What to ask when having a home built?

My wife and I decided we want to move out to the country. This weekend we found a lot that we really like (10 acres!). They have already begun construction on the house - the foundation is down and the first level is mostly framed out.

So I don't know anything about new construction and I'm wondering what I should ask. I'm particularly wondering if there are things that I assume are part of a house that aren't in the base price. For example, I discovered that the hookups are there for a washer/dryer but the machines themselves aren't included.

Those of you who have done this, what did you learn?

-Dylan

Not sure what that. But get them to string lots of Cat5 around whilst it's easy to do. You can never have enough and you'll find uses for it

At this stage I'd be thinking about cat7!

I wholeheartedly second the wire pulls. I did that in my basement before the wallboard went up. Made the home theater setup much easier.

Also, make sure the floor plan is to your liking, too: You can make changes now much more cheaply than later. My folks did this when they bought their house - got a much larger kitchen, master bath and two finished rooms in the basement. Don't forget the home server room...

-jk

Take this for what it’s worth. I’ve had two homes built, one by KB (*shudder*) and one by Centex. Neither of these were acreage lots and both would qualify as “starter” homes.

You probably won't get a refrigerator, though you will get a range and a dishwasher. The range can be gas powered or electrical powered, so you'll want to find out which it is in case you want to replace it later.

If you have the options for hardware upgrades (faucets etc.), know that you can put a lot of these in after the fact for MUCH cheaper. Of course, unless you request more in your loan these won’t be covered so it really just depends on how much cash you have on hand and how long you’re willing to wait to get everything that you want. After buying two new houses, however, I can tell you we got a much better house when we focused on finding a builder who did solid construction and not nice bells and whistles. Some builders (KB) put lots of flashy stuff but don’t build quality.

I don’t know where you’re buying, but here in Texas air conditioning is a big thing. In our first house (1800 sq feet one story) our electrical bill got up to $300 a month. This was due to poor construction, an underpowered cooling unit, and virtually NO insulation in the walls. When we bought our second house (2550 sq feet two story) we upgraded our AC unit and put radiant barrier shielding in the roof to reduce heat. Through these improvements and better construction, this much larger house has peaked at $200 ONE time during the summer. AC might not be as big a deal where you are though . . .

Find out what kind of landscaping package you are getting. How much of your acreage are you going to have to sod? In my experience most builders don’t sod the back yard. Grass can get pretty expensive, and you might want to look into getting a sprinkler system. You also should find out what kind of fencing you are getting, though since you’re out in the country this might not be as big a deal. I’ve seen builders who don’t put side fences, though ours have always put in all of the fencing.

Depending on how hard the water is where you are, you might want to consider a water softener, which means you’ll want to know if the house is plumbed for it. Here in San Antonio you do not buy a house and not get a water softener, as the hard water will destroy all of your appliances in five years (the joys of having an aquifer for a water source).

And since you’re a geek (I assume), if the builder isn’t gong to do it for you, you'll want to run networking cable and speaker wire before the sheetrock is put in. This is technically not legal since you don't own the house yet, however, talk to the builder and see how big a deal this really is. With one house (KB) I got the "you can't do that *wink* *wink*, but there's nothing we could do if you did . . ." With my second one (Centex) I got "Don't do that. We WILL rip it all out and make things unpleasant if you try, and we will know." (Incidentally the second house was much better built than the first).

If you decide to run your own cabling, the easiest method is to go to home depot (or wherever) and buy the little blue electrical boxes and position them where you want the speakers and cables to come out of the wall. Then simply run the wires throughout the walls and into the boxes. When the sheetrockers come out they won't know that these weren't put there by the electricians (nor will they care) and will make holes for them in the sheetrock. Then when they’re finished you can buy covers for the speakers/ drops and the whole thing looks really nice.

Finally, though the builder will tell you they have their own inspectors who visit the house through every stage of the process, it cannot hurt to have your own, third-party inspectors to make sure things are going smoothly. Visit the house as much as you can while it’s being built so that you can catch things that go wrong (which there will be). It’s much more difficult for a builder to fix a misaligned panel or a warped piece of wood days before closing.

Oh, and smuggle your toilet in from Canada!

Cat7? It took them long enough to approve Cat6! Be wary about buying cable. Before Cat6 was approved a lot of manufacturers sold what they called Cat6 cable. Most of it was okay but I think a couple brands didn't quite meet the final spec.
If you do decide to use GigE then make sure you don't untwist too much of the cable at the ends and check the radius of any bends. It really doesn't like it if you bend it too much or untwist the ends much.

It's a bit annoying about Centex telling you don't try wiring it up. It's so much easier to just pull the wires when it's still under construction. No chance of offering them a couple cases of beer or something to overlook it?

If you're really serious about it then you'll want to have conduit. And inside that you'll have several runs of Cat6 to each point and a nylon pulling cord if you ever need anything else.

In builder-speak, what you want is "structured wiring". While packages vary, the general idea is that you get a star-shaped topology of Cat5 and either 75-ohm coax or RG-6 that all converges on some sort of wiring closet where you might install your DSL modem and Ethernet hub.

For what it's worth, I bought my first house "spec" (pre-built; I just walked in and bought it). This was valuable for a lot of reasons. My fiancée and I have been living there for a while and have begun to develop a "wishlist" of features we want in our next house. You'll never really know until you do it yourself. Some of the things on our wishlist:

- more storage (more closet space, plus a room where all the boxes and junk can go -- what other people would put in a basement, here you need to have a separate room, as any basement you might dig would immediately fill with water)

- more kitchen cabinetry with more work surface (we have tons of kitchen gear and nowhere enough space to put it all)

- a bigger gas range, suitable for using a restaurant-sized Chinese wok. This would require more BTUs than a standard range.

- a home theater room, purpose built for the task (perhaps using fancy acoustic damping wall materials)

- a three car garage

- ten foot ceilings with ceiling fans (my previous apartments had 8-foot ceilings while my current house has 10-foot ceilings -- it's amazing what a difference that extra headroom makes in the feel of the house)

Add that all up, and it's going to be a pricey house, especially if we get it custom built. That's why it's called a "dream house." But, at least I know what I want, which I didn't a few years ago.

It's a bit annoying about Centex telling you don't try wiring it up. It's so much easier to just pull the wires when it's still under construction.

True, but I do understand. This particular house offered *very* few options (our color package was one of eight pre-determined sets). However, because there was NO special work done on any of the houses it allowed them to offer higher quality building for a lower price. And that might sound like marketing, but having been through this twic I can tell you that they beta KB on price and there is absolutly no doubt in my mind that the construction was better and more effecient. I believe that on higher end Centex homes they are a bit more lenient on such things.

So I ended up going wireless anyway, or at least that's my plan!

Were the bodies moved, or just the headstones?


-Zeke

I second the whole structured wiring part. My house actually came standard with this, and I have since converted many of those Cat 5 runs into ethernet jacks instead of phone jacks. I have a small hub in there now running the ports, and wll be expanding the box down the road when I do a home entertainment setup in my basement.

Visit the house as much as you can while it’s being built so that you can catch things that go wrong (which there will be).

Absolutely! I would go as far as saying "plan to be there yourself most of the time". Builders make a lot f stupid mistakes and assumptions - it's much easier if you notice they are putting the door so it blocks the dishwasher, and can shout "hold it!" than if you discover it after you have moved in.

This goes especially for non-standard or unusual stuff (like ethernet).

What is that thing? It for cable? We don't have those over there in the UK anyway

Were the bodies moved, or just the headstones?

That is one of the funniest things I've seen in awhile Thanks.

We don't have those over there in the UK anyway

Yeah, those of us with Victorian terraced houses constructed entirely of brick-and-plaster walls can only dream of such things. When electricity, gas, and running water are retrofits, you can't expect the original builders to have paid much attention to structured network cabling.

Having said that, the house does have this bizarre thing, running the full height of the house, called a chimney -- which seems to have been the Victorian word for Cat5 plenum...

Peter

Exactly! I have a fair bunch of Cat5 running down the second (non-functional) chimney pipe - funny enough, they didn't seem to have prepared for Cat5 in the 17th century

Visit the house as much as you can while it’s being built so that you can catch things that go wrong (which there will be).

Absolutely! When the place I'm living in now was built, my dad went through the entire house and showed the wiring guy exactly what we wanted. Sadly, he was a few cards short of a deck, and completely screwed it up, despite a very clean, clear diagram from my dad. He put the rear speakers on the side of the room that the TV would be sitting, he neglected to put phone lines in the two upstairs bedrooms (thus my two roommates have been without phones in their rooms for 3 years), and according to another wiring guy, he screwed up the cat5 on every jack in the house. It works, but should be rewired.

So, things will go wrong, but it's nice to have a house in the end

Oh, and if my dad and I were building a house today, we'd go with good ol' Rich Trethewey's radiant heating. The main room has a cathedral ceiling and that makes it impossible to heat or cool.

In reply to:

---

which seems to have been the Victorian word for Cat5 plenum...

---

I think if I ever had a house built I'd definitely insist upon a tech riser and computer flooring throughout!

Oh, and one more thing. On the outside make sure they are using fiberboard (hardy plank) and not wood paneling. I saw some houses on my last house search that used wood paneling, though I think they were mostly very low end

I'm not sure what I'm repeating but here's my list:

1. Copper water piping inside the house (I don't like the plastic stuff).
2. If you're putting in a basement make sure the bottom of the floor joists are minimum of nine feet from the finished concrete (allows for a dropped ceiling so you can always add more wiring and whatever later easily).
3. Rough a bathroom in the basement (if you're getting a basement).
4. Put a conduit in that runs from the basement to the attic (about a 2"). That way you can alway run cabling anywhere in the house.
5. Add gas stubouts on your deck or patio for a natural gas grill.
6. Make sure the condensing units are more oversized than undersized.
7. Pick a location in the basement for a communications closet and homerun a cat5, RG6 and telephone cable from each room to there.
8. Insist that the builder make sure everything is SQUARE you may want to check this yourself. It looks funny when you put in tile or wood floor with wallls that are not square.
9. Make sure the french drain along the footing of the house gets put in (usually black pipe with gravel on top) so your basement doesn't get flooded. And make sure you can see either end before signing off on the house so you know where they come out. Of course if you're in Florida you won't have a basement.
10. Washer, Dryer, Refrigerator and garage door opener typically is not included in a new house.
11. Make sure you get double insulated windows (I think this is standard now).
12. If you want any landscaping lights or receptacles out in the bushes (for Christmas lights) you may want to do this.
13. Irrigation system? I put mine in myself but swear that I will never do it again.
14. Sleeve the driveway and sidewalks (for future wiring or irrigation). I put a 4" pvc under the driveway slap nearest the house as well as a 2" under the sidewalk.
15. Electronic, programable thermostats are nice but you can always add those later.
16. If you want any recess can lights instead of those builder grade fixtures, you may want to consider them throwing those in.
17. Alarm system? If you're not putting one in now maybe a prewire?
18. Think about how your furniture is going to layout and maybe even draw a picture to scale including furniture so you know exactly how to set up your surround sound system. And of course prewire it.
19. Make sure the builder will come back after a year for another walkthrough to fix any sheetrock nails that are popping out or cracked drywall or any other miscellaneous problems.
20. Make sure the sub-floor is 3/4" PLYWOOD glued and screwed to the floor joists. I'm sure you don't want squeaks and the plywood facilitates the installation of nail down 3/4" wood floors if you choose to do that now or later.

Good Luck

Cast iron drain pipes for the upstairs bathroom sewage drains. It is much, much quieter than PVC. Nobody wants to hear crap whooshing past when sitting on the livingroom sofa while watching Love Story.

-Zeke

Cast iron drain pipes for the upstairs bathroom sewage drains.

LMAO!! I don't believe that will be an option for him. But you know you do have a point.

Nobody wants to hear crap whooshing past when sitting on the livingroom sofa while watching Love Story.

Yeah. There'd already be enough crap on the TV in front of you.

Sorry. Had to do it.

Cast iron drains will be especially useful if you smuggle in the Canadian high volume toilet: More water = more noise?

And, of course, noise correlates to inductance.

-jk

That, my well spoken friend, is a damn good point! If I'd been drinking Dr. Pepper, I'd be cleaning my screen off right now.

Jerz - I've never had a home built, is the non-availability of cast iron downpipes a matter of the contractor selection?

-Zeke

I pulled cat5 and TV coax, and I wished I'd thought of fiber.

I've heard of people pulling this stuff (SNTP-HN3). That's what I would do.

I have since converted many of those Cat 5 runs into ethernet jacks instead of phone jacks.

When I still cared about phone I had a few phones running over spare pairs in ethernet cat5. One was the dialup for the house in the period between the T1 going away and the cable modem appearing.

Reminds me, I should sell the phone system I have; It's half-decent, and I'm in no danger of using it.

Cast iron drains will be especially useful if you smuggle in the Canadian high volume toilet: More water = more noise? And, of course, noise correlates to inductance.

OMG, a three-layer BBS-specific refrerence/callback joke. Now THAT's good.

I've heard of people pulling this stuff (SNTP-HN3). That's what I would do.

In late 1995, early 1996, it was hard to find something like this, and it was expensive. Easier to bundle and pull ourselves.

Without a doubt it was hard to find and probably very expensive.

Now a days, though, I don't think a home should be without something like that.

No I believe cast iron pipes are a great deal more in cost than PVC. I haven't seen cast iron used in residential, single family dwellings in this part of the country in many years (actually I have never seen it used in a new house but I'm not that old). I *think* it went out with the plaster walls. However, it is definately used in some commercial work.

Things are difinately not built here to last a thousand years like in the UK.

True, but in the end, 40' of iron pipe? How much can that cost, $500-$1000 extra? I know you sure can't change it later if you don't like how PVC sounds. Maybe it bothers others more than me...but that's the one thing I'm suggesting.

-Zeke

edit: ditto what he said about the high flow toilets!

The local zoning authorities may have something to say about the type of pipes you use. A friend of mine in San Francisco was walking me through his basement and pointing out the amazingly heavy gauge of his steel sewer return pipe. Apparently, that's the building code there, having something to do with earthquake safety (although it sounds to me like it's also related to the pipeworkers' union).

That makes sense. I honestly thought Zeke was kidding though . Guess not. But one advantage of having PVC is that when you finish your basement down the road like I have it is much easier to tie in pvc then it would be cast iron; besides... I haven't noticed the sound of a flushing toilet upstairs when I'm sitting in my living room downstairs. The wife definately wouldn't like that too much.

Cheers!

Now a days, though, I don't think a home should be without something like that.

Indeed. I almost wish I had bought later. Well, I do for other reasons anyway, but that's another story.

when you finish your basement down the road like I have

You didn't think of putting it under the house?

Peter

? I could have but since the sewer line is above the finished floor of the basement it would have been a bit difficult to make it flow up hill and since the basement is below the sewer line it was necessary to install a pump to pump it up so it can flow down to the sewer. Another good reason to rough in a bathroom in the basement since I needed one of those "well" things (actually it looks like a huge bucket that everything flows into) and route the toilet, shower and sink drain to it. When you finish the bathroom you add a submersible pump that pumps everything up to the main drain line so it can flow down to the sewer.

Sorry, I was just being daft about the idea of making a basement "down the road"...

Peter

Not a problem, my wife has drug me through A LOT of new houses several years ago (it used to be her favorite thing to do on the weeked).

edit:
daft ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dft)
adj. daft·er, daft·est
Mad; crazy.
Foolish; stupid.
Scots. Frolicsome.

That's a new one for me.

Great list, Jerz. I appreciate the effort you put into writing it. I wouldn't have thought of a lot of this.

-Dylan

It looks like plywood they are using. What is the advantage of fiberboard?

-Dylan

Fiberboard is a cement, fiber mixture that can be nailed into and cut just like wood, but it doesn't rot and termites don't eat it. It can get a little moldy, but all you have to do is get a hose and rinse it down.

Around here I've seen very few houses not using Hardy Plank (which is a particular brand of fiberboard), but it might be different where you are. Note that this is just for the outside paneling of the house, though. For the rest of the structure you'd expect regular old wood.

That's great information, smelly FerretBoy. A/C is extremely important here in the Wash DC area. I'll ask today about the unit and energy saving features of the house.

This builder outsources the kitchen and bathrooms to a company that specializes in that sort of work mostly for renovations. I'm hoping that this prevents the builder markup I've heard about on these sorts of things. I went through an extensive kitchen renovation a year ago in my current house and I'm now quite experienced in what is available and what it should cost. This is the part of the process I'm most comfortable with.

I like the way this builder does the appliances. I have a $2500 allowance to visit a specified appliance store and choose a fridge, range, hood and dishwasher. I think that's a reasonable allowance for mid range appliances (unless this store's game is to rip off captive customers). If I want better stuff I can pay the difference.

I did find out the landscaping package yesterday and it's pretty much nil. They will seed and hay the area that was disturbed by construction. They rest of the lot is left to me. Right now most of it is open field with ankle high brush. I definitely don't want to be mowing ten acres so I wouldn't want it all sodded but I would like some basic landscaping to be included.

I don't even get a walkway from the driveway to the front door. This was a disappointment also.

We are going to have well water. Good question about the water softener. I also have some questions about the compressor tank they are installing. It's only 32 gallons which I have been told is not enough. I need to do some research on this.

Great suggestions (from everyone) about the cabling. The builder will let me on the property to run cabling myself. He only requests I that don't drill holes without consulting him. From the realtor's descriptions, this builder seems very reasonable and willing to work with me.

My realtor already insisted that I get a home inspector so that will definitely be done at the time of our walkthrough.

-Dylan

My house has Hardy Plank (fiberboard) as well. It's wonderful stuff. When my house inspector saw it, he told me I'd be thrilled. It holds paint better than wood, it can't rot, and it's even fireproof (which saved me some money on my house insurance). Best of all, they can texture the boards with fake wood grain so you'd think they're actually wood.

Of course, brick, stucco, concrete, or even steel/tin siding are all good materials to use, depending on where you are. Bricks have better insulation properties, but you don't want to use brick anywhere that you might have an earthquake. Also, in places where the ground is effectively jello (like Houston), where your foundation will settle, brick or stucco would eventually get unsightly cracks.

There are a few modern houses a few blocks over that have this radical mix of materials on the exterior: concrete cinderblocks, steel bits, and wood bits. It looks remarkably well-done, although there are other trendy steel exterior yuppie townhomes going up here and there that are unrepentantly ugly. (A friend who grew up in the country calls them "barns".)

daft ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dft)
adj. daft·er, daft·est
Mad; crazy.
Foolish; stupid.
Scots. Frolicsome.

Heh heh - See me, I'm daft, me - completely raj - pure mental an' that.

Sorry - sitting next to too many Weegies and Fifers. Many apologies to non-UK'ers for offtopic'ing wildly.

Of course, brick, stucco, concrete, or even steel/tin siding are all good materials to use, depending on where you are.

Yes, I should clarify. Hardy Plank is good stuff to use instead of wood. I think brick looks much nicer, but if there's going to be "wood" on the outside of the house I'd make sure it was Hardy Plank (or another brand of fiberboard).

Ah, now I get it. The house is aluminum siding. That's how most houses are built around here and for years I've commented on how ugly it is. I still think it's ugly but the added expense for brick is enormous. I have a price ceiling and I'd much rather appropriate that money for things like a deck and finished basement.

-Dylan

Ooooh, now I get it... Why didn't I finish it under the house instead of "down the road".

You'll have to excuse me, it was a late night. That's pretty Daft (ahh yes like "Daffy" duck?) .

OK, carry on.

it is much easier to tie in pvc then it would be cast iron

They have these neoprene compression fittings that can tie iron to PVC with little effort and apparently work pretty well. Of course, you might have to fit a new piece of cast iron if the surface has gotten all rusty and uneven for the neoprene to adhere properly.

Here's one called PlumbQwik.

That's exactly what I have. The iron pipes are usually painted, my 60+ year old one in the damp basement has no outside surface rust whatsoever. I've never had cause to look inside, thank goodness.

-Zeke

Yes it even looks like cast iron piping is making a come back in the housing market http://www.housingzone.com/topics/cisp/cmaterials/cisp01da001.asp

"Many builders and homeowners have become aware of the noise problems associated with plastic piping systems. Due to these noise problems cast iron is now specified because of it's superior sound suppression. This time proven material is again today's choice for custom residences "

I'd be curious to know what the adder was.

One thing I learned when my parents built their "retirement house" is to NEVER accept wishy washy deadlines. Get estimated deadlines written down, signed, and have contractual hooks in place if the deadlines pass. It took my parents an additional 8 months to get into their house because of a contractor who did quaity but unreliable (timewise) work.

Yes it even looks like cast iron piping is making a come back...

I noticed this at the bottom of that article (link mine): "Content Provider: Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute"

-jk

You have to rely on pump in order to move your poop away!? Scary!
I *much* prefer pasive safety (its something like Chernobyl design vs. natural convective reactor cooling )

Only because that particular toilet is below the level of the city-supplied drain. Most toilets in the US are powered only by gravity.

Yes, well when it's a choice of putting a bathroom in the basement or not putting one in I think you would go ahead and put one of these pumps in. The other bathrooms in the house are all gravity fed as Bitt said. It seems to handle things quite well and allowed us to put in a full bath as well as a full kitchen.

Wow, 180 gallons per minute (and 2" solids) - even I can't produce that much

Congratulations! Watching your very own house grow is beautiful experience!

I like the way this builder does the appliances. I have a $2500 allowance to visit a specified appliance store and choose a fridge, range, hood and dishwasher. I think that's a reasonable allowance for mid range appliances (unless this store's game is to rip off captive customers). If I want better stuff I can pay the difference.

Speaking of ranges, why American ones seem to always have controls positioned so that in order to reach them one has to put one's arm over flames or deep-fry one's sleeve? Isn't front of the appliance (or right top margin) better place for them? BTW, on this side of the pond the most popular type lately seems to be electric range covered with smooth glass (or is it ceramic) surface. Gets hot (and cools down) almost as fast as gas, easy to control precisely, very easy to clean, nothing to explode... And I would most definitely go for separate oven mounted almost at eye level, rather than 'combined' stove - I love to watch dough raising and roast browning without bending...

I don't even get a walkway from the driveway to the front door. This was a disappointment also.

So, your car gets to enter the house without getting its tires muddy, but you don't? As Asterix would say putting his index finger to his temple, "These Americans are crazy!"

American ones seem to always have controls positioned so that in order to reach them one has to put one's arm over flames or deep-fry one's sleeve?

To keep the kids' hands off, of course! This is a liability driven country, after all.

-jk

Speaking of ranges, why American ones seem to always have controls positioned so that in order to reach them one has to put one's arm over flames or deep-fry one's sleeve?

I can't think of one I've seen off-hand that is like this. The two ranges that have been in my parent's kitchen in an island (one electric and one gas) have had their controls on the front side, and the range I have in my place had its controls on the front, although the controls for the oven beneath the range are on the back face of the range where the clock is. I also went to a showroom for ranges recently (when my parents were deciding what to put in the kitchen that's being remodeled right now) I saw tons of ranges, and none that I saw have their controls anywhere but the front. Maybe you've been using very old ranges?

By the way, the range my parents just put in is incredible. It's made by Wolf, and the flames are just amazing. It'll be a while before we figure out how not to burn our food

I can't think of one I've seen off-hand that is like this.

My former condo had an electric range like that. It was a recent (1995-ish) Kenmore unit. Although, I'm sure it was the lowest priced model since there were no features such as a timer or window on the oven.

Both ranges I've owned have had the controls on the back. I've never found it to be a problem though.

Well, this Drakino's photo reminded me that the only American range I actually used (in Argonne National Laboratory guest bungalow) was also like that, so that was two out of sample of two (not counting movies)

I saw tons of ranges, and none that I saw have their controls anywhere but the front. Maybe you've been using very old ranges?

Or using one that was installed backwards.

"Blimey, how're ya s'posed t' get the ham in the oven?"

I don't like gas ranges - difficult to clean and gas burning leaves traces of greasy residue all over the kitchen, hood notwithstanding. (It might be due to the fact that up to ten or so years ago we in Zagreb used what we called 'city gas' - the stuff is byproduct of turning coal into coke and contains, besides methane, all kinds of rubish. We are now on natural gas.) I prefer electric affairs with ceramic surface, but have only tried those with radiative heating, never inductive ones like this one.

No, my mother in law has one like that but I've got two ranges one glass and one with the electric eyes but the knobs are on the side. Both are drop in by the way.

Ahh, that photo reminds me of something. Make sure they put electrical outlets where you need them. Many people have a crapload of things to plug in around the kitchen. Mine has a total of 7 outlets placed around the counter. Very useful.

And the stove there is the slightly higher then basic model. Built in timers for the oven, and not much else.

The fridge on the other hand is about the best the market has right now here in the US without getting into the "smart" appliances. Here is the official site on it.