Apple iPhone announced.

Posted by: frog51

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:14

html email bad for various reasons... let me see:

text offers security - you have some text and that's it
text is small - using html or having images is just bulk

actually, for me the security is the biggie, so I'll stop now:-)

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:19

Quote:
html email bad for various reasons... let me see:

text offers security - you have some text and that's it
text is small - using html or having images is just bulk

actually, for me the security is the biggie, so I'll stop now:-)

Yep, I agree with that, but honestly, I've never gotten a virus from an html email... as far as I know. Do you also turn Java off when you browse?

- Jon

Posted by: loren

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:19

Wow, you guys are some jaded mofo's to not be excited by how much this thing pushes the envelope. Even if it's not for you and you wouldn't buy one. I mean come on, that thing is a technological marvel. The interface alone...

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:27

Quote:

I get a lot of newsletters and stuff that I'd love to read on my PDA. I don't understand the negative view you guys have regarding html in email. Ok, I don't SEND mail using html - I hate it when people do that. But it's nice to have newsletters and notifications in html... What am I not getting?

Well, think about the reasons you dislike getting HTML email from others. That's why HTML email is bad.

For newsletters etc. that I read via email, there's usually a text-only version. For times where the HTML version is preferable, all I need is a link to the HTML version in the text-only email. Then, it's my CHOICE to change from viewing text (in an email application) to viewing HTML (in a web browser), rather than having the sender decide for me, wasting space in my Inbox in the process.

It comes down to personal preference, of course, and I'll admit it's pretty quixotic to fight this battle with the millions of Outlook and Hotmail users in the world... But I do think the Internet would be a better place if email were limited to text and the occasional non-HTML file attachment.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:34

I found another dent... The screen is only 320x480 (or 480x320 if you prefer). With a pixel density of 160dpi, that's a physical size of 2x3 inches (any larger and there would be portability issues considering this is primarily a phone). The screen on the otherwise super-fugly Nokia N800 internet tablet thingy is physically larger but a very nice 800x480. The Nokia unit is about 3cm longer and 1.4cm wider and 2 - 7 mm thicker. It would still have been nice to see a 200dpi screen (400x600) on the iPhone.

Maybe for the second revision we'll see higher resolution and OLED.

Like Loren stated though, impressive. If someone is looking for a $600 phone, this is really hard to pass up. Of course we still have the same crappy provider contracts and ugly monthly bills to keep up with.

This thing is a lot sexier than any of the fakes and mockups that were shown/rumored over the past year.

Posted by: andy

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:37

Quote:

OS X

All the power and sophistication of the world’s most advanced operating system — OS X — is now available on a small, handheld device

Does that thing really run OS X or just some massively cut down distant cousin of OS X ?

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:40

Of course it's impressive; a true technological marvel. But others had already said that and I didn't feel the need to AOL them. The fact is, all of those envelope-pushing aspects need to come together to make a phone that I'll feel comfortable using, and I can't see that happening without a real keyboard. Typing on the ~2 inch keyboard on my Treo is hard at first, but gets a lot easier because the keys are raised. Trying to type on the same size "virtual keyboard" on an iPhone seems like a nightmare that no predictive/corrective input engine can avoid.

This is definitely a good first step, and will force the other manufacturers to innovate pretty quickly. All things being equal, I'd prefer to have an Apple phone in my pocket. I just don't think this is that phone.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 18:48

Quote:

Of course it's impressive; a true technological marvel. ... I just don't think this is that phone.

AOL.

Quote:
As far as wifi, see this...

Sweet. That certainly makes it better. Cingular has been known to rip wifi out of phones, and I didn't notice it when reading the live updates. That said, affordable 3G data beats the pants of wifi.

Matthew

Posted by: robricc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 19:06

Quote:
That said, affordable 3G data beats the pants of wifi.

I don't think Cingular can be blamed for the lack of HSDPA support in the iPhone. Also, Cingular's unlimited data plan is $39 per month for PDA devices... not $80. That still a bit high for my tastes, but I have unlimited data from Cingular for $19 because they think I have a non-PDA phone.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 19:10

The restrictions I remember with the ROKR was that the iTunes component wouldn't deal with more then 100 songs, to try and prevent the ROKR from eating into the iPod sales. The majority of iPods sold are the lower end flash based ones, so a phone that could be expanded into their range would be a threat.

Now that the phone is 100% apple controlled, they don't have a problem with this. I'm betting the Motorola alliance was one to allow Apple to learn the phone business a bit before jumping in with both feet. Similar to how Microsoft worked with Sega on the Dreamcast before going ahead with the XBox.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 19:16

Quote:
It looks like a beautiful device, but putting out a smartphone in june with only EDGE data, only on Cingular, is kind of craptastic.

Craptastic only here in the US. I'm sure Apple was looking at the 82% market share GSM phones have worldwide when they made that decision. The US isn't the market phone manufacturers normally target, since people here don't upgrade quite as often, and we have so many different wireless "standards" to deal with.

It really is a shame to think the US market isn't leading in the wireless technology space, but much like our crappy internet service, landmass and political lobbying has allowed other countries to pass us by.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 19:23

Quote:
Also, Cingular's unlimited data plan is $39 per month for PDA devices... not $80.

Right, but you need a $40 data plan. My sprint plan is $30 a month, and has more minutes than I use every month and unlimited handset data. (Tethering is not allowed, technically) Even if you couldn't get on the sero plan, a standard plan is $40 plus $15 for handset data for any phone, not just stupid phones.

Matthew

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 19:29

Quote:
Craptastic only here in the US. I'm sure Apple was looking at the 82% market share GSM phones have worldwide when they made that decision.

Right, but cingular is rolling out UMTS. Maybe not as fast as they could be, but it's available in some areas.

Matthew

Posted by: furtive

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 20:23

There is a load of stuff about the iPhone on Apples website already. Interestingly, it crashes my IE7 so I can't only look at it using Firefox

Posted by: loren

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 22:18

Just watching the stream, and at around 24 minutes in Steve actually says that they'll do 3G in the future.

"...plan to make 3g phones and all sorts of amazing things in the future"

I've read a few comments saying part of the reason they didn't go with 3G might be battery life. I'd guess it's partially that, lack of Cingular 3G coverage, and possibly the potential city wide wifi networks. Here in SF soon enough, you won't need the EDGE or 3G... we'll have Google/Earthlink city wide wifi.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/01/2007 23:58

he fact is, all of those envelope-pushing aspects need to come together to make a phone that I'll feel comfortable using, and I can't see that happening without a real keyboard.

Am I the only one who just wants a phone that lets me talk to people once in a while -- and nothing more than that?

Probably so. Sigh...

tanstaafl.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 00:21

Quote:
Am I the only one who just wants a phone that lets me talk to people once in a while -- and nothing more than that?

Probably so. Sigh...

tanstaafl.

No, you're probably not. But then, what's the problem? Just get one. They're out there. When I switched to T-Mobile, I got a phone free that was just that: nothing but a basic phone. It seems like every time a feature-rich, do everything phone comes out, people complain about the fact that it's more than a phone. I really don't understand that. It isn't like there aren't simple options. If you don't like this type of phone, don't buy it. It not like added options on $10 phones keep people from making a simple phone call.

That said, I think the iPhone looks great, but it's not for me. I have a nice Japanese import Toshiba that I'm plenty happy with, and don't need the features that the iPhone offers. Damn fine looking phone, though.

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 00:26

If you guys/gals haven't seen it, here's the keynote: http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/j47d52oo/event/

- Jon

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 01:31

tanstaafl: Amen. My StarTac never crashed like my Treo 650 does all too often. It was 100% reliable.

loren: Amen, also. iPhone is finally the dream of convergence come true. 21st century has finally arrived.

I'm surprised everyone isn't amazed by the interface. Judging by the vids on Apple's site, there are some nice things there (besides crashing both my browsers constantly). Velocity to "flick" a list upward, the left/right iPod menu structure used in PDA style, etc. And cover art browsing looks brilliant, even coming from me who thinks cover art is a total waste.

Too bad I couldn't load the virtual keyboard video because I agree that using the Treo is much better. But, the world will probably find virtual keyboard to be the winner.

Cingular is clearly the only American carier that matters anymore. Only they have the Treo 680 ("for average people") and Treo 750 (3G internet). Now they have iPhone. Goodbye to all RAZR's and rip off Kytanaa's. Goodbye to Nextel push-to-talk, Verizon's unreliability, Sprint's malicious incompetence, and T-Mobile's downright unimportance. Cingular wins.

Posted by: peter

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 08:43

I expect even Hugo can't spill the beans, but I'd love to know whether this thing's internal codename was "Newton 2"...

And that wasn't meant to be snide -- a Newton made out of C21st technology would be a great product. If that's what Iphone is, I'm all in favour.

Peter

Posted by: frog51

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 12:37

Yup - I use NoScript in firefox. But to be fair my job means I have become very jaded. I still love cutting edge stuff, but only until it becomes a good target for the black hats, and starting off with MS, html stuff etc means it is already asking for trouble.

And I'm with Tanstaafl - all I want from a phone is good reception and battery life, even though I do use the camera in mine to moblog...cos it's there and I couldn't get this type of phone without a camera.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 14:51

Speculative, but...

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/09/iphone-will-not-allow-user-installable-applications/

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 15:20

Yes, I manage the AP hardware team (ie the people who work on the non-RF bits). Great it see it in public finally, I've had units around on my desk for many months now - mostly taken to pieces

Hugo

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 15:23

Real OSX. Same source tree.

Hugo
(who has to keep re-reading his messages to ensure that he stays within the guidelines as to what he's allowed to say!)

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 15:36

Quote:
Real OSX. Same source tree.

I hate to quibble with the man behind my favorite geeky toy who now works at my favorite geeky company, and I know you probably can't respond with too much detail... Still, I don't think that "Real OSX" and "same source tree" are mutually inclusive (or exclusive for that matter.) Two products that come from the same source tree can be very different, as we saw with the Rio Karma and empegcar v3 builds. "Real OSX" to me means I can copy the Photoshop or iTunes applications from my Mac and load it onto my iPhone. That is of course a ridiculous notion, but it's what I think when I read "real OSX." I would have liked to hear more clarity coming out of MacWorld about what exactly this OSX version is, what it will and won't be able to do, etc., but calling it "real OSX" without qualification seems to be writing a mighty big check.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 15:52

Congrats!

Now how do I get one as a beta tester before June? :-)

Seriously, I love the UI and it seems like it's fantastic at most things that matter to me. I'm not thrilled with the email support (I'd like to see some kind of tight Gmail integration), and I'm suspicious about the general lack of hard buttons. I'm also curious if you can pull the thing out of your pocket and, by feel, figure out which side goes to your ear.

Another intriguing question is the extent to which the iPhone will support VoIP, whether over EDGE or WiFi. It's got all the hardware. All it needs is the software.

The biggest question, of course, is the extent to which you can develop and install third-party apps. Given that Google already has a J2ME app for Gmail, they'd presumably be willing to do something custom for the iPhone as well. They might even hook it in to Google Talk, including voice, as would Skype and others, if given the chance.

Other random thoughts: the side of the iPhone has what looks to be some kind of MicroSD slot. It might just be a long-skinny button, for all I can tell from the Apple web site. Expandable memory would certainly be a feature. Another interesting question is how much of that 4GB or 8GB is actually available for storage and how much is consumed by the operating system. Also, there's no indication that the battery can be replaced. I tend to burn through a cel-phone battery in 18 months. This phone, with the extra features, might destroy a battery in a year.

EDIT: it's not a MicroSD slot. It's a volume button.

Of course, what I *really* want is something more along the lines of the RAZR, in terms of form factor and all that. I'd give up a lot of the coolness of the iPhone in return for something small and simple.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 16:37

Quote:
Of course, what I *really* want is something more along the lines of the RAZR, in terms of form factor and all that. I'd give up a lot of the coolness of the iPhone in return for something small and simple.

Without the sucky Motorola software, I assume.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 16:40

Hopefully "Real OSX" means that you won't run into most of the same problems porting from OSX to the Apple phone than you would porting from Windows to the versions of Windows for smart phones. Example: I just talked to a guy (someone not within Microsoft, this was outside of MS) who said that the compact Windows versions they use for smart phones don't support any right-to-left languages at all. They had to use a third party tool to to get Arabic to work.

Posted by: DLF

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 16:48

WORST ... FIRMWARE ... EVER.

I shouldn't say that, since I work at a close partner of Mot's, but come on people.

Posted by: DLF

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 16:49

Quote:
There is a load of stuff about the iPhone on Apples website already. Interestingly, it crashes my IE7 so I can't only look at it using Firefox

That's funny; crashed my Firefox 2, but did fine in IE7. Hmm.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:22

Motorola hasn't written decent phone firmware since the StarTac. My biggest problem is the lousy contact book design.

Posted by: Folsom

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:29

Quote:
Motorola hasn't written decent phone firmware since the StarTac. My biggest problem is the lousy contact book design.

I have one of their new 3G razrs, and the phonebook is much improved over their old ones.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:40

Yeah? Can you have a contact with multiple numbers now? (As opposed to multiple contacts with the same name.)

Posted by: cushman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:45

Quote:
Yeah? Can you have a contact with multiple numbers now? (As opposed to multiple contacts with the same name.)

Yes, right direction pad when on a contact will cycle between the multiple numbers (displaying icon for work/home/mobile).

Posted by: Folsom

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:49

On my phone pressing the center of the dpad while on a contact brings up all the numbers. At least four numbers can be entered. Also, email addresses are in the list if you want to send a message.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:51

The standard RAZR has what you want. You can change the mode where multiple contacts, with the same name, are rendered on one line of the contact list. Left/right arrows let you select the different dialing icon. Kludgy, but it works.

The new Moto KRZR is exactly what I want, from a hardware perspective, but the software is clearly just a derivative of the existing RAZR software, which pretty much sucks. As such, I'm going to stick it out for six months to try holding an iPhone in my hand and see how it feels.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 17:51

Nice. Only took them five years to get basic year 2001 functions.

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 18:43

Oooooh.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonbauer/353066118/

- Jon

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 19:18

Heh...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cjmartin/352863305/

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 19:51

Quote:
Heh...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cjmartin/352863305/

To be expected I suppose, although it could all go in reverse if the first user reviews are less than complimentary. Glad to see RIM are the worst off.... why their POS plastic monstrosities are so popular I'll never know... and from listening to sysadmin guys at work, the server side of it isn't too good either.

Posted by: Cris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 20:11

Quote:
...why their POS plastic monstrosities are so popular I'll never know...

THANKS! Now I have lemsip all over my previously pristine apple bluetooth keyboard

Cheers

Cris.

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 20:18

Sorry, I should have added the word "kernel".

I've read some people getting a warped idea that it's related to OSX on a mac in the same way that windows mobile is related to windows XP (ie - not at all). As Mr Jobs noted in the keynote, it's OSX on a phone including nice things like core animation and proper network stacks.

Hugo

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 20:26

Quote:
Sorry, I should have added the word "kernel".

I've read some people getting a warped idea that it's related to OSX on a mac in the same way that windows mobile is related to windows XP (ie - not at all). As Mr Jobs noted in the keynote, it's OSX on a phone including nice things like core animation and proper network stacks.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. Looking forward to more details as they emerge, especially about the prospect of 3rd party apps and so forth. I just really, really wish there were a real keyboard, or that "TenGo" input. Touchscreen keyboard on a phone makes about as much sense as touchscreen controls on an in-car music player (yet everyone does that, too.)

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 21:11

If nothing else, there's always Bluetooth. Maybe the iPhone will work with something like the Bluetooth iFrog one-handed keyboard.

And, is it just me, or does it seem like the "automatic" pairing for Bluetooth headsets sounds like a security vulnerability?

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 21:24

Yeah, but built-in keyboards make more sense for a lot of smartphone-like applications. Who wants to deal with an add-on keyboard when you want to type in a new calendar entry, contact, or respond to an email?

I know you prefaced with "if nothing else" but it's really not much of a consolation. People like buttons and keys. They work.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 22:05

Quote:
Speculative, but...

Looks to be true. From Eddie Cue and Phil Schiller by way of Gizmodo:

Quote:
And like an iPod, it won't be an open system that people can develop for. Remember, this is both an iPod and a Phone.

Really unfortunate.

Matthew

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 22:21

Cisco Sues Apple for Trademark Infringement

http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2007/corp_011007.html?CMP=ILC-001

- Jon

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 22:36

I wouldn't use a Razr or any other Moto phone if it were given to me for free. Not even if a $100 bill was slipped in with it. Along with Samsung they're below the bottom of the barrel when it comes to UI.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 22:37

That doesn't mean 3rd party licensees won't be able to develop for it. And it doesn't mean users will not be able to download 3rd party content to install.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 10/01/2007 22:44

Quote:
That doesn't mean 3rd party licensees won't be able to develop for it. And it doesn't mean users will not be able to download 3rd party content to install.

I'm sure they will, for a fee. I for one am tired of every last company viewing my mobile phone as their cash cow. I'd be happy to pay apple for a cell phone, but I don't really think they need to make a cut of every application that gets sold for one.

Matthew

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 00:59

tonyc: I get the feeling that, somehow, virtual keyboard will supplant Treo and Blackberry (and all the imposters) physical keyboards. Probably just because Apple's behind it. Maybe in the same way that people liked knobs and buttons before iPod; now they are comfortable with the touch wheel (even through a skin, ugh).

jbauer: re: the copyright infringement. I always thought the old iPhone rumors could never come true for this very reason. I remember iPhone from way back. It was the first "internet phone" app I tried (if I remember back correctly).

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 01:05

Quote:
(snip) jbauer: re: the copyright infringement. I always thought the old iPhone rumors could never come true for this very reason. I remember iPhone from way back. It was the first "internet phone" app I tried (if I remember back correctly).

I'm sure that Apple and Cisco will come to an agreement (maybe one in which Apple pays Cisco royalties, maybe not). It's kinda funny because Apple has been notorious for their copyright lawsuits (ie: usage of "pod") and this really is karma biting them in their arses...

- Jon

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 01:17

Is it just me, or is anyone else disappointed that they didn't put a GPS in this thing? I suppose they could add bluetooth support for one later. It just seems like it'd be awfully useful for it to automatically know your location when browsing for movies, weather, traffic, gas prices, and other points of interest.

Not to mention that it'd be a nice handheld gps. I can imagine going to geocaching.com, selecting a cache and having the coordinates automatically load as a waypoint. That'd be sweet.

Hugo, O though great iphone hardware guy, art thou open to suggestions?

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 01:19

Quote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else disappointed that they didn't put a GPS in this thing? I suppose they could add bluetooth support for one later. It just seems like it'd be awfully useful for it to automatically know your location when browsing for movies, weather, traffic, gas prices, and other points of interest.

Not to mention that it'd be a nice handheld gps. I can imagine going to geocaching.com, selecting a cache and having the coordinates autmatically load as a waypoint. That'd be sweet.

I can't find anything on the Apple website about it, but this article http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/01/09/ap3314961.html says it has it...

"The phone supports Wi-Fi and Bluetooth wireless technology and can detect location from Global Positioning System satellites."

- Jon

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 01:28

Ah. Thanks. I suppose I just assumed that it approximated a location from the tower you were connected to. Hopefully we'll see a geocaching widget then.

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 03:30

Quote:
he fact is, all of those envelope-pushing aspects need to come together to make a phone that I'll feel comfortable using, and I can't see that happening without a real keyboard.

Am I the only one who just wants a phone that lets me talk to people once in a while -- and nothing more than that?

Probably so. Sigh...

tanstaafl.

No you arn't.
I do find Apple's item interesting, as a pocket trophy kind of thing.

Posted by: sein

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 05:31

The new iPhone looks amazing. After 4 years of thinking nothing could beat a Treo, this may be what I will get next (depending on UK price). I was initially skeptical about the virtual keyboard. But after watching a clip of the keynote where Steve taps a message swiftly with just his index finger makes me think with two thumbs it may be just as fast (or close enough) as my Palm favourite.

Hugo, is there an official word on whether anyone can write an app and run it on their iPhone? I have lots of great useful tools on my PalmOS phone and it really is a deal maker or breaker for me. I have to have my SSH, IRC, Navigation, VoIP, C64 Emulator etc in my pocket. Engadget says no, but I don't believe them.

I'm also looking forward to the future iPhone mini or iPhone nano. Something smaller and a little more budget friendly would be very popular I'm sure. iPhone shuffle would be interesting. When you press dial it can call one of your contacts at random!

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 10:54

Quote:
Quote:
he fact is, all of those envelope-pushing aspects need to come together to make a phone that I'll feel comfortable using, and I can't see that happening without a real keyboard.

Am I the only one who just wants a phone that lets me talk to people once in a while -- and nothing more than that?

Probably so. Sigh...

tanstaafl.

No you arn't.
I do find Apple's item interesting, as a pocket trophy kind of thing.

I'm another. While I'm sure it’s a great device most “do everything" things, are usually a mass of compromises. Generally single function devices can concentrate on doing one thing well.

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 11:16

Am I the only one who wants his PC to just be a word processor? I mean...what's with the internet and all this game crap. I just want to type stuff. It does so many things it's confusing. Maybe I'll just go back to the typewriter...they got it right back then. Does one thing and does it well. And nice clanky keys....not all these dumb buttons to click on.

Oh well. At least it's a nice desktop trophy...

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 12:09

Quote:
Am I the only one who wants his PC to just be a word processor? I mean...what's with the internet and all this game crap. I just want to type stuff. It does so many things it's confusing. Maybe I'll just go back to the typewriter...they got it right back then. Does one thing and does it well. And nice clanky keys....not all these dumb buttons to click on.

Oh well. At least it's a nice desktop trophy...

OK, smart guy, why don't you invent a flying /boat/submarine/car that will win at drag racing, monster truck competitions, NASCAR and air races. Hey while you’re at it take on the space race and send it in orbit. It better make a damn good cup good cup of coffee too.

Oh and it better run on recycled farts or get 100 miles to gallon on French fry oil.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:11

Quote:
Quote:
Am I the only one who wants his PC to just be a word processor? I mean...what's with the internet and all this game crap. I just want to type stuff. It does so many things it's confusing. Maybe I'll just go back to the typewriter...they got it right back then. Does one thing and does it well. And nice clanky keys....not all these dumb buttons to click on.

Oh well. At least it's a nice desktop trophy...

OK, smart guy, why don't you invent a flying /boat/submarine/car that will win at drag racing, monster truck competitions, NASCAR and air races. Hey while you’re at it take on the space race and send it in orbit. It better make a damn good cup good cup of coffee too.

Oh and it better run on recycled farts or get 100 miles to gallon on French fry oil.

Not at all the same argument. I think he was dead on re: the complaints people make about devices like this. Asking for separate devices to do these things is like having one computer for email, one for the internet, one for viewing documents, one for... and so on.

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:24

Yeah...definitely no offense meant. Just trying to make a point with parody.

The funny thing is, I remember people saying things just like that in the early days of the PC. Why? Because it wasn't easy and intuitive enough to use and it didn't do enough extra to make a difference. Did that make the PC a bad idea? No, it just made it immature. Methinks many of the phone-only crowd will have second thoughts as the technology matures.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:32

Quote:
Asking for separate devices to do these things...

But that's where I think you're missing what these people are saying. They don't want the seperate devices or the combined device. They just want a phone. That's the reason that the satirical response doesn't apply to this situation.

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:43

Quote:

Not at all the same argument. I think he was dead on re: the complaints people make about devices like this. Asking for separate devices to do these things is like having one computer for email, one for the internet, one for viewing documents, one for... and so on.

Your argument is valid that these tasks are suitable for one device. However when you really want to have quality on any task you need a device designed to do that task best. Phone, GPS and music replay are fairly diverse functions. I don’t think there will ever be a product that does all these things better than the top of the line device designed specifically for just one of these functions. For example: the iPhone does not have the storage, eases of use or probably audio quality of the top of the line iPod.

For the average person this may be OK. Just as the average PC suites most people for gaming, graphics or word processing. However I like quality (when I can afford it). That’s why I have an Empeg .

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:53

But it looks like the iPhone is a much better MP3 player than all other flash based players, including Apple's own Nano. It's just not as small.

It looks to be a far better phone than most other phones out there, including what anyone might think of as top of the line. People thought the RAZR was top of the line - every version of it sucks. Keys so flat they might as well be an LCD (no tactile feedback), typical poor Motorola interface... What current model phone do people consider tops?

I don't know of any mobile at this time that is not a combination of functions. And the iPhone, unlike most of these other products, actually seems to do each function very well. Certainly this is shown in the demonstrations. This analysis may fall flat on its face once units are used day to day and receive in depth reviews. But going by the demos and product info, it looks to be practically "the best" in each task. Counter to the argument being made here.

So you've got your Space Shuttle Nascar coffee maker.

EDIT: The iPhone isn't a handheld GPS unit. The Google Maps feature is an internet feature and doesn't track your location. You just search for places like on the standard Google Maps web site.

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 13:54

Quote:
Quote:
Asking for separate devices to do these things...

But that's where I think you're missing what these people are saying. They don't want the seperate devices or the combined device. They just want a phone. That's the reason that the satirical response doesn't apply to this situation.

For me, I have varying standards for each. Any O’L phone will do however I like a quality music replay. In a GPS I want it designed for car navigation and voice guidance. I don’t need an outdoor type GPS but others may like that better than car navigation. When you get a combined device you have to tune the device functions to the middle of the road so it can meet most people’s needs. For people that need more in one area they will probably opt out of a combination device.

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:03

Quote:
But it looks like the iPhone is a much better MP3 player than all other flash based players, including Apple's own Nano. It's just not as small.

It looks to be a far better phone than most other phones out there, including what anyone might think of as top of the line. People thought the RAZR was top of the line - every version of it sucks. Keys so flat they might as well be an LCD (no tactile feedback), typical poor Motorola interface... What current model phone do people consider tops?

I don't know of any mobile at this time that is not a combination of functions. And the iPhone, unlike most of these other products, actually seems to do each function very well. Certainly this is shown in the demonstrations. This analysis may fall flat on its face once units are used day to day and receive in depth reviews. But going by the demos and product info, it looks to be practically "the best" in each task. Counter to the argument being made here.

So you've got your Space Shuttle Nascar coffee maker.

I don't think my 40 Gig of music will load on to the phone like it will on an iPod. So IMO it’s not the best. "The Best" is subjective and needs/mileage will vary from person to person. If everyone agreed on what is best then we’d all drive the same car.

It does sound like a great product. I just don’t want one, sorry.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:12

Am I the only one that thinks the iPhone isn't really a competitor for the Treo and the Blackberry? I'd be very interested to hear how it's supposed to work in a business environment, which is where I imagine most of those devices live.

People here are going to call me crazy and an Apple hater, but am I the only one that thinks, based on the market segment Apple will likely try to appeal to, that the primary competitor for the iPhone is....the Sidekick?

*ducks*

Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:40

Quote:
There is a load of stuff about the iPhone on Apples website already. Interestingly, it crashes my IE7...

That's because Jobs wants you to use Safari. Didn't he make that clear in his keynote?

Posted by: cushman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:50

Quote:
People here are going to call me crazy and an Apple hater, but am I the only one that thinks, based on the market segment Apple will likely try to appeal to, that the primary competitor for the iPhone is....the Sidekick?

Apple is probably targeting style-tech guys who run around with both a Nano and RAZR or SLVR. Early adopters who will shell out the money for the style and combined functionality. The Sidekick is more suited for messaging, something that I don't think the iPhone looks like it will do as well as a keyboarded phone. I think the Treo is safe(ish) for now, since it doesn't look like the iPhone will have the same user-expandability capabilities that the Treo does. There are quite a few Palm or Windows apps that the Treo or other smartphones can run that will not be available on the iPhone. For some people these apps are things they cannot live without.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:56

Quote:
Apple is probably targeting style-tech guys who run around with both a Nano and RAZR or SLVR.

That just doesn't seem like a big market to me. Besides, Jobs was clearly aiming this at the "phones with a keyboard" market. One of his slides showed how it was inconvenient to have a keyboard take up the bottom third of the device, and it had shots of a Treo and Blackberry and a couple others.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 14:59

You can't fit 40GB of music onto any Flash player. I can't fit my 100GB of music onto an 80GB iPod either. I think all iPods have some interface issues, but I still think they're the best. They suck less than everyone else (still) out there.

My definition of the "best" comes from a UI perspective. Assuming for a second any player you're going to compare can play the tracks. The iPod products have generally accepted decent quality sound output, management with iTunes is really second to none (I suppose that's also my opinion, but i've not heard of anything yet that rivals the combination).

I will concede that for it to be classified as a truly great phone we will need some tests beyond interface and features like visual voice mail. Call quality and signal strength along with battery life (real tests) will be very important. But right now it looks very good on paper and in live presentations.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that it's the best. I just think it's unfair to say it's not going to be good (or great) at anything because it includes the functions of many (possible) discrete products. Some of those discrete products in my opinion make no sense what-so-ever to exist in a discrete form. Like a discrete WiFi hand-held web browser (like Nokia 770 or N800). Same thing as having a discrete word processing machine (those did exist). Word processing on a PC is a lot better than any discrete device can ever be, if for no other reason than it's not discrete. You're able to leverage off everything else to enhance the word processing experience and functionality. Same with the iPhone.

The different functions will allow you to leverage off each other in ways that simple weren't possible or practical with so many other devices. Give this a couple of product cycles and I think it will really change our concept of the portable communications/media device.

The traditional PDA was killed by the "smart phone" - I think this new class of product can obsolete the traditional smart phone more handily.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 15:16

Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks the iPhone isn't really a competitor for the Treo and the Blackberry? I'd be very interested to hear how it's supposed to work in a business environment, which is where I imagine most of those devices live.

Why wouldn't it work in a business? I was using OS X native apps like Mail, Address Book, and iCal just as a person would use Outlook at HP with no issues. People would send me meeting requests, I'd respond, and our calendars would show them. And I never had to bug any of the IT guys to change the server. I think the only requirement was a version of Exchange from this century. I don't see why the iPhone would decide to remove the business support the bigger OS X apps already have.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 15:45

Quote:
Quote:
Asking for separate devices to do these things...

But that's where I think you're missing what these people are saying. They don't want the seperate devices or the combined device. They just want a phone. That's the reason that the satirical response doesn't apply to this situation.

I'm not missing what they're saying, I'm dismissing it. And I'm doing it because it's pointless. People are complaining because a product exists that isn't what they want. Boo hoo. Don't buy it. Buy the $10 phone that pretty much just makes phone calls. It's like people being happy with their Super NES but whining because the PS3 exists.

Guess what: there are phones without tons of features. Look on Ebay, they are legion. Buy one. Problem solved.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 16:05

Quote:
but am I the only one that thinks, based on the market segment Apple will likely try to appeal to, that the primary competitor for the iPhone is....the Sidekick?

It certainly seems like a sidekick with much better UI, hardware and software. Integrated IM? Check. Email? Check. Web Browsing with a novel trick to make it useable? Check. Closed Platform? Check. Stuck with one lousy carrier? Check.

Yes, it's better than a sidekick, but it's definitely a similar product. The value of a smartphone or treo is that they're smart and can "learn" new tasks by installing new software.

I'll probably own one in a few revisions if the price comes down. However, it certainly has room for improvement, and it's all from the management side, not the hardware side.

Matthew

Posted by: andy

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 16:19

Quote:

In a GPS I want it designed for car navigation and voice guidance. I don’t need an outdoor type GPS but others may like that better than car navigation. When you get a combined device you have to tune the device functions to the middle of the road so it can meet most people’s needs. For people that need more in one area they will probably opt out of a combination device.

I agree with you general argument that convergence tends to lead to compromised devices. I think you have picked the wrong example to illustrate your point though.

Arguably the best GPS in car navigation device is TomTom. As well as shipping their dedicated TomTom unit they also ship the software for PDAs and SmartPhones.

The software on the PDAs/SmartPhones works just as well as it does on the dedicated device. Because the dedicated device does not have hardware buttons (apart from the power switch), the interface is exactly the same whether you are using the dedicated device or running it on a PDA/SmartPhone*.

In some ways the non-dedicated version is even better as it integrates with the address book on the phone/PDA.

* though the version that they ship for non-touch screen SmartPhones is obviously a little different

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 16:23

Quote:
Yeah...definitely no offense meant. Just trying to make a point with parody.
.

OK cool, but I’m still going to wait for the iNASCAR/Shuttle/sub/coffee maker

Come on we’ve had the technology for years…..

http://www.vttbots.com/fs1_berthing.html

Posted by: Redrum

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 16:36

Quote:

In some ways the non-dedicated version is even better as it integrates with the address book on the phone/PDA.

I do like that convergence.

OK I am pretty much a hypocrite. I have a GPS/PDA that plays music files and I do like it. However when I want to REALLY listen to music I’ll play my home stereo or the empeg. And if I REALLY needed to have voice navigation on a daily basis I would get a better GPS (one that reads off street names). So for me in the GPS/PDA/music area compromise is OK, most of the time.

I think it boils down to the fact I hate phones. I need more conversations that start out with “Hey you just won a…. “ rather than “Hey could you do x for me…”

Posted by: Cris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 19:11

I'll buy one when you can get TomTom for it, and if the camera proves to be good enough to take quick snapshots with. My brother has got one of those new Sony mobiles and I am quite impressed with the picture quality for something it's size. I think I would need more than 8Gb, 16 is a good number

But I won't be buying a Gen 1 version that's for sure!

I think that would mean I pretty much only ever need one device with me for day to day use, I most functions on my XDA at the moment, but I must admit it's a total mare as a phone.

I think what apple is doing is very brave, I hope the price point is right here in Europe and it will be available on all networks. iPod sales are not expanding as quickly (I don't think?) the market has to be nearing saturation, doesn't it?

I just hope the software works, as I'm sure the hardware will be near perfect

Cheers

Cris

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 20:36

Quote:
iPod sales are not expanding as quickly (I don't think?) the market has to be nearing saturation, doesn't it?

Sales for the 4th quarter 2006 haven't been released, but the other quarters in 2006 were higher then the same time in 2005. Doesn't look to be slowing down yet.

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 21:45

I got an ipod this xmas along with 5 other people in my office, considering there are only 20 people in it I'd say that's quite a hefty percentage... and we're all first time owners.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 21:53

I'll wager it doesn't have GPS, but we'll know for certain in June when the first one gets taken to bits and photographed for all the world to see. Meanwhile, cellular networks have gotten much better at doing geolocation. One handset can measure the relative signal strengths of all the different cellular base stations and use that to look up its location in a database (I'm simplifying, but not by too much). The upside of this is clear: extra functionality without needing extra hardware. The downside is training. Somebody has to wander around and measure what signal strengths are visible at which locations. As such, it's unlikely to be an announced feature any time soon.

As to this whole "just a phone" debate, it all boils down to who you are and what you do. I've got one of those awful Moto RAZRs, but I've got the calls I tend to make on speed dial (e.g., hold down the "4" key and it calls my home phone). That's fast and efficient. Will the iPhone come close? Probably not, but still worlds better than digging through the awful RAZR phone book. Likewise, it's clear that the Blackberry has gone through some insane amount of usability testing. Regular users can crank through their email fast. Did Apple focus just on eye candy or did they do serious usability work as well? We'll have to wait and see.

Based on today's NYT article, it looks like there will be third-party apps, but it will be a closed world, where Apple has to bless your app. This is similar, I suppose, to what you can get for iPods these days. That tends to work against many of the custom things you'd want, like an ssh client, but I'll bet somebody, somewhere figures out a way around it. At the end of the day, it's just a computer, and computers are general-purpose beasts.

Intriguing quote from that article:

Quote:
The device is not currently compatible with the faster 3G wireless data networks that are driving sharp gains in cellular revenues in the United States, although several Apple insiders said the phone could be upgraded to 3G with software if Apple later decides to do so.

Somebody tearing the hardware apart may find hints of the 3G support, if it's actually there, since 3G runs on a different frequency (right?).

Posted by: Cris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 22:03

Quote:
I'd say that's quite a hefty percentage... and we're all first time owners.

That's kind of my point, how much longer can that sort of growth go on for? Once you have an mp3 player how often do you replace it? And when you do replace it would you pay $600 (£600?) for it? Functions like the voicemail sound like they are dependant on the network supporting it, which could mean you would be tied to T-Mobile for example, not sure if that it a move I would be willing to make myself.

I can't wait to see what people like Nokia do about it! There has to be a reponse by the rest of the market to the iPod, and I mean the mp3 and mobile markets. I think everyone here has been waiting for a killer player with similar backing to the iPod, maybe this year will be the time? Or maybe this will be the end, if you have enough money you have to buy an apple?

I still don't think you can beat the Karma for music playback, I think it is a nice sideways step by apple away from the outdated and nasty iPod UI.

Cris.

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 11/01/2007 22:34

Quote:
I still don't think you can beat the Karma for music playback

Agreed, but having had the ipod for a couple of weeks now. I love the fact it 'just worked' with my Mac, it synced the subset of my music I wanted it to. All the podcasts I subscribe to transferred silently across. All whilst charging off its USB connection.

Quote:
I think it is a nice sideways step by apple away from the outdated and nasty iPod UI.

Now it's 'finally' got a search option it pretty much does everything I want. I loved my Karma, but the HD was just so damned unreliable. At least my cannibalised player (albeit with knackered keylock switch) will be finding a new home soon.

Posted by: mlord

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 02:52

Quote:
One handset can measure the relative signal strengths of all the different cellular base stations and use that to ...

More useful is for the handset/base-station to measure the time it takes for signals to pass between the two, and translate that directly into distance values. Plus lots of fudging for multipath etc.. but that's how it's really done.

Cheers

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 04:05

Multipath makes a mess of time-of-flight measurements, plus the low-level hardware doesn't necessarily export the information you want. Researchers working on location with GSM (short example paper) have been using signal strength instead.

Posted by: mlord

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 13:23

Quote:
Multipath makes a mess of time-of-flight measurements,

Ditto (in spades) for RSSI (aka. "signal strength").

Quote:
plus the low-level hardware doesn't necessarily export the information you want.

It pretty much *has to* for the system to work correctly in other ways.

Quote:
Researchers working on location with GSM (short example paper) have been using signal strength instead.

That's nice. But those of us who have actually *implemented* working systems just might have done things differently.

Cheers

Posted by: BAKup

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 13:25

I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me.

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/12/0430200.shtml

Posted by: sein

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 14:35

Quote:
I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me.

Yup, I just read that on Arstechnica as well which all stemed from the New York Times article DWallach linked to a few posts above.

Sucks really. Apple signed applications means no weird and wonderful oddball freeware or otherwise useful/fun/niche apps such as Palantir. I can understand their reasoning, but there has to be a better way. My phone hardly ever crashes and I have loads of junk on there!

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 15:01

Quote:
I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me.

I thought that Steve-o said that it would support widgets, didn't he? I don't think he said who would design those widgets, but I could have sworn he said it...

*edit*
Yeah, here's a couple quotes from Engadget's transcript, although they're still cryptic and I'm not sure whether the blogger was paraphrasing or if this is word for word. But Jobs tends to speak like this, which I find really annoying:

"We have widgets, it communicates with the internet over WiFi and EDGE -- you don't have to do anything, it connects to the WiFi seamlessly."

"Incredible new technology for entering text, a real browser on the phone, we can zoom in, Google maps, Widgets... it's the internet in your pocket for the first time ever. You can't really think about the internet without thinking about google."

So yeah, he drops the word "widgets" in there a couple times, but they seem out of place. It's like he's speaking a sentence and then randomly drops the word "widgets" for no apparent reason. He never explains what he means...

Posted by: peter

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 16:03

Quote:
It's like he's speaking a sentence and then randomly drops the word "widgets" for no apparent reason. He never explains what he means...

Sometimes he doesn't have to. Our resident Mac weenie was jumping with joy when Steve Jobs announced "visual voicemail" even though when questioned he had no idea what that feature would actually be.

Peter

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 16:08

Now that I've bothered to look up what that means, I'm rather impressed:

Quote:
An industry first, Visual Voicemail allows you to go directly to any of your messages without listening to the prior messages. So you can quickly select the messages that are most important to you.

The image looks like an email inbox where you can select which messages you want to listen to. Nice.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 17:22

I'm getting the idea that pretty much nobody here has actually watched the Jobs' presentation of the iPhone that was linked earlier. It makes clear a ton of the questions and guesses that are being bandied about.

Visual Voicemail is random access voicemail. That's one of the reasons that the iPhone will, initially, only be available on Cingular: to do the Visual Voicemail, they also need support from the provider.

Widgets work much as they do on any Mac, and Jobs shows off a number of them in the presentation. Stocks and weather, specifically, if I remember right.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 17:31

I know what a widget is. Everyone here knows what a widget is. The question is: who makes the widgets? What is the 3rd party development like?

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 17:32

The question about widgets isn't if they work, but if you can get new ones, and, if so, how do you get them on the phone? Must they be signed by Apple, or can you write your own?

Basically, can I write my own applications for the phone and will freeware be possible?

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 18:24

Quote:
I know what a widget is. Everyone here knows what a widget is. The question is: who makes the widgets? What is the 3rd party development like?

I wasn't just referring to the widgets, and I'm aware that everyone knows what they are. But people are, in general, talking about things in a way that implies they haven't watched the iPhone presentation, which made a ton of stuff clear.

As far as the widgets, though, it's the same as any Mac (it would seem). Anyone can make widgets. They're simple. But can you put them on the iPhone? Word is, no, at least not at first. Which is made clear by Steve Jobs' comments in the NYT.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 18:25

Quote:
The question about widgets isn't if they work, but if you can get new ones, and, if so, how do you get them on the phone? Must they be signed by Apple, or can you write your own?

Basically, can I write my own applications for the phone and will freeware be possible?

No. Which is what Steve Jobs said in the NYT interview. Which has already been linked.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 18:37

Right. Which sucks. And makes the "runs real MacOS X" pointless to the end user. And makes the utility of the phone itself much lower. It's great that it's got all this connectivity and nice UI, but if you can't get it to do what you want, who cares?

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 18:44

Jobs has now confirmed outright in two interviews that the iPhone is a closed platform and that the general public will not be able to develop for it nor install any random software.

As far as it being OS X, the empeg runs Linux, but you're not going to get far installing The Gimp on it. It being "OS X" doesn't mean it a "Desktop installationk of OS X." Not to mention it runs on a Samsung processor anyway and wouldn't be compatible with any Intel or PPC binaries.

Jobs went on to say that Apple would be selling/providing additional software, but that the software would not all be written by Apple.

This drammatically decreases the tech appeal of the phone. Not the sexiness mind you.

Posted by: loren

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 19:53

Quote:
This drammatically decreases the tech appeal of the phone. Not the sexiness mind you.

Agreed. Man, just imagine what devs could do with this thing if it at least had an open widget or plug-in architecture. The mind boggles.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 20:06

*edit*

I'm going to scratch my post here, and I wish I could delete all my posts in this thread because it's clear that I haven't been able to communicate my thoughts in a satisfactory way.

Instead, I would urge everyone to listen to Engadget's podcast #98 because I was surprised to hear that every single point they make, both good and bad are exactly what I have been thinking.

The only other question I had for the people posting in this thread is this: who thinks that the iPhone indicates a possible new platform for the iPod-only line? Is it a preview of the 6G iPod? Basically, I would love to see this exact device, with a hard drive, and without the space on either side of the screen. That was the exact product I was hoping for. Had that been the case, I would have sold my two-month-old Archos and made my first Apple purchase.

I also just want to say that even though it's barely being mentioned in the press, I was incredibly excited about the Apple TV. In fact, I just ordered one and the new airport extreme. So I've got some Apple products now.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 12/01/2007 20:21

Quote:
And now after we've sufficiently argued all of this, who wants to take bets that people will figure out ways to reliably install user-created widgets?

Keep in mind that there will be at least two different kinds of applications. Depending on what sort of DHTML / JavaScript support they provide in the browser, it might be possible to develop "limited" widgets that can be installed through the browser. That probably won't give you access to all the hardware's functionality, but it will get you a variety of things along the lines of stock tickers / weather gadgets / sports scores / etc.

You probably need a "native" app if you want to deal with the microphone, speaker, and the radios (beyond just making a TCP/IP connection to a web site somewhere). That's probably going to be Apple-and-friends only.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 03:23

Quote:
The only other question I had for the people posting in this thread is this: who thinks that the iPhone indicates a possible new platform for the iPod-only line? Is it a preview of the 6G iPod?

I think that goes without saying.

Personally, if forced to develop a taxonomy of Apple products, I would be likely to place the iPhone in the iPod family (or genus

). I think when the 6G comes out, we'll find that it's more or less an iPhone without the e-mail / web / telephony features.

I'm with you, though... When the 6G comes out looking like this (and I have no doubts that is exactly what will happen), I'll buy it so fast the clerk at the Apple store's head will spin. My iPod (5G) still has plenty of life in it, but luckily SWMBO is very supportive of my gadget fetish.

Posted by: cushman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 04:16

Quote:
Am I the only one who just wants a phone that lets me talk to people once in a while -- and nothing more than that?

Just for you...

Outlines all the cool features of the new iPhone.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 13:56

I would hope the next iPod rev while including a scren covering the entire unit would also include bluetooth and WiFi. Unlike the current slated specs for the iPhone, wireless sync should come standard. The ability to surf the iTunes store and buy tracks would also be pretty cool, though for me not a big deal (since I personally still purchase my music on CD). Internet audio streaming and movie streaming would be a must, if for nothing else than to preview clips and trailers of what you might want to buy. Then of course this could mean wireless sync and transfer between iPod and AppleTV.

It goes without saying they should pick up the new 100GB 1.8" drives as a minimum for their higher end model. 100-200GB of flash RAM would be better, but I don't think that's realistic for a few years still.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 13:59

Actually I want a phone that's just a phone too. But I want it to look just like the iPhone and have WiFi. Oh, and gobs of memory and music playback. And Bluetooth of course.

Hmm.. Sounds like the iPhone. Oh yeah, I want it to cost under $400 without a carrier contract. Damn.

Posted by: oliver

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 15:53

Quote:
Oh yeah, I want it to cost under $400 without a carrier contract.

That's what I'm wondering about. I'm not going to purchase a 2 year contract to get the phone @ 599, but does that mean the phone will be $1000 without a contact?

How far into June do you think it will take for eBay to get flooded with cheap brand new iPhone's?

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 17:45

Quote:
How far into June do you think it will take for eBay to get flooded with cheap brand new iPhone's?

Irrelevant, unless they're also unlocked. And even if they're unlocked (getting more difficult these days... just try to get a Vodafone / SoftBank 904SH) you still won't be able to use the Visual (random access) Voicemail unless you're on Cingular. In which case, you don't need it unlocked.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 18:02

There's no sense in releasing a quad-band phone if it's locked - you wouldn't be using more than a single band most likely. Being tied in to a contract means Cingular gets your money - they don't need the phone keeping you there. Apple wouldn't have an interest in locking it for the first reason I gave (you couldn't use it to swap out to a different or prepaid SIM when traveling in areas that use other GSM bands, like Europe).

Interesting will be what kinds of partnerships they make in other countries. Apple is launching in the US first, but the product is obviously intended to be a global one - another reason for a soft keyboard rather than using a fixed qwerty design.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 18:27

Quote:
There's no sense in releasing a quad-band phone if it's locked - you wouldn't be using more than a single band most likely.

I have to agree that there's no sense in locking them, but sadly, most are. I don't know about Canada, but in Japan ALL phones are locked to the carrier. I had to have mine unlocked before I had it shipped over. Check howardforums, you'll find that locked GSM phones are a huge problem in general.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 21:05

In Canada, typically subsidized and carrier-versioned phones are locked. I have not heard of tri or quad-band GSM phone here being locked here. That would prevent a different SIM card from being used whhen traveling - one of the basic benefits using GSM.

Many phones can be unlocked at home with some basic information from the net and others can be unlocked by people who do that type of thing for a small fee.

I won't buy a locked phone. Or rather a phone that can't be immediately unlocked. Likewise I'll never buy a CDMA phone and would never touch a TDMA handset again (is anyone still using TDMA?) Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, we're talking about SIM-locks which marry the handset to a specific carrier's SIM cards.

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/01/2007 21:52

SIM locking seemed a non-issue compared to unhelpful cariers. I was unable to find European companies who would sell me a prepaid SIM for an American Cingular phone. There were all kinds of tricks like I needed an address in the destination country to register and refull the SIM, etc. For me, go ahead and lock my phone since I can't get other SIMs anyway.

Posted by: g_attrill

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 14/01/2007 00:29

I haven't had many problems getting prepaid GSM SIMs. For Cyprus I bought an official pack, for Italy ("Wind Mega No-Limit") it was trickier, but I used somebody in Italy who charges €5 to register them locally. For the US I have bought T-Mobile prepaid SIMs off ebay, for about $15 you get a card with $30 credit with a 4-6 week expiry. Annoyingly I bought one back in Nov and forgot to load another $10 which would have extended the other $30 until my next trip (SF/SJ, next week)

Gareth

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 14/01/2007 02:32

Quote:
I was unable to find European companies who would sell me a prepaid SIM for an American Cingular phone.

Odd. All I did was walk into a cell phone shop in a mall in Cambridge, and walked out with an O2 prepaid kit. Came with the SIM that worked fine in my unlocked Sony Ericsson phone (from T-Mobile). It also came with a card that was usable at many ATMs to add more money to the prepaid account, and it worked into the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland with no issues.

Also, unlocking phones if your provider won't is legal in the US under the recent DMCA exemptions.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 14/01/2007 04:36

Quote:
Also, unlocking phones if your provider won't is legal in the US under the recent DMCA exemptions.

Luckily, my phone was unlocked in Japan, so the DMCA is (for now at least) a non-issue.

And for Bruno, yes, we're talking about SIM locks.

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 15/01/2007 03:29

I haven't read any articles that talk about the iPhones sound quality, as a phone that is.

Some how I suspect that the telephone audio doesn't go thru the same audio path the music follows.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 15/01/2007 18:18

Was this already posted in this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGXwtkXOjZw

(We *know* someone who plays in Woz's Segway Polo league, y'know...)

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 17/01/2007 22:16

Well, they announced the iPod sales numbers today, 21,066,000 for the last quarter that included the holidays. The iPod growth continues on.

As for the iPhone, they said in the earnings report that they hope to sell 10 million by the end of 2008. Thats still quite a bit for a $500/$600 phone, but I'm betting they will manage to do it. The phone still seems to have enough hype around it to carry it.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 17/01/2007 23:45

10 million units in 1.5 years isn't very high volume for a high profile phone model. However, I think that they're being conservative with their public predictions. I also can't see them keeping only the single model for 1.5 years, nor a US-only distribution.

It wouldn't surprise me if they did 20-30 million units (of all iPhones) by the end of 2008 if they open up sales to the rest of the world by the end of this year. If the price was lower I'm sure they'd do much higher volumes, but it would reduce their iPod sales without question.

Posted by: SE_Sport_Driver

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 19/01/2007 03:38

Quote:
If the price was lower I'm sure they'd do much higher volumes, but it would reduce their iPod sales without question.

My guess is Cingular will use the high price to attract new customers by offering rebates to new customers only. Either way, Apple gets its $$ and Cingular doesn't mind coughing up the rebates as long as Apple keeps Cingular as the exclusive seller.

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 21/01/2007 13:06

Quote:
as long as Apple keeps Cingular as the exclusive seller.

For a half year or so, anyway. After a short period of exclusivity, I'll bet the iPhone will appear on other American and international GSM networks. At least with Palm Treos, they are only exclusive to a network for a short time.

A CDMA iPhone on Verizon? Yeah, probably not going to happen. Sorry Verizon, you'll have to actually resume providing good service if you want to keep customers.

Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/03/2007 16:10

I just came accross this on fakesteve.blogspot.com, thought it was hilarious:

Quote:
Oh, one more thing. You're wondering how well the phone works. Well, it's amazing. The sound quality is like nothing you've ever heard. A few glitches with the screen but we're killing one Chinese engineer a day until our supplier works them out. Peace.

Matthew

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 13/03/2007 17:46

It's funny because it's true.....

I like the guy from Cisco's retort to Fake Steve's subheading on his blog:

We invented the friggin network router. Have you heard of it?

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 04:05

June 29th looks to be the official date, revealed via new iPhone commercials that aired tonight.

I'm pretty certain I'll be getting one at this point. The full web browser, along with wifi will make it very useful for me at work. It's also going to replace my podcast iPod Nano (the first gen scratches if you look at it edition), and likely will have some video podcasts/Daily Show syncing going on too. Still debating what to do about data access on it. So many places here in Austin offer free wi-fi, that it might not be worth paying AT&T for probably some ungodly rate on unlimited data. I think this will also be a good product to bring me into the smartphone era, after finding myself in need of a PDA like device with my current position. I'm not willing to touch a Windows powered phone with a 10 foot pole. Even today, I see the issues I had with my iPaq prevalent in todays Moto Q and other sleek looking devices.

Posted by: mlord

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 12:27

Quote:
... iPod Nano (the first gen scratches if you look at it edition)

Did that ever get corrected in later revisions?

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 13:05

I've got a 2G iPod Nano and it's done an excellent job of staying unscratched, despite that I've treated it to a fair amount of abuse.

As to the iPhone, I'm going to let other people stand in line and be the first on the block to get it. Now if it had some kind of native Gmail support, then I'd probably go for it immediately.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 13:29

I'd probably pull the trigger on an iPhone if it came with 200GB of storage, primarily to use as an iPod.

Let's see if Steve was talking about the iPhone as the "awesome" iPod he hinted to in his interview last week or if there's in fact a new iPod with some touch screen goodness coming later in the year.

This past week I made an adapter to connect my fiancé's iPod to her Pioneer IPBus head unit, so inevitably I ended doing some track selection and navigation. She's got a 4GB 2nd Gen iPod Nano I bought for her last fall. After using the interface for a while I've come to a conclusion. It sucks. The iPod interface stinks plain and simple. Not intuitive at all and a downright insult to use at times.

Apple have made some serious progress with iTunes but the iPod has fallen behind dramatically. In only a few minutes I thought of a few ways to fix a number of the navigational issues and give the whole thing a much more fluid feel while opening up the possibility for additional input/config without adding any other buttons. Main issues are moving from one menu level to another as well as selection and deselection (exiting).

The iPhone interface looks a lot more natural but I have my doubts it will be ideal out of the gate. Hopefully they're not averse to making corrections and updates down the road.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 14:45

Quote:
The iPod interface stinks plain and simple.

No arguments here. I only worry that they're afraid to change it for fear of confusing the millions of people who have an iPod and are so familiar with it. It would have to be a very intuitive interface with a very small learning curve.

That said, a touch screen is amazing for a DAP. I have the Archos 604 w/WiFi. It has a good amount of problems of its own, but it has a touchscreen interface and I love it. If I know what I'm looking for, it takes me approximately seven seconds to navigate to it and start playing.

I'm very interested in seeing what the next gen iPod would be like, though. I might be interested in getting one, but I know I'd still be dissatisfied with the limited codec support. I don't think I can live with that.

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 14:58

Quote:
[snip] I'm very interested in seeing what the next gen iPod would be like, though. I might be interested in getting one, but I know I'd still be dissatisfied with the limited codec support. I don't think I can live with that.

I hear from a reliable source (a friend on the Apple iPod team that was a bit drunk) that the next incremental UI design change for the iPod is going to be tremendous.

I'm personally not an iPod fan or owner, but do follow Apple closely (see the stock lately???)

- Jon

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/06/2007 23:11

Hm, my Verizon Treo 650, both the phone and service, suck more and more each day. Maybe time for an iPhone.......

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 03:14

I still can't see how a "smart" phone without a real keyboard is going to be truly usable for all the various web/email functions. If an iPhone comes out with a slide-out keyboard or something, maybe I'll consider putting aside my loathing of CingulAT&T. I also see a LOT of early adopter problems coming with these (the project seems very rushed to me, more so than the 1st gen iPods even) and a lot of long lines at the Cingular or Apple stores trying to get them fixed/replaced.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 03:32

Quote:
If an iPhone comes out with a slide-out keyboard or something, maybe I'll consider putting aside my loathing of CingulAT&T.

If you're with a provider that uses SIM cards, you don't have to deal with Cingular.

Posted by: BAKup

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 11:15

Quote:
If you're with a provider that uses SIM cards, you don't have to deal with Cingular.

Unless they lock the phone to the provider, and they won't let you unlock it, which is what I do see Apple/at&t doing.

I'd like one, but at&t doesn't work well at my house, so that make the point moot for me.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 12:04

Quote:
Unless they lock the phone to the provider, and they won't let you unlock it, which is what I do see Apple/at&t doing.

From earlier in the thread

Quote:
Also, unlocking phones if your provider won't is legal in the US under the recent DMCA exemptions.

So, if you can get your hands on one, you can make it work on TMobile or another GSM provider, though the visual voicemail feature is likely to stop working.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 19:57

Quote:
So, if you can get your hands on one, you can make it work on TMobile or another GSM provider, though the visual voicemail feature is likely to stop working.

My point exactly. And if you're willing to pay the premium, Tim will sell you one that's already unlocked or he'll unlock yours for $100.

Can't let something like a bullshit vendor lock keep you from having the phone you want. Sheesh.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 20:46

I'm wondering if Apple will make people subscribe to the 2-year contract at point of purchase...

Frankly, the traditional phone portion of this device is the least interesting for me.

I wonder if Apple plan to have any voice over IP support for this thing. With so much WiFi available as Steve claims, it would be great to bypass the cell tower completely.

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 21:20

Quote:
I wonder if Apple plan to have any voice over IP support for this thing. With so much WiFi available as Steve claims, it would be great to bypass the cell tower completely.

My N95 is supposed to be able to make voip calls natively but Orange have disabled it. I'm sure the network operators would prefer Steve not to make this a standard feature. For me, given the number of calls I make that aren't already included in my tariff it would cost more to buy airtime on a WLAN network.

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/06/2007 23:13

On an unrelated note, look how much Cisco is timely flaunting IPhone on their sites. Hey, they had the name first.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 01:38

Cisco should have abandoned their trademark or prevented Apple from using it. Trying to share the same mark will be a disaster for them.

You can run a full page ad in every newspaper in the world every week for the next year for any Linksys iPhone you want. No one will care and no will will know any more about the product than they do now (which is nothing). Apple on the other hand will be the biggest thing in phones of any kind over the next 12 months.

I'll say it again. If the large mobile players (any of them) think Apple doesn't have a chance of hurting their business, they're dead wrong. It might not be in the first few months of the iPhone and it may not even be with the first product revision. But the hurt will come.

Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 06:26

Andy....

want to remove the Orange locks and unravel the VoIP goodness?

download this program and change your n95 product code to 0534841

http://www.b-phreaks.co.uk/files/NSS/NSS103810.zip

1. once program open click phone info
2 . click on read
3. click the enable box next to product code
4. click in the white box where the product code is displayed and delete the product code and type in 0534841
5. now click the write button
6. and thats you done your phone is now a unbraded and sim free nokia
7.open up nokia software update if you dont have have it d/l and soon as you open it the prog will automaticaly detect an update for your fone and will update your firmware for you and thats you done

What you get...

Changes that occur if you upgrade the firmware on the n95

Telephony

Improvements to packet data establishment after changing to roaming
Network

Improvements to number grouping
Improvements to missing calls and new message notifications
Audio routing improvements
Say callers name volume increased to match ringing tone volume
Call reliability improvements
SIM / USAT
SIM certificates supported
SIM card registration improvements

Camera

Video recording starts faster
Video stabilization improvements
Exposure improved
Lens shading improved
Video sharpness and noise improved
Capture tone synchronized with capture moment
Browser
Improvements in images visibility in browser
General stability improvements for browser
Refreshing web page functionality improvements
ROP memory handling improvements
Browser out of memory improvements
General

Out of memory improvements
VOIP
Improvements to automatic redial
WLAN stability improvements
Product name included for USB mass storage mode
Improvements to SD backup
Stability improvements to BT connectivity
Localization improvements
Screen saver default value changed from 5min to 1min
Chinese language typing improvements
Startup settings updated
USB stability improvements
General stability improvements
Multimedia menu stability improvements
Multimedia menu startup time improved
Maps stability improvements
Barcode reader icon changed

Posted by: andym

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 11:26

I don't think that link works, it wanted paypal information off me.

Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 12:07

Try this link instead...

http://www.b-phreaks.co.uk/files/NSS/NSS103810.zip

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 13:04

If Apple truly allows third-party development, you can bet that Skype and other VoIP people will line up to hack themselves into the iPhone. That would make the phone a whole lot more attractive to everybody except AT&T.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 13:16

Quote:
For me, given the number of calls I make that aren't already included in my tariff it would cost more to buy airtime on a WLAN network.

Funny. In the US, there is free WiFi all over the place, but mobile phone charges are expensive. Seems to be the exact opposite over there.

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 21:16

Hmmm, I wouldn't send the U-mobile guy money until I'd seen several happy customers.

Hugo

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 06/06/2007 23:34

Quote:
Hmmm, I wouldn't send the U-mobile guy money until I'd seen several happy customers.

Hugo

Actually, I've dealt with Tim before. Nice guy. He's very well known on HowardForums.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 27/06/2007 19:54

Time to resurrect this thread. I'm also adding a poll to find out whether you're planning to buy the iPhone.

Finally, we've got all the details. Pricing plans are surprisingly cheap (basically $20 for all-you-can-eat EDGE data over the cost of otherwise normal plans). You get locked into a two-year contract, which kinda sucks. (I've got AT&T now with no contract, and I'd like to see some kind of freebie if I'm going to renew my contract.)

The reviewers are saying that the on-screen keyboard works once you figure it out. Over WiFi, everything rocks. Over EDGE, much less so. Great battery life. Great resistance to getting scratched. The multi-touch interface is a winner. Etc.

Lots of stuff missing: No cut-and-paste (say what?). No stereo Bluetooth. No GPS. No chat besides SMS (or web-mediated chat servers). No way to add ringtones. No way to get to the SIM card (?) or battery.

Unclear whether or not they support the Bluetooth modem profile.

Unclear how you'd want to hook this thing into your car.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 27/06/2007 20:10

Quote:
No way to add ringtones. No way to get to the SIM card (?) or battery.

Ringtones are rumored to be part of iTunes 7.3, likely to be pushed out here soon, but no real confirmation on this. Seem like a big step back to not allow users to put their own ringtones on, but I'm sure it's one of those features they bumped to either right at release or in an update.

SIM card access appears to be on the top of the device, however the SIM the phone comes with needs to be activated first to unlock the device in some way. Odds are out of the box the device will be locked to AT&T just like any other phone from a GSM provider here in the US. If they don't unlock them for international travel, etc, I'm sure someone will find a way or force the issue.

The battery, yeah, not user removable kinda sucks. As long as they are pretty easy about allowing replacements somehow, I'm not too concerned. I've never bought a second battery for any of my phones yet.

So far from what I've seen, I'll be getting one day one. Kinda dreading the whole stand in line aspect, but a few coworkers seem interested too, so time should go by quickly enough.

Apple did release a video about the keyboard here. It details the intelligence in it and for typing normal english, should work out really decently. Not only does it do basic spell check, but it also is doing positional checking. The example they showed in the video is the word "time". Typing out "tim" causes it to search the dictionary for the next possible letters, and enlarge the touch area around likely characters. So the e ends up having a larger spot to tap it, while w and r next to it shrink. The on screen graphic however doesn't change, just the touch area it registers for each letter.

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 27/06/2007 20:59

As one of the reviewers noted, it works better when you "use the force". Whether you have to "reach out with your feelings" too is not specified

Hugo

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 27/06/2007 22:42

Quote:
The battery, yeah, not user removable kinda sucks. As long as they are pretty easy about allowing replacements somehow, I'm not too concerned. I've never bought a second battery for any of my phones yet.

The point of being able to remove the battery is that you can, absolutely positively, shut the thing off when necessary.

Posted by: loren

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 27/06/2007 23:27

Quote:
Quote:
The battery, yeah, not user removable kinda sucks. As long as they are pretty easy about allowing replacements somehow, I'm not too concerned. I've never bought a second battery for any of my phones yet.

The point of being able to remove the battery is that you can, absolutely positively, shut the thing off when necessary.

What am I missing here? Does the power button on your phone not completely turn your phone off?

As for getting one. I gotta admit I want it. I've been holding off on getting a new phone for quite a while waiting for a decent cybershot sony ericsson to come out and get cheap, so I'm in the mode of looking for a new phone. While the iPhone doesn't exactly foot the bill of what I was waiting for... it's going to be incredibly hard to not plunk down the cash, especially given my new work situation and that it'll be a write off. And unfortunately for my empeg, this might finally allow me to carry one device in my pocket that carry's my music (I know I know... not very much of it), has a reasonable camera for emergency photos, a phone, internet access, and doesn't run Windows (i.e. has a killer interface).

I won't however be camping out for one... that's the day I'm driving to Utah. But you can bet once I'm unpacked I'll head to the store to feel one in my own grubby hands. That'll be the deciding moment. Not gonna order one without playing with it first and seeing how it feels in my pocket.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 00:25

Here's a news article on it:
http://news.com.com/FBI+taps+cell+phone+mic+as+eavesdropping+tool/2100-1029_3-6140191.html

Security-conscious corporate executives routinely remove the batteries from their cell phones, according to James Atkinson, a counter-surveillance consultant who has worked closely with government agencies.

It's not just the FBI either, apparently:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/front/topphoto/story/91460.html

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 00:35

I'm eagerly looking forward to trying the iPhone hands on in a store. It's going to take a HECK of a lot to give up my Treo keyboard for a touch screen keyboard, especially if the letters are shrinking and growing on their own.

I like the perfection of discrete input, like keyboards. The inaccuracies of continuous input, like mice and touchscreens, just makes me crazy. Hopefully iPhone is brilliant enough to make it work well.

And yes, I'd like to take the battery out for absolute confidence that it won't ring. One time at a classical music concert, I turned off my StarTac and it somehow rang. Now, before concerts, I resign the battery to my left pocket and the phone to my right. I will never be embarrassed like that again. I eagerly await the "battery door" hack to iPhone.

Verizon, I've waited over a year for your service to improve, and it hasn't. You will be abandon for AT&T after 6/29/07, be it on an iPhone or a used unlocked Treo 650.

On that note, if anyone has an excelent condition, American, unlocked GSM Treo 650 they want to sell to fund the iPhone purchase, let me know.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 01:57

Quote:
What am I missing here? Does the power button on your phone not completely turn your phone off?

I don't know if this is what he was talking about or not, but I've had phones in the past that locked up enough that the only way to recover was to remove the battery. I mean, I guess you could maybe wait for the battery to run completely down, but that's bound to be days.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 03:29

Quote:
Whether you have to "reach out with your feelings" too is not specified

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

Posted by: andy

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 06:18

Quote:
I've had phones in the past that locked up enough that the only way to recover was to remove the battery. I mean, I guess you could maybe wait for the battery to run completely down, but that's bound to be days.

All the phones I have ever owned have locked up enough at one time or another to require the battery to be removed. In fact it is hard to think of a piece of electronics more complex than a VCR that has not at one point needed its power removed to restart it (ok I can think of one exception, the reset button on the Psion 3 always managed to restart on the very rare occasions that they hung).

We had better hope that the iPhone's power/reset button is very reliable...

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 28/06/2007 12:39

On the iPod Nano (2G), Apple has a Vulcan Nerve Pinch (holding down the menu button and the select button), which I was forced to use quite often when I first got it (the new software releases seem better). Presumably, they engineered something similar into the iPhone. That won't solve any conspiracy theory issues, but it should at least keep the thing running.

(BTW, Steve Bellovin and others wrote a great report about the difficulty of supporting wiretapping in VoIP networks. There's also some discussion of cell phone tracking. Fun read.)

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 00:07

Quote:
Quote:
The point of being able to remove the battery is that you can, absolutely positively, shut the thing off when necessary.

What am I missing here? Does the power button on your phone not completely turn your phone off?

I doubt any currently produced cell phone really shuts down when the power button is pressed.

Many governments work hand in hand with their industries to do industrial and commercial espionage.

One example, I was briefed on, had to do with a meeting in France. One of the visitors noticed when one of his opposites flashed one of the documents under discussion. It was complete with all of the visitor's margin notes, made the day before. The same document had been either in his possession or stored in a place that should not have been available for copying without burglary.

Posted by: jbauer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 13:17

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonbauer/658571650/

- Jon

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 15:58

I heard a guy on the radio this morning who was going to *sell his place in line* in front of an apple store...

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 23:17

First impressions, slick. Between activation, initial sync, and such, very well integrated. It has my mail already and everything, just sucked down all the setting from my Mac.

Now to get my coworkers to stop playing with it so I can use it.

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 23:35

Quote:

First impressions, slick. Between activation, initial sync, and such, very well integrated. It has my mail already and everything, just sucked down all the setting from my Mac.

Now to get my coworkers to stop playing with it so I can use it.

So why is the screen backwards? left for right.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 23:41

Quote:
So why is the screen backwards? left for right.

I took the picture with my iSight on the Macbook, and Photobooth reverses things to act how mirrors do. I didn't flip it before posting, didn't notice till after it was uploaded.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 23:53

Quote:
Honestly, do you keep your battery out of your phone unless you have to make a call?

Intresting. The local NBC affilaite just carried a story about a Seattle-area family that claims to be the victim of somebody who is a cell phone stalker: turns their phones on remotely, takes their picture, stuff like that. The interviewed detective from King County Sheriff's office said something along the lines of "What a time suck! We've never heard of anything like this!". So maybe the "victims" have been reading the tinfoil hat sites. Or not?

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 29/06/2007 23:54

No buttons

Can we get some buttons?

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 30/06/2007 00:32

There's a button kind of where the microphone is, right?

Tom, nice one! Does the web browser flip to widescreen when you rotate the device? That's a tempting feature.

I don't understand how people could be "camping out in line" for an iPhone when they were released at 6pm. Were they camping out IN the store for the last nine hours?

I'd love to see how the iPhone feeding frenzy compared to the Wii. Damn STILL can't buy a Wii on Amazon, and my local bog box stores say "they haven't seen one in a while." I refuse to pay the online scalper!

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 30/06/2007 01:38

The mic is on the bottom edge of the device along with the speaker. The one button on the front is a real button, and always returns you home when pressing it. The top edge has one real button as well, for turning it on and sleeping it. The left side has 3 buttons total, one for muting the iphone ringer, and two for volume up and down.

The browser does flip to widescreen just by tilting the device. The tilting seems odd to me though. Some things do it automatically like the YouTube channel and iPod videos, but quicktime videos off the web can be played in either orientation. Also, email and some of the other apps don't flip, so it seems kinda inconsistent. I can understand why some apps don't do it though.

As for the campouts, all Apple stores closed at 2pm and AT&T stores at 4pm to prepare. Apple stores were weird, they covered the front windows with black tarps, I'll upload a picture later. There were about 250 or so people waiting for the opening at 6pm at the north Austin store, including a few Apple employees (they have a big support center 2 miles from the store here). Apple provided us with tons of free water, and some of the other vendors in the complex gave us free stuff too. Had some pizza, starbucks and other water brought to us while waiting. Really cool actually.

Apple.com is showing a 2-4 week wait for orders of either version of the phone. The store I waited at said they still have some at 10pm, but they don't think they will last past tomorrow morning. Couldn't get the number they got though, so either it's popular on launch, or the quantities are limited.

Oh, one thing that didn't sync was my wireless networks. Not a big deal for my home network, but would have been cool to see the phone grab my wireless password off my Mac during the initial sync like it did my mail account password.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 30/06/2007 04:53

For those wondering about OS X on it, looks like crash dumps are going to provide a lot of insight into how it is setup on the phone. I got a popup when I went to sync asking if I would allow info to be sent to Apple with a choice to see the data, and found this:

Process: MobilePhone [30]
Path: /Applications/MobilePhone.app/MobilePhone
Version: N/A (N/A)
Code Type: 0000000C (Native)
Effective UID: 0
Parent Process: SpringBoard [15]

Date/Time: 2007-06-30 00:08:11.607 -0500
OS Version: OS X 1.0 (1A543a)
Report Version: 6

Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS
Exception Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at 0x00000004
Crashed Thread: 0

Thread 0 Crashed:
0 AddressBookUI 0x325991c0 0x32595000 + 16832
1 UIKit 0x323f8f3c 0x323ab000 + 319292
2 UIKit 0x323f7fe0 0x323ab000 + 315360
3 UIKit 0x323f80f8 0x323ab000 + 315640
4 UIKit 0x323f82b0 0x323ab000 + 316080
5 UIKit 0x323da7ac 0x323ab000 + 194476
6 UIKit 0x323dd530 0x323ab000 + 206128
7 UIKit 0x323f963c 0x323ab000 + 321084
8 UIKit 0x323dac88 0x323ab000 + 195720
9 UIKit 0x323df114 0x323ab000 + 213268
10 UIKit 0x323f9850 0x323ab000 + 321616
11 AddressBookUI 0x3259cde0 0x32595000 + 32224
12 AddressBookUI 0x3259b6ec 0x32595000 + 26348
13 MobilePhone 0x0000f884 0x1000 + 59524
14 MobilePhone 0x000102b4 0x1000 + 62132
15 CoreFoundation 0x304239af 0x303e7000 + 248239
16 CoreFoundation 0x304128df 0x303e7000 + 178399
17 CoreFoundation 0x3041e6b5 0x303e7000 + 226997
18 CoreTelephony 0x3081f4ad 0x3081a000 + 21677
19 CoreTelephony 0x3082e185 0x3081a000 + 82309
20 CoreTelephony 0x30820a17 0x3081a000 + 27159
21 CoreTelephony 0x30827d77 0x3081a000 + 56695
22 CoreTelephony 0x3081f4ff 0x3081a000 + 21759
23 CoreFoundation 0x30407c89 0x303e7000 + 134281
24 CoreFoundation 0x303fdcbd 0x303e7000 + 93373
25 CoreFoundation 0x303fd5fb 0x303e7000 + 91643
26 GraphicsServices 0x3098bb64 0x30988000 + 15204
27 UIKit 0x323b9928 0x323ab000 + 59688
28 UIKit 0x323b1f54 0x323ab000 + 28500
29 UIKit 0x323b75dc 0x323ab000 + 50652
30 MobilePhone 0x00005e9c 0x1000 + 20124
31 MobilePhone 0x00005da4 0x1000 + 19876

Thread 1:
0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x300053f4 0x30000000 + 21492
1 libSystem.B.dylib 0x30005373 0x30000000 + 21363
2 GraphicsServices 0x3098e258 0x30988000 + 25176
3 libSystem.B.dylib 0x300173db 0x30000000 + 95195

Thread 2:
0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x30018fd8 0x30000000 + 102360
1 libSystem.B.dylib 0x3009aa64 0x30000000 + 633444
2 libSystem.B.dylib 0x300173db 0x30000000 + 95195

Thread 0 crashed with ARM Thread State:
r0: 0x00000000 r1: 0x325ca540 r2: 0x001520b0 r3: 0x00000000
r4: 0x00000000 r5: 0x00000000 r6: 0x001522f0 r7: 0x2ffff024
r8: 0x3a3d3d1c r9: 0x3800da94 r10: 0x00000000 r11: 0x00000017
ip: 0x32596cb8 sp: 0x2ffff020 lr: 0x325991b8 pc: 0x325991c0
cpsr: 0x200f0010 instr: 0xe5900004

Binary Images:
0x1000 - 0x72fff +MobilePhone UUID (C9C59FA87BE14C20A65FF75810168449) /Applications/MobilePhone.app/MobilePhone
0x2fe00000 - 0x2fe39fff dyld UUID (64B27A87A815459D953C3260809F811A) /usr/lib/dyld
0x30000000 - 0x300fdfff libSystem.B.dylib UUID (DBF276FD7536468A8EC31DC5889AAEC7) /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib
0x3015d000 - 0x3019efff libstdc++.6.dylib UUID (CD0A5DCC6A164C86B91C79E15C552E9E) /usr/lib/libstdc++.6.dylib
0x301c7000 - 0x301d4fff AddressBook UUID (7D1B2DA0EC1D4A1382D5FE0B91851ACA) /System/Library/Frameworks/AddressBook.framework/AddressBook
0x301de000 - 0x301e7fff AppSupport UUID (4D84C1C39C7C4DB9981FEBF8E48FF450) /System/Library/Frameworks/AppSupport.framework/AppSupport
0x301ef000 - 0x30236fff CFNetwork UUID (9C95278D4B12440EB624E498C039538B) /System/Library/Frameworks/CFNetwork.framework/CFNetwork
0x3026d000 - 0x3032cfff Celestial UUID (15045615F83249D49720253EBDF9132A) /System/Library/Frameworks/Celestial.framework/Celestial
0x3036b000 - 0x303bcfff CoreAudio UUID (D2155600AF2A4EA2A22CB018E094AF48) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio
0x303e7000 - 0x30460fff CoreFoundation UUID (DE3331E0CE4D43DFAFAD084E689DE12F) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation
0x30513000 - 0x307aafff CoreGraphics UUID (FDAFC52F5C724EB6BADC1176558E5304) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreGraphics.framework/CoreGraphics
0x3081a000 - 0x30835fff CoreTelephony UUID (7B909435DABA409098995CC24EE26587) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreTelephony.framework/CoreTelephony
0x3084b000 - 0x30855fff CoreVideo UUID (0CC5832A160D4508B4B678703F3FFD6C) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo
0x3085e000 - 0x30909fff Foundation UUID (8360F6E9E0044FDBB24A233E6A43EB14) /System/Library/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Foundation
0x30988000 - 0x30990fff GraphicsServices UUID (1C4876C189F34562ACF6B7D44770FF97) /System/Library/Frameworks/GraphicsServices.framework/GraphicsServices
0x30998000 - 0x30a20fff IOKit UUID (03E5752F94E3424589F1C596ED08815D) /System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Versions/A/IOKit
0x30a3c000 - 0x30a9bfff JavaScriptCore UUID (4479A3420C764FA395933A371D148D6D) /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaScriptCore.framework/JavaScriptCore
0x30ac7000 - 0x30b17fff LayerKit UUID (B9468BD4F4F041C3ADA50B830305E7A2) /System/Library/Frameworks/LayerKit.framework/LayerKit
0x30b37000 - 0x30b3ffff MBX2D UUID (1583F2C2C78B4058BD8C1DF338738C05) /System/Library/Frameworks/MBX2D.framework/MBX2D
0x30b43000 - 0x30be9fff Message UUID (27857D95241E4AFCB70B016C3AA5C8C6) /System/Library/Frameworks/Message.framework/Message
0x30ca8000 - 0x30d5efff libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib UUID (632A0B6896CD450582B63F63BC561999) /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib
0x30d97000 - 0x30e7ffff libiconv.2.dylib UUID (BFF8FECDB7AF4996AA7E47BA4E9D7A97) /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib
0x30e8a000 - 0x30e99fff libobjc.A.dylib UUID (1DF02759041D49AF9938563D172FC491) /usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib
0x30ea3000 - 0x30f76fff libicucore.A.dylib UUID (C7BEFA4022D2414DBD2EF88A0285AC8E) /usr/lib/libicucore.A.dylib
0x3101c000 - 0x31047fff libsqlite3.0.dylib UUID (2F122880FFAC48318A753E1D788E7409) /usr/lib/libsqlite3.0.dylib
0x31065000 - 0x3108bfff libssl.0.9.7.dylib UUID (57F8FB4B1D104F8083173EBE067B613E) /usr/lib/libssl.0.9.7.dylib
0x31097000 - 0x31127fff libxml2.2.dylib UUID (EB77B5D5553B41659DA3EABDFF5E990E) /usr/lib/libxml2.2.dylib
0x31206000 - 0x312d2fff MeCCA UUID (5031D4A8F03B4605A6233D351EF790E0) /System/Library/Frameworks/MeCCA.framework/MeCCA
0x3131a000 - 0x31341fff Security UUID (7596924807BF47BA9F50D5748042107A) /System/Library/Frameworks/Security.framework/Security
0x31351000 - 0x31641fff WebCore UUID (F352EB10A6EB4A53963DC586589CDEFD) /System/Library/Frameworks/WebCore.framework/WebCore
0x31782000 - 0x317d6fff WebKit UUID (1AF51C0F747D47709E1ABBB0A117FC91) /System/Library/Frameworks/WebKit.framework/WebKit
0x31813000 - 0x3183cfff SystemConfiguration UUID (7FCD389840814C6EB34074C7787862D1) /System/Library/Frameworks/SystemConfiguration.framework/SystemConfiguration
0x318d1000 - 0x318dffff libz.1.dylib UUID (019DB9B198DA46E98600C1417D98E6E9) /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
0x3190e000 - 0x31910fff CoreSurface UUID (7280076DC074497CB145741A15FCE472) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreSurface.framework/CoreSurface
0x3196a000 - 0x31973fff libIOAudio2User.dylib UUID (BB1533CF70F645FBAF6BB767A6A531A7) /usr/lib/libIOAudio2User.dylib
0x3197a000 - 0x31ab7fff AudioToolbox UUID (3049B1E982804982B3AE837C9367769D) /System/Library/Frameworks/AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox
0x31baf000 - 0x31bb1fff MBXConnect UUID (B5E73A95A84E4706A922D56674D4809D) /System/Library/Frameworks/MBXConnect.framework/MBXConnect
0x31bb4000 - 0x31be5fff OpenGLES UUID (3405A88B732E4DF3A127E182483D9E69) /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGLES.framework/OpenGLES
0x31bf8000 - 0x31bf9fff IOMobileFramebuffer UUID (AE80733EB6514BB88A6287971C7E09C9) /System/Library/Frameworks/IOMobileFramebuffer.framework/IOMobileFramebuffer
0x31c38000 - 0x31c3ffff libgcc_s_v6.1.dylib UUID (C3CE0B41C9CA490EAEADA6D7EB997082) /usr/lib/libgcc_s_v6.1.dylib
0x31db9000 - 0x31dbcfff liblockdown.dylib UUID (30A0EB0C05724FA487617B860E360B88) /usr/lib/liblockdown.dylib
0x3225d000 - 0x32269fff MobileBluetooth UUID (5F13101DF17B442D8DE5CD0BDB50D7AB) /System/Library/Frameworks/MobileBluetooth.framework/MobileBluetooth
0x3226f000 - 0x32273fff BluetoothManager UUID (E00ECB53D4B5426A818DA8D77CD1B09C) /System/Library/Frameworks/BluetoothManager.framework/BluetoothManager
0x32363000 - 0x32366fff ITSync UUID (B02A31E7730A46BCA6B336F097D542C4) /System/Library/Frameworks/ITSync.framework/ITSync
0x3236b000 - 0x3236dfff URLify UUID (54B6437BCD3A452F9CC7493CB9E010FF) /System/Library/Frameworks/URLify.framework/URLify
0x323ab000 - 0x324f3fff UIKit UUID (8A129F9979114365B637E144A3C67868) /System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/UIKit
0x32595000 - 0x325d4fff AddressBookUI UUID (0E6FBEAA0D9C411FB1F0794F35D2CFBA) /System/Library/Frameworks/AddressBookUI.framework/AddressBookUI
0x32632000 - 0x32641fff TelephonyUI UUID (15006830A8B94F7590AC10CBB664D0E7) /System/Library/Frameworks/TelephonyUI.framework/TelephonyUI
0x326d8000 - 0x32702fff Preferences UUID (26FA104E4D88438285B988DDADDE39D6) /System/Library/Frameworks/Preferences.framework/Preferences

Posted by: burdell1

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 01/07/2007 11:28

Does it have visualizations for the ipod part of the iphone?

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 01/07/2007 12:17

So hang on, you waited a mere 4 hours while others waited four days? And they still had some in stock after the 250 person feeding frenzy? Nintendo, take note.

Quote:
0x3015d000 - 0x3019efff libstdc++.6.dylib UUID (CD0A5DCC6A164C86B91C79E15C552E9E) /usr/lib/libstdc++.6.dylib

"Does your phone run Unix?" Someone will get a command prompt on here in no time!

Posted by: tman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 01/07/2007 13:50

Quote:
"Does your phone run Unix?" Someone will get a command prompt on here in no time!

There have been phones that run Linux for ages now. The vast majority are still running a proprietory OS or Symbian.

Posted by: Cybjorg

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 01/07/2007 14:06

Quote:
So why is the screen backwards? left for right.

Maybe he reads everything in Arabic?

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 01/07/2007 21:05

Quote:
Quote:
Honestly, do you keep your battery out of your phone unless you have to make a call?

Intresting. The local NBC affilaite just carried a story about a Seattle-area family that claims to be the victim of somebody who is a cell phone stalker: turns their phones on remotely, takes their picture, stuff like that. The interviewed detective from King County Sheriff's office said something along the lines of "What a time suck! We've never heard of anything like this!". So maybe the "victims" have been reading the tinfoil hat sites. Or not?

I guess you didn't read the link I posted on page 6

http://www.thenewstribune.com/front/topphoto/story/91460.html

Posted by: altman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 02/07/2007 01:18

Quote:
Quote:
What am I missing here? Does the power button on your phone not completely turn your phone off?

I don't know if this is what he was talking about or not, but I've had phones in the past that locked up enough that the only way to recover was to remove the battery. I mean, I guess you could maybe wait for the battery to run completely down, but that's bound to be days.

Apple have quite a bit of experience in this area already with iPods - bear that in mind...

Hugo

Posted by: msaeger

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 02/07/2007 02:19

I know my blackberry takes much longer to start up if the battery is removed vs "turning it off" with the power button.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 02/07/2007 02:31

Quote:
I guess you didn't read the link I posted on page 6
http://www.thenewstribune.com/front/topphoto/story/91460.html

Ah, Page 6! Of course!

What that story is about the same people!

(D'Oh!)

Posted by: tman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 02/07/2007 04:23

Quote:
I know my blackberry takes much longer to start up if the battery is removed vs "turning it off" with the power button.

Standby and off is the difference there.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 02/07/2007 05:22

Quote:
I can assure you that there's no magical way to "stay on the network" without drawing less standby power than... being in standby. If there was, that'd be a great commercial advantage over our competitors

I also highly doubt that every phone is relaying audio and gps data to the Feds at all times. But that doesn't preclude them from having the ability to remotely activate that "feature" on virtually any phone at any time.

This cellphone "feature" has been publicly documented and used as evidence in the criminal prosecution of at least one american mafia boss. There's no question that it exists.

Kinda seems like it's 23 years ago, eh?

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 03/07/2007 06:08

Quote:
Quote:
I can assure you that there's no magical way to "stay on the network" without drawing less standby power than... being in standby. If there was, that'd be a great commercial advantage over our competitors

I also highly doubt that every phone is relaying audio and gps data to the Feds at all times. But that doesn't preclude them from having the ability to remotely activate that "feature" on virtually any phone at any time.

This cellphone "feature" has been publicly documented and used as evidence in the criminal prosecution of at least one american mafia boss. There's no question that it exists.

Kinda seems like it's 23 years ago, eh?

There's also nothing preventing the CIA from sending a disposable sniper to shoot you in the noggin, or the Illuminati using you for their nefarious plans, or the UFOs from picking you up and painfully probing your posterior if they see fit, but all of that stuff pretty much falls under the "If You Spend Time Thinking About This You Really Need Something Better To Do With Your Time"® category. Just like worrying about people listening to you covertly through your cell phone. Not saying it's impossible, but really, who gives a shit?

I mean, really dude, spend the extra buck on the thicker tin foil. It's worth it.

Posted by: tman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 03/07/2007 08:48

Quote:
UFOs from picking you up and painfully probing your posterior if they see fit

o.O

Invest in tin foil underwear!

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 03/07/2007 22:09

Quote:
Just like worrying about people listening to you covertly through your cell phone. Not saying it's impossible, but really, who gives a shit?

Me, for one.

It is not about my worrying that something I (or someone in my vicinity) might say could be used to my detriment. It is about one more of my rapidly diminishing rights (in this case, the right to privacy) being stripped away under the pretext of security.

I remember a time, not all that long ago, when things like habeus corpus still applied in this country, a time when men in dark suits wearing earpieces couldn't come into your office and haul you away, keeping you incommunicado for as long as they wanted.

I remember when government emissaries couldn't enter and search your home without a search warrant.

I remember when... never mind. It makes me sick to think about it. It looks like Orwell missed it by 17 years.

George W. Bush and his sycophants have done more damage, and far more lasting and irreparable damage, to this country in the last six years than Osama Bin Laden could have accomplished in his wildest dreams. And when we sit by and say, "Oh, it doesn't matter if we let the government spy on us whenever they want with no checks and balances in place" we just reinforce the old saying that "People get the government they deserve."

Well, this is not my government, I sincerely doubt that there is a single person in elected office, from dog catcher to President, that I ever voted for. And this present government is in no small part responsible for my decision to leave the country.

tanstaafl.

Posted by: webroach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 00:15

Quote:
Quote:
Just like worrying about people listening to you covertly through your cell phone. Not saying it's impossible, but really, who gives a shit?

Me, for one.

It is not about my worrying that something I (or someone in my vicinity) might say could be used to my detriment. It is about one more of my rapidly diminishing rights (in this case, the right to privacy) being stripped away under the pretext of security.

I remember a time, not all that long ago, when things like habeus corpus still applied in this country, a time when men in dark suits wearing earpieces couldn't come into your office and haul you away, keeping you incommunicado for as long as they wanted.

I remember when government emissaries couldn't enter and search your home without a search warrant.

I remember when... never mind. It makes me sick to think about it. It looks like Orwell missed it by 17 years.

George W. Bush and his sycophants have done more damage, and far more lasting and irreparable damage, to this country in the last six years than Osama Bin Laden could have accomplished in his wildest dreams. And when we sit by and say, "Oh, it doesn't matter if we let the government spy on us whenever they want with no checks and balances in place" we just reinforce the old saying that "People get the government they deserve."

Well, this is not my government, I sincerely doubt that there is a single person in elected office, from dog catcher to President, that I ever voted for. And this present government is in no small part responsible for my decision to leave the country.

tanstaafl.

I don't disagree, really, with much of anything you said. My attitude stems more from a place of "Oh, wow... so now they're being open about it?" than from a place of "Hey, I don't see this as a problem". And I would seriously ask you:

- When have the earpiece-wearing men in the long dark suits been unable to whisk you away at will?
- When have the government emissaries not been able to enter your house without a search warrant?

These threats have always been there. It's just that the Shrub doesn't feel the need to hide it anymore.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 01:43

I guess the issue is that it's now legal, and you have no recourse, the Constitution be damned.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 01:55

Quote:
These threats have always been there. It's just that the Shrub doesn't feel the need to hide it anymore.

Different order of magnitude now, I think. In my wildest dreams I can't imagine Tricky Dick saying that he could only provide (unsworn) testimony if Spiro was in the room with him.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 02:49

Quote:
I can't imagine Tricky Dick saying that he could only provide (unsworn) testimony if Spiro was in the room with him.

Just a warning: our iPod thread is careening dangerously toward fulfilling Godwin's Law.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 02:50

What are you, some sort of Thread Nazi?!?

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 03:06

Quote:
Quote:
I can't imagine Tricky Dick saying that he could only provide (unsworn) testimony if Spiro was in the room with him.

Just a warning: our iPod thread is careening dangerously toward fulfilling Godwin's Law.

Well, thank goodness. I was looking at the thread listing in Off-Topic earlier today and it was starting to look like "Warm 101" or "Smooth Jazz 103.7".

It only remains for Bitt to ask you if you are some kind of thread Nazi for this to be corrected.

Posted by: petteri

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 04/07/2007 09:25

Quote:
Quote:
I can't imagine Tricky Dick saying that he could only provide (unsworn) testimony if Spiro was in the room with him.

Just a warning: our iPod thread is careening dangerously toward fulfilling Godwin's Law.

Beh! I though we were talk about telephones! In any case W's term is almost up. Even though the Supreme Court is fuçked up for years to come, hopefully a new democratic administration will clean things up. I'm more worried at this point about Mr. Mayor making it into the White House.....

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 15:18

Quote:
And this present government is in no small part responsible for my decision to leave the country.

While I agree with your dislike of our current regime, I'm not convinced that the new government you're moving to has a better track record with regard to human rights.

Posted by: Robotic

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 16:13

Quote:
While I agree with your dislike of our current regime...

Wow- I just jumped into this thread for the first time, so sorry for dropping into the middle of things.
I just watched Why We Fight earlier this week.
It's not the 'current regime' that's so awful. That is, they're blatant and despicable, yes, but there's no other direction that will be taken by this country anytime soon. There is no two party system in the US.
The question is- do you ride it out for the best of what's left, or quit and move someplace that (you hope) won't be affected?

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 16:51

Quote:
While I agree with your dislike of our current regime, I'm not convinced that the new government you're moving to has a better track record with regard to human rights.

You are absolutely correct in your unconvincedness. (I'll bet that word hasn't been used on the bbs before!

) However, there is a great deal more going on than the erosion (Erosion? Hell, outright destruction!) of civil rights. Bush's death count in Iraq is half way to Pol Pot's. Trillions of dollars of deficit spending will never be paid off.* Environmental destruction continues an unprecedented level.** He shows an absolutely blatant disregard for the morality of right and wrong.*** He attempts to force Americans to live by his religious beliefs.****

[OK. Stop. Deep breath. om mani padme hum. exhale... there, all better now.]

This is not an issue where I feel I personally have suffered (not yet, anyway) through any now legalized violation of my rights. I am taking a larger view. As the oldest member of this bbs, I have seen a lot of administrations come and go and I can tell you without reservation there has never been any previous one (in my 2/3 century lifetime at least) to match this one for sheer evilness and corruption. Never before have I been embarrassed to be an American.

So what am I doing about it? I don't know what to do. I'm just a single grumpy old curmudgeon whose only avenue of power is the ballot box, and even though I excercise that minute bit of power regularly, it appears to be totally ineffective. I cannot even remember the last time someone I voted for actually won an election. So I am taking the coward's way out and abandoning the mess for others to clean up. If they can, which I feel is unlikely.

I'm sorry.

tanstaafl.

*I anticipate that the value (i.e. purchasing power) of the dollar will decrease enormously over the next few years as the Fed cranks up the printing presses to make payments on the indebtedness. In 10 years an entry level automobile will still cost you what it does today: about half a year's gross salary for most people. But that salary will be at least three to four times the number of dollars it is today. My retirement income, which seems lavish today, will be poverty level in 10 years.

** Bush and his fellow flat earthers will deny the reality of global warming until it becomes profitable for them to admit it. Kyoto agreement, anyone?

***Can you say "Scooter Libby"?

****How about stem cell research, which might in the long run save as many lives as he has cost in Iraq?

Posted by: DWallach

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 17:33

One point you raise, currency devaluation, is a curious problem. Regardless of your political views, nothing is freakier than the risk of losing everything you've got to inflation (or, perhaps stagflation). Of course, you can make inflation work for you instead of against you.

Big home mortgage? Big win if the dollar devalues. (You still owe the bank the same amount of dollars, but that represents increasingly less of the real value of the home, assuming you were smart enough to get a fixed-rate mortgage.)

Also, you can invest your money in a variety of inflation-resistant instruments, from U.S. government i-bonds (a pretty good deal when you buy them directly from the government at treasurydirect.gov), to multinational corporate stock (they make money everywhere, not just in the U.S.), to real estate (see above), to timber or precious minerals.

In short, if you've got even modest assets (e.g., a 401(k) plan), then you can take modest steps to insulate yourself against dollar devaluation. The only people who get really screwed are the poor, of course, since they have no investments. If the economy and government spending don't get straightened out soon, then you can easily imagine negative consequences.

Posted by: bbowman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 17:44

Quote:
So what am I doing about it? I don't know what to do. I'm just a single grumpy old curmudgeon whose only avenue of power is the ballot box, and even though I excercise that minute bit of power regularly, it appears to be totally ineffective. I cannot even remember the last time someone I voted for actually won an election. So I am taking the coward's way out and abandoning the mess for others to clean up. If they can, which I feel is unlikely.

That brings up an interesting idea. I think it would be neat to have a negative vote. If you don't really support any candidate, you can place an anitvote for a least desired cadidate which would negate someone elses vote for that candidate. I'm sure that if that were in place during the last election, things would have turned out much different.

Such a system would discourage a candidate from catering to a single group and cater more to the general populace in a more generic approach. We would have much better candidates that way.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 17:56

Quote:
That brings up an interesting idea. I think it would be neat to have a negative vote. If you don't really support any candidate, you can place an anitvote for a least desired cadidate which would negate someone elses vote for that candidate. I'm sure that if that were in place during the last election, things would have turned out much different.

I think IRV is a much better solution. It allows a "least desired candidate" to be penalized, but still requires that the voter support *someone* who they think can do the job. There's no real good done if you just negate someone else's vote without supporting another candidate, IMHO.

Posted by: bbowman

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 18:07

I probably should have replaced the phrase "least desired candidate" with "hated candidate". That way it makes more sense, but the IVF is certainly a better method even if it does require a little more inteligence from the voter.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 05/07/2007 22:29

Quote:
One point you raise, currency devaluation, is a curious problem. [snip] Of course, you can make inflation work for you instead of against you. Big home mortgage? Big win if the dollar devalues.

Trust me, I have given this a lot of consideration. I am torn between two courses of action. (1) Be greatly in debt and let the lenders suffer the consequences of a devalued dollar; or (2) the "bunker mentality" of being beholden to no-one and thus my assets will be safe.

#1 is distasteful to me, the idea of deliberately taking action to set myself up to profit from others' misfortune does not sit well with my personal sense of morality.

#2 feels more secure to me, although I am quite willing to accept that I may be reasoning from insufficient knowledge. My plans are to build my new home in Mexico without a mortgage, owning the property and the house free and clear. I have enough land and suitable climate with the house to grow food should it become necessary. My only inescapable financial obligations will be annual taxes on the house (~$200 per year!), and utility payments that will run considerably more but which I may be able for the most part to avoid.

My wife and I both have medical insurance as long as our pensions remain solvent (something we are not counting on!) so one potentially major expense is somewhat alleviated.

I am prepared to hunker down in my fortress of a house (8" thick masonry walls, steel bars on the windows, 6' stone wall with razor wire surrounding the whole property, etc.) and wait it out, hoping that my paranoid doomsday scenario never actually comes to pass.

Above all, I keep in mind that no matter how bad it gets, I will still be among the fortunate few. My problems, real or anticipated, are completely trivial compared to those of billions of other people on this planet. There are people who only have time and resources to try and "...steal enough food to keep the baby alive for one more day, and hope the bombers don't come again tonight..."

tanstaafl.

Posted by: FireFox31

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 08/07/2007 13:45

Quote:
8" thick masonry walls

Put a geothermal exchange in that bad boy and your heat/AC utilities will vanish. I've heard concrete homes have excellent thermal properties.

Maybe we should move to China or India and submit ourselves as slaves to the forthcoming empires before they subjugate us in 30 years or so. You know, get a jump start on things, have time to learn the local dialects.

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 08/07/2007 16:29

Quote:

Trust me, I have given this a lot of consideration. I am torn between two courses of action. (1) Be greatly in debt and let the lenders suffer the consequences of a devalued dollar; or (2) the "bunker mentality" of being beholden to no-one and thus my assets will be safe.

Doesn't #1 imply a belief that you will remain employed at sufficient compensation levels to keep up with the debt load? There are a more than a few who are finding that difficult even now.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/07/2007 02:02

Quote:
Put a geothermal exchange in that bad boy and your heat/AC utilities will vanish. I've heard concrete homes have excellent thermal properties.

Heat/AC utilities will not be a problem. The climate there is so temperate that homes are normally built without means to either heat or cool them, and in fact the lavish B&B we stayed at over Christmas had the kitchen/dining area completely open to the outdoors with no provision for closing it off.

Electricity, water, and sewer will by my utility expenses. Electricity is expensive enough there that solar electrical generation may be cost effective. I don't know what the local regulations would be about installing my own septic system, but since my property is located only about 10 feet above the lake level (i.e., local water table) I don't think it would be possible in any case. There is a well on the property, but the water is not potable. Perhaps with adequate filtration/purification system...

The above scenarios would only take place if things went really badly. To start with I'll be on the utility grids like everyone else.

tanstaafl.

Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/07/2007 02:14

Quote:
Doesn't #1 imply a belief that you will remain employed at sufficient compensation levels to keep up with the debt load? There are a more than a few who are finding that difficult even now.

Yes... and no.

The idea is that your debt load (i.e., monthly payments) would remain fixed while your compensation level rose with inflation. If my expectations come to pass, over the next 3--5 years the debt you owe would not change dollar-wise, but the number of hours you had to work to pay it off would be cut by two-thirds.

You shouldn't look at indebtedness in terms of dollars. You should evaluate it in man-hours worked to pay it off.

In my case, option #1 is not possible, because my retirement income will for the most part be fixed without COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment). Hmmm... thinking about it, it's not as bleak as that: about 50% of it will be COLAed. But in five years there will be a lot less disposable income available to us than when we started out.

I keep thinking about the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." Well, I think things are going to get interesting.

tanstaafl.

Posted by: gbeer

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 09/07/2007 02:59

Well... There are a couple of declining industries here where people are rolling back their wages or are finding themselves looking for a new job and not finding the same wage scales available. That's sort of what I was thinking of.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 30/06/2017 05:25

10 years

Posted by: andy

Re: Apple iPhone announced. - 30/06/2017 06:28

I still remember getting to see (but not touch) Hugo's iPhone in a basement restaurant somewhere. A bunch of us just grilled him on how well the keyboard worked, I don't think any of us believed him when he said it worked really well

Apple iPhone announced.