Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ?

Posted by: BartDG

Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 18:24

Hi all !

I've been using Eudora for a very long time (8 years or so). Basically, I've never used a different email client, not even outlook.

However, I've migrated to Firefox a couple of months ago, and since I'm so happy with that upgrade, I'd like to do the same now with my email client.

There is an underlieing reason too : next year I would like to start using Linux, and since both Firefox and Thunderbird exist on windows AND Linux, this would mean that I would be able to use the same software on both OS'es.

First, I'd like to say that I have NO problems setting up accounts and stuff, and getting TB to run properly. That works just fine. I just would like to see some things different, and I'm sure they're changeable, I just can't figure out how myself.

1) I've made a habit of installing all my stuff on my D-drive, never on my C-drive. This is because I reformat and reinstall pretty often (every 3-4 months), and this saves me a lot of time.

With Eudora this was easy : I put it on the d-drive, and I didn't even have to re-install it when I had just formatted my c drive. Making a new shortcut to the .exe was enough. Eudora works just fine and doesn't clutter the registry.
My setup is now like this :
d:\eudora (where all the mail is stored too)
d:\eudora\attach (for all the attachments)
and a couple of other Eudora subdirectories that aren't important here. The idea is that EVERYTHING is in the d:\eudora directory, which make this email stuff very easy to manage.

Now, with TB, things are a bit different. For one, even if I tell it it has to install into d:\thunderbird, it STILL insists on using c:\documents and settings\name\thunderbird\xxxxxx as the directory in which the mail is stored. Strange. Why is that?

1) I've found out that via the TB profiles, I can create a new profile, in which I can tell it where it should store it's mail. (in this case d:\TBmail). However, it still creates a default profile on c:\documents and settings\... . Isn't there a way of telling TB to immediately install onto the d drive, and leave the c drive completely alone ?

2) What's with these profiles anyway ? What are they for ? The first time I ever heard of those was with Firefox, but I never had to use them. What's their purpose ? I assume it's because multiple users would each have "their" own version of the browser/email client. (is this a Linux thing ?)
If I create several profiles, how can I switch from one to the next ? Do I always have to use the thunderbird.exe -p option ?
I've noticed that I can delete that default profile on my c-drive. But even when I delete those there are still 2 files left on my c: (profiles.ini and registry.dat) Can I delete those files safely (and that thunderbird directory too), so that my c drive would become completely "thunderbird-free"?

3) Those "local folders" in TB ? What's with those?? What's their use ??
It seems that TB looks at these as if they were an account too ?? (because they look almost exactly the same as my manually configuered account - settings and lay-out) And it seems that these "local folders" have copied my account settings for their own use too ?
Why is that ? I can 't see the use of that (though I'm sure there is one)

When I made a new profile, and TB started, the account wizard was loaded. After filling in everything, I came to the point where I had to type in my smtp server. Above this field there was a question : "uncheck this option to save email from this account in it's own directory. This will make this account a top-level account (what's this ?). If not, it will become a part of the global INBOX under "local maps".

I unchecked it because I don't want to use those global maps, basically because I don't know what they are for.
Was I correct in doing this ? Could somebody please enlighten me ?

4) Attachments. I would like to have all of my attachments saved in the folder d:\TBmail\attach (or maybe in d:\tbattach - not sure yet). Though this is a simple setting, I've noticed that when I receive emails with attachments, that they are clickable and viewable in TB, but still not saved on my HD. (where are they then ?? I'm using POP3, so I'm sure they MUST be on my HD somewhere, only I can't find them)
I have to say to TB each time to save them. Is this normal ?

That's about all I can think of. Could somebody please enlighten me on those subjects ? I've checked on the net and read several FAQ's but they were not much use. Is there a manual for TB somewhere ?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me !!

Archeon
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 18:57

This is what I know about Thunderbird...

(Sorry, was just working with the LRCDB plugin on that particular album, so it was in the forefront of my mind.)
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 19:07


OK, let me rephrase that then : anybody know something about Thunderbird, the email client ?
Posted by: Roger

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 19:35

Quote:
...it STILL insists on using c:\documents and settings\name\thunderbird\xxxxxx as the directory in which the mail is stored. Strange. Why is that?


Because that's the rules. In Windows, applications should put user-specific data in C:\Documents and Settings\username\Application Data\application.

On Linux, it'll end up in $HOME/.mozilla-thunderbird, which is suggested by the rules on that platform.
Posted by: Roger

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 19:39

Quote:
I have to say to TB each time to save them. Is this normal ?


Yes. This is normal.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 19:40

Right. Because in both OSes, that's where user-changeable data exists. If you had a multi-user machine and an administrator installed Thunderbird, you wouldn't be able to write your data to the installation directory. And if you could, would you really want your application data in a place where others would access it? I suppose they could create .../install/users/wfaulk/data and .../install/users/archeon/data, but it's not the accepted way to do it. It's just that only recently has Windows bothered to come up with a standard location for this stuff.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 19:52

Quote:
What's with these profiles anyway ? What are they for ? The first time I ever heard of those was with Firefox, but I never had to use them. What's their purpose ? I assume it's because multiple users would each have "their" own version of the browser/email client. (is this a Linux thing ?)

A good question. I've never figured it out. It started with Netscape (like 3.x) on Windows. I assumed it was there so that Windows machines without a real notion of multiple users (the 95, 98, Me line) could still have multiple user settings within Netscape. Now it's confusingly come back to the Unix side for no apparent reason. (I could go on a rant about Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird installation under Unix, but I'll spare you.) It's definitely not a Unix thing.

Quote:
Those "local folders" in TB ? What's with those?? What's their use ??

Another good question. I haven't used a POP account in many years and assumed that that's where POP messages went, but now that I think about it, they probably have their own folders. Actually, looking just now, it seems that you can set up POP accounts to go into their own folders or into the "Local Folders" folders, while IMAP messages always stay in their own hierarchy. So that's what it's for (plus movemail under Unix). Don't know why it's not removable, though. I just collapse it, place it at the bottom, and ignore it.

Quote:
Attachments.

Yeah, that's normal. The attachments are embedded in the email messages just like they were received. Honestly, I've never heard of an email client that would do that before. (Well, I've heard of Eudora and used it -- hated it -- but I didn't know it had that feature.)
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 20:32

Quote:
Quote:
What's with these profiles anyway ? What are they for ? The first time I ever heard of those was with Firefox, but I never had to use them. What's their purpose ? I assume it's because multiple users would each have "their" own version of the browser/email client. (is this a Linux thing ?)

A good question. I've never figured it out. It started with Netscape (like 3.x) on Windows. I assumed it was there so that Windows machines without a real notion of multiple users (the 95, 98, Me line) could still have multiple user settings within Netscape. Now it's confusingly come back to the Unix side for no apparent reason. (I could go on a rant about Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird installation under Unix, but I'll spare you.) It's definitely not a Unix thing.

OK, that's good to know. Still strange though, and confusing. For some reason, it seems they want to give users the option of using personalised verision of TB/FF, even if there's only use one users account on a PC. That's just plain stupid. Just give each user a different account and be done with it.

Quote:

Quote:
Those "local folders" in TB ? What's with those?? What's their use ??

Another good question. I haven't used a POP account in many years

I would prefer IMAP too, but over here that really isn't common. No ISP that I know supports it. Basically you would need to run your own email server to be able to do that, but that also isn't allowed by most ISP's. Don't ask me why, I don't know...

Quote:
and assumed that that's where POP messages went, but now that I think about it, they probably have their own folders.


That's correct, they do. Which makes the usefullness of those local folders IMHO about zero... Unless I'm missing something of course.

Quote:
Actually, looking just now, it seems that you can set up POP accounts to go into their own folders or into the "Local Folders" folders, while IMAP messages always stay in their own hierarchy. So that's what it's for (plus movemail under Unix). Don't know why it's not removable, though. I just collapse it, place it at the bottom, and ignore it.

Good suggestion. I'll do that.

Quote:

Quote:
Attachments.

Yeah, that's normal. The attachments are embedded in the email messages just like they were received. Honestly, I've never heard of an email client that would do that before. (Well, I've heard of Eudora and used it -- hated it -- but I didn't know it had that feature.)


What do you mean? You've never heard of an email client that did embed their attachements into their emails, or you've never heard of one that didn't do that ? I like the way that Eudora stores all the attachements in a separate folder. This is so by default. Makes a lot more sense than embedding them in the email itself if you ask me. (and a lot easier to make a backup of them too). Of course, this is only so providing that you don't change your attachment directory. Ever. Otherwise you're in for a treat. But who would want to do that anyway?

I've used Eudora for so long now, I've become pretty used to it. I like how everything can be done in one screen, with the tabs and all. I've noticed how TB opens a new window for almost everything you click on, which rapidly clutters the taskbar. I know there are probably better clients out there than Eudora, but for now, it does exactly what I want it to. If there was a Linux version of it, I wouldn't even be considering this migration. But the general idea is that I want to be able to use the same email data with a Windows and a Linux version of TB, in a multi-boot config. That's for the future though, but I figured I might as well get used to TB a bit already. However, I must admit that the first impression isn't a particulary good one. Opposite to FireFox, which I LOVED from the very first minute.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 20:41

Regarding attachments, at least for Outlook, when you open them they are put in a hidden system folder:

C:\Documents and Settings\USERNAME\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files\OLKC1\

Does TB do something similar? I found this out by opening the attachment from inside Outlook then choosing 'File/Save' from the application that was called. It defaults to the hidden directory in the Save dialog box.

-Zeke
Posted by: drakino

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 23:14

Quote:
For some reason, it seems they want to give users the option of using personalised verision of TB/FF, even if there's only use one users account on a PC. That's just plain stupid. Just give each user a different account and be done with it.


Allows people to also have a Work/Home profile under a single Windows login. Or E-mail account 1 and 2. Many ways to use it, it's just a feature there that probably only gets used by a handful of people.
Posted by: Attack

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 19/01/2005 23:22

The Local folders was first made for people that use Imap and wanted to copy messages to have offline. I think it was around .9 that they added the option for Pop mail settings to have the account put the mail into One of these three options:
Global Mail Box (Local Folders Account)
Inbox for this account
Inbox for different account

Now the option you pick depends on how you like to view your mail and if you use more than 1 Pop mail service? I myself have three different accounts and have the email stored in each accounts inbox.
Profiles are very nice and the fact that they are stored in Documents and Settings means if you encrypt your documents folders no one else will get to your email when looking at your files. Unless they are on the machine with your account. Also since Windows XP has the "Files and Settings Transfer Wizard" the mail in the Documents and Settings will get backed up.

The file attachment can be saved to a location, in the options click on attachment and select "Save all attachments to this folder" select folder.

Oh and you might want to read this
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/01/06/1557216
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 03:00

You may be able to move your Documents and Settings folder onto a different drive. That way you can preserve all the unique data in there the next time you wiupe your installation drive. Otherwise, Thunderbird will be the least of your worries. Or you can leave it where it is and make sure to always back up that folder hierarchy.

I thought perhaps TweakUI could do the move, but it only handles some of the special sub-folders for the current user account. Likely another tool out there or a registry hack and manual file/folder move.

When programs didn't support multi-user environments, people complained. Now that they do... People complain. Some programs offer settings so you can override the behaviour whichever way you want. Haven't done a final install/switch to Thunderbird yet. I will for both XP and Mac OS though. (For Mac OS I've already moved my /Users/ hierarchy off the root partition to somewhere else for this same reason.)

Bruno
Posted by: Roger

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 09:31

Quote:
Makes a lot more sense than embedding them in the email itself if you ask me.


Why? They were embedded in the email when it was sent to you. Why not leave them embedded in the email?
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 10:52

Because every so many time I make a backup of those attachments. OK, so I could tell TB to save all those attachments in a certain place, but I suppose the attachments also stay in the emails as well, effectively doubling the harddrive space these attachments occupy ?
Call me picky, but I don't like that.

But I also realise it's probably only because I'm used to it being done in a different way for years now though...
Posted by: andy

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 10:56

Quote:

I would prefer IMAP too, but over here that really isn't common. No ISP that I know supports it. Basically you would need to run your own email server to be able to do that, but that also isn't allowed by most ISP's. Don't ask me why, I don't know...



Though of course that still leaves you with the option of running your own email server locally and getting the mail via pop3 using something like fetchmail.
Posted by: peter

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 11:28

Quote:
Because every so many time I make a backup of those attachments. OK, so I could tell TB to save all those attachments in a certain place, but I suppose the attachments also stay in the emails as well, effectively doubling the harddrive space these attachments occupy ?
Call me picky, but I don't like that.

But I also realise it's probably only because I'm used to it being done in a different way for years now though...

Yeah, I'm also used to the leave-it-embedded type of mail program, so the Eudora way always seemed odd. The attachments get backed up when I back up my email -- why (goes the Thunderbird argument, or in my case the imapd/Evolution argument) do the backup in two goes?

Peter
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 11:43

Quote:
Yeah, I'm also used to the leave-it-embedded type of mail program, so the Eudora way always seemed odd. The attachments get backed up when I back up my email -- why (goes the Thunderbird argument, or in my case the imapd/Evolution argument) do the backup in two goes?


Because I like to be able to reach my attachments from windows explorer.
Hmmm... The more I read this, the less it makes sense. Ah, darn it, it's a preference, what more can I say ?
Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 12:07

Quote:
You may be able to move your Documents and Settings folder onto a different drive.


Right-click on the My Documents icon on your desktop and select Properties. When the Properties dialogue box appears, select "move." Another dialogue box will appear asking where you'd like to move it to, so select a new location (a new drive, a new partition) and click "yes."
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 12:09

Quote:
Quote:
You may be able to move your Documents and Settings folder onto a different drive.


Right-click on the My Documents icon on your desktop and select Properties. When the Properties dialogue box appears, select "move." Another dialogue box will appear asking where you'd like to move it to, so select a new location (a new drive, a new partition) and click "yes."


Wow! That's cool! That would enable me to put all those documents on the D AND keep on using the standard MS way of doing things. Thanks a lot Cybjorg!
One question though...If you move those maps using that way, do all the applications know about it as well then? I mean, there will be no more asking about a "my documents" directory on the c: drive then?.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 13:53

Very slick, Cy. I didn't know that one.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:02

It doesn't sound like that would be too hard to write a Thunderbird extension for. In the meantime, you should be able to use the "View" dropdown to select a filter that shows you only your messages with attachments. You might have to create it, but I think that Thunderbird ships with such a filter already there.
Posted by: Roger

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:03

Quote:
Very slick, Cy. I didn't know that one.


Unfortunately, it only moves your 'My Documents' folder. The Documents and Settings\Application Settings folders stay exactly where they are. It's still useful, but it ain't the whole thing.
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:07

Quote:
Unfortunately, it only moves your 'My Documents' folder. The Documents and Settings\Application Settings folders stay exactly where they are. It's still useful, but it ain't the whole thing.


Yup I've stayed out of this because although I managed to change my default locations successfully I can't remember how. All I remember is that it wasn't easy.
Posted by: Roger

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:20

Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, it only moves your 'My Documents' folder. The Documents and Settings\Application Settings folders stay exactly where they are. It's still useful, but it ain't the whole thing.


Yup I've stayed out of this because although I managed to change my default locations successfully I can't remember how. All I remember is that it wasn't easy.


If you really want to change them, they're in
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders

However, this will almost certainly screw up a bunch of stuff that's stashed the old location somewhere.
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:33

I didn't (manually) mod the registry, I'll see if I can dig something up.
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 14:39

Found it:

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_:_FAQs_:_Changing_Profile_Folder_Location

It didn't work straight off, so be prepared to fiddle with it.
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 15:05

Also found this:

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=204381&sid=0848f509b50464f63ffcc7977555fc14
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 15:21

And if you download the calendar component (very good IMO) and want it to start up at the same time as Thunderbird you need to add these flags to your command line:

-mail -calendar
Posted by: drakino

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 16:29

Quote:
Why? They were embedded in the email when it was sent to you. Why not leave them embedded in the email?


One problem I could see like that if all the messages in one folder get stored in one file. If an antivirus program scans that file, it could find a virus and cause damage to the file representiting the folder. Worse yet, it does a quarantine action and the entire folder disappears.

Does Thunderbird integrate with any anti-virus solutions yet to avoid this?
Posted by: StigOE

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 18:57

Quote:
If there was a Linux version of it, I wouldn't even be considering this migration.

You can run it under Linux using Wine. One of the programs winetools offer to install is Eudora 6.2. I haven't had the chance to try it yet, but since I'm also a long time user of Eudora, I plan to install it on my Linux partition on my laptop.

Stig
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 20:07

I've been a long-time hater of Eudora, so I've stayed clear of it. I've always thought it was one of the worst email clients around (not including the ones that lack so many features that they're not even worthy of consideration). Have always been extremely disappointed with the Mac and Windows versions I've seen.

Thunderbird seems to represent what I've always thought a mail program should be. At least it's the closest. I've been using TheBat for a few years now, and although it's certainly powerful, it's a right pain in the ass for some things and has a bunch of bugs in the final version I have - beta versions of the newer release introduce other bugs that I'm not willing to put up with.

The fact Thunderbird is available for Windows and Mac OS X seals it.

Bruno
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 20/01/2005 20:54

suppose the attachments also stay in the emails as well, effectively doubling the harddrive space these attachments occupy ?


I guess that means that at the end of a year or so of backing things up, you have uttterly wasted maybe 75 cents worth of hard drive space.



tanstaafl.
Posted by: tahir

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 21/01/2005 08:32

Quote:
Thunderbird seems to represent what I've always thought a mail program should be. At least it's the closest.


I'd agree with that
Posted by: muzza

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 21/01/2005 22:08

I partitioned my new drive into two: one 40gig system and one 160gig data.
After installing (anything from win2K to XP, i'm trying 2k3 server and tiring of it) on the system partition, I created my personal login, logged in then out and back in as administrator. I then renamed the personal directory, and mounted the data partition as a new folder as my personal directory. I copied all the default gunk into the new improved personal folder and assigned permissions appropriately.
I logged in as me as all works just fine.
I have no problem with the default location of application data and I can reinstall the system without killing my data.

You could do the same thing for the 'Documents and Settings' folder. (why the hell did they give it that long name??)

You then don't need to worry about 'D:\' in your pathnames and windows apps dont see things any differently.

This doesn't necessarily help you with eudora/TB configs but might help when you reinstall. (isn't 3-4 months a little too often?)
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 22/01/2005 12:06

Quote:
I then renamed the personal directory, and mounted the data partition as a new folder as my personal directory. I copied all the default gunk into the new improved personal folder and assigned permissions appropriately.


Could you elaborate on how you did this ? This I don't quite understand.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Anybody knows anything about Thunderbird ? - 22/01/2005 18:49

I was waiting for someone to say that very thing.

Bruno