plastic handle probably would NOT work.

I'd have to see the original handle before I could determine this either way. The resins that I use are also used for making rock climbing "handles" (?), those things that bolt into the "rock face" at climbing gyms. I also use them to cast reproduction lenses for antique vehicles, as well as for custom lenses for other vehicles.

I once tested the durability of a 3" resin lens that I'd cast, with my reconditioned antique Crossman Arms "M1 Carbine" BB rifle. With an ambient outdoor temp of 81.8 degrees F, at 10', 6', and 3', the BB's left almost no discernible mark on the lens.

It wasn't until I brought the rifle to bear at 12" (inches), that I was able to crack the edge of the lens. Even so, the lens is intact. There's a small, 0.5" x 0.25" "T"-shaped star, but it's all internal to the lens and the lens is still completely functional.

It's tough stuff.

>
> I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

> I would have skipped that [inquiry to Denon ]...

I can't. As a professional, and because of my personal beliefs, I have to observe the copyright laws. Businesses like mine can be put out of business rather quickly when bootleggers steal our intellectual property and sell copies of it. Which gives me that much more encouragement to be fair and legal when I manufacture products.

I'll post their answer here (if there is one).

> Remember, there's only 4000 or so units in circulation..

Wondered about that, but that's the sort of market that companies like mine seek out. Limited runs (usually less than 1000) of a unique design (got to get some fun in there somewhere), that can be relatively cost effective to produce (a decent margin is always good).

Mike, I'll order at least two sets of the translucent knobs and buttons. I had held back expressing my excitement toward Stu's 4-LED knob board, because I feared that without a source for translucent knobs I would buy it only to have it sit in my spare parts bin. His last post on the boards indicated that he has ordered 100, which will surely go quickly if you end up sourcing the knob and buttons to complete the mod. Thank you for your interest in this project.
...Mark

Same goes for me so count me in for a set or three. Though I didn't hesitate in putting my two cents in for a board and parts. I'm really looking forward to this (and waiting for my Darkstorm lense as well, waiting patiently that is ) as I've finally gotten back to using my Empeg full time again in a new vehicle

Must_Have_New_Knobs_And_Buttons

but maybe someone has an original unmodified handle... well, handy?

Ba-DUM. "Thank you, I'm here all week."

(The resins that I use can be drilled and tapped.)

Cool. You'd probably use a different kind of screw than the factory handle, then. The factory screws have a very short shaft and a very fine thread, obviously made for metal. But if you supplied the correct screw, I could see that working quite well. Your description of the strength of the resins is promising. The player isn't that heavy. When I was thinking that it wouldn't work in plastic, I was thinking more along the lines of styrene, not a really strong resin.

Folks who want to replace the standard factory fascia with one that looks different/cool/coordinates/wows/etc. and that easily replaces the factory one.

Ah, cool. I hadn't realized at first you were going for alternate colors for your replacement fascia. Just solid colors? What about swirled colors or patterns, or faux stone/wood? Like they do on cell phone fascia replacements? Were you going to do colored translucent fascias so we could have an imac-style empeg that was backlit? Ooooo....:)

I'll post their answer here (if there is one).

I'm guessing their answer will be something like "a faceplate for WHAT?... Wait a minute, we bought WHO?... How long ago?... Ah. Well, you'd probably have to talk to that Rob guy in Cambridge, he was in charge of that project..."

Wondered about that, but that's the sort of market that companies like mine seek out.

COOL. Then you're the guy we want doing this stuff. I can't wait to order some more buttons.

Oh, and about the buttons, you have to realize that some owners have a "keyed" D-shaped knob shaft, and others have a round shaft where the button is held on by friction. The friction version is a bit of a PITA, because if the knob isn't exactly the right size, it won't grip, or it'll grip too tightly for them to pull it off when they want to change or remove the fascia.

The factory solution to the gripping problem was to redesign the knob gripper a bit, and then supply a rubber O-ring at precisely the right size so that it created a tiny bit of extra friction. It sounds like a bit of a hack job, but in the end it works really well.

Anyway, my point is that if you cast knobs, you'll need to cast two different versions. Brian simply shipped both versions of the knob to every customer, as well as shipping one of the correct-size rubber O rings, just to make sure that all bases were covered.

I had held back expressing my excitement toward Stu's 4-LED knob board, because I feared that without a source for translucent knobs I would buy it only to have it sit in my spare parts bin.

You're aware that you can just drill holes in the factory knob and buttons, and have a ring of pinpoint lights on the knob and central pinpoint lights on the buttons, right? That is a good temporary solution until you can get translucent buttons.

Support has been contacted regarding the different knobs. I believe they're going to provide spares.

Tony -
I'm aware that the knob can be drilled, but don't want to "destroy" my original knob. From what I've seen, the translucent knobs look much better, which is why I would be doing the mod in the first place. ...Mark

It's got nothing to do with Denon. D&M own DNNA who own Rio who own the IP. D&M also own Denon but they're going to be very confused by this.

The person who can raise this officially for you is me. I said I didn't want to raise it officially, and suggested you may not really need to do so. Since you clearly do want to do so I'd suggest you're out of luck as our company changed hands today and nobody is going to want to spend time thinking about a long discontinued product right now.

Rob

From: <[email protected]>
> It's got nothing to do with Denon. D&M own DNNA who own Rio who own the IP. D&M also own Denon but they're going to be very confused by this.

It was my mistake then. I assumed that when D&M Holdings was formed to merge the operations of Denon and Marantz, it meant that Denon was somehow involved and that a message to them would eventually find its way to someone that would be able to provide some answers. Rather stupid, actually.

I should have tried to contact someone at the D&M Holdings US's new subsidiary, Digital Networks North America (DNNA), but I'm assuming that they're so new that it'll be ages before I'd get any sort of response.

On the IP rights thing, I was going with what Tatsuo Kabumoto, CEO and president of D&M Holdings was quoted as saying, "We will leverage the intellectual property and the excellent engineering talent from the ReplayTV and Rio businesses across our D&M brands while positioning these businesses to be more profitable."

Sort of sounded like the IP rights were their's. I'll have to look into this a bit more, but as DNNA is still climbing out of it's box, it'll be some time before I could get any sort of answer.

In any case, I screwed up. Really sorry.

> The person who can raise this officially for you is me. I said I didn't want to raise it officially, and suggested you may not really need to do so. Since you clearly do want to do so I'd suggest you're out of luck as our company changed hands today and nobody is going to want to spend time thinking about a long discontinued product right now.

Rob, maybe I'm misreading your post, but if I offended you in any manner, I apologize.

I know that it sounds assinnine to go as far as I do in these things, but I have good reason. In the casting field we've seen some stalwart, well-established companies close their doors because of copyright infringement. I simply wanted to do what I believe is the right thing.

And much thanks for your help. :O)
-------

> tfabris replied:
> ... well, handy? Ba-DUM. "Thank you, I'm here all week."

Yeah, I couldn't resist that one.

> Ah, cool... What about swirled colors or patterns, or faux stone/wood?

Maybe.

> Were you going to do colored translucent fascias...

Yes, actually. I wasn't sure how well it would be received, but it might look cool with matching/contrasting buttons.

> Oh, and about the buttons... some... have a "keyed" D-shaped knob shaft, and others have a round shaft...

No, I didn't know that. All of the buttons, or just the big one? Only one button had that problem?

Thanks. :O)

Only one button had that problem?

Just the big one. It's a knob+button. The others don't really have a shaft of any nature; they just are formed properly to sit between the fascia and the switches they activate.

Rob, maybe I'm misreading your post, but if I offended you in any manner, I apologize.

I don't think Rob was offended. I think he was trying to say something along the lines of:

"I commissioned the original design when it was made, and it's fine with me if you cast a few fascias and button sets based on it. In fact, I encourage you to go ahead and do it. I can't really say that officially, though, because we got bought and we don't technically own the IP any more. But it's a long-discontinued product which was short-run to begin with, and I'm sure our new company owners couldn't care less about you copping the design of some old bits of plastic. In fact, the only ones in the new company who would even know anything about the old bits of plastic are sitting right here next to me as I speak, so any emails you send to the parent company will probably just fall on deaf ears anyway. If you really want to go through official channels, you'd likely have to go through me anyway, and right now I'm not prepared to be that conduit, we've got other more pressing things to attend to."

Your response was essentially:

"Okay, but I have to do this all above board because I don't want to risk doing something I could get in trouble for down the road. I have to be sure, because my livelihood depends on it."

... which is very admirable and understandable. I don't think Rob is offended by that, he's just shrugging his shoulders and essentially saying, "Whatever, OK, suit yourself."

Of course, it's late, and I'm tired, and I could be misinterpreting all of the above. I shouldn't post at late hours like this...

So I think at this point, the only thing you can do from your point of view is see what responses you get from your emails (if any) and proceed as you see fit. I realize this is a legal gray area for you, and that's the very thing you want to avoid. But so far you're our best hope for getting a plentiful selection of aftermarket plastic parts for our beloved toy, and I know that none of us want to see you get scared off of the project.

Rewinding a bit to clarify a technical point I noticed earlier in the thread...

I could do about 8-9 of the usual "crayon box" colors for a start, and then the 5 metalized ones. All of the regular colors can be lightened or darkened into other shades. For example, red could be adjusted from "pink" all the way into "blood red".

When dealing with the colors of the buttons, there's an interesting issue to deal with. Unlike the "Holy backlit buttons, Batman" image posted earlier in the thread, most people will be buying buttons to match their player's lens color, which in turn was chosen to match their car's dash as best as possible.

This would be neat if you could just copy the lens color as a basis for the tint of the button plastic. But you can't, because...

The lenses go over the VFD display which glows a shade of approximately cyan. The buttons go over pure-white LEDs. If customers wanted the glow of the buttons to exactly match the glow of the text on the screen, some trial and error would be needed to determine the exact color shades of plastic to make the buttons appear to be the same color as the screen. Brian did some experiments in this area with moderate success, by (for example) tinting the blue buttons ever so slightly greenish to match the blue lens over the cyan VFD.

Casting_Fool:

I think the key piece of information that you seem to be missing, is that rob is the founding President of Empeg, and continues today as the head dude for that development group, whether the label be Empeg / Rio / SonicBlue / D&M.

He really is the only guy you need to contact about this stuff.

BBS posters who's names display in the colour blue are part of the development team, or were, at some point in time.

-ml

rob is the founding President of Empeg

Actually, wouldn't that be Hugo (altman)? No offense, Rob. In any case, you are hearing directly from the team that designed, built and marketed the original empeg, and were then bought later.

Yeah I was the founding tea boy of empeg. I've worked my way up to the top - tea boy for D&M.

Rob

tfabris replied:
> So I think at this point, the only thing you can do from your point of view is see what responses you get from your emails (if any) and proceed as you see fit. I realize this is a legal gray area for you, and that's the very thing you want to avoid. But so far you're our best hope for getting a plentiful selection of aftermarket plastic parts for our beloved toy, and I know that none of us want to see you get scared off of the project.

I've done this same thing with other IP, and the responses that you get can vary from "Heck, that's okay with me, Dude, go for it." (no restrictions), to "Well, sure, as long as you don't..." (some restrictions), to "You can have it when it falls from my lawyer's cold dead fingers." (no license, ever). And God's grace, so far none of the licenses that I've been given have involved license fees.

In order to avoid the lawyers of one giant of the miniatures gaming industry, which shall remain incognito, I developed a correspondence with their IP people in order to avoid being introduced to their fabulously wealthy lawyers over some of my own original miniatures gaming products that tread close to their IP designs.

My chief concern in this particular instance is the Japanese connection. Here in the States the line of ownership goes to whichever company is at the top, unless the IP wasn't part of the deal when the purchased company was sold to the buyer.

I'm afraid that I really couldn't tell from the material that I read on the 'Net how these issues stood with the fascia and button design. Rob may very well be the one who holds the cookie jar on this, but I'm stuck with making certain I'm in the clear.

I started CF&Son after I discovered that my doodlings with casting attracted money (not a bad thing in it's own way), but got an early jump start on going full time with it when I was downsized at my retail hobby industry job.

We're a small specialty company and have to tread carefully so as to avoid getting stepped on by the big-footed lawyers of angry IP owners (ref. "A Simple Wish" starring Martin Short, the scene with the 50' rabbi terrorizing Nevada).

Practically speaking, in relation to this particular project, there doesn't seem to be a problem with my producing a few trial castings to see how they turn out and to present to y'all (this Philly boy's been in the South for too long) for inspection.

I'm fairly certain that Rob's correct in saying that there's no problem with my producing the units; especially with the limited market, discontinuation of the line, and other factors.

I'm just trying to make sure that I'm hunting on the "King's land" with permission, hoping to avoid a confrontation with the Sheriff of Snottingham. Outlawing is exciting and profitable (and wrong in this case), but it's a pain to be beheaded. It can place a real damper on your weekends. :O)
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tfabris replied:
> ... most people will be buying buttons to match their player's lens color...
> ... to exactly match the glow of the text on the screen, some trial and error would be needed to determine the exact color shades of plastic to make the buttons appear to be the same color as the screen. Brian did some experiments in this area with moderate success, by (for example) tinting the blue buttons ever so slightly greenish to match the blue lens over the cyan VFD.

Ack. I knew that not owning one of these babies could be a problem.

Well, I could buy a set of the lenses, find a light source as similar to the player's as possible, and then tint the buttons to match the resulting output; or I could just set a new standard...

Got to think about that one. Thanks for the head's up.
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mlord replied:
> [Rob] really is the only guy you need to contact about this stuff.

Sure is looking that way.

> BBS posters who's names display in the colour blue are part of the development team, or were, at some point in time.

Ah! Didn't know that. So who are the red and green ones? (And why is mine yellow?)
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Just heard that buttons, knob, handle, handle mounting brackets, and fascia are on their way and should be here sometime next week...

So who are the red and green ones? (And why is mine yellow?)

Yellow names are from people with a post count of 1000 posts or less.
Green names are from people with a 1000+ post count
Red names are from people who have administrator rights on this forum.
Blue names are from people who either work (or have worked) for Empeg or are involved with them directly in some way.

Ack. I knew that not owning one of these babies could be a problem.

Yes. You really should try and own one.

FWIW, I'd be interested in both buttons and fascia/handle, but at this time, can't commit. If you go ahead and produce the cast, do you do a limited run, end of story? Or is it limited run + one offs in the future?

Yes. You really should try and own one.

Or perhaps a kind soul who owns a Mk2a spare could loan it to him as an encouragement to work on this project. I'd loan him my player, but it's my only one and I can't live without it.

I was just thinking that not owning one of these is a problem in and of itself.

I've been dying to install illuminated buttons on my empeg for a very long time now. You've just sparked new hope for me! I'd definately be interested in ordering atleast one set of buttons, and more depending on pricing.

However, I'd like to bring your attention to an idea I've had for a long time and one that's been echoed on this BBS a few times - translucent cutouts in non-translucent buttons. Please see this thread and this thread for more details.

Would it be possible to mould buttons to that design? I think they'd look *alot* better than entirely translucent buttons mostly from a diffusion point of view. The idea could maybe be carried across to the knob too.

Greetings.

I will take that cue.

Mike, if you are interested in having a full unit to examine, test, measure, whatever, send me a private message with all your details. We can work something out.

Heh, heh - perhaps, after trying the unit, you will become so hooked and obsessed, you will a) not want to return it and b) understand the sheer frenzy you have started.

Well alright then! This might actually come together. Thanks Paul.

Aragon replied:

> ... translucent cutouts in non-translucent buttons...

It can be done, but it will _greatly_ increase the cost of the buttons. It will double the tooling cost and possibly triple the casting cost. I wouldn't feel comfortable with this sort of project because of the increased selling price and the probability that I would not recover my investment.

It would be easier and slightly less costly to re-master the buttons with a slightly raised surface on the top, then paint the rest of the button up to the edge of this raised surface; but then again, we're looking at a niche market with a limited return.

I'll know more after I see the buttons themselves this week.
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canuckInLA replied:
> ... do you do a limited run, end of story? Or is it limited run + one offs in the future?

Most of the casting that I do of this specific type is a limited run with one-offs as needed.

For this project, after I cast some display samples, it will be whatever is ordered as needed. I've had at least one commercial inquiry that would require a small limited run, but everything else has been from individuals wanting one to three sets of buttons.

The requests for fascia will probably increase slightly after I produce some samples of what will be available.
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Archeon replied:
> Yellow... Green... Red... Blue names...

Thank you.
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pgrzelak replied:
> Mike, if you are interested in having a full unit to examine, test, measure, whatever, send me a private message with all your details. We can work something out.

I'll contact you.

> Heh, heh - perhaps, after trying the unit, you will become so hooked and obsessed, you will a) not want to return it and b) understand the sheer frenzy you have started.

I'm a gadget freak, but with my budget as tight as it is at present, I'll have to steel my resolution to not become hooked... I hope...

I'm a gadget freak, but with my budget as tight as it is at present, I'll have to steal my resolution to not become hooked

You've got no chance mate, go on, give in, YOU KNOW you want to

Yeah, Paul you may have to include an AC adapter so he really can play with it. Having an empeg that won't boot is no fun.

Or much use if the goal of sending it is to help him get an idea of the colour of light coming from the VFD.

Greetings!

I know... Trust me...

We have exchanged emails. Just waiting for confirmation and a shipping address.

It looks like the project is a go. :O)

The fascia, handle and buttons that "Mach" sent are not extremely difficult casts. I'll know more about how well the resin holds up as a handle after I've cast a few and tested them. Much thanks also to Paul for his generous offer of a loaner.

Given my current projects, it'll be about mid-May before I'll have more time to sit down with it and make the preliminary molds. I'll keep things updated here as they progress.

If someone needs a quick answer to any questions, please email me direct. Otherwise, I'll check back here occasionally as time permits. Replying to one of my posts here will forward your post to me, too.

Woohoo!!!

Greetings!

Yup. I hope to get a test player with illuminated hack installed and a complete set of lenses and buttons later this week.

Has someone contacted 303 to ask permission to reproduce his fascia in plastic? This would have numerous benefits. First would be the removal of any possibility of copyright infringement associated with the original fascia. More importantly, it's greater incentive to actually buy one of these new fascias.

I'm not overly excited about a solid colour replica of the original design. Sure, a metalic finish would be nice, but it'd still be a replica of the original which is part of what gives the unit a cheap feeling fr some people.

However a new design would interest me greatly. I'd be willing to sacrifice one of my fascias in order to make a new source for casting. ie. I would take that fascia, modify it to improve the original design (epoxy additions, drilling, sanding, carving, whatever determind to be necessary) and then supply it for mold making. Of course having an additional spare fascia would be better (I only have one original fascia for each of my two empegs).

I have a lot of stuff on my plate already both with daytime job and other side projects (plus taking a warranty company to court and trying to buy a house) but I'd be willing to spend some time on this.

Bruno

Any updates on this lately?

Bruno

Yes...I'm curious to see how things have progressed on this as well.

An update...

We're still catching things up work & money-wise from the 6 weeks that I lost when ill in February/March. I haven't had time to formally start on the fascia project, but hope to be able to do so this month. Dang bills kept getting in the way... :OP

We're currently listening to Paul's customized Rio, something about a lion, a witch and a closet...

This is the first that I've had the time to set up the Rio in the house and listen to it. Simply amazing sound quality, and an unbelievable quantity of MP3's! I wouldn't think that so many files would fit into the player, though I've forgotten what Paul upgraded the drives to.

I hadn't realized (though I guess that I should have) that one can add recorded/dramatized books to the unit. I suppose that this could be extended to inspirational tapes, etc.. Pretty neat stuff.

We're almost caught up on all of the jobs that were affected by the loss of time, and we're finally getting started on some new jobs, including the Rio fascia/buttons.

I'll update again about mid-June.

Greetings!

The one you are playing with is a 160GB unit - dual 80GB hard drives. It has about 1,500 CDs on it. You can see the complete list here. There is also a copy in the /drive0/install directory.

If you have any questions about the player, how it works, etc., feel free to drop a note on the board, or send me an email.

Sorry to hear about the illness.

Questions, comments, let me know. Also, now that you have an illuminated unit in front of you, you can probably see for yourself about the button castings, the illimination hack and how people were trying to get a more evenly dispersed lighting of the buttons / knob...

You can see the complete list here.

Youve got PDQ Bach mp3's!!
Brilliant!!

I always was a fan of the left-handed sewer flute.

In reply to:

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We're currently listening to Paul's customized Rio, something about a lion, a witch and a closet...

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That's a lion, a witch, and a wardrobe, is it not? Are those audio books or something? I haven't read those since fourth grade. Good books though.

Stu

You can see the complete list here.


Nice collection, but I was suprised to see all the ELP yet no Triumvirat.

Yes, wardrobe. I was goofing off, actually. I read the Narnia books and the LotR books through at least once a year (and I've read the first 4 Harry Potter books through 7 times, starting #8 to coincide with the next book's release. I sponsor a kid's Harry Potter/Redemption league at a local hobby shop, and it helps to be knowledgeable about the topic).

Focus on the Family's Radio Theater, and the BBC, both have independent audio versions of the books available. I'm not sure about the BBC versions, but the FotF Radio Theater ones are available through mail order and some religious book stores.

Greetings!

Let's see...

If I remember correctly, the Chronicals of Narnia on the player is the BBC Radio dramatization that I picked up on amazon.co.uk. They did not have a US version at the time.

I also have a Lord of the Rings set on there, along with an interesting bit of tLotR that Tolkien & his son read directly. The telling "Of Beren and Luthien" read by his son Chris is exceptional.

There are also both the US and UK versions of the 4 Harry Potter books. Book 5 will be added late June for the US version, September for the UK version (it is being released mid-September...).

I have some stray books too. All of the Douglas Adam's HHGTTG and the Dirk Gentlys. Some Ray Bradbury. Twilight Zone radio dramatizations. And a bunch of old Radio Shows (Mysteries, Science Fiction, Suspense, etc.). Those are classic...

Sorry. I have a lot of ELP and other prog, but I am not familiar with Triumvirat.

I know this is totally off topic, but do you listen to "Chronicles" in the order you have them on your player? It's interesting because he wrote them in a different order and they've only recently (or perhaps not so recently, but I have an older collection in the origional order) been put into chronological order. I actually thought they were interesting to read in chronological order, but there's something about mucking with an author's original work that makes me uncomfortable.

I also must say I'm surprised how people here have read those books. I never realized how popular they are. I suppose that's why they're going to make a new movie of them soon.

Greetings!

The set that I have presents them in chronological order (Magician's Nephew first - MN, LWW, H&HB, PC, VotDT, SC, LB), and has introductory bits that seem a bit strange out of place. I typically read them in the "conventional" order (LWW, PC, VotDT, SC, MN, H&HB, LB).

As for the movies, I did not know they were remaking it. I know that there are a rather interesting set that is out on DVD. Granted, by today's standards, the production is, uh, low budget. Think Dr. Who meets C.S.Lewis, and you are on the right track. In fact, Tom Baker plays Puddleglum in the SC...

As for the movies, I did not know they were remaking it.

Yup. Co-Director of Shrek is directing it seems, and they're planning on doing all seven books. I'd guess they're going to do them in the origional order since they're starting with LWW.

Something worth thinking about. There may be a market for you just making handles, especially if the metallised ones can match 303s colors. One hesitation for me in buying a 303 fascia is the lack of a matching handle.

Also, are metalised buttons a possiblity?

Yeah, several studios have been asked to do animation tests before the project awards, and I've been assigned to be part of the team working on the test at our studio. I'm hoping that we get the job -- I think it would be a really cool project to work on. Sure beats working on Scooby Doo, IMHO.

You worked on Scooby Doo? Neat!

Sure was a bad movie, though.

The character modeling and animation was somewhat sub-par, IMO. But it was low budget to begin with.

Bruno

I got in at the tail end of Scooby Doo, and only worked on it for all of about 5 days. I just hate the character. Couldn't stand the cartoon, either. When we got the nod for Scooby Doo 2, I discarded all dignity, and pleaded with my boss not to put me on it. I spent some time on Stuart Little 2, and MIB2, before getting stuck on Daredevil (which was a nightmare, but it's far more tolerable working on something I'm ambivalent about than working on something I hate).

Fellow animator? What exactly do you do?

My background is math/CS, but I did some animation as an intern back in '97 -- nearly all broadcast design type of animation (in Houdini). I dabbled in FX a bit after that (one short freelance gig, also in Houdini, a piece played on the Madison Square Gardens jumbotron, during Rangers home games). I'm currently a pipeline setup TD (as explained in this thread) at R&H.

Couldn't stand the cartoon, either.

Heretic!

Wanna do character TD? LucasArts is desperate for a good one!

If they need a good one, then it's not me. I've never done character stuff. LucasArts isn't the only one looking... the whole vfx industry is looking for good people.

The empeg project is still in the works, but it's going to be delayed somewhat until I can reorder materials and set the molds up.

We ran into a cash flow crisis in June that forced me to reschedule all of our current projects. All of the projects are still in the pipeline, but I'm having to spread them out a tad to make better use of our available resources.

Everything dollar-wise is in the business, and unfortunately I compounded the problem by not doing things like charging a nominal fee for sample molds/castings sent out to prospective clients, and by having a large number of other projects set up without a group purchase that would cover my expenses on the set up before I started in on the projects. Newbie goofs, but critical.

What happened was simply my running out of resources to keep my family afloat. Somehow _everything_ came due in June! It's almost ridiculous, if it wasn't so astounding. It looks like things will be okay, but I've been informing clients that things were going to be slow for a while until things get back to normal here. (I'd already contacted Paul with a detailed letter outlining what was up.)

I'll post back here with an update, probably sometime in the next 5-10 days. I've got to get things running smoothly, especially for the family, and it'll take at least that long.

Thanks for your patience, but really sorry for the wait.

Sorry to hear about the difficulties! I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say: No worries; take care of what's important (family and livelihood). We'll still be here when things settle down for you.

[Cross-posted from Mach's "Solar Powered Buttons" thread.]

Things hit a bit of a wall here when I got ill for a few months (chlorine gas poisoning, lots of fun), but we're slowly bringing the shop back up to speed. I'm a one-man operation, so when I did the "gas thing" all of our projects fell behind. Which affected our income, etc..

I've got a few days of intense work this weekend and we should be back on schedule with the projects that ended up on hold, like the fascia/buttons. Pending some client's payments that are in the mail, I'll have the materials to pour the first molds end of next week.

I like the smoked idea, and will be trying a few different fillers to test their effect on the clarity of the buttons.

I probably won't be doing any soft-surfaced/hard-center buttons, but for the record, some soft urethane resins will bond permanently to a compatible hard urethane resin. I've done some experiments involving scale WW II tank road wheels that turned out rather well.

My sincere apologies for the long wait. Had to catch my breath... ;O)

(BTW, our website is temporarily unavailable. It'll be back up soon.)

Everything dollar-wise is in the business, and unfortunately I compounded the problem by not doing things like charging a nominal fee for sample molds/castings

I definitely don't want to throw a damper on this. And I might conceivably be a potential customer. However, I want to make sure that you get the full scoop on the economics of this. Earlier you mentioned that it would be a few thousand dollars to get everything set up. I'm not sure what the total market size is for this, but I can't imagine that you would sell more than 100 or 200 sets at the very very most. If necessary, someone here might be able to set up a website for people to log their orders if you provide an estimated price. I'm as excited about these buttons as anyone, but I don't want you to sink further into the money-pit by laying out several thousand dollars if you are only going to sell 27 sets!

I figure he's good for 150 - 200 sets, depending on the price. At, say, US$20/set, that's a couple bills plus profit.. should be fine.

Cheers

[One of these days I'm going to have to figure out how to blockquote these replies!]

"I definitely don't want to throw a damper on this...

You're not. :O)

It's all in how you look at it. Being a small specialty company, we don't have the income that a larger company has to invest in projects; i.e. net profit from a large inventory base of products.

So I have to look at things from the viewpoint of how many hours of work that I'm actually going to be putting into a project. Unlike other employed folk, I don't always get paid for my labor. It's true that a client who commissions a job will be paying for every hour put into their project.

But when it's a project that I initiate on my own, like the fascia/buttons, I will never get back the labor that I put into the job. It's one of those "circle of life" things. For example, I do models of historical forts. The first one took over 200 hours of research and development. At $35.00 per hour, I _know_ that I'll never see that labor again.

But (again!) I will see sales from that job that will produce enough of a net profit to help keep the company going. It just takes a large adjustment to get use to working "for free" in order to get paid for your labors.

Specialty casting is an expensive route to getting things done, but it has it's place. To have the buttons injection molded (die cast) overseas would reduce the price per kit to a very small amount, but the dies alone will run in the neighborhood of $15,000.00 to $35,000.00! And that's just the "molds" (the "dies")!

The company that produces them will want you to order enough to fill at least one overseas shipping container, like the ones that dumped all of those Nikes and rubber ducks into the ocean. That's a LOT of button sets. Anyone got $40,000.00+ laying around? {grin}

So in comparison, specialty casting is the way to go for this project.

On the 'Net I also have to be careful to quote pricing that reflects what it would cost if someone asked me to do a similar job. If I just told what the materials cost, I might later find myself unable to charge a competitive price on potential jobs ("But back in August 2003, on the Empeg forum you said..."). Hence the quote in my earlier post.

However, several things have reduced that amount by a large margin. One is the loaner fascia and buttons. Because they are in great shape, and need little modification, I will not have to do a lot of sculpting for the masters. And I've been allowed to play with Paul's unit! Whoo-hoo!

It looks very much like Eutronix will be marketing the sets for us, with direct sales through us at trade conventions, via our website, or for the odd special or otherwise weird request. One important note in this regard, we do not sell our own products below the established retail price. The price at our website will be the same as the retail price at Eutronix. But I expect that most sales will be through Stuart's crew because they have the manual. Cool either way.

And speaking of our own website, it's temporarily down and will be back up soon.

[One of these days I'm going to have to figure out how to blockquote these replies!]

BBS FAQ

I will never get back the labor that I put into the job. It's one of those "circle of life" things.

Cool. We all appreciate your contribution.
Most (or all) of the products here are to some extent "labor of love" or "give to the community" type of things. Not that Mark, Steve, Brian, PCATS, etc. don't make a little change for what they do; but let's just say I don't think they're billing $200/hr for these services. For many, it's just a way of making a hobby into a small (sometimes very small) business.
It looks like your casting company is somewhat in the same spirit -- 'cept it must put food on your table, too!
Consequently, we're used to occasional very large delays. Sometimes we get stuff in days; sometimes it takes months (heck, I've been on Brian's illuminated button list for well over a year!).

Thanks.

Casting is our main bread and butter, that's why getting ill set things back.

I do have a couple of small things that I do on the side, too, so that's helped.

We also do a lot of praying around here.

In reply to:

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I figure he's good for 150 - 200 sets

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Agreed. Given the sales of the electronic portion fo the lighting kits, combined with the fact that many would probably buy more than one set, I think that number is quite reasonable.

Stu

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I figure he's good for 150 - 200 sets
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Sounds good to me.