Dialects of US English

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~golder/dialect/maps.php

Great stuff for those of us (hi Bitt) with an interest in US and/or UK English.

Do people really use "anymore" in positive senses? (Q54-57)

And I've often heard it said that "traffic circle" is the US English for "roundabout", but it seems that the ratio of users is only about 2:1 (although in the region of the US where a roundabout is most likely to be found, they seem to call it a "rotary").

Peter

I've never heard "rotary" used where I live or anywhere I've gone. Actually, that's the first time I've heard it used for something other than a telephone.

A few of the people I know will call it a "roundabout", and I do sometimes, when I'm feeling British Most of the time I say "traffic circle".

I'm not sure what you mean about "anymore".

My mom works at National Geographic, and we have one of their HUGE atlases. There's a section on US dialects, in which you can see all the crazy terms areas of the US has for different things. Some are pretty weird.

Oh, and one last thing. Coca-cola is SODA

This page is always a fun read when talking about the soda/pop/coke controversy.

Sadly, the zoomable java map seems to be disabled now.. It was always fun to zoom into the state of Pennsylvania and see the battle line between Philly (soda) and Pittsburgh (pop.) Having grown up in Philly and gone to school in State College (nearly equidistant between Philly and the Burgh) it was always fun to get into soda/pop wars.

I'm not sure what you mean about "anymore".

In British English "any more" is (a) two words and (b) only used in negative sentences:

"I don't do landscapes any more" is normal

"I do exclusively portraits any more" sounds utterly wrong

Using "nowadays" works in both positive and negative sentences, which is presumably how "any more" leaked over from negative to positive ones.

Almost all those questions offer the British term as one of the options (I think they must have found two Britons to answer "car boot sale" to Q58) but some don't (e.g. Q62, where in Britain it's called the "central reservation").

Peter

"59.What do you call the game wherein the participants see who can throw a knife closest to the other person (or alternately, get a jackknife to stick into the ground or a piece of wood?"

Dangerous.

[I've never heard "rotary" used

Boston + New England

Dangerous.

Ha! Good catch! (ouch!)

I think it's called "Mumbledy-Peg" (sp?).

"118.What do you call a drive-through liquor store?"

Proof that capitalism wins over sanity. If you're so impatient to get your booze that you can't be bothered to get out of your car to buy it, are you likely to wait until you've driven home to drink it?

Its "Pop"

"Coke" is just wrong.

As the surey says....

People who say "Pop" are much cooler.

My roommate in New England always asked if I wanted a "tonic." Of course that meant having to drive through the rotary to the Stop N Shop, unless you went to the packy and got some with the beeah you need to stock up on Saturday night for the Pats game on Sunday...

I still enjoy reading this page to jog my memory of the days in New England...

Pissah pohst!

-Zeke

I didn't say "Coke." That would be stupid, as it's a brand name. I said "soda." And I'll point out that I'm not going to say "it's soda." You can call it whatever you want.

I always call it Coke but then again that's because Coke is about all I'll drink.

I do like the word pop for the non-Coke drinks better than soda so I guess I'm . Soda just sounds so old fashioned.

I have an idear... Lets drive to New Yokk in the Cahh.

My family is from Maine, and this is how most of my cousins would pronounce that sentence above. Then again, they made fun of me for not pronouncing the 't' in Baltimore, and "Goin Dowwwn the Oshean, Hon!", and driving up to Blair (Bel Air) and washing your hands in a thing called the "Zink".

Dialects are cool.

Pissah pohst!

Yeah, but if I'd have said "to go to the Store 24 where you bang a left at the light after the rotary to get a tonic and a Hoodsie. Then hang with the townies while goofing on the folks at the standout in the rotary," it could have reached wicked pissah status, you think, no? So don't I...

In Texas all we have is what seems to be 4 or 5 different accents, but no vocabulary like Bahston has that I know of...

I remember when I was in Montana about 25 years ago that they had drive through liquor stores. These actually sold mixed drinks. Like in a plasic cup for consumption while driving. Pretty Crazy.

ROFLMAO.

-Zeke

I always loved how Americans call bags, "sacks" as in we are taking a trip and having a sack lunch...too cool!

Then there is the old "zee" versus "zed" thing...I went to elementry school in our nation's capital (Ottawa) and was taugh to say "zee"...when I moved north, I was chastised everytime I tried to use it in spelling...funny though, you never hear about a Camaro "zed" 28 in Canada...

I'm in the middle of installing Oracle (again), and it' supposed to be done in seven minutes, so I can't hang out long, but I'll shoot off one and get back to you later.

I occasionally hear a positive ``anymore'' in #56 sense from older non-redneck Southern folks.

> I didn't say "Coke." That would be stupid, as it's a brand name.

But I'll bet you make a xerox, use a kleenex, and throw a frisbee around. I say give me a coke personally, and I would really prefer a Coke, but I would say in a pinch that any cola would do.

Okay, now that I'm done installing Oracle....

While I think that many of these questions are interesting, I believe that their sample is flawed. For example, there are many terms that are commonly mispronounced except by the cognoscenti (read ``superior jerks'') that are overwhelmingly shown as pronounced correctly in the survey.

There are many others as well. For example, aunt (ont vs. ant) is probably pronounced ont by about 20% of the population around here -- for whatever reason, the black folks. But it doesn't really show that in their graph.

I think that their sampling is flawed in a very similar way to the ``Dewey beats Truman'' polls were flawed. They're only sampling folks that are interested in this in the first place, which is liable to attract people that are hyper-correct. Not exactly a random poll.

Oddly, I never hear anyone say ``xerox'' generically anymore. Always photocopy now. Used to back in the 70s and early 80s, though.

For example, aunt (ont vs. ant)

Hey, wait a minute! It's pronounced "aunt"!

but they missed my favorite....
have ever been AXED a question???

"I do exclusively portraits any more" sounds utterly wrong

I agree. I've never heard it used like that.

How about "Jacuzzi" and "Zamboni" Both are the last names of the particular pioneers of both devices that are now synonymous with what they are....

I always loved how Americans call bags, "sacks" as in we are taking a trip and having a sack lunch...too cool!

Thats really funny... sack lunch. I've always said bag lunch... and I grew up and live in Maryland... I wonder if its regional.

Then there is the old "zee" versus "zed" thing

Hmm again. I've never heard people around here say "zed". How would you say, oh, yeah, the new Nissan 350 Zed.

The think I wish they tought in my elementary school - putting that little notch in the 'Z' and to a lesser extent, the numeral 7. Its easier to distinguish a handwritten 'Z' from a 2 if the Z has that little mark. Same for 0 and O. That is the worst when you're trying to enter a product key and there are a lot of O's and Zeros, and they don't slash the zero.

to go to the Store 24 where you bang a left at the light after the rotary to get a tonic and a Hoodsie. Then hang with the townies while goofing on the folks at the standout in the rotary

Hhaha...
I need to get a hold of Austin Powers 3 and transcribe that one scene where they speak in "English" with english subtitles...

I could be mistaken, but I think that no one makes Zambonis other than the Zamboni company. However, you're still virtually right, as if someone else started making them, they would still be commonly known as Zambonis.

Actually, it looks like I am mistaken about that, as over at the Zamboni web site, it says:

Zamboni ice resurfacers were featured exclusively on the ice during the 2002 Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake.

which, when corrected for an apparently misplaced modifier, would imply that there are now ice surfacers other than those made by Zamboni.

HeHe, now I know what a Zamboni is....

"Zamboni ice resurfacers were featured exclusively on the ice..."

Guess they don't work too well on grass or concrete...

Hehe, Something else odd; Living in the big easy, whenever I travel anywhere else, people a;ways ask if I'm from Brooklyn. I have no idea why cajun sounds like New York, but It happens way too often to be coincidence.

In reply to:

---

And I've often heard it said that "traffic circle" is the US English for "roundabout", but it seems that the ratio of users is only about 2:1 (although in the region of the US where a roundabout is most likely to be found, they seem to call it a "rotary").

---

Well I'm the rarity of an Englishman living in Los Angeles in a community that has roundabouts at almost every junction. They seem to call them "turning circles" here. And while we're on the subject... (a) they have stop signs at all four entrances to the roundabouts (thus totally defeating the purpose of having them to keep the traffic flowing), but this is probably because of: (b) none of the residents actually understand how to use them, so if I enter a roundabout, and someone else is already in it, driving round, they will quite often just slam on the brakes and stop, confused. Argh!

Anyway, I've succumbed to some of the Americanisms, like Zee (from having to say Zee 80 processor in the old days and Zee-Buffer a lot) and also say "tomayto", otherwise I'd be trying explain my sandwich order at Subway all day long.

Anybody really interested in the development of US English vs. UK English would probably enjoy the books "Troublesome Words" and "Made In America" by Bill Bryson. Very funny and interesting, written by an American journalist who lived in the UK for 20 years.

Time to catch some zees...

- Gary

Those two accents sound absolutely nothing alike. I can only imagine that people are just too stupid to differentiate between two fairly thick American accents. At the same time, I'm amazed that the same people can get as specific as a Brooklyn accent. You should just start telling them ``No. I'm from Red Hook.''

See? That's what I thought. I mean, some of our words sound vaguely similar, but there are MAJOR differences.

In 1985-86 I was in New Zealand, having arrived there, along with hundreds of others, aboard a sailboat. I ended up teaching a course in how to get your U.S. Amateur Radio license to a multi-national class of fellow cruisers.

During one class we were reviewing the phonetic alphabet, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, ......Zulu. I commented that I often heard the word Zed substituted for Zulu or for the letter Z (zee). I said I did not know why people did that but it was relatively common. Up shot a hand. An old British fellow, old enough to have been a fighter command pilot in the Battle of Britain, was ready to make the world a bigger place for this young, provincial American. Ed said, "The reason they use Zed is because Zed is the last letter of the alphabet."

Michael

How about this document from a good source.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq101-1.htm
Notice that Z=Zed was the standard prior to WW2 when they used the "Able-Baker" alphabet.
I believe the current one is called either the NATO or Bravo-Zulu.

"Zed's dead, baby... Zed's dead."

SICNR.

But I'll bet you make a xerox, use a kleenex, and throw a frisbee around.

Yes, I'm guilty of those (except xerox). Then again, none of those are sodas, are they? I was talking about sodas at the time. To me, it's quite different from the Band-Aid/adhesive strips thing. I hear a minority of people commit brand name association with regards to sodas. At least, it's a bit different.

For example, I'm a huge Coke fan, and a large anti-Pepsi guy (except for Dr Pepper, which shouldn't be owned by them). I always ask for a Coke in a restaurant because well, I want a Coke. It shocked me to hear that many Pepsi drinkers don't ask for a Pepsi. Enough, in fact, to have Bernie Mac do a commercial on the subject. Very strange to me.

I always ask for a Coke in a restaurant because well, I want a Coke.

"This Coke tastes suspiciously like Pepsi."
or
"You need to change your syrup. No, this is the same as the last one, it's still not Coke. Well, if you knew it wasn't, you should have told me."

Well, I agree with you, I ask for a Coke and want a beverage made by the coca cola company called "Classic Coke". What amazes me is people who ask for a "sprite coke" or "dr. pepper coke" and the like. It's using coke a word for soda(or pop, if you're canadian)(which, i might add is the only exuse for using "pop" in my mind) that goes against everything I beleive in.

Matthew

You need to change your syrup. No, this is the same as the last one, it's still not Coke. Well, if you knew it wasn't, you should have told me.

You're the guy who makes it hard for the rest of us who don't care. People like you are the reason we get asked "is Pepsi OK?"

Most of us just want a cola-flavored soft drink and it doesn't matter which brand. I hate ordering a Coke and being asked "is Pepsi OK?", when in fact I prefer Pepsi but I know "coke" has evolved into the generic term for cola beverage so that's what I say.

And YES, I have tried just ordering a "COLA" and they still say "Is Pepsi OK?" AAARGH!

Here's my problem with it:

Restaurants carry only one or the other, not both. Sometimes neither, they have a generic or a third-party cola brand. Depends on who the parent company made their deal with. So, even if I did care which brand I got, I wouldn't be able to choose, no matter how carefully I specified the brand or how many times I sent the drink back.

So we should all just accept that "coke" has evolved into a generic term, and stop correcting the brand when people order. Those FEW people who really do care about the brand should simply ASK THE WAITRESS which brand the restaurant serves before ordering if they're really that picky. And not get snooty when the restaurant serves the only brand they CAN serve.

I mean, if I go into a restaurant and order a hamburger, I shouldn't get upset if there's onions on it unless I SPECIFIED CLEARLY that I didn't want onions. Same with soft drinks. If I didn't specify clearly "no Pepsi", then I shouldn't get upset if I get Pepsi.

You're the guy who makes it hard for the rest of us who don't care. People like you are the reason we get asked "is Pepsi OK?"

That's me. Which is good, because I'd rather have crab juice.

Restaurants carry only one or the other, not both.
I know of a place which threw me. They had both. The trick is, their fountain is Pepsi, if you get Coke it's in a can. The cans of course have corn syrup. Oh well.

If I didn't specify clearly "no Pepsi", then I shouldn't get upset if I get Pepsi.

Coke isn't Pepsi. 1 isn't 0. Specifying Coke carries an implicit "not Pepsi" as it is impossible to bring me what I asked for and still have it be Pepsi.

You're wrong. I'd stay and argue but I need to go on a trip now

Coke isn't Pepsi. 1 isn't 0. Specifying Coke carries an implicit "not Pepsi" as it is impossible to bring me what I asked for and still have it be Pepsi.

Wow, I was never aware that this was such a widespread problem. I'm thankful I don't have to worry about this when ordering a glass of water.

Specifying Coke carries an implicit "not Pepsi"

My point is that it doesn't. The name "Coke" has evolved into a generic term. Just like "Kleenex". Your preference for the specific brand, although understandable, doesn't change this fact.

I'm sure that the companies which own those trademarks are very proud of that.

If you're at a friend's house and you've got a runny nose and say, "Can I have a kleenex please", I'm sure you would be surprised to have them respond with, "Sorry, I only have a generic brand of facial tissue. Is that OK?"

Dr Pepper isn't owned by Pepsi. It is owned by Dr Pepper. Perhaps Pepsi does the bottling of DP(since they don't bottle their own). Around here, DP is bottle by Coca Cola.

Hmmm.... Actually, Cadbury Schweppes now owns it:

http://www.drpepper.com/dp/html/index.html

> My point is that it doesn't. The name "Coke" has evolved into a generic term.

I'm with you Tony, and I think we are back to the original point of this topic; Coke being a generic term for all Cola (or Soda or whatever), only in certain parts of the country. In the South and the West it is common, but in the North and East it is much less common to use it that way. The problem is that nowhere is the usage 100% homogenized, so we get coke people bumping into pop or soda people.

I propose we strictly segregate everyone by state and we won't have these problems anymore.

Thanks for the Navy history site. A great find.

Michael

The name "Coke" has evolved into a generic term.

It's pretty odd that they were able to trademark "Coca-cola" in the first place, as coca and cola are the two active ingredients. If I'd invented vichyssoise soup, I'd have been able to trademark "vichyssoise" but I bet no-one would have given me a trademark on "Leek-potato". Presumably they were later (1930) allowed to trademark "Coke" on the basis that it no longer contained any cocaine, but not "cola" because it's still a descriptive term: the stuff may well still contain cola.

FWIW, "coke" is fairly well-entrenched in the UK as a generic name for cola, but I haven't heard it used to mean soft drinks or pop in general. I've only once been asked "Is Pepsi OK?", but that may be because I mostly drink beer

Peter

Specifying Coke carries an implicit "not Pepsi"

My point is that it doesn't.

...You're the guy who makes it hard for the rest of us who don't care. People like you are the reason we get asked "is Pepsi OK?"

I disagree completely, Tony. I mean, listen to yourself. "People like you"? Don't blame other people for what they order. I said in my post that I couldn't believe that people who want a Pepsi don't order a freakin' Pepsi.

I insist that to me and all the people I know, Coke is not the generic term you consider it is. You live on the opposite side of the US, so maybe it is in your area, but I say Coke when I want a Coke. I say Sprite when I want a Sprite, and I say "do you have Dr Pepper?" when I'm not sure if they carry it.

By the way, I was under the impression that wait-staff was required to ask "Is Pepsi okay?" because either Coke or Pepsi was mad that people would ask for the other product and mitake it for their own.

So basically what I'm saying is, ask for a freakin' Pepsi.


ps-about what I said about Dr Pepper. My point was that in my area, Dr Pepper is distributed almost entirely by Pepsi. That's why I grouped it in with Pepsi products.

My point is that it doesn't. The name "Coke" has evolved into a generic term.

Not in Pittsburgh. Maybe if I lived elsewhere. When I travel, I ask "what soft drinks do you have" if their menu doesn't say. When I'm home, the generic term is "pop" and if I ask for Coke and get Pepsi they're wrong, just like you

Just for the record, if you asked for a 'pop' over here (southern louisiana), people would look at you funny. And around here 'coke' can refer to all types of sodas, or just colas, or specificallly Coca-Cola, or a white powder that you snort to get high. On the other hand, 'pepsi' only refers specifically to the brand Pepsi.

I ordered carefully when in New Orleans at this time last year

It worked in Philly just now. "Coke" "Is Pepsi ok?" "What else do you have?"

Don't blame other people for what they order.

I don't. I blame them for complaining when they use a generic term for cola, and receive a generic cola in return.

I will concede that this is probably regional. In my region, coke is generic for cola-flavored beverage. In your region it's not. OK, that's cool.

Heh, I went into a bar on Bourbon St a couple of years ago, walked up to the bar and said "Coke please". The bartender replied, "liquid or powdered?"

I'm sure she was kidding, I mean, I THINK I'm sure.

In the UK if you ask for Coke and they have something else they have to confirm that that's what you want.

Frankly, that's the right answer -- I can't stand any other kind of cola.

Agreed - if I ask for a coke I want Coca Cola, if I ask for a Pepsi I want Pepsi. I am prepared to accept the other, usually, as long as I am asked so I am aware I will get a different drink - like if I want a Stella but they only have Cider, I'll probably be fine with that but want to be asked first!

And in doubt, always go for the bottled version - unless your vendor lets you up the concentrate level to teeth crinding amounts. That's always fun.

Anyway - this survey; quite amusing, but I'd love to see a UK version. Wonder how many folk use 'peedie' and 'stoor' and 'clartie'?

Of course that is the whole point of the original post, regional variations of common words.
The variation changes this impliction of what you are ordering. In the regions where a cola is call soda or pop, then asking for a Coke really does imply "made by Coca Cola".
But in your area, where coke means almost anything fizzy, then you would be dumb to expect a Coca Cola.

I have a question though.
In the regions where coke means "fizzy drink", how do you specify a flavor?

Is this anything like the fact that eskimos have 40 words for snow? You can imagine, what do you mean snow?

But in your area, where coke means almost anything fizzy, then you would be dumb to expect a Coca Cola.


I respectably disagree. Trademark and fraud laws being what they are, if I ask for a coke, then I expect to be informed if they don't have it and give me something else instead. If I am not, then the vendor is commiting fraud. Regardless of whether I really wanted coke, or some other fizzy drink.
Can you imagine what would happen if this abuse of trademarks was extended to other items in estores?
How pissed would you be if you had ordered an 'empeg' and got sent a neo?

Wow, I was never aware that this was such a widespread problem.

Worse yet is the Dr Pepper vs Mr Pibb issue. Mr Pibb is not the same as Dr Pepper. Therefore when the waitstaff assumes it is, and doesn't tell me they don't have Dr Pepper, and they bring me Mr Pibb, it becomes a problem... It's iced tea (unsweetened) if that's the case.

Absolutely. Mr Pibb isn't even close. I drink DP almost exclusively, and when I expect DP, and Mr Pibb touched my lipps, I almost gag. Iced tee is propmtly ordered.

I like both, but they're not even close to the same.

Is this anything like the fact that eskimos have 40 words for snow? You can imagine, what do you mean snow?


I wonder if 1 of their 40 words describes "yellow snow"

but thats not the point, I see what mean and sit on that side of the fence.
No trademark or laws about it, in some regions coke means fizzy drink and not Coca Cola product.
As an example, in Russia, pampers is the generic word for dipers (or nappies), so asking for pampers in Moscow and expecting to get that brand is not going to happen.
The same applies where any brand name has become the generic word to describe the type of product, like xerox for photocopier etc.
The word "empeg' is not (yet) the generic term for a cool car based mp3 player, although maybe it should be
Personally, I think the use of coke as a generic term is a plot by Pepsi to boost thier sales and confuse the marketplace. Possibly by forcing people to use the word Pepsi just to make sure they get what they asked for

I wonder if 1 of their 40 words describes "yellow snow"

hmmm... nope

Most of us just want a cola-flavored soft drink and it doesn't matter which brand. I hate ordering a Coke and being asked "is Pepsi OK?",

I'd rather be asked, since...

even if I did care which brand I got, I wouldn't be able to choose

...that statement is incorrect. If I'm asked "Is Pepsi OK?" I say "No, I'll just have water, thanks." Looks like you can still choose after all.

If I didn't specify clearly "no Pepsi", then I shouldn't get upset if I get Pepsi.

When you say "Coke", that is saying "no Pepsi". If I order a specific brand, I expect to be served that brand. If I order Coke, and am brought Pepsi without being asked, the server can kiss a big chunk of their tip good-bye, in addition to a) bringing me a new drink, and b) removing the Pepsi from the bill.

What really annoys me is when I ask for a medium and am told that for twenty pence more I could have a large. Yes, and for twenty pence less I could have a small one, but I didn't ask for that one either, did I?

I know it's upselling, I know they're told to do it, but I would really like to be taken at my word and given what I damn well asked for!

Bryan.

>>like xerox for photocopier etc

Although I have noticed more and more folk say Dyson instead of Hoover in conversation, even though almost no-one would say Electrolux in the same context.

I guess it may be because Dyson had a sufficiently innovative idea to be distinguished from Hoover.

And I have no idea what a zamboni is. From the earlier posts it obviously has something to do with ice-rinks but it has never impinged on my consciousness. Is it American?

I have noticed more and more folk say Dyson instead of Hoover in conversation

Even as a verb? I can believe people now talk about "the Dyson" rather than "my hoover", in the same way that others will talk about "the Kona" rather than "my bike" or "the 911" instead of "my car", but I've never heard of people dysonning their living-room.

Peter

Can you imagine what would happen if this abuse of trademarks was extended to other items in estores?
How pissed would you be if you had ordered an 'empeg' and got sent a neo?

If I went to an estore and told it that I wanted a hoover, I wouldn't be surprised to receive a Dyson or Electrolux. Perhaps this is another regional thing, but I wouldn't be surprised (and probably wouldn't notice) if I got a Pepsi after ordering a "coke", but I'd be surprised if I got a Pepsi after ordering a "coca-cola".

Peter

A zamboni is used at ice skating rinks to smooth out the ice. Usually in a break from play in an ice hockey game, it'll come out. They're usually pretty large machines that are driven by somebody.

If it's American, I wonder how they smooth the ice in other countries. Or do you not have ice rinks in Europe?

Yea and Snoopy used to drive one.

What really annoys me is when I ask for a medium and am told that for twenty pence more I could have a large.

What I hate is having to scan the menu trying to find out if they have Small, Medium, and Large, or Small, Large, and Extra-Large, or Medium, Small, and Biggie, or Large, Biggie, and Extra-Biggie, or Medium, Extra-Medium, and Jumbo, or whatever. Not to mention that each individual restaurant can't even keep their sizes internally consistent, so that a Large Fries might be the medium size, but the Large soda might be the small.

Not to mention fast food joints that provide free refills, yet encourage you to order the large anyway. Greater price for the same amount of beverage.

I don't understad this either. Having a large, extra large, and some other exremely large size is sort of acceptable. What I can't stand is when they have a medium, large, and extra large. I'm sorry, but when there's a medium, it has to be in comparison to something!

Well, it's no big deal to me. When/if I go to Starbucks, I order a small coffee. I know they don't have small on the menu and I'm quite sure they don't have "coffee" either, but I always get what I wanted.

Yeah, I know this small coffee shop that sells their latte's as 'single, double, or grande'. Grande is about the size of the starbucks venti (and a bit overpriced), but a lot of people are just so used to ordering a 'grande latte' that it actually must be quite profitable

I know they don't have small on the menu and I'm quite sure they don't have "coffee" either, but I always get what I wanted.

Starbucks is IMO beaten only by Subway in the field of making it unnecessarily difficult to order the one thing the company is nominally in business to sell. If I want to micromanage my sandwich on a tomato-by-tomato and dressing-by-dressing basis, I'll make my own sandwich. If I'm buying a sandwich in a shop, I expect the shop to have done all the difficult design work already, and to present me -- they are, after all, meant to be the sandwich experts -- with carefully-optimised results that are good in ways I wouldn't necessarily have thought of myself.

Peter

Your point is very true and I never thought of that before.

I just want to say that I love Subway. Italian BMT is [tfabris]THE BUSINESS[/tfabris]

I would like Subway if they didn't all smell funny and feel stuffy/humid whenever I walked into them. Anyone else notice this, or is it just a fluke of the few I've been in?

And jeez, Peter, don't that have delicatessens in Cambridge?

I'd say it's just a fluke. I know Subways can vary in quality by quite a lot. There are 3 by me within a 5 mile radius of each other. One of them is always manned by a thug, one has Raid ant traps on the couter tops, and the other one is just right. I was in one in White Plains that was outstanding. Very clean and efficient. Usually Subway is manned by only one or two people. The White Plains one had at least 4.

I think Subway's bread is what keeps me coming back. I know the meat is mysterious and the veggies could be fresher, but that bread rocks.

I think I'm with you Tony. All the Subways I've ever been in smelled funny to me too. And their ingredients don't seem to taste like they're supposed to...

Anyone else notice this, or is it just a fluke of the few I've been in?

The one I went to wasn't stuffy. I can't remember where it was now: the only place I've had to fend for myself recently in the US was New Orleans, and I don't suppose a Subway would stay in business too long anywhere within 100 yards of a good po'boy place (i.e. anywhere in NO).

And jeez, Peter, don't they have delicatessens in Cambridge?

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If it's "What are you doing eating at Subway if there are real delicatessens in Cambridge instead?", then see above (I don't think you get Subways in the UK; no-one calls those rolls "subs" for a start, so the pun is a bit wasted). If it's "If you think ordering in Subway is unnecessarily difficult, try a delicatessen", then I've never had that problem with Cambridge delis.

The best sub-like filled rolls I know of come from Chatwin's bakery in Nantwich (and branches in about a dozen nearby towns) in Cheshire.

Peter

Something like that. What I meant was that when one orders a sandwich in a US Deli (at least in my experience), it's a lot like Subway, where you spec ingredients. Just less "corporate-assembly-line" style. I think that what the Subway people were trying to do was turn the Deli experience into a fast food chain. Seems they've been pretty successful, and there are a lot of imitators now.

They don't smell funny to me personally, but my s/o will NOt eat there because she says the smell makes her nauseous. She will eat it if I bring it home, just not in the store.

Also, has anyone else noticed that all Wal-Marts smell the same? I mean all of em, no matter where you are in the world, and it's a distinct odor too.

Yup, that's me in a nutshell.

anyone try Quizno's (sp?)? I see ads on the tube all the time, but can't find one. good ads, by the way.

around here (south of SFO ) I think 'togos' started the fast-sand thing. I can remember them as far back as the late 70's.

(tube,. tele, TV ) you know what i mean. right?

Quizno's is rather good. I worked for one of the first ones to open ages ago. One of the interesting choices is a beefeater, with turkey instead of roast beef. The workers always look at me funny when I ask for it, but I did the same thing to the customer who ordered it from me until I tired it.

There is a Quiznos in The Westchester Mall that I've been meaning to get to (about an hour away). Everytime I see that sandwich floating through the toaster on the commercial, I feel like Homer Simpson. Mmmmmm.... toasty..... gggggggggggggg.

I prefer Jersey Mike's.

Both Jersey Mike's and Quizno's are quite good. Way better than any Subway. The big difference is whether you want a toasted or untoasted sub/hoagie/grinder/hero/poor boy.

when one orders a sandwich in a US Deli ... you spec ingredients

That's one of my biggest peeves about ``delis'' down here in the South. Here, they don't work like that. They have a list of sandwiches you can order. I always end up getting one of those sandwiches except with a different meat, and with this other ingredient, and without that other one, oh and can you steam it instead of grill it? Thanks. I go out of my way to go to a real deli, but most of them have closed now. I guess Southerners like being told what to eat. (BTW, I've lived all of my 29 years in North Carolina, so don't tell me to ``Go Home, Yankee''.)

Also, has anyone else noticed that all Wal-Marts smell the same? I mean all of em, no matter where you are in the world, and it's a distinct odor too.

It's that old people smell of the greeters

depends?

The last US deli I went to was the Carnegie Deli in NYC, where the proprietor personally insulted my inability to consume an entire Woody Allen.

Rob

Ewwwww!

What I meant was that when one orders a sandwich in a US Deli (at least in my experience), it's a lot like Subway, where you spec ingredients.

Oh, right, I see. In that case, the answer to "Aren't there any delicatessens in Cambridge?" is no, at least in that sense of the word. Of course Nadia's and the rest will cheerfully customise their standard sandwiches for you if you ask, but queues would soon build up if more than a tiny minority of customers did that.

I mean, I can see what Subway are getting at, if most of their customers end up feeling "empowered" and that they are having their every whim catered for. But frankly I don't often have whims about salad vegetables, and being quizzed about them as if I deeply cared seems completely unnecessary faffing about when I just want to buy a sandwich, especially as I've already chosen the sandwich I want from a list of names. (The language barrier didn't help, either; French dressing is vinaigrette, yes? What's Italian dressing?)

This is really turning into a rant now, but on a similar note, am I really the only person in the Western world who doesn't care which way up my fried egg is? (I always reply "over easy", but that's only because I can't remember what the other way up is called. If I want to memorise endless meaningless rules and responses, I'll take up bridge -- I don't want it at breakfast-time.)

Peter

This is really turning into a rant now, but on a similar note, am I really the only person in the Western world who doesn't care which way up my fried egg is? (I always reply "over easy", but that's only because I can't remember what the other way up is called.

Amen to that brother...

I find the constant "would you like...", "how would you like..." questions in the States entertaining for the first few days, but after that it gets boring real quick.

The other problem is that the people asking the questions have asked the particular question so many times in their working life that all meaning has been slurred out of it. So when some Chinese woman in Quizno's was asking us "white or rye", it took about a dozen attempts before we could even hear the words that she was saying, let alone work out what our answer was.

I need to have a rant about US road signs now. Why is the language in them so "odd" ? Surely no one would ever say "Right turn yield on red", I mean when was the last time you heard some one use "yield" in general conversation ?

I got caught by a great sign in Seattle the other month. I was driving along the I520 from Bellevue, towards Kirkland. We were trying to find a road that came off the I520 and headed north into Kirkland. At that point the I520 curves around from heading north to heading nearly due south.

As we were driving along there was a sign saying "Next exit last east bound exit". The the f**k ? At this point, without a compass we had no firm idea of which direction the road was currently pointed, so the sign meant nothing to us. Even if we had know which direction we were headed it wouldn't have helped as looking at the map afterwards clearly shows that the exit it is taking about heads north, not east.

Suffice it to say we spent far to long trying to make sense of the sign and did not take the exit. The next exit was five miles away in the centre of Seattle.

If the sign had said "Next exit last exit before Seattle centre" or something then we would have taken the damn exit...

Driving in the US is entertaining though.

There's a Subway in Reading town centre, so I guess there must be a few kicking around. I certainly can't imagine that they'd choose to site their only branch in Reading!

Bryan.

There's a Subway in Reading town centre, so I guess there must be a few kicking around. I certainly can't imagine that they'd choose to site their only branch in Reading!

There is a long list of UK stores here: http://www.subway.co.uk/Store_List.asp

French dressing is vinaigrette, yes? What's Italian dressing?

I'll not assume what vinaigrette is in the UK, so I'll describe both. Italian dressing is closest to what I'd call vinaigrette. It's a mixture of vinegar (usually wine vinegar, occasionally balsamic) and oil, with some herbs and spices mixed in. French dressing is a somewhat sweet, somewhat tangy, orange colored tomato-based dressing, although there's a significant number of wide variations.

The Wish-Bone salad dressing company has a good overview of their salad dressings, which, I think, ignoring their brand-specific products, represents US expectations fairly well.

I always reply "over easy", but that's only because I can't remember what the other way up is called.

``Sunny-side Up''. Precious, isn't it?

Wish-Bone salad dressing company

Look at the ingredients of their "Olive Oil Vinaigrette":

Ingredients: water, vinegar (rice wine, red wine and balsamic), high fructose corn syrup, extra virgin olive oil, soybean oil, contains less than 2% of: minced garlic*, marjoram*, orange peel, spice, salt, xanthan gum, sodium benzoate, sorbic acid, and calcium disodium edta (to preserve freshness) *dehydrated

Yum !

Given that oil and vinegar are both shelf stable and a vinaigrette is such a simple thing, why do they put all that other crap in it ?

"Speed controlled by Radar"

Like F**k it is. Last time I checked it was being controlled by the appendage attached to my right leg.


With regards to the over-detailed "this or that" questions that vendors sometimes insist on asking, my stock answer is "Yes" with a shrug.
eg
"Would you like your sandwich cut into 2 pieces or 4?", "Yes".

Italian dressing is closest to what I'd call vinaigrette. It's a mixture of vinegar (usually wine vinegar, occasionally balsamic) and oil, with some herbs and spices mixed in.

Oh, OK, yes, that's what we (and, I believe, the French) know as vinaigrette.

Peter

"Speed controlled by Radar"

On a related topic of roads & highways: Merge zones. We have them in Maryland. Why wouldn't you have a merge zone? Every time I go to Pennsylvania (I live near PA) to get something, I am reminded that their highways have no merge zone. So, you have about 200 feet to get to highway speed, which is usually at least 70mph. When traffic is heavy, it is common to see people stuck on the ramp because there is no merge area where you can get up to speed and merge into traffic.

Oh, and about the comment someone had earlier about asking for White or Rye bread... Go in to any McDonalds or fast food place and its pretty common the first thing the employee asks you is "Melpuu", which is supposed to stand for "May I help you?"

Oil is not shelf stable. It can go rancid fairly quickly. Unless you're talking about store shelves, in which case, the dearth of oxygen in the bottle would tend to retard rancidity. Regardless, it wasn't my intent to say that USians expect ``other crap'' (which they do, but that's beside the point), but to point out the typical flavor ingredients.

By the way, the xanthan gum is probably used as a stabilizer to help prevent the vinegar and oil from separating too quickly, and not as a preservative, in case you didn't know what that was.

Given that oil and vinegar are both shelf stable and a vinaigrette is such a simple thing, why do they put all that other crap in it?

Well, I can understand the xanthan as an emulsifier, as vinaigrette will separate over shelf timescales. (Yes, you can shake it to re-emulsify it, but it'd put people off sitting on the shelf separated.) And vinaigrette is nice with a little garlic and marjoram in (though I'd add mustard too). What I can't understand is the "high fructose corn syrup" ahead of the oil ingredients. Isn't that the stuff that some other thread complained was used in Dr Pepper instead of sugar? Does it make the vinaigrette taste sweet?

On the other hand I've always been a big fan of "Ranch dressing", which it's possible to find in big supermarkets over here but isn't really on the salad radar of most establishments.

Peter

Oil is not shelf stable. It can go rancid fairly quickly.

It seems to be stable on my shelf...

...I tend to buy very large bottles of olive oil for instance and they don't degrade noticably over six months or more. Things like sesame oil do definitely go off relatively quickly when exposed to air though.

By the way, the xanthan gum is probably used as a stabilizer to help prevent the vinegar and oil from separating too quickly, and not as a preservative, in case you didn't know what that was.

They use it in the UK as well, horrible stuff. You can always spot a sauce or dressing that has it in it, because they have the nasty overly-shiny appearance.

Quite why salad dressing needs corn syrup added to it I don't know.

In fact, come to think of it olive oil must last at least a year, given that there is only one olive harvest a year !

I'd guess that it's to break the acid taste of the vinegar. But that's just to ameliorate the childish palates of the average USian consumer. And yes, it is a sugar substitute, but not having tasted this particular brand, I can't comment on its flavor.

And Ranch dressing is probably the most common dressing in the US, with the possible exception of Thousand Island, which, AFAICT, is a mixture of tomato ketchup, mayonnaise, and pickle relish, sometimes without the relish. Lousy stuff.

And vinaigrette is nice with a little garlic and marjoram in (though I'd add mustard too).

Yeah, I wasn't counting the herbs and spices in my "other crap" reference...

Yeah, but it's got soybean oil, too, which goes rancid pretty quickly.

With regards to the over-detailed "this or that" questions that vendors sometimes insist on asking, my stock answer is "Yes" with a shrug.

I think US English does provide the right word for this occasion with "Whatever", but (a) it sounds a bit rude, and (b) I'm not sure if it would work when spoken diffidently in a strong British accent.

Peter (and his united states of whatever)

Which of course begs the question, why is there soy bean oil in the "Olive oil vineagarette" ?

How on earth did we get onto this topic !?

Beacuse it's cheaper and USians don't know what olive oil tastes like, anyway. (I feel compelled to note, once again, that I am a native ``American'' from North Carolina, in case anyone wants to complain about me being bigoted, which I am, but from the inside.)

LOL....Too true, people over here still have problems understanding me

Example - Whenever I go through the McD's drivethrough. I don't like watery-tasting soda/pop/soft drinks (did I get everyone??), and since the regular size will last me a good half hour and they always put in too much ice, I always order without ice. Or attempt to.

The following just don't seem to work for me:
"Coke no ice"
"Coke without ice"
"Coke, no ice"
"Coke, without ice"

The common result is that they think that I've said something completely different. Such as Sprite. (!?). So then I try:

" *Coke*....no ice"
" *Coca*- *Cola*...no ice"

etc., until eventually I'm doing the Englishman in France - shouting every word really slowly in the hope that the louder and slower I get, the greater the chance that they well understand me. It's gotten so frustrating that I get my wife to order if she's in the car

And what's with that "This Screen to Help Ensure Order Accuracy" thing? 90% of the time they don't use it, so I don't know whether they've understood what I've said... Arrgh.

sunny side up.

(and keep oil out of the light and it will last longer)

"Sunny-side Up''. Precious, isn't it?

..which seems to mean "raw". "Over Easy" seems to mean "almost raw".

I haven't yet found the appropriate terminology for "fully set white, runny yolk" which is achieved by flicking oil on top of the egg, not by turning it over. Maybe I should carry a diagram.

Rob

You've been eating at some crappy restaurants.

Apparently, your way is ``basted''. Though I've never actually heard that term in an egg context, it might at least give you the opportunity to explain.

That reminds me of a neat bit of trivia. Why are green olives always stored in jars, but black always stored in cans?

You've been eating at some crappy restaurants.

..but they told me that Denny's is the backbone of American cuisine!

Rob

..but they told me that Denny's is the backbone of American cuisine!

No, its the other way around. Denny's is just a crappy implementation of American Cuisine, which I suppose isn't really saying much.

No matter how much you polish a turd...

Hey! American ``cuisine'' is certainly no worse than British ``cuisine''.

I would like Subway if they didn't all smell funny and feel stuffy/humid whenever I walked into them. Anyone else notice this, or is it just a fluke of the few I've been in?

We have one in Austin that used to have a guy that would sweat all the time and it would land on the counter and sandwiches. He's gone now so we can go back to that Subway. But you're right, they all smell the same...

My favorite experience at Subway was when I ordered the usual 12" turkey on wheat, no cheese no mayo, just spicy mustard and all the veggies.
He slaps on the mayo and I say, "NO MAYO."
To which he responds, "*sigh* It's just a little can't I leave it on there?"
Reminded me of the commercial where the guy says to the waitress, "I asked for no mayo" so she wipes it on the edge of the table and gives it back...

That reminds me of my favorite ``no mayo'' story.

I was down at my local sit-down college eatery (Two Guys) one day and ordered, IIRC, a fried chicken sandwich, for which I requested no mayo. The waitress seemed to have been confounded by this, and started trying to convince me that I wanted mayo on the sandwich. This two-minute (!) ``conversation'' ended with the following couplet:

``Come on. We'll just put a little mayonnaise on it; you won't even taste it.''

``If I can't taste it, why would I want it on there?''

True story.

This gets to one of my pet peeves. The conversation usually goes like this..

/me "I'll take a medium soda."
/them "we don't have mediums. Just small, large, and extra large"
/me "wouldn't your large be a medium then?"
/them "I guess"
/me "okay, I'll take a medium soda"
/them "would you like to biggie/super/king size that for an additional $.39?
/me "cancel my drink, I'll get something at home."

and as for the sub debate, my vote goes to cousin's.

It's all part of some kind of Great Mayonnaise Conspiracy. It's still in it's infancy because I can't find any info on the web...

the usual 12" turkey on wheat, no cheese no mayo, just spicy mustard and all the veggies

Perhaps a secondary objective of Subway's we-make-you-do-all-the-work policy is to create meals that use more calories to order than you derive from eating them?

At least I understand nowadays (which I didn't when I first saw it) why the line "Give me ham on five, hold the mayo" from Airplane is funny, although I still don't know what "on five" refers to...

Peter

Why are green olives always stored in jars, but black always stored in cans?

They aren't, I've seen some black olives for sale in the UK in jars.

In reply to:

---

``If I can't taste it, why would I want it on there?''

---

Well, in cooking, it's quite possible to add something that has an effect that you can't specifically taste. Vegetables should have some salt on them, but if you taste the salt, there's too much. I agree wholeheartedly on the no-mayo sentiment however. I've had to modify my "No mayo just mustard" line however, as i've found one in ten time my usual sandwich place(Cheese 'N' Stuff in Berkeley) takes that as me asking for nothing but sandwich meat and mustard, even though i've asked for a "deluxe" which comes with all the fixing.

Matthew

(except for Dr Pepper, which shouldn't be owned by them)

Pepsi doesn't own Dr Pepper, they're just bottling/canning and distributing it in your area. Here in Houston, TX it says on the can in front of me "Canned by Dr Pepper Bottling Company of Houston Inc., Houston, Texas 77054 under the authority of Dr Pepper Company, Plano Texas 75024."

When I was in Seattle, the Dr Pepper was bottled by Coca-Cola. It all depends on which part of the world.

Once again, I didn't mean to say "owned". In my area, they might as well be becuase Dr Pepper is not sold in a non-Pepsi location. This includes restaurants, movie theaters, vending machines, etc.

At least I understand nowadays (which I didn't when I first saw it) why the line "Give me ham on five, hold the mayo" from Airplane is funny, although I still don't know what "on five" refers to...

It was meant as a phonetic pun of "Give me ham on rye, hold the mayo".

Well, some of the more expensive black olives come in jars, which leads us to the answer. Black olives are stored in oil, green olives are stored in brine. Brine would eat through a tin can in about a week, so to avoid a really icky mess, green olives get stored in jars. However, jars are by far more expensive than cans, so since black olives are safe in tin cans, they get stored that way. Some black olives are sold in jars for convenience and because it looks better, but at a premium price.

I've never been to a Quiznos before so I stopped there for lunch today and ordered this sandwich. I don't know which was more fun, trying to explain exactly what I wanted to the bewilderment of the employees, watching the manager stare with that look that dogs get when you talk to them as my sandwich came out of the toaster, or after staring at the sandwich for 20 seconds watching the manager proceed to tell the employees how to make a correct beefeater ("with beef!" he exclaimed).

Brine would eat through a tin can in about a week..


I don't know whether you find it in the US, but in the UK you can buy canned Tuna in brine.

did ya ever notice that some butter comes in papper wrap and others in foil? there is a reason for this. has to do with how it will hold up under light.
weird.

You'll notice the inside of these cans is coated in a layer of plastic. This is also expensive.