Posted by: bonzi
Here I go again - 31/03/2005 19:24
(Warning: people having enough of my discussing religion-related subjects might want to skip this thread, but I would rather if they wouldn't
)
AlterNet recently run an article on organized religion in the USA titled
The End of Reason. The piece, predictably, stirred quite a discussion (on average of rather disappointing qualitiy).
Let me ask one question raised in the article:
How would you define the difference between faith and superstition?
Posted by: pgrzelak
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 19:41
Before this gets ugly, I will say my two cents worth and then run for cover.
Much of it is point of view. Faith is if you are the believer, superstition is if you are not.
I would add that there seem to be connotations that faith is usually thought of as a more positive, complex / interrelated / singular system of beliefs, while superstition has more negative connotations, being more associated with individual events / actions / rituals that do not appear to be interrelated to each other.
Again, this is all perspective and point of view. You may not personally have faith, but still recognize something as faith if you share a common context. If you do not share a common understanding, any singular event seems a random instance, perhaps nonsensical out of context, and is often perceived as a superstition.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 19:53
The Christians and the Pagans
by Dar Williams
Amber called her uncle, said 'we're up here for the holiday,
Jane and I were having solstice, now we need a place to stay.'
And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree,
He watched his son hang candy canes, all made with red dye number three.
He told his niece, 'it's Christmas eve, I know our life is not your style,'
She said, 'Christmas is like solstice, and we miss you and it's been a while.'
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,
Sending hope for peace on Earth to all their gods and goddesses.
The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, 'is it true that you're a witch?'
His mom jumped up and said, 'the pies are burning,' and she hit the kitchen,
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, 'it's true, your cousin's not a Christian,'
'but we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere,'
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And where does magic come from? I think magic's in the learning,
Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans, only pumpkin pies are burning.
When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, 'really, no, don't bother.'
Amber's uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father.
He thought about his brother, how they hadn't spoken in a year,
He thought he'd call him up and say, 'its Christmas and your daughter's here.'
He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, saw his own son tug his sleeve, saying,
'can I be a Pagan?' Dad said, 'we'll discuss it when they leave.'
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old,
Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.
Posted by: bonzi
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 20:03
That's beautiful, Tony, and of course, exactly on the point.
Posted by: bonzi
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 20:06
I hope so, but he sounded dead serious
Posted by: pgrzelak
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 20:12
Well, I would like to say that the point of view of the perceiver and person answering "is it faith or superstition" is critical. Someone without the background or context of any belief system as random individual acts. Therefore someone without that background will see superstition. It does not take any belief to allow the perceiver to recognize something as faith, even if they do not believe it themselves. It merely takes enough understanding and context to recognize that the acts / rituals / etc. are interconnected by something greater.
The concept of "my faith is faith, others are supersitions" is a biased perspective where the perceiver does not, or chooses not to, appreciate the complexity of the individual actions / beliefs and chooses to minimalize these conflicting views by selecting term with negative connotations to dismiss the concept.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 20:49
I think superstition is when you at least realize that you're trying to fool yourself.
Posted by: bonzi
Re: Here I go again - 31/03/2005 21:03
More tomorrow, but I cannot resist this bit before going to bed:
Quote:
What about the people who don’t think that critical thinking is of any value (and there are plenty of those)?
I invite them to live by their convictions and give up medicine, tools, shelter, cars, food, army that defends them from infidels and other such illusions 'brought to you by critical thinking'.
Posted by: tahir
Re: Here I go again - 01/04/2005 10:18
How rational is atheism? We still have to accept that somehow we were created, all that matter out in the universe came from somewhere, didn't it???
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Here I go again - 01/04/2005 20:25
A question that can be equally posed to theists, by the way.
Posted by: JBjorgen
Re: Here I go again - 01/04/2005 20:31
Although it would seem they would have a simpler answer.
Posted by: tonyc
Re: Here I go again - 01/04/2005 20:37
Maybe I have my terms confused, but I always thought a "non devout" atheist was better described by the term "agnostic."
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Here I go again - 02/04/2005 02:02
At the same time, most agnostics tend to live their lives as atheists, since it seems silly to rely on something that you cannot define.
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: Here I go again - 02/04/2005 17:52
There are tons of things in this world that I don’t understand and much that is beyond my comprehension, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in those things or refuse to interact with them.
Ah, but there's the rub! Many people (not you, Jeff!) take the point of view that "...if I can't explain it, then that's proof that God exists." and no amount of intelligent reasoning will dissuade them from this path of rather circular logic.
My agnosticism takes the form of "...I just don't have enough information to make a properly informed decision one way or the other, so I will withhold judgment."
tanstaafl.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: Here I go again - 06/04/2005 12:50
Well, at least it's something. Glad they got it fixed.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Here I go again - 06/04/2005 13:18
Of course, all that just leads to the question of why not shoot yourself in the head the first chance you get, end all the suffering, and go live with God? Or, if you're going to make an argument about suicide, just live your life at a level of extreme risk helping everyone you can, and die trying to save a Tutsi from an extermination raid.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Here I go again - 06/04/2005 15:10
So, essentially, you've gotta play by the rules.