External VFD PCB signup!

Okay, first, the nitty gritty.

-This is a small PCB (2in x 3in) that converts RS232 from the Empeg to TTL for a remove VFD.
-The VFD is designed for a Noritake VFD, the same type (if not size) in the Empeg itself.
-The PCB converts +12, either from an external power supply (AC adapter), or from the Empeg's serial thru the Sled.
-On the PCB there is a switch which 'flips' the TX/RX signals so that you don't have to use a crossover cable.
-Right now, estimated price is $30. This includes PCB & components. I'm not makin' any moey off of this, so the more people that order, the cheaper it'll end up.
-Estimated production date is beg-mid August.
-No, there is no software that actually writes to the VFD. Yet. I may come up with something for my personal use, and I'll let everyone know when. If any programmer wants to try something, let me know, I can forward communication specs for the display.
-The price does NOT include the VFD. If you select an option where it includes the VFD, and I decide not to purchase the VFD's, you'll get the same option, minus VFD.

Sign up Here!! You can also check your info there. Ignore site graphics and such. I just had to pick one of my domains that had database and PHP access. PM or Email me if I forgot to say anything obvious..

Sounds very cool, Mike. A few questions, since I arrived late to the party over in the Projects forum.

1. In your best estimation, how much of a usable display would be expected from a 115,200 baud connection? I don't expect Toby's visuals on the remote display, that's of course way too much bandwidth... But what were *you* planning on putting on the remote display?
2. Are these displays small enough that they could be mounted in the dashboard, kind of like Hugo's little "mini-me" display thingie from a few months ago? Or even on the windshield up near the rear view mirror? That'd be SWEET.
3. I'm guessing that using this precludes the use of GPSapp or anything else that uses the serial port, right? Damnit why didn't the empeg guys think of adding a second COM port for the car???
4. I don't know how much time I am going to have this summer, but emphatic is already doing a lot of work to read the song data, including current track time, playlist length, etc... All things that would be good candidates to find their way to a remote display. Seems like it'd be a nice place for this kind of code to live... How complex is the communication protocol? If it's not too heavy of a coding task, maybe I could throw something in...

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Sounds very cool, Mike. A few questions, since I arrived late to the party over in the Projects forum.

1. In your best estimation, how much of a usable display would be expected from a 115,200 baud connection? I don't expect Toby's visuals on the remote display, that's of course way too much bandwidth... But what were *you* planning on putting on the remote display?
2. Are these displays small enough that they could be mounted in the dashboard, kind of like Hugo's little "mini-me" display thingie from a few months ago? Or even on the windshield up near the rear view mirror? That'd be SWEET.
3. I'm guessing that using this precludes the use of GPSapp or anything else that uses the serial port, right? Damnit why didn't the empeg guys think of adding a second COM port for the car???
4. I don't know how much time I am going to have this summer, but emphatic is already doing a lot of work to read the song data, including current track time, playlist length, etc... All things that would be good candidates to find their way to a remote display. Seems like it'd be a nice place for this kind of code to live... How complex is the communication protocol? If it's not too heavy of a coding task, maybe I could throw something in...

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Good questions...
1. Personally, I planned to simply use mine for kinda a HUD. I drive a Mini Cooper, and the radio is viewable by the driver, but it's way off to the right hand side. So, I'm putting mine just in front and to the bottom of my Tachometer, which is mounted on the steeringwheel. Since I don't need the visulations right in front of me, I was going to simply use my display to show the current song playing. Title, Artist, Year, Album.. all the generic stuff, then maybe a few fields that I use custom-like.
[Edit: Oh, the other reason I was going for text-only was because the VFD does not have gray-shading. It's either ON or OFF. I spent about a week messing with a small program I wrote that read the screen's display, and gave me the output either 'ON' or 'OFF', and adjusted the levels, and no matter which setting I put it at, Menus and aliased text was rather hard to read. (The visuals, however, didn't look too bad..)
2. These displays are friggin' TINY. At least, the one I plan on using (GW128x32C-K610A) has a viewable display area of roughly 1in high by 4in wide. The entire VFD board is 1.5in high by 5in wide.. Same dot resolution used by the Empeg, just higher DPI.
3. Actually, I've been thinking about that. I don't know enough of the GPSapp to anser completely, but if the GPSapp does NOT need commands sent *TO* the GPS, then it wouldn't be difficult to just plug in a small serial 'Y' cable and cut the RX leads in it to the GPS, and on my little PCB, cut one trace. That way inbound to the Empeg comes FROM the GPS, and outbound goes To the VFD..
4. It is pretty darn simple. In fact, upon powerup, the VFD defaults to having the cursor in the upper left-hand side. For characters simply send the ASCII code. (Straight Text). The manual says that the cursor will 'wrap' after it hits the end of the line, although I haven't tested it yet. (Will it move down a line? Will it cut off the last character if it can't fit? etc etc.) Other commands are usually preluded by a 'command' character (ASCII < 0x20), and then the values to that command. Quite, quite imple. The VFD dosn't return anything except "R" on powerup/reset, and "E" on command error.

Of note, also, the VFD is standard color, however, they do sell filters for it, as I'm sure Darkstorm's gels would work just as well...

Me.

No, there is no software that actually writes to the VFD. Yet. I may come up with something for my personal use, and I'll let everyone know when. If any programmer wants to try something, let me know, I can forward communication specs for the display.

I was under the impression that Hugo has already got something working with some changes to the kernel. Perhaps he would like to share that code with the world. It could be incorporated into 3.0 or maybe into Hijack.

You don't need to send ascii letters only. You can do graphics at 115,200 BPS. Some math:

128 pixels by 32 pixels = 4096 pixels per screenful. Assuming the kernel code only sends 1-bit graphic information, that means you could theoretically (depending on how the VFD wants its graphics inputted) get about 28 frames per second. That's not bad. And it could become a full display extender at that point.

What about the software "V99" was using for the remote display he made the video of ? He had the display and that neat joystick / rotary control hooked up somehow too.

Well, not exactly..
For every bit, you'd have to send:
3 characters to set the position, then 1 character to turn pixen on or off.
4 characters per pixel. (At lowest efficency, of course.)
This would drop that down to roughly 6 frames/second.

But, again, on top of that, alot of the graphics just wouldn't look pretty, since we have 4 'colors' on the main screen, and on the remote screen, we have 2...

Me.

Oh, and to address some of the e-mails -
No, signing up does NOT mean you are actually going to BUY one. It's for me to get a measure of how many I'll have to make, therefore, a better price guesstimate.
However, once I get to the point of making them, I will go by that list, starting at the beginning, so if you're NOT on it, you will have to sign up at the end. If I get to you, and you drop out, that's perfectly fine. I'll just give your e-mail to several adult sites. (Kidding! )

Again, right now, I'm estimating about 20 units, and if so, that will be about $30 each.

Me.

I don't think that splitting the Tx/Rx wouldn't work at the moment. I think that GPSapp will balk if it can't open the serial port. Maybe I'm wrong.

For every bit, you'd have to send:
3 characters to set the position, then 1 character to turn pixen on or off.
4 characters per pixel. (At lowest efficency, of course.)
This would drop that down to roughly 6 frames/second.

Is that because the VFD doesn't support some kind of "blit" mode where you simply send it an ordered array of pixels?

Seems kind of strange that they'd make a bitmapped display that couldn't actually take a bitmap as input.

I'm right in the middle of installing everything into my Miata.. I should have more pictures this weekend.

My software is written for the 3100/3900 series Noritake displays.. The command set is very similar to some of their other ones like the 7000 series, but the one foxtrot_xray is using is totally different (and far simpler). It's fairly primitive at the moment (blitting by pixels changed, or the entire bitmap, etc), and really needs to be improved because I've painted myself into a corner speed-wise by choosing a display that's 4x the size (256x64) and only 38,400bps .. But I have some evil plans for the extra screen real-estate.

... that means you could theoretically (depending on how the VFD wants its graphics inputted) get about 28 frames per second. That's not bad. And it could become a full display extender at that point.

And that's just the simple way to do it (or the worst case).. depending on the command set of the chosen display the drawing can be optimized significantly.

Well, not exactly..
For every bit, you'd have to send:
3 characters to set the position, then 1 character to turn pixen on or off.
4 characters per pixel. (At lowest efficency, of course.)
This would drop that down to roughly 6 frames/second.

Is that because the VFD doesn't support some kind of "blit" mode where you simply send it an ordered array of pixels?

The K610a does have commands to draw bitmaps by sending data either horizontally or vertically (0x18 and 0x19).. the 3900 and 7100s only do vertical, which is bloody annoying. I've attached the spec sheet for the K610a in case anybody wants to look at it (can't remember which are on their site and which you have to ask them for).

I don't think that splitting the Tx/Rx wouldn't work at the moment. I think that GPSapp will balk if it can't open the serial port. Maybe I'm wrong.

Right now I have separate apps for blitting to my VFD and receive commands from the joystick.. they seem happy enough sharing the serial port (with the same code used to open it in each).

Just noticed this re-reading the thread.. regarding speeds:

1. In your best estimation, how much of a usable display would be expected from a 115,200 baud connection?

You can do graphics at 115,200 BPS

If we're talking about the tiny display foxtrot's using (and Hugo posted pics of), it only runs at 19,200bps max (unless Hugo releases whatever hackery he does to get it faster)... The 3100/3900-series is 38,400, and the 7000-series is 115,200.

Even the primitive drawing that I have now is fast enough to be useful for non-vidual info modes.

photo of pcb assembled?

Yeah, it's kind of strange. The display DOES have commands like 'box' and 'line', 'reverse' and such.. Just have to specifiy each dot when writing full-graphics.

Now, you COULD write some algorithm that split the display up into sections, and converted the 'only changed' parts from the previous fram into batter commands, like line and fill boxes and such, but that would increase the CPU usage, definately..

Me.

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The K610a does have commands to draw bitmaps by sending data either horizontally or vertically (0x18 and 0x19)..

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Ooh, no, you're right. I just posted where I didn't think it had a command like this, and you bring that up. Thanks. It's still not AS highly optimized as sending jule 4096 woth of info (still goitta send headers) but it's somewhat better than 4 frames.

Me.

What is the estimated cost of the Noritake VFD?
I would be intrested in something like this, as the eye distance between the road and the empeg is quite far in my Golf.

Well, consider me interested in this project... It sounds very cool.

The model I'm using and the one that may come with thie kit if it works out easier, is roughly $120. I think if I have a certain amount, there's a cut in the price, but not sure at what quantity.

(And, for the record all, those things are *BRIGHT*. Those many dots, packed in a small space..)

Me.

BRIGHT might not be good when placed in drivers view, is brighness adjustable?
$120 sounds normal.

is brighness adjustable?

You could always adjust it with a tinted lens in front of the display.

- trs

THey would work. On top of that, yes, brightness is adjustable. I don't have the spec sheet, but it either has 4 or 7 different levels of brighness.
The only catch is that it's software controlled - meaning you ave to send it a brightness command from the serial port...

Me.

Greetings!

$120? I was able to get the ones in the empeg for about $60 each. If there is a part number for me to look up, I can try the same folks at Noritake, see if I can get something a bit better than $120...

You were just getting the glass display part right. I believe what he is getting is the display on a pcb that is ready to be connected to a serial port.

Valid point.

Hey, if you can get it cheaper, go for it, and let me know. Part # is GW128x32C-K610A... Won't save me anything, since I already got mine, but save some others some moola.

Me.

Greetings!

Yup. Slightly better, anyway... The Noritake person I am dealing with is a car audio enthusiast, so he is always very helpful when I call and explain what the stuff is for. He was really concerned that I knew the size of the (very small) module, until I told him that these might be used in-gauge...

For 20 units, I can get them at $105.93 per. The price goes down a little from there, but the big discounts don't start until you get to 100 units ($90).

If anyone is interested, I am considering an order of 20 to cover (some of) the initial requests for the external VFD PCBs. Obviously, I don't want to get too many, because I don't want to have leftovers...

Definately interested in one.

/Michael

Also definitely interested in one. I sent through a request for PCB w/ vfd on foxtrot's site.

- trs

Okay, I'm surprised this hasn't been touched on yet, so I'm just throwing it out there...

Three words... Heads.. up... display.

I'm no whiz with lenses, mirrors, and other optical thingies, but couldn't a VFD be turned into a jet-fighter style heads-up display with a little trickeration? I'm not talking about something that shines right onto your field of view, but maybe something that shines song info and other goodies somewhere on your windshield that's out of the way (underneath/beside the rear view, maybe.) Seems that VFD's are pretty bright, and, at least for night time driving, this could actually be doable...

Not that having a VFD in with the gauges and such isn't a great idea, but it'd be even cooler (and, yes, geekier) to have a heads-up display. So, am I crazy here? Or would this actually be feasible?

I don't see why it couldn't. I think you couldn't use the display I was planning, because it'd be too small. You'd only see a blue-green blur on the road in front of you.

Anyone here good with optics? I would definately go for something like that, the way my dash is made out, I wouldn't even see the vfd, then..

Me.

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He was really concerned that I knew the size of the (very small) module, until I told him that these might be used in-gauge...

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What, is the size supposed to be top secret or something?

$105 isn't bad at all, I'm checking my records to see how many people said they might be interested in a VFD as well.. Can you ask him about the 'colored filters' they 'advertise' on their website?

As of now, about a day after I put the page up, I have about 23 PCB's ordered from 13 different people, of which, 14 of those units INCLUDED a VFD. So, we're pretty close to 20 already...

Me.

We would either need a display with mirrored image, or another mirror, and I cannot see how could reflection from windshield fail to be rather distorted. Depends on geometry, of course....

We would either need a display with mirrored image, or another mirror, and I cannot see how could reflection from windshield fail to be rather distorted. Depends on geometry, of course....

As for the mirroring, why not just flip the image as needed in software?

Distortion is a problem, but aren't there ways to minimize that? If nothing else, maybe some special kind of "screen" that you attach to your winshield? Takes away from some of the neatness of having it projected right onto the windshield, but might minimize distortion...

As for the mirroring, why not just flip the image as needed in software?

I assumed we are talking display that only accepts ASCII. With graphical display, of course, we do that in SW.

Distortion is a problem, but aren't there ways to minimize that? If nothing else, maybe some special kind of "screen" that you attach to your winshield? Takes away from some of the neatness of having it projected right onto the windshield, but might minimize distortion...

The reflective surfase just has to be flat.

I assumed we are talking display that only accepts ASCII. With graphical display, of course, we do that in SW.

Ah, hrmmm.. Yeah. A mirror, I guess.

The reflective surfase just has to be flat.

Hmm. I don't think a little bit of distortion would be a problem, on my windshield at least, the center area is flat enough that I think it'd be very legible.

The question is, would a VFD put out the light in enough of a... umm... direct manner (?) that it wouldn't be fuzzy when projected onto the windshield... This is where we need our physics PhD's to step up and join the fun...

VFD won't be projecting anything; your windshield simply acts as a mirror. Now, aditional problem is that you will probalby get reflection from several wintdshield's layers...

Try simple test with bright drawing on white piece of paper (or perhaps better, little pieces of tinfoil or similar bright bits on something dark) on sunny day with the car turned into the sun. Place it under the windshield and more around to see posibilities for placement and resulting image quality.

Hm, small display like this would perhaps benefit from a Fresnel lens...

While I really like this idea, wouldn't it be hard to see the projected display on the windshield in bright daylight? (or even worse, in direct sunlight?)

Yeah, and in my original thoughts on this, I said "at least for night time driving." Obviously something like this would be constrained by ambient light and especially by direct sunlight.

The use of some kind of tinted or translucent screen might help this somewhat, I'm not sure... But I wasn't thinking of this as very useful for day driving... But if someone can prove me wrong...

Paul,

I'd also be interested in one.

If any VFD is going to work for a HUD in the day it's going to be the tiny one (K610a).. it's several times brighter than all their other displays because each pixel is directly driven.

It is really, really tiny though.. before ordering one I would strongly suggest you print out a screengrab of the Empeg display at 39.3 x 9.7mm and put it where you want in your car and see if you can read the display without squinting and staring at it (always a good idea when driving).

Ooh, no, you're right. I just posted where I didn't think it had a command like this, and you bring that up. Thanks.
It's still not AS highly optimized as sending jule 4096 woth of info (still goitta send headers) but it's somewhat better than 4 frames.

The headers are only 6 bytes, 0.15% overhead, vs drawing pixels, 300% overhead.. The K610a being only 19,200bps ( = 4.6fps unoptimized ) is far more significant.

We need someone to buy one of these (scroll down) for experimental purposes!

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We need someone to buy one of these (scroll down) for experimental purposes!

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OMG that would be too cool for words.

This whole project has got me pretty excited. I'm suprised this thread length isnt up to the hundreds by now.

Hasn't had time. I JUST posted it friday! :>

Me.

Just as a note for the 'HUD' angle: if you take a small piece of stick-on window film and place it where you'd like to see the image, you'll have greatly improved image quality and good daylight visibility.
If you visit http://hud.cz28.com, you'll see the progress I made with a home-made HUD, and some of the bits I used.
In any instance, it's possible and doable.

Hope you folks get it working. I can recommend the products from www.controlanything.com - they're RS-232 connected VFDs (using a small daughterboard), and you can load your own graphics and fonts. I reversed my fonts and they reflected just fine off of the window/tint combination.

Anyway, just my USD$0.02, adjusted for inflation.

Dan (and since I haven't adjusted my profile in a long time, the correct e-mail address is [email protected])

Wow, looks promising... I knew *someone* had to have tried it at some point. Great stuff!

So am I right in surmising that it's pretty worthless during the daytime in any kind of sunlight?

Well, here in Western Washington, strong direct sunlight usually isn't an issue. :-) I actually did make a trip or three in the day and it worked just fine, provided the tint patch on the windshield provided some shade for the VFD. I was actually thinking of playing with some polarizing materials to filter out some light, but never got that far.
I would theorize that in an area of strong sunlight - say Tucson, Arizona in August - the image would get washed out.

I did also get a smaller, pre-built HUD from a company called 'Defi' (http://www.defi-shop.com), which came with a similar but much lighter tint-strip for the windshield. I had it in my Talon for a long time, and it had absolutely no issues in direct sunlight.

Dan (and I really will go change my sig *right now*)

Hey guys! Just a price update, now that I got the PCB quote back. First, the parts list and prices from Digikey..
[IC1] MAX233 MAX233CPP-ND (50x4.32)
[SW1 DPDT Switch CKN5003-ND (25x6.168)
[DB1] DB-9 Header A2096-ND (25x2.4388)
[J1] 10-pin Header A26267-ND $0.44
[J2] Power Jack CP-102A-ND (10x0.33)
[VR1] +5V Reg. 296-13996-5-ND (25x0.39)
[D1] 1N4001 Diode 1N4001GCT-ND (10x0.22)
[C1] 1uf Cap. P993-ND (10x0.14)
[C2] .1uf Cap. P984-ND (10x0.14)
[C3] .33uf Cap. P988-ND (10x0.14)

PCB price is, based on an order of 50, $12 per board. Prices for parts & PCB, above, again based on 50qty, is roughly $25.00.
This does not include shipping, nor my timely fee for assembling it for you.. (No worry. I'm cheap.)

Right now I have 32 orders. I/m guessing I'll have 50 by the time I actually have to order parts, so I'm not worried. Plan on that being the final amount (again. + shipping).

Thanks!
Me.

Greetings!

A follow-up. I did not hear anything back from Noritake, so I got back in touch with the sales rep. He has been on the road, but gave me an alternative contact. I just wanted to get a reality check, since these units are too expensive for me to randomly buy and (possibly) get stuck with leftovers.

Anyone interested in getting one of the mini-VFDs, model GW128x32C-K610A, knowing that they are tiny, send me email or a PM. I am looking at getting 20 units, but I just want to make certain there is interest to support this. Thanks!

Do you have a link to the screen? Maybe a guess as to how much they will be? I maybe be interested in getting one.

Greetings!

The estimate, based on 20 units, would be about $105. As to the dimensions, I think they are in this thread. There is very little documentation (that I am aware of) for this model on the web.

There is very little documentation (that I am aware of) for this model on the web.

The PDF spec sheet for the K610a is attached to one of my posts above (direct link). It has sizes, the command set, font samples, etc.. everything you need, and it's all that's available AFAIK. One non-obvious note in there is that it runs on TTL-level (0-5v) serial, which is one reason why you need something like foxtrot's board.

Cool! Sorry, I had forgotten about that. But I am still interested in trying for a bulk order. I am also trying to see if they can be bundled with the board as an assembled unit. More to follow...

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Anyone interested in getting one of the mini-VFDs, model GW128x32C-K610A

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would the size of this display be suited to the head up display setup ?