God, my Phatbox sucks ass!

So my wife gets a Touareg from VW and I don't even get to drive it. On top of that, rather than clutter up her dash with her unmatching Empeg, 'we' decide to get a Phatnoise so that she can use her stock radio and have the Phatty in the trunk.

This thing sucks ass. I'm sure people have bitched before, but here's another one. It only works off voice prompts, and the tracks only go as high as track 99 for each 'round' of searching/selection. At least they should have attempted to use CD-Text abilities to create a dump menu system or artist announcement.

I've got about 700 artists on this thing now. If I want to play songs only by the artist 'The Orb' I have to pick the artist selection menu, then scroll to track 99, then wait until that artist starts playing, then go to the artist selection menu again, then scroll to track 99, then do all this crap again for about 4 more times until we get to what would be something like track 653 for 'The Orb' ... Then it plays one song from the orb then crashes. Beautiful.

Has anyone devised a plan to have an empeg mounted in the trunk of a car and yet still be able to effectively control it and see what's happening?

Greg

Best bet is probably the serial displays in the "Project: External VFD Display" thread in the Project forum, coupled with an IR repeater. Looks to be coming to some sort of conclusion in a not too remote future.

Or a computer+display up front with a VNC client/Tony's Empegface (see the Programming forum) connecting to the empeg over ethernet...

/Michael

I was just considering getting one for my wife's Mini. Thanks for the review. It seems to me that for a company still in business that they're a little lazy on fixing things (namely text display), but that's from a very remote point of view.

Forget the Phatbox. Get an iPod and Dension's Ice-Link. Control the iPod from the head unit (and steering controls if your vehicle has them), PLUS you still get to see iPod display if you mount it near the driver. Dension have mounting solutions as well. Similar in principle to the Phatbox head unit link.

They'll be at Macworld next week in San Francisco. I'll see if I can get additional information that may not be on their web site.

The remaining question is obviously going to be one of compatibility. I don't know the extent to which Dension support the OEM head unit range. If they promote this solution well enough, I don't think it will take long for it to become the "standard" MP3 car installation.

Bruno

Or a computer+display up front with a VNC client/Tony's Empegface (see the Programming forum) connecting to the empeg over ethernet...

I think the only reaason no one has ever done a setup like that is... If you don't have room to mount an empeg up front, how you gonna get a computer up there? And anyway, if you can put a computer display up front, then at that point you might as well have a full-blown computer running an MP3 player.

As mtempsch pointed to "Project: External VFD Display". V99 should have releases for 3 VFD displays of varying sizes very soon. These displays are summarized as follows (all are from noritake):

7000 model: fast, rs-232 connection, board is about 1/2 width of 1/2 din opening (approximating). Can purchase thru digikey.

3000 model: slow, rs-232 connection, board is almost din opening. Can purchase thru digikey.

K610A model: limited function but very small. TTL connection. Good for instrument cluster/near driver mounting. Can by RS-232 to TTL/12 V to 5V adapter and/or monitor from Foxtrotxray (see other thread).

Thanks to V99 & Foxtrotxray the remote displays should be a great solution for remote mounting the empeg. With an IR repeater or steering wheel remote control adapter & Mlord's hijack you should have an awesome remote mounted empeg. I used a universal underdash mounting kit to hang the empeg from underneath my rear deck lid in the trunk. When the remote display program(s) are available my empeg will be ready to fly

Nah. My wife would hate plugging in the iPod everytime, plus it doesn't really gain you that much. AFAICT, there's still no text display on the head unit. If there were, I could install it and hide it, not letting it be known that there's an iPod powering it at all.

Plugging in the iPod means dropping it into a cradle mounted in your car. No more difficult than putting the face onto an aftermarket HU.

What the iPod and Ice-Link buy you is the freedom/clarity of not using a tape-based adapter (not to mention some HU's don't have TAPE), nor using an FM transmitter, nor needing any silly cigrarette lighter adapters for power. Plus not having to touch the iPod to navigate your music.

It's got the Phatbox solution beat hands down. It's not comparable to the empeg with a true remote display, nor having one installed in your dash.

It's one step closer to what I consider the ultimate portable/car audio MP3 solution - a small portable unit that can be docked inside a regular-looking, in-dash, DIN-sized car dock. Perhaps with an alternate interface to connect via standard HU as mentioned above and with a home dock to match this can be made to provide the best of all worlds. Sell it all in a modular fashion. Dension's latest player is getting close, but it's not exactly what I'm after. I'm still looking for something that is as polished as the iPod (or Karma) when used on its own, and as polished as the empeg when docked.

Bruno

I don't think the PhatBox is so bad. It fills a need and is about as good as it can be given the interface limitations of OEM integration.

I don't know what you mean about the 99 limit. Mine just wraps back around. What happens if you keep going up?

A tip for faster navigating is to use the ff/rr scan buttons and then it will walk through the alphabet. When you get to the letter you want you can use the track up to get to the particular artist. But 700 artists is a lot given the inability to set up a hierarchical playlist structure. You might be happier if you limited yourself. I know, I know... the point of a HDD jukebox is that you don't have to limit yourself but life has tradeoffs. If you want OEM integration like your wife does and I do then the tradeoff may be only 20 gigs of music to keep the navigation managable.

I can find the artist/album I want using my steering wheel controls without taking my eyes of the road. In this way, it is superior to the empeg.

What I miss the most is the text display. (This is an OEM interface limitation. I don't know about your Touareg but other VW/Audi systems aren't CD-Text capable.) The PhatBox will "read" the track details but that disrupts the music and isn't nearly as convenient as reading it. But I was never really into all the geeky capabilities of the empeg. I just want an mp3 jukebox.

It [PhatBox] fills a need and is about as good as it can be given the interface limitations of OEM integration

Trust me it isn't. But then, an inferior product that has actually been taken to market has the advantage over a much better product that has been left to rot on the shelf for two years. If anyone gets the bright idea of dealing with the automotive industry, take my advice and don't bother.

Rob

I like the Ice-Link. I would definitely consider it as an alternative to the PhatBox if I were buying now. They have a nice looking mount for my Audi, too. The key factor would be how readable the display is with a quick glance from the normal driving position. I don't have an Ipod so I don't know. I'd use the mount that puts the Ipod on the other side of the center column.

In reply to:

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Trust me it isn't. But then, an inferior product that has actually been taken to market has the advantage over a much better product that has been left to rot on the shelf for two years. If anyone gets the bright idea of dealing with the automotive industry, take my advice and don't bother.

---

What would be a better interface? I'm not very creative.

I believe these are the limitations (at least for VW/Audi integration):

Only display is CD 1-6 and track 1-99.
Only control buttons are forward/back for track, disc, and scan plus a 3 state randomize control and "scan" button.

Tap it out with morse code?

The pictures on their web site seem to show cables hanging off the top and bottom of the iPod. Are these pictures inaccurate?

My brother was looking into getting one for his gf's car but they don't have a compatible one yet. The Ice-Link uses the headphone socket instead of the lineout for some bizarre reason. So the picture is accurate.

What would be a better interface? I'm not very creative.

Empeg/Rio designed a similar beast a while back. I imagine that's what he was referring to when he authoritatively said it wasn't the best interface, and made reference to something sitting on the shelf. More info here.

Doesn't appear that product ever saw the light of day...hence the slight bitterness with the auto industry.

Looks like I was a little mislead by their first product blurbs. You can use it with the TOP cable only, which provides the control interface as well as audio. The bottom cable in the picture is for charging - it's the connectorr that comes with the iPod and will attach to a firewire port on the Ice-Link somewhere.

I was under the impression they tapped into the bottom connection only, for everything. Having the connection at the top isn't as clean obviously and makes it one step beyond just dropping it into a cradle.

I'd be willing to bet they'll redesign this in a product revision. I'm sure they're going to get a lot of sales even at the rather steep price of $200.

Bruno

The trick with OEM interfaces is designing for the lowest common denominator - most OEM CD-changer interfaces don't support text transfer, just track and disc number (some don't even support a time count). You need to provide an intuitive interface for several hundred CDs using controls and feedback designed for 6 or maybe 10 CDs. The PhatBox had a good stab at it once they added voice feedback (without that, it was just too complex), but the stagnating Rio prototype had a better go in my opinion.

You could add text transfer support for those protocols that can handle it, at the expense of much-increased complexity (almost as many interface configurations as head-units!). Of course, you are still left with designing an interface that has to seem intuitive while only having track up/down and disc selection controls (either disc up/down or direct disc selection depending on the unit).

If OEM head units could be designed with proper HDD-player integration in mind, either as a DJ or more directly connected, the interface could be made much more user-friendly, but we are slow enough embracing MP3-CDs....

When voice recognition gets added, and you can just say the artist/album/playlist, then we will have the OEM-acceptable safe HMI solution!

I wish I could refute Rob's comments about dealing with the auto industry, but in this case I may just have to take the criticism!! Obviously, I will pretend I am the exception

Nick

Greetings!

I would still really like to be able to get a Camelot... I am willing to negotiate price...

If only I were in a position to sell!! The current price is not exactly being helped by production volumes!!

I am still optimistic that some real product will come out of all the hard work that has been put into this stuff. All the work the Cambridge guys have put into these prototypes gets a lot of appreciative noises and attention, but it is never an easy route from there to production in automotive OEMs, as Rob indicates..

In the meantime, if you knew where I lived, I would have to keep an eye on my car . It's no accident that the donor radio chassis chosen for the Camelots drops straight into my car! Official evaluation only, of course!

Nick

The current price is not exactly being helped by production volumes!!

Well, I have been known to be a bit insane in some regards... You see, the Camelot is sort of a "Holy Grail" to empeg collectors... (Yes, that bad joke was made intentionally.)

Edit: Oh, and I do have a vague idea where you live. Don't worry - you are an entire continent away... (You posted your region and country in one of your posts...)

> I was under the impression they tapped into the bottom connection only, for everything. Having the connection at the top isn't as clean obviously and makes it one step beyond just dropping it into a cradle.

I wonder how hard it would it be to rig the Karma's cradle for something similiar? I would think it would end up being a much better system that that since the cradle is already such a featured component.

Should Half_Geek be blue?

Should Half_Geek be blue?

No - I am not an empeg/Rio employee, although we have done a fair bit of work together. Maybe one day something cool will come of it!

Nick

At Macworld, Dension were showing an updated connection product for the current generation iPods. This new cable/cradle uses only the bottom connection, making the install a lot cleaner. You just drop the iPod into its car cradle and you're done. I don't know if it's up on their site yet nor when the updated product will be released.

I did find out that their product specifically links between the iPod and a SONY changer interface only. To adapt to other head unit makes and models (including OEM variants) they use an additional module from another company (that converts SONY to XYZ). That's why you may find support for one OEM unit but not another on their website right now.

Bruno