Network and server advice?

Posted by: Dignan

Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 14:21

Free stuff is great. As has happened several times in the past, I've inherited some equipment from my father's office. This time it's an old Dell Poweredge 6300 server. Its current configuration, I believe, is two 400MHz P3's and 512MB of RAM. There's also a RAID totalling 80GB of storage in addition to a 9GB drive.

This is all speculation, though. I'm not quite sure what exactly is in here. That's my first question: is there a program I can get that will give me a good amount of info on a system? I think I've seen sites that do this as well.

So what do I need to know to start using this machine? I plan on using it as a file server, possibly a grunt-work machine for video stuff (would that work okay on a server?), may be interested in upgrading the components, and it runs NT 4.0. Where should I start? What other things should I think about?

Thanks for helping.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 14:28

Got to Dell's support site and punch in the service tag number for that computer, you'll get all the details. Very useful, that feature.

If you install new software onto the thing (I suggest Windows 2000 Server), make sure to use that same support site to grab all the driver downloads and such that are specific to that PC's components.

Something reasonably important to download is the management software for that RAID controller. It will let you poke around and look at the RAID configuration.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 14:39

Excellent suggestions. Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is Win2K Server? What I mean is, what makes it "Server"? And in terms of simply using it, will I notice a difference between normal Windows 2000 which I use on my desktop? These are probably dumb questions but I'm curious

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 14:51

2K server has got a couple of features that make it useful as a server, for instance, coming with Terminal Services built-in. I think it also supports dual-processor, don't recall if 2k professional does or not. Didn't realize you were planning on using this box as a desktop, I thought you were going to make it some kind of a server.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 14:57

I am, I was just wondering what made it an operating system designed for a server. Those explanations make sense.

But can I use it to do certain tasks and free up my machine? For instance, I've been converting video files to a format suitable for my Archos MP3 player using Virtualdub. I don't really care how long it takes for the task to complete, but if it's running on my desktop I don't have a lot of processor left for anything else. I assume that just because it's a server that doesn't mean it can't do tasks like this. Is that correct?

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 15:06

Yeah, Server can do anything the regular Windows version can do, it's just got more features built-in.

Posted by: talmou

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 15:11

Windows 2000 Professional - 2 CPUs
Windows 2000 Server - 4
Windows 2000 Advanced Server - 8
Windows 2000 Datacenter server - 16-32

There is a comparison here

If the machine already has windows installed you can use Balarc Advisor to list the hardware.

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 18:02

what makes it "Server"?
Some of the most notible differences are:

- IIS in server allows you to create multiple websites, ftp sites, and virtual smtp servers - whereas w2k pro just lets you create 1 website.

- It comes with the DNS service which lets you run your own dns server.

- Like Tony said, it comes with Terminal Services in remote administration mode that will allow in addition to the console session up to 2 concurrent terminal service connections (or remote desktop connections) by default.

- It comes with the routing and remote access service for setting up VPNs, etc.

- It comes with a telnet server, snmp service, and other things that make it more server like.

- It's required if you want to run SQL server 2000 Standard or Enterprise.

Those are just off the top of my head - so that list is by no means all-inclusive. Just most of the biggies.

- trs

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 18:09

Oo, I remember one. It can be configured as a domain controller in a Windows-centric network. I don't think you can do that with Win2k pro.

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 19:03

One other thing (not really applicable since you've got a RAID controller): you can use W2k Server with RAID via software. It'll do RAID 0 (striping/spanning - makes two disks look like one), 1 (mirroring - redundant drives with 2 disks), and 5 (strip set with parity - redundant drives with 3 or more disks).

Your RAID controller will do this for you, and faster too, but I thought I'd chime in.

-Zeke

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 19:11

We've discussed this before on the BBS.... If you're going to do RAID, whatever you do, it needs to be with a hardware controller. Windows software-based RAID is bad news, sewiouswy.

But you have a good point that this is another feature that is 2k-server-specific.

Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 20:22

I agree, but I thought I'd bring it up. It has its place.

-Zeke

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 20:35

Oo, I remember one. It can be configured as a domain controller
Ah yes, of course - the domain controller. A second W2k server can act as a backup domain controller as well. There's also Active Directory... I'm not positive, though that server is required to deploy Active Directory, but I would think it is.

- trs

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 01/04/2004 21:37

Windows 2000 Professional - 2 CPUs
Windows 2000 Server - 4
Windows 2000 Advanced Server - 8
Windows 2000 Datacenter server - 16-32
Thanks for the rundown! And thanks to everyone else for the info. I'll have to study up.

I haven't hooked the thing up yet, but I thought I'd offer the specs based on what I found after opening it up and looking at some jumper settings. It currently has two of the 4 processor slots occupied with 500MHz P3 Xeons. If I wanted to max this out I don't suppose it would be much of a problem, though it's tough to find these processors anymore. By the time I have the money, this guy might not have his stock available anymore.

Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out how much RAM is in it. 4 of the 16 slots are occupied, but I don't know how much each stick is. So it's safe to say that there's either 512MB or 1GB.

The other unfortunate thing is that nobody seems to know where the key is, and without it I can't unlock the drive bays to even see what's in there, let alone add or replace anything.

Well, I can't wait to get started setting this thing up.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 02/04/2004 09:25

Sorry to bring this up again, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could find a reliable source for these processors (and/or memory). I've exhausted all the usual sources I use (Pricegrabber, Pricewatch, Newegg, Froogle, ebay, etc.) and can't really find anything. I found one site but it had a terrible listing with no information, and only a black and white drawing that didn't look like the processors I have.

On most of these sites the problem was that they don't list processors this slow anymore

Posted by: tman

Re: Network and server advice? - 02/04/2004 09:29

I'm afraid it's actually worse than that. You're supposed to only use certain CPU steppings with each other. There is/was a table on the Intel site which told you which ones were compatible with each other. If you start mixing CPU speeds or steppings then interesting things may start to happen as things go out of sync.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 02/04/2004 09:33

Well, I was looking at ones with the same speed (and came out of other Poweredge 6300 servers), but I don't know about the steppings. I don't think there was much variation among the ones I was looking at. However I don't know what the description in the auction I linked above means. All it says is:This is multiple items auction. You can buy one or all. All Processors are working pull from Dell Poweredge 6300. It will work with PE 6350 also. The picture is one of them.

It is 500/100/1MB SL3DA.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 02/04/2004 10:03

If you look at this Intel page:

http://processorfinder.intel.com

You will see the list of 500Mhz Xeons. The processors he is selling have a spec number of SL3DA, which tells us they are C0 stepping with 1024K caches.

You need to find out what the ones in your box are. The best way is to open the box and read the details off of the processors. Alternatively you can download the Intel processor ID tool from their website.

Somewhere on the Intel site there will be a document detailing whether you can combine stepping C0 and B0, but I can't find it at the moment. I'm pretty sure you have to match the cache sizes.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 02/04/2004 10:12

Found the document that details stepping combinations:

http://developer.intel.com/design/pentiumiii/xeon/specupdt/24446038.pdf

Posted by: drakino

Re: Network and server advice? - 03/04/2004 11:55

Dell doesn't support mixed steppings in their servers beyond the recommendations of Intel? Ouch...

Proliant servers have specific portions of their firmware that can deal with mixed processor steppings, and on the Xeon lines, mixed speeds too. I figured that was a standard feature of server class boxes out there, guess not...

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 03/04/2004 15:36

Dell doesn't support mixed steppings in their servers beyond the recommendations of Intel?

Where did you see that ? Not that it would surprise me, as I understand it Dell's motherboards are supplied by Intel anyway.

Must get round to climbing to the top of the garage and installing the second processor in my Dell PE2200 one day...

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 04/04/2004 09:34

Thanks a bunch for those links, Andy. I'm out of town at the moment, but when I get back home this evening I'll check the markings on my CPUs and see what I have. I'm less scared now, though, because searching for the exact ID yields a whole lot more options. There are several auctions on ebay for 2 of those CPUs for $55. Not too bad IMO.

I have another problem that I don't know how to deal with, though. There's a locking mechanism on the front of the machine to prevent the removal of the hard drives. The problem is that my office seems to have lost the key with the lock in the locked position. The machine is at least 4 years old, so they have no idea where the key would have shifted to. What should I do?

Posted by: drakino

Re: Network and server advice? - 04/04/2004 10:10

There's a locking mechanism on the front of the machine to prevent the removal of the hard drives. The problem is that my office seems to have lost the key with the lock in the locked position.

Call a locksmith to unlock it. It's likely that if you don't have a single key, or a tag that came with the keys, Dell can't get you a replacement key that would work. That is how it is with HP anyhow, loose a key, and the ID tag the key came with, and we can't order a spare key. We always recommend a true locksmith over do it yourself, since many of our locks go into metal and would bend the case if forced too much.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 04/04/2004 15:13

Thanks, if they don't find the key this week I'll see about that.

Here's the info from one of my CPUs:
500/100/512 S2
Y9130289-0173 IRELAND
SL2XU

I'm disappointed. I thought I'd have the 1024K cache. Oh well. I've bid on two more of these and we'll see how it works out. When I get the machine connected to the internet I'll download Belarc Advisor. Can that tell me what type of RAM I have so I can get more or the same kind?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 08:57

I know I'm going to regret asking, but could someone suggest a Linux server OS? I'd like to know if there's a free server version of one of the distros. I was able to find the trial version of Win2003 Server, but no "trial" versions of it or Win2K server.

But if someone knows how to turn the trial version into a "trial" version, I'd appreciate a PM. I'd also like to know how to eliminate some of the highly annoying security "features." Getting a warning window for every single task I seem to try to do is very obnoxious.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 09:29

There's no difference between a Linux server and a Linux workstation other than what software you're running on it. There are a few companies that sell Linux server distros, but that's basically just Linux plus some number of commercial applications, which you probably don't need.

Basically any Linux distro will have enough software to be a server. It's all about configuration. As for what ones might have some sort of server configuration built in, I don't know.

Posted by: robricc

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 09:31

As for what ones might have some sort of server configuration built in, I don't know.
I'm pretty sure Mandrake does.

Posted by: frog51

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 09:49

Yup - RedHat, Mandrake, Suse and others give you the option. The major differences are that the server install usually installs the server components of various apps and the workstation has a more limited set, but in reality both install far too much by default.

You'd be better off deciding what you need and doing a custom install, picking each specific app you need.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 10:02

Yeah, I had checked out Suse because I'd heard it was a good one for folks visiting from Windows land, and saw that they had some server releases for hundreds of dollars so I assumed there was a lot more to it.

Basically the one concern I had was whether or not a certain distro would support my hardware. From the 4 processors (I won two more on ebay) to the Dell SCSI controller (I'm pretty sure it's Dell branded), to all the other weird server hardware.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 10:19

It's possible that one distribution might handle the setup better than another, but, basically, if it works in Linux at all, it'll work with any distribution. The only difference between the distributions is how stuff is configured and where it's located, really. All the software is the same. (There might also be version differences, but any recent ones will be close enough to each other.)

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 10:42

In that case, I have two case, which distro has the best setup instructions and instructions in general for a complete Linux newbie who is installing on a reformatted drive?

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 11:18

Basically the one concern I had was whether or not a certain distro would support my hardware. From the 4 processors...
The support for multiple processors lives in the kernel, not in your linux distro. Basically, you're either going to have to find an already compiled kernel that supports your hardware with SMP (Symmetric Multi-Processors) enabled, or you'll need to compile your own kernel to make use of the multiple procs.

Here's some more info

- trs

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 12:33

Oh joy, this is already getting more and more complicated. I'm sorry, but I'm not at the kernel building stage yet. If someone could point me to something I can use, I'd be grateful. I wasn't really expecting to trudge through anything other than a basic distro installation...

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 12:42

It's not as complicated as people make out. It's just running a configuration utility and then typing "make bzImage", which the configuration utility will actually tell you to do. That being said, it's not unlikely that a distro will include an SMP kernel. I know RedHat did. Maybe Fedora will. Mandrake 10 specifically claims it has SMP support.

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 13:17

Yeah, it really isn't a hard thing to do - it can just be a little time consuming. But, if a distro you want to use doesn't have a SMP enabled kernel for you to use, more than likely the kernel you go with in the distro will have the config file to go with it. You can then just change that config file to include smp support and re-compile your kernel form that config. More than likely any distro you go with will also have a step-by-step on how to best config and compile the kernel.

- trs

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 15:55

Is there a free version of Mandrake? I don't want to join this club thing.

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 23:06

A quick search for Mandrake ISO resulted in this:

http://tux.cprm.net/pub/Mandrake/iso/

also http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/mirrors/Mandrake-iso/i586/

also http://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake-iso/i586/

That's for 10.0, though. There were much more for older versions.

- trs

Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 23:19

Basically the one concern I had was whether or not a certain distro would support my hardware.
If you're not running x86, this might be a concern. Otherwise, it's probably just a matter of configuration. One quick way to figure out what your machine needs in terms of configuration hardware-wise, is to pop in a Knoppix CD, which is widely regarded as being one of, if not the best for detecting and configuring hardware, take a look at the modules it loads, and poke around through /proc. Then it's a pretty simple thing to duplicate that set-up with any other distro. YMMV, of course.

Posted by: ricin

Re: Network and server advice? - 07/04/2004 23:49

Gentoo is extremely well documented. A lot of people would argue it's not for beginners, but I think if you can follow instructions and already have a fair grasp of computers in general, you shouldn't have a problem with it. Once it's installed it is a very admin friendly distro.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 07:15

Thanks, guys. I think I'm going to try Mandrake. I liked the screenshots and so far they're the only one I've seen with explicit support for multiple processors. I just don't feel like complicating this any more than I have to.

Now I face a different problem. I used a boot disk to remove the partition from the OS drive of the server. I wasnted to start from scratch, since there werre already two versions of NT4.0 and a trial for 2003. I'm not sure how to get the drive formatted and start installing a new OS, because I don't know how I'll boot from the CD since the CD is SCSI and doesn't appear as a boot option in the system setup. Any ideas?

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 10:09

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 10:56

Thanks, but aren't those instructions for just making a boot floppy? My problem is that I don't know how to install Linux with an unformatted drive, a floppy disk, and an unbootable SCSI CDROM.

Posted by: Roger

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 11:03

The boot floppy will load the installation program from the CD-ROM drive, which will walk you through the process of formatting the hard disk and installing the operating system.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 11:06

For SCSI drives too? Strange. The one I made tried to star the CDROM but failed. I assumed it was because it was SCSI and the controller drivers weren't there.

Posted by: peter

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 11:21

I assumed it was because it was SCSI and the controller drivers weren't there.
Is it an unusual SCSI controller? I'm tempted to say "here's a nickel, kid, buy yourself a real CD-ROM drive"...

Peter

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 11:31

Possibly, it is a Dell, after all

This might be the reason that, when I opened the drive bay cover, there was a spare CDROM simply floating around unmounted and disconnected

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 15:58

Is it an unusual SCSI controller?
Now that I'm home, I'm able to look inside the machine. It appears to be an onboard SCSI controller. There are no normal IDE hard drive connectors on the board.

What should I do?

Posted by: trs24

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 16:26

Do you have other options to choose from in the "D:\images\" folder? The problem might be that the cdrom.img you chose just doesn't have support for your scsi controller. I've never installed Mandrake - but on my last install of Slackware, I had to choose a boot image that supported the adaptec scsi controller. Look in that directory and see what the other .img options are. It looks like there might be a "D:\images\alternatives" dir from what I can tell from older Mandrake documentation.

- trs

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 08/04/2004 22:20

I ended up back at bootdisk.com after a Google search. They have instructions there on how to boot with SCSI CDROM support. I followed the steps and I can use the CDROM now.

The Mandrake installation ISOs will be downloaded by tomorrow. Now I'm ready to try and start the installation. Wish me luck!

Thanks for everyone's help again.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 09/04/2004 02:46

They have instructions there on how to boot with SCSI CDROM support. I followed the steps and I can use the CDROM now.

That is all about how to get access to your SCSI CDROM when booting from a DOS boot floppy disk. I don't think that is going to help you much.

You are going to need to boot from a Linux boot floppy disk, which will be provided as part of the Mandrake install. The instructions I posted the other day show how to create the Linux boot floppy disk.

You need to find a Mandrake boot floppy image that supports your SCSI card. I would be amazed if the standard Madrake boot floppy didn't support your SCSI card. What Dell server is it we are talking about?

When I posted the details about creating a Mandrake boot floppy before you said "The one I made tried to star the CDROM but failed." can you give us some details on what you mean by "it tried to start the CDROM but failed" ?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 09/04/2004 06:41

Sorry about that. I didn't realize what you were instructing in your post. That all makes sense.

I was talking about the first DOS boot disk I made from bootdisk.com that simply said it failed to start the CDROM, but that was for the above stated reasons of not having SCSI capability.

Looking at the URL in your post, I see it was for Mandrake 9.0. I assume it will, but will the same instructions carry over to 10?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 09/04/2004 13:08

I've got another problem. I'm not sure if I got screwed, fooled, or simply should have been more inquisitive, but I received the result of this auction in the mail today, and it didn't come with heatsinks like I expected.

To the seller's credit, neither the picture nor the auction title mention heatsinks.

However, to my credit, the description mentions a slightly bent "heatsink." This leads me to believe that the seller might not have known all that much about these processors, because it is in fact the edge of the metal side of the processor that is slightly bent, which worries much more than a bent heatsink.

*edit*
I decided that regardless of the result of contacting the seller, the likelyhood that he'd have the heatsinks when they weren't included with this auction would be very low. So I went ahead and contacted the Dell spare parts department, and they actually had heatsinks in stock for $9 a piece. What the hell, I just went and ordered them.

Thanks for letting me spout off a little

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 09/04/2004 22:50

From http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/pub/linux/distributions/mandrake/9.0/i586/INSTALL.txt

" 3. Make a boot floppy with Windows

If your computer cannot boot from the CDROM and previous methods do
not work, you must make a boot floppy under Windows as follows:

* insert the CDROM, then open the icon "My Computer", right click on
the CDROM drive icon and select "Open"
* go into the "dosutils" directory and double-click on the
"rawwritewin" icon
* insert a blank floppy in the floppy drive
* select "D:\images\cdrom.img" in the "Image File" field (assuming
that your CDROM drive is "D:", otherwise replace "D:" as needed)
* select "A:" in the "Floppy Drive" field then click on "Write".

To begin the installation:

* insert the CDROM in the drive, as well as the boot floppy, then
* restart the computer."
This worked perfectly up to where the instructions left off. During the boot I even saw the SCSI adapter recognized, and the CDROM drive listed.

But then I get into the installation and I get "No CDROM device found."

Why? At the very end of the boot (the portion I'm assuming was on the floppy - I hadn't seen the messages before), it definitely said that a boot disk was in the CDROM drive.

I've managed to find someone else's description of what's in this machine, based on a Google search for what I thought the drive number was. Here's the info: Hardware details: Dell PowerEdge 6300/500 , 2G memory, 4 Xeon 500
processors. The SCSI subsystem is as follows (from dmesg):

SCSI subsystem driver Revision: 1.00
Red Hat/Adaptec aacraid driver, Oct 7 2002
aacraid:Warning: FSA time base appears invalid [0x5].
AAC0: kernel 1.1.4 build 1922
AAC0: monitor 1.1.4 build 1922
AAC0: bios 1.1.0 build 1922
AAC0: serial 00
scsi0 : percraid
Vendor: DELL Model: PERCRAID RAID5 Rev: V1.0
Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02
scsi1 : Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8
<Adaptec aic7890/91 Ultra2 SCSI adapter>
aic7890/91: Ultra2 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs

scsi2 : Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8
<Adaptec aic7890/91 Ultra2 SCSI adapter>
aic7890/91: Ultra2 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs

scsi3 : Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8
<Adaptec aic7860 Ultra SCSI adapter>
aic7860: Ultra Single Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 3/253 SCBs

Vendor: NEC Model: CD-ROM DRIVE:465 Rev: 1.25
Type: CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02
(scsi3:A:5): 20.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15)
I have the option of using a floppy with the drivers for the CD drive, but considering it says it wasn't even found, and I couldn't find the drivers online anyway, I have no idea what to do.

Thanks for any help.

Posted by: Dignan

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 12:22

Very puzzling. It clearly has found the CD drive sucessfully.

mounting /dev/fd0 on /tmp/floppy as type ext2
* mount failed: Invalid argument

These line suggest that what is actually happening is that it is failing to mount the file system on the floppy for some reason.

The way these Linux install boot floppies work is that they boot a Linux kernel from the boot blocks on the floppy, probe for all the hardware they need and then mount a file system from the floppy with the data that they need.

It looks like this mount of the file system from the floppy is failing (unless the log output is misleading and it is a mount that it hasn't mentioned that is failing).

Does the Mandrake install offer any other debug output on the other virtual consoles ? (you can switch virtual consoles by pressing Alt and one of the function keys, with a different virtual console on each function key).

I guess if the floppy mount really is failing you could have one of:
- dodgy floppy disk
- dodgy floppy disk drive
- a combination of floppy disk drives (I have a couple of drives that can't read disks written by each other)
- something else entirely

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 12:40

That's strange. So you mean even though the floppy drive is being read at one point (otherwise I'd never have gotten to the CD installation part), it's having problems later? I'll try bringing some floppies home from work (I don't have any at home), and try again.

So it's not that it can't find drivers on the disk I've got in the drive? In the regular screen, during that log point, I think I'm getting something about a Linux type ext2 thing not being found (sorry, working from memory at the moment).

A few minutes ago, I was able to find all sorts of linux drivers and BIOS updates for my server on Dell's site. That will help.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 12:46

Initially, it uses the BIOS to access the floppy. Later, it tries to access it directly. I'm not quite sure why it's trying to mount the floppy, though. It ought to be mounting the CD. Regardless, it seems to be trying. Try the BIOS updates. That might help. Any drivers on Dell's site are not going to help, as you'll have no way to insert them during install.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 13:06

So the error message I'm getting on the installation screen is correct (it can't find the drivers), but the reason is because it can't see the floppy to look for them? Well, we'll see how the new floppies work.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 13:21

So the error message I'm getting on the installation screen is correct (it can't find the drivers), but the reason is because it can't see the floppy to look for them?

That can't be the whole story. The drivers for the SCSI card and CDROM are compiled into the Linux kernel that the install floppy is booting from.

It clearly does have the drivers for the SCSI card and CDROM, because it is recognising them correctly.

Try some other floppies and/or try writing them on a different machine. Failing that try the BIOS updates.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 13:24

That could happen for a number of reasons. The disk could be bad beyond a particular point or the drive could have problems reading it beyond a particular point.

As Bitt pointed out it could also be down to the different way Linux is accessing the disk when it is mounting the floppy.

Do you have another floppy drive you could plug in to try ?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 16:21

Well, I tried creating the boot disk using a brand new floppy, and the exact same thing is happening. I don't think it's the drive, either. It's saying that it doesn't recognize the CDROM before those mounting lines. Here's how it's looking to me between the installation (inst) screen and the log screen:

log: * looking for ide media
* looking for scsi media
* SCSI/2: sr0 is a NEC CD-ROM DRIVE:465
* looking for Compaq Smart Array media
* looking for DAC960
* unsetting automatic

inst: No CDROM device found. Ok [<-button. I press enter]
inst: Please insert the Additional Drivers floppy. Ok. [<-button. I press enter]

log: * have to insmod floppy
* needs floppy
* ...succeeded floppy
* /dev/fd0 type: H1440
* ...track: 0
* mounting /dev/fd0 on /tmp/floppy as type ext2
* mount failed: Invalid argument

inst: Floppy is not a Linus ext2 floppy in first
floppy drive.
Retry?

So that's where I'm able to get to. Is that any more usefull info?

*edit*
oh yeah, I also updated the BIOS. it went smoothly but now all the other components are complaining about out of date BIOSs. Some of them I can't find and some need to be run from inside Windows!

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 16:34

You are using rawrite or whatever to generate the disks, and not just copying one big file onto it, right?

I'd have to say that if is notices the CD-ROM drive (sr0 is a NEC CD-ROM DRIVE:465) but then claims that it can't find it (No CDROM device found), then the installation is hosed. You shouldn't need further drivers. It sees all it needs to see. Maybe the CDROM is screwed up -- the media, that is, not the drive, although that could be a potential issue, too.

Is this Mandrake 9? And you're creting the CDROM properly, too, and not just copying one big image file onto a Joliet disk, right?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 12/04/2004 17:18

I do believe I did everything correctly. I burned the CDs as images in Nero (didn't extract then burn), and I used the resulting disk 1 to create the boot disk using rawritewin.exe as per Andy's instructions.

One last thing: during the bootup, it goes through the various SCSI boot processes. There appears to be a problem. It keeps saying "SCSI BIOS Not installed!" This is odd since I can see it going through each SCSI controller and seeing what is connected to it. I think there's only two: one onboard for the CDROM and one card for the hard disk array.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 01:34

* looking for ide media
* looking for scsi media
* SCSI/2: sr0 is a NEC CD-ROM DRIVE:465
* looking for Compaq Smart Array media
* looking for DAC960
* unsetting automatic

inst: No CDROM device found. Ok [<-button. I press enter]

Very odd, as the "SCSI/2: sr0 is a NEC CD-ROM DRIVE:465" line clearly shows it found a SCSI CD-ROM.

Ignoring that oddity for the moment, lets look at the rest.

inst: Please insert the Additional Drivers floppy. Ok. [<-button. I press enter]

Did you do what it asked and insert an "Additional Drivers floppy" ? I'm guessing you didn't because I can't find any mention of an additional drivers floppy in the docs for the Mandrake install.

log: * have to insmod floppy
* needs floppy
* ...succeeded floppy
* /dev/fd0 type: H1440
* ...track: 0
* mounting /dev/fd0 on /tmp/floppy as type ext2
* mount failed: Invalid argument

I have found some people with the same problem as you:

http://www.linuxforum.com/forums/index.php?s=3c475a04f3e9530bea571977ffd5691c&showtopic=55703&st=0&#entry254277
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=16&t=1867

But alas with no solution.

Looking at the Mandrake boot images there is one called cdrom-changedisk.img which I can't see mentioned in any docs. Perhaps this is the floppy image it is expecting to find on the additional floppy ?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 06:37

Yeah, as you guessed, I wasn't putting a second disk into the drive when it asked me for it, because (as you thought), I have no idea what disk they're talking about

I did try using some disks made from some places on the Dell downloads section, but they didn't help.

I'll take a look at the other disk images in the dosutils tonight.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 19:05

Okay, tried making a floppy from the cdrom-changedisk image, but got the same error when I tried using it at the point we thought:

inst: Floppy is not a Linus ext2 floppy in first
floppy drive.
Retry?

I've also not joined the Mandrake community thing, so I can't ask them for support. I'm suprised that others have run into the same problems, but not found a solution.

By the way, is Red Hat difficult for newbies to use? There seems to be a lot of talk on this Dell support page about RH9. I think this machine is officially supported for RH9.

Posted by: rompel

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 21:26

Okay, tried making a floppy from the cdrom-changedisk image, but got the same error when I tried using it at the point we thought:
The floppy problem is easy: it is expecting a floppy with an ext2 filesystem containing additional drivers. You are feeding it a boot disk (no filesystem). It doesn't matter which boot disk you feed it, it isn't going to work. Moreover, it already sees your CD-ROM drive, so it isn't a question of loading an additional driver.

The real problem is why it isn't able to read your CD-ROM. My WAG is that the installer isn't creating the proper symbolic link for /dev/cdrom. If this is the case, it's probably fixable. The magic command is "ln -sf /dev/sr0 /dev/cdrom". The trick is finding a way to issue the command. I've never used Mandrake, but I would hope that they would open up a root shell on a spare virtual console during the install. To switch VCs, you use ALT+F1, ALT+F2, etc.--unless you're in X, in which case it's CTRL+ALT+F1, etc. You're looking for either a shell prompt (probably ending in "#" to indicate a root shell) or a login prompt (login as root, shouldn't need a password).

But before going through all of that, couldn't you just hook up a IDE CD-ROM drive long enough to do the install?

--John

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 21:41

But before going through all of that, couldn't you just hook up a IDE CD-ROM drive long enough to do the install?
I tried, but there is no IDE connector on the motherboard

Unless I'm seriously missing something. I looked around as much as possible before I started choking on the horrible black dust this machine picked up in my dad's office over the last 5 years

I'll see what I can do about your suggestion.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 21:51

Sorry, I couldn't find a way to get to a shell. Alt+F1 is the graphic installation screen, Alt+F2 is a black screen with a cursor, but I tried typing your command in and nothing happened. Alt+F3 is the log, and Alt+F4 (according to the graphinc install screen), is the kernel msg. All but F2 are labelled on the graphic install screen, actually. I tried others but they didn't do anything.

Posted by: rompel

Re: Network and server advice? - 13/04/2004 23:25

Sorry, I couldn't find a way to get to a shell.
<grumble>

I should have expected as much. I went through a similar thing many years ago trying to install Red Hat. I gave up and switched to Debian which not only gave me access to a shell but already had the CD-ROM driver I needed (thus making the existence of a shell moot).

--John

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 03:14

By the way, is Red Hat difficult for newbies to use? There seems to be a lot of talk on this Dell support page about RH9. I think this machine is officially supported for RH9.

I have never used Mandrake, so I don't know if it is any easier to use than Red Hat for newbies. It is based on Red Hat though.

The problem with RH9 is that it isn't supported any more. Red Hat took the (in my opinion as a long standing paying customer of theirs) the decision to basically withdraw from the workstation/low end server market.

They have dropped support for RH 7.x, 8.0 and 9.0 completely. No more security updates, nothing. They expect people to move to Red Hat Enterprise, which I probably would if they actually provided an upgrade mechanism, idiots.

Any way, rant over. Suffice it to say RH9 is probably not a good choice for the future.

Red Hat "replaced" RH9 with Fedora http://fedora.redhat.com/ but it isn't a sensible replacement if you just want to install a server and run it on the same version for years, because they aren't planning on releasing security updates for very long after each release.

Posted by: andy

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 03:34

I went through a similar thing many years ago trying to install Red Hat.

The Red Hat installer has had a shell prompt for as long as I can remember, definitely since 7.1:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-7.1-Manual/install-guide/ch-guimode.html#S2-GUIMODE-VIRTUAL-CONSOLES

I'd be amazed if the Mandrake installer didn't have one too (unless it only has one in "expert" mode or something).

Posted by: rompel

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 04:42

The Red Hat installer has had a shell prompt for as long as I can remember, definitely since 7.1:
I don't remember which version of Red Hat I tried, but I'm sure it was before 7.1. I know I ended up installing Debian 1.3 "bo" which puts it in a 1997-1998 timeframe. Anyway, it was quite a while ago and I'm afraid my memory is a bit fuzzy beyond the fact that I couldn't get my CD-ROM to work under the Red Hat installer and I ended up with Debian instead.

Posted by: ashmoore

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 06:38

I have used Redhat for many moons, from around v2 or v3ish. They have always made life interesting with their choices.
Mandrake seem to have the challenge of actually staying in business.
Both of which decided my change to Suse. The best part of suse for me is that you can still get updates via yast (the suse version of RHN) for free on as many systems as you want. No registrations, nothing.
The downside to suse is that they do not release ISOs, you end up with either a network install or buying the product.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 09:35

The downside to suse is that they do not release ISOs, you end up with either a network install or buying the product.
That's why I didn't end up with them.

I do have an expert mode as a choice at the first install screen. Tonight I'll see if I can access the shell through that. What's different in the expert mode? I'm definitely no expert, so I was wary of choosing that option.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 10:56

Mandrake seem to have the challenge of actually staying in business.
I read that they're about to come out of bankruptcy and actually posted a profitable quarter. Hope it'll last.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 16:06

if there is a shell prompt in expert mode, I can't see it. Up until the point I'm able to reach in either mode, there isn't a whole lot of difference between them. Grr.

Does anyone know if there are ISO ditros of Suse at least for download?

Posted by: belezeebub

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 16:34

The Key is hidden under the dell logo on the front of the computer push in on the logo and it is a small door with the key.

Posted by: belezeebub

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 16:37

Why, 2 processors are more then enough juice for what you are using it for, adding more of them once make it any faster and be warned Xeon processors are NOT ment for mulit-media they are number crunchers and file servers not game machines and there is very little you can do to change it.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 18:14

What are multiple processors useful for? Oh this definitely won't be used as a gaming machine. Earlier in the thread I said what I'd be using it for: file serving and possibly working on labor-intensive tasks like video conversion (simply to be able to use my desktop while it's going on).

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Network and server advice? - 14/04/2004 18:19

The Key is hidden under the dell logo on the front of the computer push in on the logo and it is a small door with the key.
That would be very cool (and handy), but I'm not sure we're talking about the same machines here. Once I started bending the metal on the logo, I took the front bezel off and that's all it is, a logo. I took it off to bend the metal back out, so I'm sure there's no key under there.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Network and server advice? - 15/04/2004 04:52

Xeon processors are NOT ment for mulit-media they are number crunchers and file servers not game machines and there is very little you can do to change it.

Intel propaganda, and nothing more.

Pentium 3 and Pentium 3 Xeon DP Difference:
Slot/Socket type

Pentium 3 and Pentiom 3 Xeon MP Differences:
Slot/Socket type
L2 Cache sizes
A slightly larger CPU die to accommodate the 4 processor support

Pentium 4 and Xeon DP differences:
Socket type
Minor transistor differences to enable dual processing

Pentium 4 and Xeon MP differences:
Socket type
A slightly larger CPU die to accommodate the 4 processor support
Support for on die L3 cache

There are no differences that exist that make a Xeon a worse gaming processor, or multimedia processor. The Xeons now have the exact same SSE 2 stuff and such, because for all intensive purposes, they are the same as Pentium 4. In fact, Pentium 4 chips would work fine in a dual processor configuration, if Intel enabled them to do so. No extra transistors would need to be created. Just a few flipped. Xeons actually are faster in about everything when dealing with the MP chips, due to the L3 cache.

Oh, Xeon DP = dual processor capable. Aka, the exact same chip Intel sells to consumers, except with a Xeon name to justify charging hundreds more.
MP = multi processor capable. These go into the high end x86 servers. Intel specs only support 4 processors on a bus. 8 processor systems use a very complex chipset to create two processor busses (very difficult in the Intel world, very commonplace in everyone elses CPU worlds, including Apple with the G5 and AMD with their Athlon chips).

Network and server advice?