New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please?
Posted by: TigerJimmy
New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 01:15
Hi everyone,
I know there are quite a few TiVo enthusiasts here and I was hoping you could offer me some advice. It's been over 10 years since I've had any kind of TV service. My GF and I just ordered cable (Charter Communications) and it is going to be installed on Wednesday. We keep pretty weird hours, so the idea of being able to watch good stuff at any time via TiVo sounds really appealing.
The service we ordered is "extended basic with the family package". Apparently, the channels in the family package require a cable box to receive, while the "extended basic" channels do not. We will be getting two cable boxes, one for each TV.
I know that TiVo changed their subscription fees recently. I noticed that one can purchase a used series 2 TiVo on ebay for about $250-300 which includes a transferrable lifetime subscription.
Here's my questions:
How do the Sony and Toshiba models fit into the equation? Are they the same as a series 2? The Sony and Toshiba units sell for considerably less. What's the deal with that?
Is buying a used series 2 with the lifetime subscription the way to go? Is going TiVo even the way to go? I've read that some of you are quite dissatisfied with recent software upgrades.
Are there more than one model of series 2 or is the only difference the hard disk size (especially, do they all have 2 tuners)? What are the hidden "gotchas" of buying a used unit?
Given this cable company setup with the "family package", does one need 2 cable boxes as inputs to the TiVo? How does all this get hooked together so it can do its thing while we watch other stuff?
I can stick any old IDE hard disk in this thing, right? So I don't need to worry about getting a lower capacity unit?
Do the series 2 models all have ethernet capability, or capability to add it? What about 802.11?
Any other tips would be appreciated. We have no intention of upgrading to HD infrastructure in the near future.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
Jim
Posted by: robricc
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 01:36
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How do the Sony and Toshiba models fit into the equation? Are they the same as a series 2? The Sony and Toshiba units sell for considerably less. What's the deal with that?
I am not a stand-alone Tivo expert, but I am pretty sure Sony only branded Series 1 units. I think Toshiba only marketed DVD/Tivo combo units which are usually available with Tivo Basic service. Tivo Basic was a short-lived option that was free, but only gave you 3-days worth of guide data. It also didn't allow for season passes (recording all of a certain show) and suggestions (recording things it thinks you would like). The Tivo Basic service still works on these units, but it's no longer available in new boxes.
Posted by: robricc
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 01:45
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Given this cable company setup with the "family package", does one need 2 cable boxes as inputs to the TiVo? How does all this get hooked together so it can do its thing while we watch other stuff?
Until recently, only DirecTV Tivos would record two things at once. If you want to do that with cable, you would need one of the newer "DT" Series 2 Boxes. Since these are new, I don't think it's possible to buy/find one with a lifetime subscription.
You do not need two cables boxes on one tivo for these DT units. They cannot record from two cable box inputs at once. If you're using a channel only available with the cable box, the tivo will only be able to record another channel in the background that is accessible without a cable box.
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I can stick any old IDE hard disk in this thing, right? So I don't need to worry about getting a lower capacity unit?
Yes, all tivo units are easy to upgrade if you have PC skills.
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Do the series 2 models all have ethernet capability, or capability to add it? What about 802.11?
Most don't, but some (like the DT boxes) do. If a Series 2 doesn't have an ethernet port built-in, it can be added with a USB ethernet dongle. 802.11b/g is also an option.
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 02:00
If you want all the latest features like tivo to go you need a stand alone series 2. The current software for the series 2 is crap. It is very, very slow but they will probably fix it someday.
I don't know if I would buy a new one now with the new cell phone model pricing but there really isn't a better option.
Posted by: TigerJimmy
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 04:55
Does buying a used series 2 with a lifetime subscription solve the issue with the cellphone pricing model?
How important is the dual tuner option anyway?
That is not good news about the newest software being crap...
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 11:48
Yeah if they let you transfer the lifetime subscription it would just getting a used one might get you the old pricing too. They did say they were only going to charge the new pricing for new customers.
I'm sure they will fix the software sometime but who knows when they won't even admit there is a problem.
Depending on how this feature works it could be pretty interesting.
Link
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 16:25
TiVo is just about dead. Losing more money all the time and the new pricing model is only going to lose them more subscribers.
Once their service goes you'll be left with a completely useless box. My advice is to take the money you're willing to spend on the TiVo and get yourself a PC running SageTV. Whether it be Sage for Windows or Sage for Linux.
http://sagetv.com - they should have a list of companies pre-building finished units. The new version 6 software will be a significant improvement over the current v5.
It's not a TiVo, but it's about the next best thing and does offer a lot of features not possible with any TiVo - including controlling two or more external tuner boxes. To run a second TV you just need to use a Media Extender (which can be a dedicated piece of pre-built hardware or a small PC running their Client or Placeshifter software). With their Placeshifter software you can also watch your recorded content from anywhere in the world with a net connection - so this gives you the bonus functionality of a SlingBox.
Two other PC-basd solutions to look at are Microsoft's own MCE and ReplayTV's newest release.
Sage and MCE have no monthly subscription fees.
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 17:58
Bruno, do you have a SageTV box yourself?
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 18:35
Yup, I've been running it as my primary TV for over a year now. I started with the beta version of 3.x (which was when they started official support for Canada) and then moved to one of the 4.x release versions. Last update was earlier this year to version 5. Every update went without a hitch too which is a must for what should be a consumer-type device.
Setting one up yourself from scratch is still a techy experience in my opinion. I had to swap in ffdshow/ffmpeg for my decoding because I was unhappy with the stock performance (it wasn't de-interlaced regardless of what their support department thought).
Not a problem for anyone on this board, but it's what's keeping the PC-based solution from the hands of many consumers. Most problems stem from the fact it runs on top of Windows though. The linux version would probably provide a much more seamless closed-box experience if someone else did the install. And a Mac version is in beta now and should be released sometime this year.
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 19:20
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Yup, I've been running it as my primary TV for over a year now.
So, is the EPG of any value whatsoever for strictly off-the-air use?
And I wonder if it could be made to work with a couple of ATI Remote's that I just happen to have lying around here... 
On an unrelated note, I took 3 hours this past Saturday to install Ubuntu-Edgy + MythTV onto my new designated PVR box, and spent the rest of the day watching HiDef CBC and trying to get the ATI remotes to do something meaningful. Looks like I'll need to set them up from scratch for MythTV.
The HDHomeRun HD dual-tuner box is really good, and works well here. It'll be nice for a lot of folks when SageTV finally supports it properly.
Cheers
Posted by: andym
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 21:16
Assuming you're able I would seriously consider trying MythTV before taking the plunge and paying for Sage. Certainly over in the UK it works wonderfully with DVB-T cards for freeview channels especially since they included the EIT parser with gives an over the air 8 day EPG completely free. American users are also watching HD content with very little tweakery. Since the .18 release it's been really simple to install and the bootable distros make it even easier.
As for Sage, three of my friends wanted PVRs, seeing as they weren't proficient linux people I said they should try it. They all eventually went over to MCE instead after being totally underwhelmed.
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 21:41
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Assuming you're able I would seriously consider trying MythTV before taking the plunge and paying for Sage.
Oh, definitely. I set up Myth this past Saturday afternoon.
But still on the to-do list for it:- Try and set up a program guide, if one exists for here.
- Get the bloody ATI remote control to generate Myth commands.
- Add some kind of failsafe thingie for mythbackend, as it has mysteriously died twice.
- Wire it up for real, and disconnect the VCRs and DVD players.
- Figure out how to get the Myth box to power-down between recordings (green planet).
Cheers
Posted by: andym
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 22:35
Sorry Mark, I meant to reply to Jim, obviously you know 'a bit' about Linux!!
* Before they got the EIT parser working, the programme guide here in the UK used to get scraped from a website. It took ages and the resultant data wasn't always accurate.
* When I moved over to the Sky Navigator remote it took ages to set up, even after LIRC had been set up. Although that's partly because it has a full QWERTY keyboard on it.
* It happens now and again on mine. Although not often enough to require me to do anything about it other than restart the process. A cron task to check that there's still a process called mythbackend running or something?
* Done that bar the DVD player, I haven't the storage to convert the 250-odd DVDs I own!
* Did think about that, but now my backend also hosts my VPN, mail, DNS and web servers and just about everything else. So even when it's not recording or playing, odds are it's doing something else!
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 22:42
Here are some questions about sage tv if you have the time.
Does it do suggestions ? I thought either sage or beyond did but now I can't find anywhere that says they do.
What do you use for a remote ?
How do you connect to the tv / what are you using for a tv ? My experience connecting a pc to my tv has not been good.
The software from replay isn't out yet is it ?
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 14/11/2006 22:43
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A cron task to check that there's still a process called mythbackend running or something?
daemontools?
Posted by: TigerJimmy
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 01:21
I will definitely look in to Myth and Sage. I'm pretty handy with computers and quite comfortable with UNIX command line stuff.
Here are a few questions I have after some poking around:
With a computer monitor, is this an inexpensive way to get HD? I'm just not ready to shell out a couple of grand for a new TV.
What tuner card to get? Seems like the pchdtv hd-3000 and the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 (or 350) are common choices. I can't figure out whether the Hauppauge are HDTV tuners or not.
There is a new Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 that has dual tuners, but it seems to be targeted to Windows MC exclusively. I haven't been able to figure out if this one will work with a Myth or linux Sage box, or if the dual tuners are HD or not.
What does one use for a remote control? Is a $200 universal remote going to be mandatory for one of these things to be truly usable?
Is Myth as capable (or more capable) than Sage? Is ease of installation all you get with Sage? What does one do for program listings in either case?
The thing that seemed coolest about Tivo was that it would record suggestions based on your viewing preferences and ratings. I have no idea how well this actually worked, but I really liked the idea of it. Do either of Sage or Myth have similar functionality?
Thanks everyone for the insight.
Posted by: TigerJimmy
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 01:22
What about channels that require the cable box? How do either of these systems control the cable box?
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 01:47
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With a computer monitor, is this an inexpensive way to get HD? I'm just not ready to shell out a couple of grand for a new TV.
It works for me. But a 32" LCD television is only about US$500 or so (1366x768). A comparably almost-as-large (dimensions) LCD monitor is about US$1400 or so (but is much higher resolution).
The CBC transmits in 1920x1080i format, VERY high resolution. Looks sweet on my 17" notebook, so long as I sit close to it.
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What tuner card to get? Seems like the pchdtv hd-3000 and the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 (or 350) are common choices. I can't figure out whether the Hauppauge are HDTV tuners or not.
Those ones are not ATSC (HDTV). The PVR-350 is two-cards in one: a TV receiver, and a TV playback device. The playback part looks like it's on the way out (getting dropped) from Myth, though that may change again.
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There is a new Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 that has dual tuners
I have a PVR-500 in my Myth box. Works fine, but the receiver sensitivity is rumoured to be worse than that on the PVR-250. Research the PVR-500 carefully, as apparently there is a Windoze-only model out there, as well as the full featured one that I have.
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What does one use for a remote control? Is a $200 universal remote going to be mandatory for one of these things to be truly usable?
Best bet is to buy a Haugppauge card+remote combo pack. Guaranteed to work out of the box that way. I didn't. 
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Is Myth as capable (or more capable) than Sage? Is ease of installation all you get with Sage?
They look pretty darned similar on the surface, but Sage-for-windows is apparently much simpler to get set up. Dunno about the permanent second-class Sage-for-Linux "OEM" edition.
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What does one do for program listings in either case?
Sage offers a "free for the time being" program listing service with their software. Myth uses one of several free services from the internet. I haven't figure that part out yet for my situation (Canada, off-the-air only, no cable).
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The thing that seemed coolest about Tivo was that it would record suggestions based on your viewing preferences and ratings.
Sage claims to do something very similar. I don't think Myth does.
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 01:47
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What about channels that require the cable box? How do either of these systems control the cable box?
They both can control an IR transmitter to manage the cable box automatically.
-ml
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 15:02
An EPG is always useful. A PVR without one is not much more than a digital VCR - not nearly as functional and useful when it can't be automated.
Tribune, who provides data to Sage, do have many lineups for Canada. I'm not sure they have an Antenna listing as availability varies greatly by locale (which is normally dictated by postal code). You may have to customize one of the cable lineups to put the correct channels where you want them and disable the ones you don't want. You should be able to find this type of information in their forum.
The ATI Remote Wonder should work as long as the software you're using with it allows it to simulate keystrokes, etc. I don't think Sage has built-in support for it to allow you to run without other software.
Myth may be a fine "free" alternative for thos ethat like to be hands-on, but I just didn't like its concept of what a PVR should be. It broke many of my own personal design rules and was quickly eliminated as an option. Besides, $85 for SageTV when compared to the issues setting up Myth might as well have been free. You also get a full registered/lawful data feed. Tribune charges upward of $20k US per month for a bulk data feed, so getting this from Sage with every purchase is a HUGE bonus for the consumer. This data is essentially what any TiVo subscriber is paying for.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 15:17
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It broke many of my own personal design rules
You know, you mention this sort of thing quite a bit, and it's admirable that you have a focus on UI, but it always struck me as odd that you used to work for ATI, who has the worst UI record of any major computer vendor I can think of.
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 15:50
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..You may have to customize one of the cable lineups to put the correct channels where you want them and disable the ones you don't want.
Okay, good to know that the software can do that.
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The ATI Remote Wonder should work as long as the software you're using with it allows it to simulate keystrokes, etc.
By default, it comes up with mouse/keyboard emulation on Linux. But many of the useful PVR buttons do nothing -- some can be remapped simply enough, but others don't actually get passed up at all from the kernel driver. I can hack that too, but I'm just trying to size up the effort versus Myth (same problem with Myth).
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$85 for SageTV when compared to the issues setting up Myth might as well have been free.
That's $85 for the first year, and then $25-30 for yearly upgrades.
I'm using Linux as the base platform regardless, and it sounds like SageTV is not much simpler than MythTV on the "Linux OEM edition". But for a pure Microsoft box (add $130 for *that* license), it would definitely make sense.
Thanks for helping us all out with the inside scoops!
Cheers
Posted by: Dignan
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 20:19
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Quote:
It broke many of my own personal design rules
You know, you mention this sort of thing quite a bit, and it's admirable that you have a focus on UI, but it always struck me as odd that you used to work for ATI, who has the worst UI record of any major computer vendor I can think of.
Bitt, has your experience with ATI been with PCs or Macs? Bruno worked for the Apple side. If you're refering to the PC side of things, then you're absolutely correct. That software is terrible. I really wish I didn't have to install it on my last system, but the driver alone wouldn't work...
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 20:28
Yeah, good point. The Windows side is what I was referring to.
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 15/11/2006 22:47
One of the reasons I worked on the Mac team and one of the reasons I didn't make too many friends in the PC software division. All the PC software sucked. Or still sucks. The remote software, control panel, drivers, you name it.
Posted by: Attack
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 16/11/2006 03:07
I first got TiVo in December 2000 and have tried using software on PC's and it just doesn't compare to the TiVo. The TiVo just works, I the only time I put into the TiVo is using it to watch TV. All the other software I've tried, I'm always having to fiddle with something to make it work every month. Think about how much you would be billing someone else for the work your doing with the software bases PVR's you will quickly be willing to pay $10 - $20 a month for something that just works. Hell, I currently own 5 TiVo's. 3 Philips series 1 units, 1 Series 2 DT and 1 Series 3 unit. I'm only using 1 of my series 1 units at this time. I might sell the other 2 or give them away for X-mas.
Now as for your questions:
The the HD's can be upgraded in all units. I've upgraded all of my series 1 units. The 1 currently in use has 2 120GB drives and a CacheCard. The others have 1 120GB drive and a TurboNet.
The series 1 units can have the custom network cards (TurboNet or CacheCard) added to them. The series 2 units have USB check TiVo's store for the adapter types. The series 2 DT and the Series 3 have 100MB ethernet port and USB for the Wireless adapter.
Only the series 3 unit can record digital cable by getting a cable card from your cable provider. If you don't want the series 3 unit at this time (Only really needed if you want HDTV) and you can't receive the stations you want without the cable cable box you can only record one channel at a time. The TiVo will be connected to the cable box and will use an IR cable to tell the box to change the channel. This can cause problems as sometimes the channel might not change. Some cable boxes have a serial port that the TiVo can use instead of the IR cable, most people say they have near perfect channel changes with the serial cable. If you decide you can do without the cable box I would recommend the series 2 DT unit as it can record two stations at once. Also the series 2 units support all the HMO features and TiVoToGo. One of HMO features lets you view recordings on other TiVos in your house. TivoToGo lets your extract shows to the PC and watch them on it or transfer the show to some portable devices.
Also please check out these forums
This is the hacking underground site: They have extraction / show conversion and other stuff.
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/TiVo employees post here, but the site doesn't allow posts about non TiVoToGo extraction) / removing the DRM from TiVoToGo files. But it is one of the few sites I read daily.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/I can would be glad to talk to you over the phone if you would like to know more.
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 16/11/2006 14:37
To be fair, I don't have to do any maintenance at all on my SageTV box. It was tricky to set up at the time, but it's more the fault of Windows than anything. I recommend turning OFF auto-update and anything else that may ever pop up any type of warning or take additional processing in the background.
Buying TiVo right now is like buying a gasoline car a couple of weeks before the supply of crude oil dries up. Not to mention its huge faults (aside from subscription): You can only record one source and the files are not immediately portable. With a PC-based solution you can record anywhere from 1 to 10 sources if you wanted to. In any combination of providers/lineups no less. This is true for software other than Sage as well, such as BeyondTV.
I hacked my DirecTV TiVo to hell and back, incouding adding LBA48 support and a 200GB drive. Setting up a TiVo with all the hacks, a cachecard, TiVoWeb, etc. is much more a pain in the butt than installing Sage on a Windows machine.
Both boxes also have something in common - neither is crash-proof. My Sage installation still hangs every now and then. Sometimes it goes months without dying though. I've got 600GB in it right now and am about to add an additional 250GB SATA I have lying around here. Version 6 supports transcoding recorded content, so anything I want to keep will be shrunk and the extra drive space may go to storing rips of my own DVDs (when I get around to that).
I loved the TiVo interface. I still think it's the leader and no one else seems to want to jump ono board some of their control paradigms. But TiVo is also doing really awful stuff like restricting recordings, adding advertisements and generally bowing down to the media moguls.
As an aside, I'd like to sell my version 2.x Cachecard with 512MB dimm. Any idea how much I can get for it?
Posted by: Dignan
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 16/11/2006 19:36
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The current software for the series 2 is crap. It is very, very slow but they will probably fix it someday.
Well, let us know if anything is fixed! I have a DirecTivo, so I guess I'm glad that I can't get all the updates...?
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 16/11/2006 19:55
Ya directv users lucked out one this one
I just signed up for the priority list.
Posted by: robricc
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 18/11/2006 23:30
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The software from replay isn't out yet is it ?
30 day trial is available now.
http://www.replaytv.com/
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 19/11/2006 00:08
Cool I need to go get a tuner card.
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 19/11/2006 01:19
From the info on the replay website it sounds like the suggestions still work like the stand alone replay did in where it just picks shows from a genre you choose
.
Posted by: msaeger
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 19/11/2006 14:12
Well I got the 8.1 software from Tivo and it is much faster and appears to have fixed the bugs in the previous version.
Posted by: tfabris
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 19/11/2006 19:44
What?!? Us HD DirecTivo users waited two years for version 6, we just get it, and now you're telling us the SD units are at version 8? Argh.
Posted by: mlord
PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 19/11/2006 20:58
Okay people. Is it just MythTV, or perhaps the Hauppauge PVR-500 card, or do analog TV MPEG encoders all suck when it comes to picture quality?
On the strongest local channels (this is all over-the-air [OTA] stuff), the Myth box is just about as good quality as watching TV via the VCR's tuner.
On the medium strength channels, the VCR is definitely superior, but the Myth box does the job well enough to avoid headaches while viewing.
On the weakest "local" (70 ? miles away) channel, the Myth is incredibly blotchy and blinking, whereas the VCR image just looks somewhat fuzzy but good.
Unfortunately, this particular channel (WPBS) is the one we watch and tape from the most often by far. We have a dedicated high-gain UHF antenna and amplifier just for this one channel, as otherwise it doesn't even show up at all.
I *think* I've told Myth to use the highest bitrate possible, though it's not entirely clear that it is doing so.
For the two digital ATSC (HD TV) channels, those are both fantastic quality as one would expect. The funny thing is, WPBS also has a digital transmitter, which we just get the slightest hint of.. so close, yet so far..
What to do.. ? (we already have the best antenna we could buy, on as high a tower as I'm willing to climb). I wonder if anyone makes really good parabolic UHF antennas?
Cheers
Posted by: Roger
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 19/11/2006 21:01
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the Myth is incredibly blotchy and blinking, whereas the VCR image just looks somewhat fuzzy but good.
Well, that'll be MPEG encoding artefacts for you. I have the same problem with the weaker channels here and my PVR-350 card.
Well, I say "have". I mean "had", because the caps on the card exploded, and I can't be bothered to either replace or fix it.
Posted by: mlord
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 19/11/2006 21:05
Yeah, definitely the MPEG encoding is doing the blotching. I wonder if there's a way to tell Myth to grab raw video from the card, rather than the pre-processed MPEG stream? I suppose I could get a dumber card. Mmm.. also wondering if Myth could then be told to save the full high bit rate capture, rather than compressing it.. ?
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Well, I say "have". I mean "had", because the caps on the card exploded, and I can't be bothered to either replace or fix it.
Ahh.. just the caps gone, you figure? Mmm.. I'd be interested in that card should you ever decide to bin it.
Posted by: mlord
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 25/11/2006 01:46
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Okay people. Is it just MythTV, or perhaps the Hauppauge PVR-500 card, or do analog TV MPEG encoders all suck when it comes to picture quality?
Okay, last night I got an old-style PVR-250 card off of eBay, and installed it alongside the PVR-500 card. MUCHO better picture quality with the PVR-250!
The PVR-500 sucks lemons on noisy signals. Tonight I just bought a second PVR-250 to install in place of the PVR-500. Anyone want a very nice dual-tuner Hauppauge PVR-500 NTSC card, which sucks lemons on weak signals but is otherwise very good?
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 05/12/2006 03:54
Okay, so this evening I took a spare 300GB drive off the stack, and installed XP-Pro, tons of drivers, and then the beta6 demo of SageTV on top of it all.
No program guide listings at all for anywhere in Canada, and the stupid @#$@^% thing forces me to choose a USA OTA location, so it can populate the channel list with zillions of channels that don't exist here. No way to delete a channel, though one can inactivate one (stays in the master list regardless).
The rest of it looks promising, but without usable listings, the whole point of SageTV kinda melts away. I put the Myth drive back in afterwards.
Hey Bruno.. how'd you get program listings for CBC, CTV etc.. ????
And how the heck do I get my PVR-250 34-button remote to function?
Cheers
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 05/12/2006 13:07
Mark, my advice is to try version 5 of SageTV first, just in case. I don't have any experience with version 6 unfortunately. It's entirely possible they simply broke something in the latest build.
Wiith other versions it was a simple setup to get Canadian data. Just type in the Canadian Postal Code where it asks for Zip/Postal code (I can't remember, but it might have been labeled as only Zip which could throw people off).
You can also find info on modifying the local lineup in the forums I believe.
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 05/12/2006 13:35
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Mark, my advice is to try version 5 of SageTV first, just in case. I don't have any experience with version 6 unfortunately. It's entirely possible they simply broke something in the latest build.
Wiith other versions it was a simple setup to get Canadian data. Just type in the Canadian Postal Code where it asks for Zip/Postal code (I can't remember, but it might have been labeled as only Zip which could throw people off).
I think I did enter a postal code, but it's time to try it all over again. I've got a second PVR-250 card here now, with a second remote etc.., so I'm going to connect that up and try a reinstall.
Once version 6 had been installed, I was unable to go back to version 5 -- just craps out with a java exception on startup. I guess their "uninstaller" doesn't really uninstall everything.
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: New to CableTV, considering Tivo; advice please? - 05/12/2006 16:13
Ahh.. got it. On the first screen I had to select Antenna (check), but for the program guide one has to first select Cable instead of Antenna/OTA/whatever, and this then brings up another menu of cable companies, with "Antenna" at the top. Logical.
I guess that was one of those "violates good UI design principles" things that Bruno once referred to in another thread!
The only OTA channel missing from the program guide seems to be OMNI.2, which is a fairly newish (last year) OTA channel here in the Ottawa area. Maybe it'll show up there someday.
The Hauppauge remote also now works for me, after reinstalling the Hauppauge stuff, and then SageTV v6beta, and then rebooting (lots of reboots with the MS stuff..).
Next up: see if the power-management (auto suspend/resume) is any better than with Linux, and see if SageTV can be taught to find/use my digital tuner (I need to pull down a plugin or something for the hdhomerun).
If all that works, then it's time to see if MS will permit me to "activate" my legit XP-Pro license on that particular box..
Or maybe grab another 300MB disk from the stack, and do the whole shebang again with SageTV for Linux -- except they don't have a free trial version for that, so it's a bit of a crapshoot going that route.
-ml
Posted by: msaeger
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 05/12/2006 21:30
How much do you want for the PVR-500 card ?
Posted by: mlord
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 06/12/2006 03:42
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How much do you want for the PVR-500 card ?
Just make me an offer that I cannot refuse, and it's yours!
Posted by: msaeger
Re: PC TV Tuner: just not good enough - 06/12/2006 12:47
How about 75 USD ?
Posted by: mlord
SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 06/12/2006 21:18
Another lack-of progress report.
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The only OTA channel missing from the program guide seems to be OMNI.2
Which is quite odd, since it *is* in the DataDirect listings from zap2it, where one can also find the HD channel listings as well.
SageTV is totally clueless about OTA HD in Canada -- no listings, and no way to even add the channels to the local Antenna line-up. Ugh.. frustratingly close to being a good product, and then they fsck up on the very thing that's triggered me to "go PVR" in the first place!!
Heck, even my HD tuner, the hdhomerun gizmo, "almost works" in SageTV. It does tune channels after some coercing, but the volume is heavily attenuated, and the on-screen images have a pronounced green tint compared with the analog channels. No obvious way to fix any of that, either.
SageTV is also missing built-in commercial-skip, which is 30% of the value of a PVR. Duh. It does seem to be available as a Windows-only add-in, but I tried that out and it didn't seem to do anything other than chew up a lot of CPU/disk bandwidth for no noticeable result.
SageTV half-works with power management -- it turns on the machine to do a scheduled recording (good), but doesn't turn it off again afterwards (duh). And the GUI just seems to lock up entirely after such an event.
* * *
So back to the other half-baked solution, MythTV. At least the OTA listings work for both analog and digital here in Canada, and the hdhomerun HD tuner works fine. Apparently commercial skipping is semi-integrated with Myth, but again doesn't do anything out of the box. Gotta dig into that eventually.
No support I can see for auto-power on/off in Myth, but Sage didn't really have it either, so nothing lost. Now that I'm back on Linux, I can probably script something up that will do the job ... eventually.
Cheers
Posted by: sein
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 07:33
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Apparently commercial skipping is semi-integrated with Myth, but again doesn't do anything out of the box.
For me, commercial skipping did 'work' out of the box, but it tends to give a lot of false positives on commercials. Maybe it needs some sort of tweaking.
Posted by: JBjorgen
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 11:49
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Another lack-of progress report...<snip>
This is why I have a TiVo
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 12:50
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Another lack-of progress report...<snip>
This is why I have a TiVo
Not useful to people outside of the USA (or UK?), though. We kinda want a working program guide for the area, and no ongoing subscription fees.
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 12:55
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Quote:
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Another lack-of progress report...<snip>
This is why I have a TiVo
Not useful to people outside of the USA (or UK?), though. We kinda want a working program guide for the area, and no ongoing subscription fees.
Oh, and last time I checked, TIVOs also did not do (1) auto-commerical skip, or (2) a mix of NTSC and ATSC. Apart from those two things, SageTV was pretty darned good, with many capabilities built-in (eg. Google Video browsing./playing) that just don't exist in TIVO.
I really wish Sage worked better with my HD setup, because I like SageTV and want to use it. But..
Cheers
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 13:06
TiVo does officially support Canada now, listings and all. But they don't sell any hardware here. And you're stuck paying up to $20 per month just for the listings data and their arbitrary decisions on what you can or can't do with what you record.
I don't mind a lack of automated commercial skip in SageTV. That's a post-processed procedure on any box so it can definitely be supplied with a plugin. I normally just use its built in manual skip features. Their jump time is configurable but I use the defaults: 10 sec and 2:30. This lets me jump commercial breaks very easily when watching recorded content.
Posted by: JBjorgen
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 13:36
Sorry Mark. That wasn't intended to be snarky.
What I should have said was that I realize you can do a lot of cooler stuff with other platforms, but I like my TiVo 'cause it just works all the time with no messing.
And with my lifetime membership, I don't pay for guide data either. Best of both worlds for me. Obviously YMMV.
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 14:57
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SageTV half-works with power management -- it turns on the machine to do a scheduled recording (good), but doesn't turn it off again afterwards (duh). And the GUI just seems to lock up entirely after such an event.
Ahh.. apparently this is a "feature" of the version 6 pre-release of SageTV --> the inability to go back into standby. The new RC1 (last night) can apparently be tweaked (two low-level config flags need to be set) to properly standby. Not tested yet.
Now if they could just get my HD tuners working correctly..
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 07/12/2006 15:00
If I were a true MS fan, and lived in the USA or didn't care about HD tv, then SageTV would be an awesome product too. Very easy to install, very little configuration of anything necessary, and it *just works* with a good interface and some great extras. At this point I would highly recommend it to anyone for analog TV use.
But their (O.T.A.) HD support outside of the USA is currently the biggest stumbling block.
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 10/12/2006 20:13
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Apparently commercial skipping is semi-integrated with Myth, but again doesn't do anything out of the box.
For me, commercial skipping did 'work' out of the box, but it tends to give a lot of false positives on commercials. Maybe it needs some sort of tweaking.
Ah. And right you are! It does process recorded shows automatically for commercial-skipping here, too. But not (slightly paused) "live TV" as SageTV claims to do. But certainly pretty good enough, I think.
So far I've seen one false positive (skipped 10 minutes of show -- there oughta be a limit on skipping somewhere, but the one in the Myth menus is ignored for "auto" skipping).
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: SageTV vs. MythTV: do two halves make a whole? - 19/12/2006 17:41
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No support I can see for auto-power on/off in Myth, but Sage didn't really have it either, so nothing lost.
I eventually did find this in the mythtv-setup menus for the backend. There's a whole GUI screen hiding in there under General to configure auto power on/off according to the recording/activity schedule.
I did have to write a couple of short shell scripts to mate with it, but it does appear to be doing unattended power on/off as needed now.
I also added a "minder" script to restart the backend whenever it dies -- so far it only dies when I muck about with the settings menu on the frontend software.
Last thing to still get working: the Hauppauge remote control. This was supposed to be the easiest, but so far..
Does anyone out there know how to burn a show to DVD *without* the commercials included? It automatically tags/skips them for regular playback inside myth, but I want to archive stuff to DVD without advertisements.
Cheers
-ml