How Sonic Blue is DeSTROYING themselves

I don't know who is in charge of R&D or market research over there at RIO but they need their head examined, BADLY.

Let's take a look at a few things, and try to do it from a standard user level not some uber computer god.

EMPEG is created , people love it, sells a few, but it is beyond the financial scope of most.. so they buy the product and market under the rio name. KEEPING THE PRICEPOINT IN TACT. first great move :/ Not long there after they decide to discontinue it promising continuing support. rigggggggggghht. where are the tuners now? oh yah that's right there are none.

Having failed with the RIOCAR they are first and foremost to expand the technology into a home market with the rio receiver... pretty good idea, not TOO expensive, but it requires an ethernet connection at least if you want to stream a LOT of data it does. Still a good product.

Let's not stop there, i mean there MUST be a demand for HIGH end products though, even though the EMPEG basically financially failed.

So they put out the RIO AUDIO CENTER. cuz there must be a VAST market for 1500 receivers when you can get 100 disc changers for $200 now..don't get me wrong, it is a nice product, but how many people are going to shell out that kinda money for it.. and of those, how many people are pissed off about their empeg and the state of it, support wise, lack of peripheral wise.. and just all in all the way they handled the demise of the empeg.. i would hazzard a guess that a pretty large percentage of the rio users may have the money and interest to buy a product like that.. but i know that i for one will not.. i just don't trust sonic blue or their product cycle, or their word.

Another product to be released..a hopped up TIVO unit for what is it $1200 or so.. i would love to quote the exact price but gee what a surprise the estore is down in that department. Great the thing has good features, but how many people already own a tivo or a vcr with the same features.. commercial advance.. licensed technology, i have had it for years on my vcr.. works well, nothing new..share recordings between tv's.. you must be one LOADED mother to have a house so large that you need a networked vcr. Video over the web.. fantastic, if i won the lottery i could get one for all my friends, but since they are all making 40-60k a year, i don't see them spending that kinda money on a unit. Wow, ethernet support, hooray :/. digital photo slideshows..most decent cams do that. and i am pretty sure that more standalones do as well, i will think on that. Ichannels.. blah, we will see.. if the product lasts long enough, or the company does. almost every other feature is a standard vcr feature.. certainly available with Tivo or a similar..

the point of all this is the marketing decisions being made are horrendous. Your first high end consumers, willing to shell out 1200-2000 for a car audio player have basically been left in the dust.. with little or no warning. Customer support is almost non existent. The online Estore is ALWAYS down or has errors in stock. NOW, everything that you are planning your future on revolves around a price point well beyond the scope of what most home users are willign to pay.

If i were working at sonic blue i would have to suggest that they get into a market niche where they have a future that isn't based on selling things that most people can't afford and with so many other personal players arriving even that market is going to dump soon.

get some customer support.
value your customers corectly and be thankful they spent their hard earned money with you
get a webmaster that actually has a freakin clue
stop telling tales
find a way to manufacture existing products less expensively or wait on realease until you do.

if you don't your company is doomed. period

I agree.. mostly.
The only problem with SB is the price. They'd sell 3x as many units if they sold at 1/2 the price. Instantly, that's 50% more volume. But by selling more, they can buy components at cheaper prices, adding to the profit margin.

Look at all the interest and incredible sales since they dropped the prices!

Sorry you couldn't get your hands on a tuner :-(

I disagree with your assessment of customer support, David has done a great job. How have we been left in the dust with little or no warning? The product was EOLd in september, and the stock was dropped to blowout prices 3 months later. Software releases will continue, and support will be around for a while.

The estore (SB) customer service is poor though. I agree with that.

Sean

1/2 the price ($750) is just the manufacturing costs of the unit (if i remember correctly) - that doesnt include the salaries of the empeg team and other expenses. It simply cost too much to make.

The only problem with SB is the price. They'd sell 3x as many units if they sold at 1/2 the price.

I forget who said it, but it needs to be echoed here.

When you're losing money on each unit, it's hard to make up for it on volume!

If you think the RioCar cost $199 to make or whatever, when you factor in the development costs, etc. you're on drugs.

I would point out that SONICblue is the world market leader in MP3 products, with 30% of the total market. That's 10% higher than the next competitor. In Japan, Rio Volt is the biggest selling MP3 product. Q4 2001 revenue projections were recently increased from $59m to between $78m and $80m.

A few years ago the portable products were also rather expensive and niche. The empeg car is not a practical product to manufacture and sell cheaply - it needs cost reduction and redesign. It always needed that. We have a solution, and have moved to a different business model to make it happen (licensing to established 12V manufacturers).

The design and price point of the Receiver was influenced somewhat by an OEM, but it's still a nice product and is selling at a more attractive price now. It is NOT end of line.

The HSX109 is a leading edge product which we believe out performs all of the others in that sector. It is priced mid point between the direct-supply PC manufacturer boxes and the hifi component manufacturer solutions. If you think it has anything in common with a 200 disk autochanger, you clearly haven't used one.

I would also guess that you haven't used an RTV4000, which would definitely be my PVR of choice if it gets released in the UK. The price is $699, not $1200, and there is no subscription fee to pay. Tivo would also cost that kind of money if it wasn't subsidised by a subscription model.

I think the web problems you have experienced relate to the eStore, since I haven't noticed any issues with our main site recently (it just got a nice face lift as well). The eStore isn't actually run by SONICblue, but rather by an ecommerce specialist. I can't deny that there are some issues with that!

Most of our products are sold in shops, however. That will definitely be the case with future automotive products, and products which initially ship direct only are likely to become available in retail as production and demand increases.

I particularly take issue with the suggestion that customer support is lacking. I know there have been issues with customer service (an entirely different dept) and the manager of that team has gone so far as to publish his email address here and work on problems personally. If you've had issues with support for the car player, however, I'd be interested to hear the details. I believe we provide an excellent service.

Finally, leaving car customers in the dust.. erm, how do you conclude that? Lots of EOL notice was given, existing customers had plenty of time to buy the accessories they needed, software development continues, and support continues. We're working on getting another batch of tuners, and lots of 3rd parties have offered to get involved with that if SONICblue do not.

Just MHO.

Rob

What he said.

Heh.. what I think is funny about the claim about EOL leaving customers in the dust, is that for a long time I've been thinking about getting an empeg, but never wanted to spend that much money on one. Now that it's been EOL'd, I have the chance (and have taken that chance) to buy one, knowing that there are no more units available. The support shown on this forum itself, is more than I've seen made available from companies whose products are still not EOL'd.. (Like the Nomad Jukebox..) User modification means user support as well.. Even with the hardware EOL'd, it doesn't mean the product itself is EOL'd..

Just my .02

Just to reiterate, I think that we need to make a clear verbal distinction between sales support (dealing with obtaining an empeg) and product support (dealing with problems with the empeg once you've gotten it). In short, sales support is, perhaps, the worst that has ever existed in this plane of existance. Product support could not possibly be any better.

To David Moss, who, I think, has gotten a lot of unintentional slander, I want to express my great thanks at the wonderful job you do, and tell you not to worry about the people who unintentionally let their rightful and genuine anger over bad sales support slop over onto you. They know not what they do. Many thanks.

I just want to go on record saying that I disagree entirely with every point brought up. Maybe the problem is that people saw the empeg as an in-car 200 disc changer...

Since EOL, we have had 2 software updates, with more on the way. Also, there is going to be a serious effort to make a new batch of tuners. But honestly, who uses the tuner anyway? It is "neat" and well thought out, but I'd rather listen to my mp3's....

The only problem with the empeg is that it came out before its time. And that is a compliment, not a fault. Drive sizes were too small at the time of the Mk. I. Mp3's hadn't really caught on yet. This is supported by the fact that many people, even some new owners we have, still don't fully comprehend the empeg untill they get it loaded and installed.

David Moss does a great job. He kept me up to date and answered all my questions when I recently sent my rio car in to get the display board replaced. I have nothing but praise for the support that the empeg team provides.

In short, sales support is, perhaps, the worst that has ever existed in this plane of existance. Product support could not possibly be any better.

I would have to agree.. IMO, Customer Support has left it to the Aibo to run the eStore. This reminds me of some Sci-Fi movie where an entire companies employees die, but they continue tot ship out products via some automatic system.. I'm glad the problem I had with my order is correctible on my end (shipped it to my parents place only 30 min away) and not too disasterous..

How in the world could you agree that product support could not be any better?!?!

Are you implying that David could be doing a better job? I don't believe a team of Davids could be doing a better job. He's the man!

Rob, your a big boss now (congratulations, BTW); time to pop David Moss the big fat raise!! Make it happen dude!
--Andrew

We need to make a huge distinction between Customer Support (David Moss' of the world), and pre-sales/order fullfilment support at the eStore. I think separate entities, I think and two ends of the spectrum, IMO. But, SB is ultimately reposible for eStore dropping the ball.

Even though I have never had a bad experience with eStore (I've placed about 6 orders there), but I was ROTFL when I ordered and received my tuners on Jan 10, while tuners were being sold on eBay for $300, all because the eStore could NEVER get their act together. It took months to get tuners in stock in the US eStore in the first place, and most recently the web site indicating tuners were "out of stock" causing all that frenzy on eBay. Maybe funny to me, but sad, sad, very sad to those who haven't been avid users of the BBS, and whose only experience with Empeg/Rio/SB has been eStore.
--Andrew

I have to agree with you Rob, David Moss with the Cambridge support has been nothing but good to people(like myself) I had a problem with the display board, and had to send it in, and when it came back, the HD cable decided to quit working I sent him an e-mail, and he had me take a look at it, and after I told him that it started working after I moved the cable around, he told me he'll send me a cable as soon as he gets one. I also agree with one of the other posts that he needs a raise

I'm still trying to figure out how I managed not to be zapped by the SB e-store...I got both my orders in good time(Well, they messed up both times with the apt address, they never put it on, so I had to go pick them up at the station)

yea, he's the best support dude

I'll chime in tech support is first class

I lost the wee screws that hold the plug into the cage and the next day two screws turned up in the post.

I think dave isn't even a full time employee if memory serves me right he is doing a degree as well.

i agree, i guess we should create a distinction of sales support and technical support. The issues to which i am referring definately fall into the former category.

As far as the E Store being outsourced.. with this length of time that has passed since it's inception, it is time to fire that group and find another, there is no excuse for that.

I don't think ANY TIME i checked i actually saw the tuners listed as available on the estore.. why even bother to have one? kill it, make it phone in only, and pass teh savings onto the customer, since it is so ineffective anyway.

As far as the EOL notification, i KNEW that the actual EMPEG had been dc'd but i was SPECIFICALLY TOLD peripherals would still be available. i received no e-mail, nothing that said they would not be..

To me that is obvisouly a lack of efficiency within SB. if an existing customer emails you for tech suppt or faceplate, anything they should be put into a database, that whole database should have been mailed specifying that faceplates, tuners, etc. would not be available after this run.

That is a HUGE gripe with me. I see that software releases are still coming, but let's look at one subject there.. WMA. Obviously SB has some licensing agreement in place for their other product line, what is the deal with the empeg? we keep hearing soon soon, but when is soon NOW? HOW HARD CAN IT BE TO MAKE AN AGREEMENT WITH MS ABOUT WMA WHEN THERE ARE ALREADY SOME IN PLACE.. imho the problem is MS probably wants the same money and SB sees the empeg as something that will not make any more money so they aren't going to spend much adding that particular feature when it will COST them.. what was the q4 earning 80m $? god forbid they put that back in and do a tuner run, or license wma, or make some faceplates..typical corporate "could give a [censored] less attitude"

THAT bothers me a LOT.

Actually I'm not David's boss, he works for Jim Hafner-Eaton, who runs all of customer service and support.

Rob

I think you may be making incorrect assumptions about the nature of the licensing problem with WMA. I am reasonably sure that it has nothing at all to do with money. It's more like minor technicalities in the contract which need to be straightened out.

I've stated before, the WMA delay has absolutely nothing to do with money. Go ahead and call me a liar if you want, but at least acknowledge my statement.

The delay applies equally to the HSX109 - until the specific problem is solved, we can't ship either product. My understanding is that the problem has been solved by now, but I haven't heard that from legal and I'm not shipping any WMA code until I do.

If you gave some thought to the architecture of these two products, and the identity of the supplier of this component, I'm sure you could work out what kind of an issue might have occured. It can be solved, it has probably already been solved, and WMA will ship when I receive an email confirming that it has been solved.

Furthermore, I would point out that this issue did not exist until a license was changed JUST before we released 2.0 Beta - when we said it would be in 2.0 we spoke in good faith.

Rob

Is the Replay hard drives upgradable? The $699 is the low end model -- is the only differnce hard drive size? How many hard drives does it come with?

Calvin

As for the other points:

Tuners have nothing to do with money. Right now nobody in SB has said "no" to making another batch, we just haven't had the time to talk with the right people. We've been a little busy at CES ensuring the future of the car audio line.

We anticipate that the answer might be "no" because there doesn't seem to be a precedent for manufacturing a discontinued product. Various qualifications expire, there's no resource to manage the vendor and so forth. We do, however, have several third parties with a strong interest in making a production run if there is sufficient demand. If we go that route I would expect a third party to cover themselves by taking firm pre-orders.

All of this is conjecture, and your attacks are based on conjecture. A few weeks ago there were lots of flames from people who placed orders at the store over Christmas and believed they would not receive those orders, when in fact the vast majority of them did so. Why don't you wait until the thing you're attacking has actually happened? You might find you don't have to bother.

Fascias - I stated several months ago that we would not be making any more, because the tool is worn out. The tool is worn out because we have made a hell of a lot of them, and have a huge quantity in stock. When I have a minute to organise things I'll get someone in over a weekend to assemble all the kits and ship some over to the eStore. Maybe we'll run out of them one day, but I doubt it. We even have a significant quantity of blue screens set aside for service.

What's next?

Rob

see this is the thing, you have them, you don't have them, they are in the uk, they are in transit, they are not on teh estore, they are there but not listing, they are sold out, they are not in stock anywhere.. take a minute and look at the responses that have been given over the course of time about ordering from teh estore..

tell you what, i will CALL tomorrow and see what the rep has to say to me.

Yeah, they are sold out, and we will make some more (which involves putting them in a nice little bag with a hex key) and then they will be back in stock. You might have to wait a couple of weeks to get your screen kit for your EOL product but if that isn't acceptable I'll have David put one in the post for you tomorrow.

If you call the Rio Car support number that's what you'll hear. If you call the eStore you'll hear that they're out of stock, and they won't know when they'll be in stock because I haven't told them.

I should probably spend less time on the BBS writing this kind of stuff.

Additional Note: I see where you picked up on the in-stock not-in-stock thing now. When I saw "we have them in stock" the "we" part refers to Cambridge. We have all the parts in stock to make the kits, and we also have some completed kits in stock at our international store. The only place in the world where you have to wait to get a screen kit right now is the USA and - frankly - that makes quite a change.

Rob

I have read more complaints after the big price drop than the total number of complaints since the player was released.

I have no sympathy for anyone that didn't get what they wanted that waited for the big price cut. you could have gotten one long ago. and if you couldn't afford it then too bad no one is entitled to an empeg.

this is just like freebate day at compusa.

what the hell are you mumbling about, i have had an empeg for probaby a year and a half now.. i never had the option to BUY a tuner they were never in stock when i was able to order.. jesus.. sorry i couldn't drop the holiday season but someof us travelled and far at that.. all teh way to brighton.

And Another Thing

This is an UNOFFICIAL message board, i was/am simply expressing my POV on the events of empeg's demise and such as I SEE THEM. No one has the ability to tell someone else they are wrong when they state an opinion..that is the great thing about opinions. I tell you what, when WMA and tuners are both available, i will be thrilled.. my post pertains to where i see SB going wrong.. and having worked for large firms that specialized in given fields and seeing 2 big ones go under.. i am simply stating that if this sort of product line/pricing regimen continue, SB has no future.. portable players are great but how many companies are now in that market that weren't a year ago? TONS. I hope SB does succeed, i really do. I think the products that have been coming out are fantastic.. but not for the prices they are asking. The only way to lessen production costs is to make the technology more mainstream.

Look at WAVO. Anyone know anything about that company? Fantastic ideas, crap implementation. Can't draw a direct parallel between the two, other then the fact that both pushed technology ahead of its' time. WAVO failed miserably. In their case it wasn't end users that had to pay tons of $$ it was ad sponsors.. the bottom line is, with the economy how it is now, how can one possibly think that TOYS in the realm of $1000 can support a company? i will be surprised if the marketshare for portables doesn't drop, then again there may be something new and fantastic only SB has around the corner that saves them that loss.

I still think you need to fire the e-commerce company, i am sure you are paying them boatloads of cash and well.. they just don't deserve it. In fact i would love to know who they are so i never use them.

It would have also been really nice to get notification there were no more tuners.. and may never be again(perhaps there will be, that would be fantastic).

Anyway, this post was not a target TOWARDS the SB guys that come here to post.. or to help , or the board mods.. it was simply to vent my anger #1, and to explain where this kind of action takes companies, which is directly out of business.

"A few weeks ago there were lots of flames from people who placed orders at the store over Christmas and believed they would not receive those orders, when in fact the vast majority of them did so."

majority of them? should they have even been able to order if it couldn't have been fulfilled?

Honestly, I don't really care what SB does. I think I'm the only one at that. I've had my empeg for a year and a half and I'm happy with it.

I am sorry that there are no more tuners, because I did not have the money for them until I could work during my winter break from school, but I expected that might happen. Now I will wait and see what happens. If another batch gets made, huzzah! If not, oh well.

SB can do whatever they want for all I care.

Hey, Rob! Thanks for everything! I just thought I oughta say that considering the tone of the thread here

The HSX109 is a leading edge product which we believe out performs all of the others in that sector.

I still can't believe the HSX-109 didn't get the CES award from TechTV in that category, and the $2000 player did. The reason quoted for the HSX not getting it was "Well, if consumers are going to spend more then $1000 on this type of thing, they might as well go all out". They also seemed to like the fact that the $2000 one could share to other units, aparently they missed the fact that the HSX would share to cheaper RioRecievers...

Of course, this comes from the same company that gave the empeg a horrid review just due to the high price and amp requirement. At least they liked the Rio Riot over the Nomad Jukebox (Their previous favorite, and battery draining device).

Finally, leaving car customers in the dust.. erm, how do you conclude that? Lots of EOL notice was given, existing customers had plenty of time to buy the accessories they needed, software development continues, and support continues. We're working on getting another batch of tuners, and lots of 3rd parties have offered to get involved with that if SONICblue do not.

I couldn't agree more. I'm one of those who kept waiting for the Empeg to fall in price and happily picked one up when they were given away for free. I did it fairly confident that there would be good support for it; if nothing else then from the community. And failing that I knew that the community is large and could pick up for most problems.

Now my biggest worry is that I am getting addicted and not being able to just order a new one I don't know what I would do if my new empeg some day gets stolen (knock on wood). :-)

I totally agree! I can't stand how cool my empeg is: if it were to get stolen or broken, I would probably go insane. Truth is, I only paid $200 for mine, but before the price drop I was trying to save money to buy the $1200 one.

I really, really wish SB had made a go of this product because it is by far the coolest thing I have ever owned.

Rockstar,

No, no, you've got it all wrong. This is an Unofficial Forum, but it is still a private forum that enjoys a flamefree and virtually unmoderated life. "Venting" may be common at the VWVortex, but it isn't here. That isn't to say that it is "unallowed," just uncalled for. And I don't think anyone objects to you voiceing your opinon. To that you are entitled. I think what people take objection to is the accusations.

I also think that the e-store is frustrating, but SonicBlue isn't really a retailer. They mainly sell products to electronics stores and web sites. I imagine that a very small percentage of their product gets moved through the e-store. But suddenly they clearance price a product that nobody would buy for $800 and suddenly people are giving their first born for it. I also think that except for a few screw-ups (wrong product in the box, etc - which is horrible) everyone that ordered a product that said "in-stock" got it. A few of us even got items that were listed out of stock, and lucky us.

Either way, I hope you get your tuner.

I guess the good of all this is that it gives some people a chance to re-iterate a few things and defend themselves - not that they should have to.