HDTV Advice

Posted by: visuvius

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 15:30

HAHA Forum! I laugh in the face of your attempt to eat my post! I copied to Word before I submitted!! HAHA!

Ahem.

I spent a ton of time researching these things last December when I purchased my current tv and since then, the market hasn't changed too much except for some replacement models of last years sets which are basically the same thing.

For me, I knew I wanted a 50-60" Plasma right off the bat. I looked at all of the LCDs and while a couple of them were quite nice, they just didn't look as nice to me as the plasmas. A nice plasma just looks...richer. I dunno. The only LCDs I seriously considered were the Sony Bravia and Sharp Aquos. Both look great but again, when I compared them to some of the plasmas, they just didn't do it for me, especially when price was thrown into the mix.

And that is the other main variable. How much do you want to spend? I knew right off the bat that I wanted to spend $2,500 - $3,000. I figure I'm going to have it for quite a while and I'll be using it A LOT so I might as well invest in something nice. I also knew that I wanted HDMI (which most of them ended up having anyway) and some sort of PC connection.

After looking at a metric assload of plasmas, the first one I gravitated towards ended up being the one I purchased, the Pioneer PDP-5070. Hands down, its got the nicest picture, highest quality and greatest looking build of all comparably priced sets. The only other plasma I considered was last years Panasonic 50". Its also a great looking set at a lower price but the Pioneer is definitely the better of the two. I went to pretty much all the electronics stores in my area (Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's, Magnolia, Compusa, Microcenter) so I saw a lot of freakin' sets, and the Pioneer was basically the nicest. I also did my fair share of AVS reading and the Pioneer seems to be a pretty popular set there. The thing about AVS is, while you can find a ton of info on pretty much any particular TV, its sort of difficult to figure out which set most people favor since everyone raves about pretty much everything. It seemed like Pioneer and Panasonics were popular though.

After I figured out which one I wanted, I looked for the best price, which is pretty much always going to be online. I googled Pioneer Authorized Dealer and the first hit ended up being Pioneer's actual website where they provide links to like 25 authorized online dealers. Its important to buy from one of these dudes because then Pioneer will honor the 1 year warranty which I believe includes in home service. I bought my set from Beyond Plasma. Their website looks straight out of 1997 but they offered the best price (with insured shipping) and I got awesome service. I actually ended up purchasing the PDP-5080 for my parents about 6 weeks ago from them and everything went swimmingly. I think they carry all the major brands and I imagine they've got decent prices on those as well. As far as the warranty goes, I figured I was buying a pretty high quality set and I didn't worry about it too much. What I did make sure to do was to put it on my American Express which upped the one year in home service to two years. Pretty handy.

So I'm pretty partial to the Pioneers. There are other great looking sets but for some reason I liked the Pioneers the best. There is an Elite version of each of the Pioneer's and while the salesmen will tell you they look better, I found that it was pretty much not true. The only difference with the Elite is it has a display adjustment thing where you can make fine adjustments to a bunch of display settings. It also has a network connection for some kind of HTPC feature. It seemed interesting but I couldn't find too much information on it online and I was going to be connecting mine to a computer anyways so the non-Elite version was fine for me. There was also the HUGE price difference.

Finally, I know you said you wanted 1080p and I did too but after I looked at the price difference, and thought about how often I'd actually have a 1080p source, I went with a 1080i set. Now, in December of 2006, there was a greater price difference then there is now; prices on the 1080p sets are definitely coming down. For shits and giggles, I just called Beyond Plasma to check what the difference was and they are selling the 1080i Pioneer for $2,595 delivered and the 1080p Pioneer for $3,599 delivered. If I were in the market again, I would probably go with the 1080p since the price difference is less now. If you don't want to spend $3,599, there is a great Panasonic 1080p that I saw at Price Club. I forgot the price but I remember it being pretty good.

Dude, this post got way too long but I thought i might as well share. Slow day at work and all.

Edit to mention the burn in thing. Apparently, while this is still an issue, some of the sets have built in "burn in reversal" features. I think it flashes a white image across the screen for a long time and it basically reverses the burn in. According to some people I talked to, you can do it yourself as well by doing the same thing. The guy at Beyond Plasma said to put a pure white image on the screen for several hours and that it would help significantly.

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 15:31

Sharp Aquos LCDs are supposed to be fantastic.

It meets a lot of your criteria:

1. 50-60" size (they have a 57" and 65" model too)
2. little to no burn-in
3. high quality picture
4. full 1080p
5. widescreen
6. no bulb to change

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 15:55

If you don't need the mounting flexibility of a flat panel (LCD, Plasma) then you'll get more bang for your buck with a rear projector.

The Sony SXRD sets are excellent. The SXRD panel is high contrast, high fill factor and good color but without the flicker/rainbow issues of DLP's that use a color wheel. The scaler/deinterlacer does a good job. The out of the box calibration is quite good but if you are extra picky there is a lot available without having to go into scary service menus. The input flexibility is good with the latest models even supporting the fancy schmancy 1080p/24fps mode that some HD-DVD and BluRay players can output. I've been very happy with mine.

It does have a replaceable bulb but it's rated for something like 8000 hours which is a hell of a lot of TV to watch.

Whatever you decide, my best advice is get the biggest screen that is reasonable for your room. It may seem shocking at first but you'll quickly get used to size.

Posted by: Waterman981

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 16:55

I just got a Samsung DLP rear projection TV a couple months ago. Most DLP sets do have a bulb to replace, and color wheel to break, but this year Samsung introduced a DLP TV using 3 LED's for its light source. This eliminated the replacement bulbs, and the color wheel. I got a 61", but the do also have a couple 56" & 50" sets available. Last time I looked Amazon was the price leader on the 61" at ~$1,900.

Pros:
LED light engine, no bulb or color wheel (Also no color wheel no rainbow effect)
Very good with lots of ambient light, with fantastic color reproduction.
Full 1080p
10,000:1 contrast ratio, good blacks.
DLP is free from burn-in
Picture in Picture
Very affordable.

Cons:
Viewing angle is important for best picture, both vertical and horizontal. It still looks good though when you are outside the "sweet spot."
1080p60, so it won't play back HD media in 24fps.
LED light engine is new tech, I believe they have started on the 2nd gen sets now, but there is no definite reliability data. But the LED's should last 20,000 or 200,000 hours... (don't remember which)

I am really happy with mine, and would buy it again in a heartbeat! Best Buy & Circuit City should have it on their floor if you want to look at it.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 18:36

Samsung's LED backlit LCD: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/lcds/first-ha...ever-312112.php

Olevia LCD links: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hdtv/wired-na...gory-314444.php

Olevia 65" LCD: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/olevia-rolls-out-cheap-65+inch-lcd-hdtv-310921.php

New Sharp LCDs: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/breaking/shar...ever-289540.php

Posted by: Cris

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 19:25

I had spent years and years thinking about buying a Plasma/LCD TV, and about 6 months ago I took the plunge and bought a 50 inch Pioneer.

It isn't full HD, it only does 1080p/24 and like Mark pointed out it isn't native at this res.

My advice to you would be ignore everything you read or other people tell you and go demo a few in a proper demo room, viewing them at a store it pointless. Take along the sort of films you watch etc... and check to see if they can put a normal TV signal up for you.

Also, if you can go round to mates house and watch a few films on theirs, this is how I decided plasma was for me, I found the LCD's to brash and bright for my eyes, but a good plasma gave me the movie feel I was looking for.

There will always be a new box that is better than yours, think carefully about what you need now and test everything you can find in your price range. Pioneer was a new brand to me, but this TV will last me years, I suspect until the panel burns out.

Cheers

Cris.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 19:32

Since we've been talking about it elsewhere, what's the power consumption of plasma vs. LCD vs. DLP w/bulb vs. DLP w/LCD vs. something else?

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 20:19

CNet's HDTV World looks like it might have some useful information.

Posted by: hybrid8

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 20:51

Are they comparing a 50" LCD to a 13" CRT?

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 31/10/2007 20:59

It looks like maybe they may be averaging all of the TVs they reviewed in each category. And, yeah, the CRTs are small as compared to the others.

Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 03:42

They got rid of that program. People were *surprise* taking advantage of it and they caught on.

Posted by: drakino

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 03:52

The better stats from that page are these for power usage:

Quote:
Microdisplay rear projector: 0.14 watt per square inch
LCD: 0.29 watt per square inch
Plasma: 0.34 watt per square inch
CRT: 0.34 watt per square inch

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 06:54

This is indeed a complex question that really only you can answer. Along with what you have mentioned as criteria what other things are important to you? Is color accuracy more important than brightness? Just how much ambient light will there be? What is the source? What is the style of the room that the set will be used in? How do you want to mount it? Do you need it to have speakers or will you be using a separate sound system?
How many HDMI inputs will you need? Will you be using it with a PC? Do you require 1:1 pixel mapping?

I have a Sony Wega III in the living room that I have had for more than three years. It is a RP LCD and I have never had to change the bulb. I’m guessing that it is approaching 7000 hours of use. The screen material is such that it works very well in an area were reflections off of the screen are an issue as the screen has almost a matte finish.

I have a 42” Maxent plasma in the bedroom that is going on 1 year old. I paid less than $1000.00 for it. It is certainly not one of the best sets out there but it has served me well and was a bargain in my opinion. The plasma is MUCH brighter then the RP LCD but is prone to ghost images and has a very shiny screen that is not well suited for areas with a lot of reflected light. Plasmas are notorious for delivering a very bright, over saturated image. The light output will diminish over time with a plasma and can not be regained. If you like a bright picture and use the set with the contrast set high this will speed up the process. I very very rarely buy warrantees as I am of the belief that they are a waste of money but I did buy it for this. At $99.00 I felt it was worth it. I have heard good things about Mack warrantees but have never bought one personally.

I also have a JVC RS1 in a home theater. This is a FP that projects the image onto a 126” 16:9 screen. This is in a totally light controlled environment. It is by far the most pleasing and color accurate system that I own. While this is true I don’t think I would chose this as my choice if it were going to be the sole device that I would use for viewing.

I won’t even go DLP I am very susceptible to DLP rainbow effect.

I have somewhere a chart that examines screen resolution vs. eye acuity vs. distance to screen. I can’t find it at the moment but depending on what you intend to do you might find that you can’t tell the difference between 720p and 1080p in your environment.

Good Luck, there are a lot of choices out there the good thing is that there are few really bad ones.

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 11:08

Quote:
They got rid of that program. People were *surprise* taking advantage of it and they caught on.

??? Not around here they didn't. I think they shortened it from "forever" to "xx months", but it's still the best return policy in the biz.

Cheers

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 12:27

Quote:
We guarantee your satisfaction on every product we sell with a full refund. Exceptions: Televisions, projectors, computers, cameras, camcorders, iPOD / MP3 players and cellular phones must be returned within 90 days of purchase for a refund.

from Costco.com

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 16:43

Quote:
It isn't full HD, it only does 1080p/24 and like Mark pointed out it isn't native at this res.

Are you saying the resolution of the panel is not 1920x1080?

Posted by: Cris

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 17:32

Quote:
Are you saying the resolution of the panel is not 1920x1080?

Yes, the input is scaled to the resolution of the panel, I don't have that info to hand, but it is very common in plasma panels. The Pioneer seems to do a very good job, and so far the panel has surpassed my expectations in every area.

My original point was that I think there is an obsession with facts and figures when buying TV's but what is important is if you (the buyer) are happy with the end result. For me the weird black detail and over brightness of many LCD panels was enough for me to purchase a panel that doesn't have features that I could have got at that price point, but it's the right one for me.

Don't read reviews, go and demo stuff in a real demo room, or at least not in a brightly lit show room.

Cheers

Cris.

Edit - My Pioneer PDP-507XD has a native res of 1365 x 768 the image processor is capable of scaling a 1080p/24 to this res, but can't scale other 1080p signals. 1080p/24 is what most Blu-Ray are encoded with, so the panel is future proof to some extent.

Posted by: Cris

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 17:54

Quote:
Thankfully most of the new big plasmas really do have 1080 lines.

Very true, but the new Pioneer PDP-LX508D costs in at about £3400(ish with options I have), which is just about double I paid for mine 6 months ago.

Back to your budget I guess.

Cheers

Cris.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 18:13

Quote:
My original point was that I think there is an obsession with facts and figures when buying TV's but what is important is if you (the buyer) are happy with the end result.

Yes, but the facts and figures can help you keep things in mind when you're actually looking at the TVs, like paying attention to brightness or reflectivity or viewing angle that you might not think of in the 3 minutes you're standing in front of the TV, not to mention the things that are impossible to "see", like burn-in potential or if it has the HD-connector-of-the-week, or even things that might not occur to you at all, like "you mean I can hook it up to my TV?" or "it consumes how much power?"

Posted by: Cris

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 18:16

Quote:
...and it a year's time I'll cost the same as what you paid...

Yes, I looked at it form the point of view that it was a (very!) good price for a top of the line TV that was exactly what I was looking for. When I come to replace it the market will have fully settled, but my 32 inch non-flat CRT had come to the end of it's life as part of my system after almost 9 years.

I got the price down to about £1800 inc a full 5 year warranty with John Lewis, using a combination of price match (their ticket was £2700) buying vouchers at a discount, credit card cashback and finally another price match after I had the TV for a month (can't beat John Lewis for their "Never Knowingly Under Sold" policy!), at this time even Empire Direct had it up at £2100. Oh and I sold the stand I didn't need for £100.

Cheers

Cris.

Posted by: Cris

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 18:23

Quote:
that you might not think of in the 3 minutes you're standing in front of the TV

My point exactly. When I spend £2000 ($4000) on a TV I spend a little more than 3 minutes. A proper demo should last as long as you need it to. I even took my macbook along to try the PC input

Of course the tech spec is important to make sure it fits into your system well, but shouldn't be the basis of the decision. And I really don't think the magazine review are worth the paper they are printed on, so I ignore them. Same thing with HiFi, it's what your ears hear that's important. For example I am sure plenty of people will tell you valve amps are rubbish, but my value headphone amp is the best thing I have ever heard (at my price point!). I think your eyes are as individual as your ears, so that's more important than anything else.

Cheers

Cris.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 18:50

My point is that if you don't have some preexisting information, you quickly reach a point where you're just staring at a TV with no purpose. No new questions or observations are going to pop into your head. Whereas if you have some specific things in mind, it's going to take you longer to observe those things, and the longer you stand in front of the TV actually paying attention to it, as opposed to drooling while watching the same scene from your Lord of the Rings DVD for the twentieth time in a row, the more chances you're going to notice something out of the ordinary, even if it's not something that's on your list.

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 19:18

Quote:

Edit - My Pioneer PDP-507XD has a native res of 1365 x 768

Yeah, my 37" Viewsonic LCD TV has 1366x768 native resolution. And that's the only mode I ever use, as it is fed from my MythTV box over DVI-D -> HDMI at 1360x768 digital resolution from X11.

Looks fantastic, and doesn't dominate the (small) room like a more massive set might.

Cheers

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 01/11/2007 20:17

Here's the spreadsheet I was looking for

Posted by: LittleBlueThing

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 12:31

See here:
http://www.firingsquad.com/print_article.asp?current_section=Hardware&fs_article_id=2265

Quite interesting.

I also seem to recall that for good home hifi, bigger is better

Basically people asked to rate how they enjoyed a film rated bigger screens more than higher def screens.

Of course I have a 2.8m projector that can do HD but usually does SD so I would say that

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 16:22

I see the empeg BBS lamp hasn't lost its magical powers! You guys rule.

Regarding my price range, I'd be willing to go up to about $3500, plus whatever it costs for an extended service plan. Going beyond that would require a very good reason to do so.

On the flat-panel (LCD/plasma) vs. rear projection question, I really don't need the flexibility that a flat panel provides. I don't plan on mounting on a wall, and have enough room for the bulkier rear projection models if it's needed. I had a hunch that the rear projection models might provide more value, and that seems to be supported by many of the responses here.

Regarding the DLP sets, I don't know if I'm susceptible to the rainbow effect, but the fact that the LEDs last longer and draw less power is very appealing. If I do go with DLP I think I'll probably get one of the ones with LEDs. The LCoS technology looks interesting, but I have a bit of an anti-Sony bias due to other Sony products I've owned, and the JVC LCoS models seem to have mediocre reviews. The Sony SXRD models do get good reviews though, so I will definitely take a look at one of them.

The way things look now, if I do go the plasma or LCD route, I'm probably topping out at about 50" at my current price range; whereas going with DLP could get me into the 60" range with LED or all the way up to 72" with a bulb. I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.

I agree with the sentiment that what's important is how the picture looks *to me* and not what specs the TV has, but I want to go into the stores with as much info as possible so I can make an informed decision. If I know a set has been reviewed and the reviewers found screen uniformity issues, problems with high-motion scenes, etc. I want to look for those things specifically and see if they bother me. Maybe I'll notice them under normal conditions, maybe I won't, but it's good to get an idea before shelling out thousands of dollars.

At this point based on input here and the reviews I've read, I'm leaning towards one of the newer DLP models with LED from Samsung, but I'll be looking at the Aquos, the Sony LCoS, and a few other DLPs as well. If I decide I can get by with a 50" screen, I'll throw a few of the plasmas into the mix as well.

Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 16:50

Quick query. Do all HDTVs display SD pixelated? All the ones I've seen look hideous when showing SD. 90% of the time I'd be watching SD as my only HD sources are DVD and Xbox.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 16:53

Yeah, SD quality is going to be a significant factor for m as I evaluate them in person. From reviews, it appears some HD sets handle SD better than others. The good thing is this is a concern that will dwindle over time as more HD channels appear.

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 17:48

I have the JVC HD56FH96 (LCOS) and only have a few issues. My model doesn't have 1080p input but HD56FH97 does. My other issues are connecting my PC to requires me to enable to overscan options in the NVidia drivers since the TV has about a 5% overscan. My last issue is with the input selector, you can't just pick input1, you have to press input then up or down to change and you have to wait for each input to tune before moving to the next input.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 18:08

Do HDTV signals generally assume there is overscan or, since it's a very specific digital resolution, should TVs be displaying all of the pixels as sent to them?

Posted by: siberia37

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 18:20

I think overscan is still a problem/issue. Even my HDTV tuner on my computer shows a couple pixel rows of static unless I adjust overscan settings in MythTV.

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 18:54

Quote:
Do HDTV signals generally assume there is overscan or, since it's a very specific digital resolution, should TVs be displaying all of the pixels as sent to them?

Overscan comes from the age of CRTs with less than straight edges when people were also sticking all sorts of junk in the VBI. Most broadcasters leave 5 or 10% as an 'unsafe area' around the edge of the screen to deal with various levels of overscan. With a digital picture you should assume all the active picture is visible.

My main LCD at home exhibits almost no overscan on DTT and none on the HDMI inputs.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 19:47

I forgot we had a broadcast professional.

There are actually CRT HDTVs. I won one and a friend owns one, too. Ours probably overscan.

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 20:16

My Local Fox station has the right side of the X cut off due to my TV's overscan, but I am using a TiVo connected via component cables. I haven't tried using the HDMI because I was already using all of the HDMI ports on my TV. I also haven't connected the cable directly to the TV to see if this happens on it. An HDMI scaler / switch will allow me to fix this.

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 02/11/2007 20:22

I find on-screen logos are the most troublesome. Very hard to position it right, you either risk having the edges knocked off (as already mentioned) or having it so far in it interferes with the action on screen.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 00:12

Quote:
The LCoS technology looks interesting, but I have a bit of an anti-Sony bias due to other Sony products I've owned, and the JVC LCoS models seem to have mediocre reviews. The Sony SXRD models do get good reviews though, so I will definitely take a look at one of them.

I have no love for Sony as a company, but IMO they still make excellent TVs. Mine handles SD content very well, has excellent black levels considering it's rear projection.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 04:54

Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player!

(I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 13:28

Quote:
Do you guys really use your TV's to upscale content? I can't remember the last time I had to do that. OK, when I used a Laserdisc player! (I really do have one but since Grand Prix came out Hi-Def and Flash Gordon finally made it to DVD I have not turned it on.) Everything I view is at least 1080i native or is upconverted by the player BEFORE the TV every sees it.

The way I understood it, it's not something you "turn on." At least not on my TV. If the native resolution is 1080p, isn't it just taking all content and "upconverting" it to 1080p?

I was under the impression that you basically had a choice of whether the video processor on your TV does it, or if you get another device to do it. For example, I have an upconverting DVD player, but I leave it at 480p because I don't think it would have as good a video processor as my TV does. Besides, it can only go up to 1080i, and then my TV has to do the rest of the work anyway.

Then again, I'm probably completely wrong on this

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 14:44

My DVD player is a cheapo LG. I like it for all the formats it can play, but I'm not sure it will have the greatest scaler in it. I'd rather trust my Sony's.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 16:25

Ok, that makes sense. Upscaling is always easier than down scaling anyway. Upscaling is the duplication of pixels instead of the removal of content like downscaling. I've always thought that if you are going to spend $3000.00 on a TV that spending a couple hundred on a player with a good scaler is justified. FWIW, Walmart had the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player on sale for $98.00 yesterday. The A2 has a good scaler plus the ability to watch HD-DVD's and the ability to output True-HD audio via PCM on the HDMI output. I guess that those that are looking to buy a new TV should look at the scaler that it uses then make their choice based on that in regards to if a better player is justified.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=932570

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 19:45

Quote:
Upscaling is always easier than down scaling anyway.

I wouldn't say that, in fact, I would've thought the opposite was true.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 03/11/2007 21:41

Perhaps the word “easier” was the wrong one to use. Maybe “better” would have been more accurate. Although I do think that it is easier too!

It is my understanding that it is always better to duplicate content then to remove it. When something is upscaled nothing is lost. When something is downscaled content IS lost. While artifacts are an issue with both processes I think it is felt that the end result is almost always better when upscaling as opposed to downscaling. It is the loss of content that makes the downscaling process more difficult. I don’t mean in it’s simpliest form of just removing pixels but when it is done with picture quality in mind. In order to minimize the effect of downscaling the processor must have the ability to work in an adaptive manner to produce a picture that is still pleasing to the eye. When upscaling I don’t think the task is quite as difficult. It is this complexity that places me in the buy a decent player with a good scaler camp.

Posted by: tman

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 00:30

Quote:
It is my understanding that it is always better to duplicate content then to remove it. When something is upscaled nothing is lost. When something is downscaled content IS lost.

Unless your output resolution is an exact multiple of the input resolution then you're doing interpolation. You've not exactly lost anything but you're not getting what you put in. What you have to do is trust the upscalers algorithms to do it the "right" way. The more you pay, the better in theory the algorithms inside the upscaler. Your monitor/TV will already have an upscaler inside but your super expensive external box will hopefully do a better job.

Quote:
While artifacts are an issue with both processes I think it is felt that the end result is almost always better when upscaling as opposed to downscaling. It is the loss of content that makes the downscaling process more difficult. I don’t mean in it’s simpliest form of just removing pixels but when it is done with picture quality in mind. In order to minimize the effect of downscaling the processor must have the ability to work in an adaptive manner to produce a picture that is still pleasing to the eye. When upscaling I don’t think the task is quite as difficult. It is this complexity that places me in the buy a decent player with a good scaler camp.

Up and down scaling both require interpolation which gets pretty complicated. A naive implementation would be to just duplicate or remove rows. It'll do the job but it'll look terrible.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 02:20

I'm also in the market for one of these things, and I'm very interested in getting an LCD flat panel that really and truly runs at 1080p/60, which should make for a fine home theater PC monitor. My question is how I can truly tell if a given set actually supports this? Do I need to borrow a Mac laptop with the appropriate mini DVI -> DVI -> HDMI cabling and just try each TV in sequence to see which ones do the right thing?

Posted by: gbeer

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 02:59

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/index.html

This article is good, but is getting out of date as far as tested displays go.

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 10:39

Quote:
I'm also in the market for one of these things, and I'm very interested in getting an LCD flat panel that really and truly runs at 1080p/60, which should make for a fine home theater PC monitor. My question is how I can truly tell if a given set actually supports this? Do I need to borrow a Mac laptop with the appropriate mini DVI -> DVI -> HDMI cabling and just try each TV in sequence to see which ones do the right thing?

The user manual / spec sheets usually say what the native resolution is.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 13:11

I'm willing to believe that if they say the native resolution is 1920x1080 that it will be. The question is whether it will be willing to digest a 60Hz non-interlaced signal from a computer at that resolution and display it without any nonsense. So far as I can tell, the only way to guarantee this is to test it yourself (unless somebody else with the exact model has managed to make it work in the past).

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 14:39

Quote:
I'm willing to believe that if they say the native resolution is 1920x1080 that it will be. The question is whether it will be willing to digest a 60Hz non-interlaced signal from a computer at that resolution and display it without any nonsense. So far as I can tell, the only way to guarantee this is to test it yourself (unless somebody else with the exact model has managed to make it work in the past).

Again, the spec sheets often have most of that information. For example, here is the spec sheet for a model similar to the one I have (advertised as 1080i).

In there, it clearly says the PC resolution should be 1360x768 (max), but doesn't specify refresh (60Hz works just fine). EDIT: Ah ha! this link includes the refresh spec, 1360x768@60Hz.

I actually feed it from the PC (Myth) via an HDMI input (from DVI-D) at 1360x768x60Hz.

Hopefully you can find similar spec sheets for whatever models you are considering. My criteria was simply: 37" LCD, CHEAP! (CDN$1000 a year ago), 1366x768 or better, DVI-D or HDMI input, and acceptable picture quality (hey, it's a TV for cripes sake!).

There was no point in looking at picture quality reviews, since most of them focussed on the picture from the internal ATSC/NTSC tuners, which I never use. Nowadays, the reviewers probably pay the most attention to the HDMI inputs (good).

Cheers

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 14:44

And here is an example of something you want to avoid: claims 1920x1080 native resolution, but only allows 1360x768 max digital input from a PC... they're probably lying about the native resolution.

Cheers

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 14:58

This one has 1920x1080p digital-in from PC. Refresh not specified, but I believe it's always 60Hz for this stuff.

EDIT: Yep, the user manual for that one does indeed say 1920x1080x60Hz.

-ml

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 15:02

Quote:
And here is an example of something you want to avoid: claims 1920x1080 native resolution, but only allows 1360x768 max digital input from a PC... they're probably lying about the native resolution.

Cheers

My Sony KDL40W2000U says exactly the same, but that's for the VGA input. I'm never going to use it. My MythTV frontend has got a DVI connector so I just bought a DVI->HDMI cable. With the right modeline settings I have 1080p on it.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 15:07

mlord's link to a Westinghouse set is interesting. It's got the right inputs and (presumably) would meet my needs for the display of a home theater PC. I'm going to do the real shopping for one of these things post-Christmas. I hope to get some kind of great deal on an open-box special or some other sort of firesale. We'll have to see how well that works.

Any advice on this?

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 18:12

Quote:
And here is an example of something you want to avoid: claims 1920x1080 native resolution, but only allows 1360x768 max digital input from a PC... they're probably lying about the native resolution.

Cheers

Here's a review on this set. It claims that this is a true 1080 set. If you connect to it with your PC via HDMI than you can use the full resolution. Like Andy's Sony I think the specs about proper input resolution for the PC reflect bandwidth limitations of the VGA analog input and not the true native resolution of the panel.

http://www.i4u.com/full-review-309.html

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 19:39

Great. So accepting (digital) 1920x1080x60Hz is looking like a given for most any set that has true 1920x1080 native resolution.

Do we have *any* counter examples?

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 04/11/2007 22:55

I went to Walmart today and sure enough they had the A2 for $98.00 so I bought one. If anyone is interested you need to get it today. It's the last day of the sale.

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 12:15

This came up on a bargain site this morning for the Sony 60 SXRD in store at Circuit City.

http://techbargains.com/news_displayitem.cfm/103291

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 13:54

That looks like a great price. Unfortunately I can't do in-store pickup and won't be moving into the new house for another couple weeks. Though, if it's anything like last year's holiday season, there will be no shortage of deep discounts on HDTVs.

On a slight tangent, going HD means I need to find a DVR solution to replace my ReplayTV or I'm stuck with standard definition DVR capabilities. What are my options? I use DirecTV, and I know they have DVRs available, but I've read that the software is pretty awful, or used to be. Are there any other legitimate options using standalone DVRs with DirecTV for HD content, or am I stuck with whatever DirecTV gives me?

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 16:32

DirecTV's PVR isn't too bad. I'd say it's the best of the service provider boxes, but IMO the UI is nothing compared to a Tivo (I don't have any experience with Replay, though).

It's probably a long shot for the place you're moving, but you could check if it has FIOS. I love FIOS. Then you could get the TivoHD.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 17:15

The new place does have FIOS and I will definitely be getting FIOS internet, but I think I need to stay with DirecTV for the much larger selection of HD channels, particularly the NFL package. I also have a bit of a distaste for TiVo's subscription model, though I imagine there's a DVR fee on DirecTV as well.

Unless I'm missing something, the story is sad on the MythTV front for DirecTV users who want to record HD content, so I'm probably stuck with the DirecTV unit regardless.

EDIT: Well, I guess you *can* record DirecTV HD programs to MythTV, but it's might 'spensive:

http://169time.com/index.html#fustb

Posted by: DWallach

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 17:18

With DirecTV you may still be able to get a Tivo HD10-250. It won't be able to get the newer HD channels, which are broadcast on a new satellite in MPEG-4. It gets HD locals from an OTA antenna. This at least gets you the essential Tivo UI, but you don't get all the shiny new Tivo features you might want.

That's what I used before and I was entirely happy with it. However, for my new house, I'm debating what I want to do. There's no Verizon FIOS in Houston, although AT&T is rolling out their U-verse service, which looks like it won't work for me. (You can only record one HD show at a time, and if you're recording one HD show, you can't view another one!) That basically leaves DirecTV or Comcast. Since I'd really like to have one of the new TivoHD's, that pretty much means Comcast.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 17:31

Quote:
The new place does have FIOS and I will definitely be getting FIOS internet, but I think I need to stay with DirecTV for the much larger selection of HD channels, particularly the NFL package. I also have a bit of a distaste for TiVo's subscription model, though I imagine there's a DVR fee on DirecTV as well.

I can understand that. I only watch a couple games a week, so I don't need the NFL package (though you might need it just to follow your old local team).

The advantage that FIOS has over DirecTV, I gather, is that their infrastructure doesn't require much at all in order to add new channels. They don't need to launch new satellites (which, by the way, my parents can't see because they keep launching satellites with lower and lower orbits). Again, I could be wrong about this, but apparently they are planning to add a bunch of new HD channels, I just don't know when...

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 17:36

A friend of mine has the DirecTV HD PVR. It doesn't suck, but it comes close. The new HD feeds have already been turned on.

I haven't heard anything negating the rumor that the new DirecTV owners will go back to TiVo, but I haven't heard anything confirming it, either, other than having had it repeated to me by a DirecTV CSR when I called to cancel after my HDirectTiVo broke.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 17:37

Also, it would be cool if DirecTV would implement a DirecTV decoder as a CableCard so that I could switch between cable and DirecTV without huge issues.

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 19:00

Lest you get tempted to switch to cable, I can assure you that the TimeWarner HD DVR does suck. Bigtime.

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 05/11/2007 19:28

Quote:
A friend of mine has the DirecTV HD PVR. It doesn't suck, but it comes close.

I'd be more generous than that. It was a very sad day last month when I decided that getting the new DirecTV HD content was more important than TiVo. But the DirecTV unit isn't that bad. It's even better in some small ways though the overall interface is a mess compared to the beauty that is TiVo. But once you know how to get around it's non-intuitive menu structure, day to day use isn't really much different than TiVo.

Posted by: DWallach

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 04:32

Quote:
Lest you get tempted to switch to cable, I can assure you that the TimeWarner HD DVR does suck. Bigtime.

However, a Series 3 TiVo or TiVoHD accepts CableCard, allowing you to bring your own TiVo to the party and get all the HD channel goodness that TimeWarner or Comcast wants to overcharge you for the privilege of receiving.

I originally switched to DirecTV because they had the only dual-channel TiVo (SD at the time), and it was glorious. Then I ponied up for the HD TiVo, and it was even more glorious. Now, it looks like I'll be switching back to vanilla cable so I can get one of these new CableCard units.

It's just a shame that the only vaguely "open" way to get HD (beyond what you can get over the air) is through the entrenched cable company. Otherwise, I'd be really tempted to try something like AT&T's Uverse, but not given the limitations and complaints that I've read about.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 18:28

It turns out DirecTV wants $199 for me to *rent* their HD-DVR. AND they want to charge me $5.99/mo for DVR service. fsck that!

I've decided what I'm going to do for now is keep DirecTV, upgrading to HD service, but staying with my two ReplayTV units for DVR functionality. DVRing of HD content is something I want, but not at that price, especially when I'd have to take several steps back in terms of functionality on the DVR itself.

Maybe some day this situation will sort itself out, but right now, it's too much of a mess.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 18:52

Ouch. Keep in mind that you can still get HD content from a -- uhh -- sideband provider and display it on your TV in any of a number of ways, from a MythTV to a new HD TiVo.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 19:03

Quote:
It turns out DirecTV wants $199 for me to *rent* their HD-DVR.

That's better than the $299 I paid for the HR20-700 and a shitload better than the $700 my father paid for the HR10-250. I can't say it's fair to pay upfront for leased equipment, but if it were free, then why wouldn't everyone just request an HD DVR? There would be no reason for non-HD, non-DVR equipment to exist. There is the option to buy an HR20 for about $800, but it makes very little sense to do so. Under the lease plan, if your HR20 becomes obsoleted (like the HR10-250 was), you would be issued new equipment. If you purchase your receiver, DirecTV has no obligation to give you new equipment for free (like what happened with the HR10-250)

Quote:
AND they want to charge me $5.99/mo for DVR service. fsck that!

And the $13 per month per stand-alone TiVo is a better value? The $5.99 fee covers all DVRs in your house. Dish Network, for example, charges $5.98 per DVR on your account. In comparison, DirecTV is a bargain if you have multiple DVRs (I have 6 on my account).

Quote:
I've decided what I'm going to do for now is keep DirecTV, upgrading to HD service, but staying with my two ReplayTV units for DVR functionality. DVRing of HD content is something I want, but not at that price, especially when I'd have to take several steps back in terms of functionality on the DVR itself.

I know some ReplayTV units can share shows over the internet. Other than this, I don't think the HR20/HR21 DirecTV DVRs can be cast aside so easily. In the beginning (I was a very early adopter), they were horrendous. However, at this point, they're perfectly usable and actually quite good. If I were offered a Series 3 Tivo with DirecTV tuning capability today in exchange for my HR20s, I don't think I would make the switch. I don't think Tivo is worse, I just wouldn't gain much.

The $5.99 DVR fee DirecTV charges actually gives you tangible results for your money. They have been operating a beta program they call Cutting Edge. About once a week, they will throw beta builds of the HR20 firmware up on the satellite. If you force a software update during these published times, you will get to test new code. Some of the new features that were given to the Cutting Edge program first were OTA HD reception, home media streaming, Video on Demand (over ethernet), and a slew of other GUI and operational refinements.

When DirecTV collects $5.99 for a DirecTiVo DVR, you get nothing for your money. The Series 1 & 2 DirecTiVo code has not been updated in over a year (except for daylight savings changes). And before that, updates were only released months or years apart.

Quote:
Maybe some day this situation will sort itself out, but right now, it's too much of a mess.

The HR21 should be available soon. This is the HR20, but without the OTA tuners. This will make manufacturing cheaper, but who knows if the savings will be passed on to the customer. I'd say that's as good as you can hope for at the moment. I don't see the $5.99 DVR fee changing. They now have a tier of service with the DVR fee rolled-in. I don't know if it's discounted in that package, but at least they'll be hiding the DVR fee inside the programming fee. Maybe you won't notice it then.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 19:16

Quote:
I can't say it's fair to pay upfront for leased equipment, but if it were free, then why wouldn't everyone just request an HD DVR?

They could charge more per month for the rent for the HD PVR than for the SD PVR. Or only offer the HD PVRs to people who pay for an HD package.

I think his point was that they need to either charge you per-month or charge you a lump sum once, not both.

Quote:
The Series 1 & 2 DirecTiVo code has not been updated in over a year (except for daylight savings changes). And before that, updates were only released months or years apart.

While that's true, by everyone's account, that was DirecTV's fault, not TiVo's. Apparently DirecTV didn't want to incur the cost of training their CSRs. Obviously, they do now, but they're also propping up Rupert Murdoch's favorite PVR developer, Pace Micro.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 19:33

Quote:
I think his point was that they need to either charge you per-month or charge you a lump sum once, not both.

Like Tivo does by charging $599.99 for a Series 3, and then $16.95 per month to keep it running?

Where I live Time Warner Cable wants $20 per HD DVR per month. This breaks down as $10 for box rental, and $10 for DVR service.

I'm sorry, but unless you have lifetime Tivo service or lifetime ReplayTV, DirecTV is the clear winner (for me).

Quote:
While that's true, by everyone's account, that was DirecTV's fault, not TiVo's.

True, but the fee is still being taken.

Quote:
...they're also propping up Rupert Murdoch's favorite PVR developer, Pace Micro.

Thomson is also a manufacturer of the HR20 series.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:03

Quote:

And the $13 per month per stand-alone TiVo is a better value?

No, but $0.00 per month for ReplayTV lifetime-activated units is pretty awesome.

Quote:

I know some ReplayTV units can share shows over the internet. Other than this, I don't think the HR20/HR21 DirecTV DVRs can be cast aside so easily. In the beginning (I was a very early adopter), they were horrendous. However, at this point, they're perfectly usable and actually quite good.

I don't doubt they're usable or quite good, but off the top of my head, ReplayTV wins vs. HR20 on the following :
* automatic commercial skip
* true, instantaneous 30 second skip
* instantaneous jump to any minute of the show
* multi-room (stream shows from DVR to DVR)
* aforementioned Internet sharing, which is awesome
* no monthly fee

HR20 wins on HD support, obviously, and the picture quality of SD content is probably better as well. Anything else? You said "home media streaming." Assuming that means multi-room viewing, okay, that's a draw. Evaluating the DVR scheduling, conflict resolution, etc. is subjective and difficult to quantify, but I have no problems with ReplayTV's software in this regard, so I don't know I'd notice any benefits of the HR20's scheduler.

HR20 also wins in the "currently supported product" category, but as long as my ReplayTVs don't blow up and they keep receiving guide data, the only benefit of going the HD20 route is the HD recording. I just can't justify spending $199 + $5.99/mo for that, and losing all the other goodies ReplayTV has.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:06

I'm sorry my opinion, as an owner of multiple HR20s, was so worthless.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:13

All of those are excellent points.

I do have to point out that there is a difference between paying a lump-sum up-front fee for rental versus a lump-sump payment for purchase. But it's a perfectly reasonable argument that you come out better with a rental, since the notion is that you'll get a replacement for free.

I have no experience with the HR20's conflict resolution. Can you give me a rundown of how it works?

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:16

Where did you see the Directv HD-DVR for 199? I can only find it for 299? You're not in Canada are you!

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:17

I didn't say that at all. I was just asking you what other things the HR20 has beyond HD support that would tip the balance in its favor. I obviously appreciate your insight, and wasn't trying to suggest your opinion was worthless -- just trying to see what I'd be missing if I go the ReplayTV route.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:19

I think it was some kind of $100 credit for new DirecTV users, which I would be if I canceled my DTV and established a new account at my new address.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 20:39

I have owned a ReplayTV 5040 in the past, so I am familiar with the product. However, I was never a heavy user of it because it doesn't make much sense (to me) to use that over a DirecTiVo with dual tuners.

I have used a ReplayTV 2000-series more extensively and the UI between that and the 5000-series seemed very similar to me. My opinion of it that it's pretty awful compared to a TiVo. I'm sure it's something that you can get used to, but I never caught on. The HR20 really wins on UI even against TiVo. The ability to have the current program running in a small window inside the guide or menu system is great. When using a TiVo now, it seems odd to me that the video and audio cut out completely when entering the menus.

Aside from a better UI, the HR20 would gain you access to video on demand similar to what cable offers. Most basic cable channels have their own VOD content/channel and the vast majority of the content is free. Available content can be snippets of shows, entire episodes, or full moves in the case of Starz On Demand.

VOD isn't a deal maker, but it's something you would lose if choosing HD cable and TiVo Series 3. It's also completely unavailable to Dish Network subscribers.

Home media streaming was referring to the streaming of audio stores on a computer. Video streaming (computer-to-HR20 and HR20-to-HR20) is apparently coming.

Conflict resolution is better than TiVo, but I can't compare it to ReplayTV. With TiVo, you're only faced with one show to cancel when all your tuners are busy at a given time. The HR20 will present you with the two shows it was intending to record and which one you would rather cancel. Season pass priority is handled similarly to TiVo.

Where the HR20 falls flat is dual live buffer. It will only buffer one buffer for up to 90 minutes. A DirecTiVo will buffer both tuners for up to 30 minutes each. I'd rather have the Tivo way.

The HR20's remote is also terrible. This is easily remedied by a Harmony remote, but that's another expense.

Quote:
* automatic commercial skip

this will never happen

Quote:
* true, instantaneous 30 second skip

30 second slip isn't as good, but not terrible. Stack up 5-6 of them and you're through a commercial break in less than 10 seconds.

Quote:
* instantaneous jump to any minute of the show

Only in 15 minute increments on the HR20.

Quote:
* multi-room (stream shows from DVR to DVR)

Supposed to be coming. I'll update my HR20 thread when it does I guess.

Quote:
* aforementioned Internet sharing, which is awesome

BitTorrent + HR20 when video streaming from a home computer becomes available?

Quote:
* no monthly fee

There was a service fee at some point. It just happened to be at a higher price and only occurred once.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 21:16

Rob, I agree with alot of what you're saying about DirecTV vs Tivo, but even if I could get DirecTV here, I would still go with Verizon/Tivo. I simply do not like the HR20's interface more than Tivo.

Also, just to be nit-picky, you seem to be throwing about various monthly service rates. I think you increased it from $13 to $16 in just one post

To be clear, it's $13 per month ($12.95) for a 3-year contract, and it's $17 per month (16.95) for a one year contract. I have every intention of keeping my Tivo service for well over three years, so I went with the longer contract.

Oh, and for every additional Tivo box you sign up for service, you get $6 per month off the additional plan. So two Tivo boxes on a three year contract would cost you $20 per month ($19.90).

I realize that these numbers are higher than what you get with DirecTV, but I just wanted to clarify, what with all these figures being thrown about.

*edit*
Actually, I just remembered something. When I was looking at which company I'd end up going with, I'm pretty sure that Verizon's service ended up being a little less expensive than DirecTV's, so I ended up even despite the Tivo service fee. Don't forget to factor that into the price comparison...

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 21:24

Quote:
The HR20 really wins on UI even against TiVo. The ability to have the current program running in a small window inside the guide or menu system is great.

Is that the only UI "improvement" you see? Because I find that marginally nice at best, and annoying at worst. It does minimize the UI space on the screen as you only have ¾ of the screen left available. (The video takes up the upper-right quadrant.) If given a choice, I would probably prefer the TiVo way.

The HR20 UI is unquestionably uglier, but that's probably neither here nor there.

Quote:
The HR20's remote is also terrible.

Totally agreed. Absolutely horrendous.

Quote:
Conflict resolution is better than TiVo, but I can't compare it to ReplayTV. With TiVo, you're only faced with one show to cancel when all your tuners are busy at a given time. The HR20 will present you with the two shows it was intending to record and which one you would rather cancel. Season pass priority is handled similarly to TiVo.

I've often wondered why the TiVo is set up this way. (I assume it's because it puts the new recording in the same queue it puts "normal" recordings in and there's not a good way to temporarily move the higher priority program down.) Generally speaking, though, as long as you have your priorities set up correctly, this is a non-issue 99% of the time. The one instance I can think of where it's not is when you want to record a different feed of the higher priority program instead of the one that would normally be recorded. It would be nice if it would at least tell you what the other recording is, though, even if you can't select it to not be recorded. (This might have been added, actually; it's been a while since I encountered this situation and really paid attention.)

TiVo does need a better prioritization UI, preferably at selection time. Basically, if there's a conflict at the time, you can choose whether to put the new season pass at the top or bottom of the list, and that's far from ideal. Not that I can think of a great solution. A beginning would be priority groups. Right now, I logically sort my season passes in a few groups: primetime network shows, primetime cable shows, non-primetime cable shows, filler. This is based on the fact that network shows only get run once, primetime cable shows get run a few times throughout the week, non-primetime cable shows get shown every 3 hours, and filler I don't really care if it misses or not. A similar schedule would be great built-in to the TiVo.

Does the HR20 do clipping or only full cancellation? TiVo added clipping at some point.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 21:26

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that Verizon's service ended up being a little less expensive than DirecTV's, so I ended up even despite the Tivo service fee. Don't forget to factor that into the price comparison...

Also factor in the three days you'll have to take off of work to get your cable company to fix the multitude of things that will go wrong with your CableCard installation.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 21:35

Quote:
I have owned a ReplayTV 5040 in the past, so I am familiar with the product. However, I was never a heavy user of it because it doesn't make much sense (to me) to use that over a DirecTiVo with dual tuners.

Ah, see! Dual tuners. That's a substantive thing that I wasn't even thinking about where the HR20 clearly wins over my solution, which involves two separate ReplayTVs (and thus two separate DirecTV receivers.)

Quote:

I have used a ReplayTV 2000-series more extensively and the UI between that and the 5000-series seemed very similar to me. My opinion of it that it's pretty awful compared to a TiVo. I'm sure it's something that you can get used to, but I never caught on.

That's fair, and the ReplayTV UI does look a bit dated, but in terms of the "I" part (the interface itself, not the aesthetics) I think it works great. Scheduling programs, editing record options, etc. couldn't be any easier.

Quote:

Aside from a better UI, the HR20 would gain you access to video on demand similar to what cable offers. Most basic cable channels have their own VOD content/channel and the vast majority of the content is free. Available content can be snippets of shows, entire episodes, or full moves in the case of Starz On Demand.

Yeah, my girlfriend has Comcast VOD. The whole VOD concept fails for me because the amount of available content is usually very limited. It gets better with HBO on demand etc. but the amount of standard freebie content would have me using VOD maybe once a month.

Quote:

Where the HR20 falls flat is dual live buffer. It will only buffer one buffer for up to 90 minutes. A DirecTiVo will buffer both tuners for up to 30 minutes each. I'd rather have the Tivo way.

There's another thing I hadn't considered. ReplayTV lets you live buffer up to the amount of disk space you have. Many hours if you like. I never understood why any of the newer DVRs imposed these small limits on how much live content you can buffer. I'm sure it's a technical limitation, but it's one I don't like.

Quote:
There was a service fee at some point. It just happened to be at a higher price and only occurred once.

Yeah, but remember, my question was why *I* should go to HR20 when I have ReplayTV's I've already paid the lifetime fee for. I can't un-pay for them, so any decision to go to the HR20 has to take into account the fact that I already have DVRs with free (paid for) service.

On another note, I was curious about the Dish Network side of things, so I looked into the Dish DVRs, particularly the 722 model. It seems like a nice unit, with real 30 second skip and so forth. Reviews on the DBStalk forums seem pretty positive.

I'd lose some HD channels going from DirecTV to Dish, and most of all the NFL package, but that might be something I could possibly live with. I know DirecTV has a much larger HD rollout plan than does Dish, but I don't know if any of the channels they have exclusively matter to me. If they don't, I think I'd seriously consider Dish for the DVR alone.

Also, it appears Dish only charges you an extra DVR fee when your # of DVRs is greater than 2. I'd only need 2, so it'd be a flat $5.99 fee.

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 06/11/2007 21:42

Quote:
I have used a ReplayTV 2000-series more extensively and the UI between that and the 5000-series seemed very similar to me. My opinion of it that it's pretty awful compared to a TiVo. I'm sure it's something that you can get used to, but I never caught on. The HR20 really wins on UI even against TiVo. The ability to have the current program running in a small window inside the guide or menu system is great. When using a TiVo now, it seems odd to me that the video and audio cut out completely when entering the menus.

I personally perfer the TiVo method as it allows me to hit the TiVo button and Turn on my TV and not hear or see anything about the current show recording. This is very important when recording sports because I don't watch LIVE TV since I can't stand waiting thru commercials.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 00:12

Quote:
I think you increased it from $13 to $16 in just one post

I actually didn't realize the fee for Tivo service increased from $13 per month until I was looking up the cost of a Series 3.

Quote:
Actually, I just remembered something. When I was looking at which company I'd end up going with, I'm pretty sure that Verizon's service ended up being a little less expensive than DirecTV's, so I ended up even despite the Tivo service fee. Don't forget to factor that into the price comparison...

I'm not doubting you, but this has a lot to do with service packages. I happen to think that DirecTV Premier is underpriced when compared with other services. $99 gets you all premium movie channels and the sports pack. The same package on Dish, for example, is around $130 last time I checked.

I will say that if I were to dump DirecTV, FiOS would be my next choice. Of course, I would buy a Series 3 (or two) in that situation. Too bad there is little chance of FiOS ever coming to my hood.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 00:25

Quote:
Is that the only UI "improvement" you see? Because I find that marginally nice at best, and annoying at worst. It does minimize the UI space on the screen as you only have ¾ of the screen left available. (The video takes up the upper-right quadrant.) If given a choice, I would probably prefer the TiVo way.

It's just something I find nicer than Tivo. I didn't think about it until having to go from HR20 to Tivo. It seems strange that you have to browse the Tivo's menu system in silence.

The video portion takes up less than ¼ of the screen:

Quote:
Does the HR20 do clipping or only full cancellation? TiVo added clipping at some point.

No clipping, it will fail the record the entire show. There is also no negative padding, but I think UltimateTV was the only DVR to ever have this feature.

Another nice thing about the HR20 over Tivo is that padded programs that overlap on the same channel won't cause a conflict. It will simply record both programs (using only one tuner) during the overlapping period. I don't know if Tivos do this now, but DirecTivos don't.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 00:53

Okay, looking into the HD channels offered by Dish and DirecTV as of right now, I'm really leaning towards switching to Dish so I can get the 622 or 722 DVR. By doing so, I think these are the non-premium HDTV channels that I'd lose by going to Dish ($ means the channels are in DirecTV's "HD Extra" tier that you have to pay $5 extra for):

Bravo
Cartoon Network
CNBC
CNN
Fox Business Network
Fuel
FX
MGM ($)
Sci-Fi
Smithsonian ($)
Speed
The Weather Channel
USA

Of these, the only ones I'd be a bit bummed about losing would be Cartoon Network and Sci-Fi. I don't know anything about the Smithsonian channel but maybe there's some good content there as well. Otherwise, I couldn't give a damn if Dish never gets these channels in HD. There are some new HD channels that DirecTV is getting, but none of them excite me much, either.

So, if I'm willing to give up on the NFL package, Dish may end up being a better deal for me. The Dish 622/722 PVR comes out looking much better from this chart, with Picture-in-Picture being the real deal-maker along with the real 30-second skip. According to that chart, the Dish HD-DVRs also have VOD capability, for what it's worth.

Guess I'll call Dish tomorrow and see what kind of deal I can get from them. Does anyone have the Dish 622/722 box and care to chime in?

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 11:21

I'm just totally, like, not there when it comes to this end of the discussion.

I mean, how much television does one really need, when there's so much more to do in life?

For me, it's not worth $110/monthly to become even more of a couch potato than hacking computers does to me.

And I'm not TV deprived, either. Rabbit ears would get me 10-12 local channels here, some of them in HD, with no monthly fee. I actually do have better antennas than rabbit ears, for the sake of a couple more distant channels.

But even this little amount of TV is still way too much for my own good.

Nothing against any of you guys, but really!?

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 13:09

If you've been a DirecTV customer for a while you can probably get them to give you the HR20 for nearly free. Call up and ask for customer retention. You don't have to be coy. Tell them you want an HD DVR and are thinking of switching to cable if they don't make you a better offer. Usually they'll give it to you. Sometimes you have to call back and get a different CSR. It's a silly game but it works.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 16:04

Quote:
I'm not TV deprived, either. Rabbit ears would get me 10-12 local channels here, some of them in HD, with no monthly fee.

At my house, I can get basically 2½ channels with an antenna. I suppose if you count the digital sub-channels, it comes to more than that, but most of those are either 480i/p duplications of the main 720p/1080i program, weather reports, or other crap. The only local station that does have a plethora of different programming won't come in over an antenna for me. And I live in the city limits of the city these stations are broadcast from.

Does satellite/cable TV cost too much? Absolutely. But assuming I want to watch it, there's not much I can do about that.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 07/11/2007 16:52

Quote:
The video portion takes up less than ¼ of the screen

Hm. Weird how memory works.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 14:27

As it turns out, Dish Network is a much better deal for me, so I've canceled my DirecTV and will be going with Dish. Everything I've read leads me to believe that even with the newer software releases, the Dish 622/722 are superior to the HR20, and with Dish offering me the 722 for free and DirecTV only offering to knock $100 off the HR20 (making it cost me $199) it's really a no-brainer. Plus, Dish's monthly costs end up being less among comparable packages.

The DirecTV CSR threw every discount/deal she had available at me when I called to cancel, but in the end, Dish is beating them handily with their new customer offer. I thought there was a chance DirecTV would match it (I'd have stuck with them if they'd waived the $99 HD upgrade fee and the initial HD-DVR lease fee) but I guess with all the hype about their HD channels, they figure they're worth the cost. For some, they probably are, but when you factor in the quality of the HD-DVRs, I think Dish will come out ahead.

We'll see how I feel about this once I actually get the service installed, though...

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 17:49

I looked at dish too. They told be that they would only allow me to have one of the 722's. That If I wanted another I would have to buy it outright at a cost of +700 US. That was the deal killer for me.

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 18:12

Quote:
Everything I've read leads me to believe that even with the newer software releases, the Dish 622/722 are superior to the HR20,

Interesting... I came to the opposite conclusion when I looked into it. I don't remember anymore where I was getting information. What were you looking at that led you to choose Dish?

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 18:30

Neutrino: Yes, only one 722. It supports two rooms though, so that's good enough for my use. I don't need two separate 722 units in my house, just one 722 split to two rooms and a normal Dish receiver (no DVR necessary) for a third room upstairs.

Dylan: I spent a lot of time fishing through the threads on DBStalk for peoples' opinions, but the most objective side-by-side comparison I found is here:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95242&highlight=vip722+vs+hr20
Look at the PDF file in that thread for a comparison of the various features. There are some where HR20 comes out ahead but the heavy hitters for me seem to all favor Dish. There are, of course, going to be subjective qualities that don't come out until I've actually used them myself, but based on the checklist of features available, I gotta go with the 722.

Dish's service also comes out about $10 cheaper for my particular needs. Coupled with the $199 for HR20 vs $0 for 722 fees, it was pretty much a no-brainer. And, my folks have Dish Network, so I can save them $50 with the referral program. Everybody wins.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 18:48

Thanks for the pdf, that is a good tool. One of the other things I see that I had known but forgotten about was that the second TV used with the 722 will only recieve 480i. That was the other thing and the reason I wanted two of them.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 08/11/2007 20:50

Yeah, I will only need HD on one of the outputs, so that's not a concern for me. If I needed two HD DVRs, I think DirecTV may be a better option.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 10/11/2007 04:27

Question: if I don't want to use the "PC" port on my TV, shouldn't a regular DVI to HDMI cable do the trick? I might have some overscan, but it should work, right?

Currently I'm not able to do this. I have the PC hooked up, but the TV isn't detecting an input at all, let alone a bad looking one. I connected it back to the VGA port, and I can see the screen but it displays with a thick black border on all sides.

Just to be sure, I've set it to 1920x1080, and the refresh rate is at 60Hz. That's all I should have to do, right? Any ideas why it isn't working at all?

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 10/11/2007 13:20

Probably the specific timings are off, making it look unlike a TV signal. Someone makes a utility for Macs to send out the exact right signal. I wouldn't be surprised if there was such a utility for Windows, too. Check in your video drivers for an HDTV setting.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 10/11/2007 20:20

Quote:
Probably the specific timings are off, making it look unlike a TV signal. Someone makes a utility for Macs to send out the exact right signal. I wouldn't be surprised if there was such a utility for Windows, too. Check in your video drivers for an HDTV setting.

Thanks. In checking my driver settings, I noticed that I had just gone with the Microsoft display adapter for my video card. I updated it, and it started working. Not sure why.

Does anyone know of any way around the overscan problem? I'm missing essentially the whole task bar and the first column of icons. I wouldn't mind, but when I open the Media Center application, I'm missing some important navigational buttons on the top and bottom of the screen as well.

Is this how it is for most Media Center PCs? How is this addressed for PCs designed for this purpose?

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 10/11/2007 21:50

Quote:
Does anyone know of any way around the overscan problem? I'm missing essentially the whole task bar and the first column of icons. I wouldn't mind, but when I open the Media Center application, I'm missing some important navigational buttons on the top and bottom of the screen as well.

Is this how it is for most Media Center PCs? How is this addressed for PCs designed for this purpose?

I feed my (Viewsonic) HDTV using DVI-D -> HDMI, and what my PC sends is exactly what gets displayed. No "overscan" on the digital signal.

Maybe it varies by brand of HDTV ?

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 10/11/2007 23:14

Do you have an Nvidia or ATI video card? The latest drivers for each have overscan correction. If not you can use Powerstrip to make a custom resolution. Look on AVSforum as someone may have posted the best setting to use.

Posted by: spider

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 00:30

I just got a 46" samsung lcd LNT4661f for $1499 and am quite happy with it. I would have liked to go a bit bigger in size but the larger models had a glossy screen that I knew would drive me nuts. I went with the samsung as it delivers 1080p over vga which was big for me as my xbox 360 does not have hdmi.

I have a the following hooked up to it:
-xbox original modded xbmc via component
-xbox 360 w/hddvd drive and 2 TB usb/ethernet NAS via VGA
-ps3 60gig hooked up via hdmi
-Sony DVP-CX985V 400 Disc Progressive DVD / SACD Player via hdmi
-sonicview 8000hd fta satellite receiver w/500 gig ext. (dish/bell) via hdmi

I am very happy with this setup. I have about 200 hddvd/bluray wmvhd rips on the 2TB drive, most are 720p and some are 1080p and look phenomenal over the 360. I have the last 3 years of popular tv sitcoms/dramas in xvid on the original xbox. The sonicview 8000hd reciever, its a pretty good fta pvr for the money actually, over 100+ HD channels (720p/1080i) which is awesome.

I have a 10.2 setup that is actually quite insane, i'd like to go 15.3 but the neighbors would prolly burn my house down.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 01:39

Matt, I don't know what kind of TV you have and I was too lazy to go back through the thread to find out but this will probably apply anyway. When I first bought the Sony Wega III I too wanted to set it up with a computer via DVI. This was about three years ago. I was able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping but only after a lot of research and work. The final solution was to use Powerstrip to provide the TV with the proper resolution and timings AND go into the service menu of the TV and adjust several hidden parameters to eliminate the overscan. Once this was all completed the system work swimmingly. There have been huge advancements in graphics drivers since then and you may not have to use powerstrip but you might try it anyway. It has some great features that seem to work well for these types of applications.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 03:49

Quote:
Matt, I don't know what kind of TV you have and I was too lazy to go back through the thread to find out but this will probably apply anyway. When I first bought the Sony Wega III I too wanted to set it up with a computer via DVI. This was about three years ago. I was able to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping but only after a lot of research and work. The final solution was to use Powerstrip to provide the TV with the proper resolution and timings AND go into the service menu of the TV and adjust several hidden parameters to eliminate the overscan. Once this was all completed the system work swimmingly. There have been huge advancements in graphics drivers since then and you may not have to use powerstrip but you might try it anyway. It has some great features that seem to work well for these types of applications.

Thanks, guys. I'll give Powerstrip a try. The updated Microsoft drivers got me a picture, but I downloaded the ATI drivers and Catalyst to see if I could help things any. They didn't.

The thing I don't understand is: why would this happen at all? If anything, the output of the PC should be more certain than any other device I plug into the TV. I have it set to the exact native resolution of the TV, and it's a digital signal, so why on earth would there be anything other than a 1:1 mapping?

There's also a bit of a weird look to stuff on the screen, like the mouse has an odd, light, 1-pixel border around it.

*edit*
Oh, and I was at least able to get a satisfactory result by changing the resolution to something like 1776x1008, but this just makes me wonder that question more...

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 04:19

Quote:
The thing I don't understand is: why would this happen at all? If anything, the output of the PC should be more certain than any other device I plug into the TV. I have it set to the exact native resolution of the TV, and it's a digital signal, so why on earth would there be anything other than a 1:1 mapping?

There's also a bit of a weird look to stuff on the screen, like the mouse has an odd, light, 1-pixel border around it.

*edit*
Oh, and I was at least able to get a satisfactory result by changing the resolution to something like 1776x1008, but this just makes me wonder that question more...

What make / model TV do you have? Read the threads about your TV on AVSForum as someone may have posted the service codes to adjust the overscan.

This wiki about overscan should help explain it.

Anandtech also has info about the overscan correction.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 04:47

I have a Sony KDS-R60XBR2. I'll do a little reading

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 17:37

Here’s a quote from Cnet Editors review of this TV:

“PC performance: We also tested the Sony's VGA input and the results were disappointing. We set our PC to 1,920x1,080 and unlike the 60A2000 we reviewed, the R60XBR2 did display an image--but it was far from ideal. We could find no way to get the image to fill the screen completely; there was a black border about 8-inches wide on all sides, which is unacceptable. We were able to reduce interference by playing with the pitch and phase controls, but never completely eliminate it.

The Sony fared much better as a PC monitor when connected via HDMI. It filled the screen and resolved every line of a 1,920x1,080 source, according to DisplayMate, and text was relatively crisp. The image was overscanned significantly, however, so the task bar at the bottom of our Windows XP desktop, for example, was completely obscured along with one column of icons on the right side. According to DisplayMate, overscan measured 3 percent on the top and bottom and 2.5 percent on the sides--and we couldn't do anything with the Sony's controls to improve that. Of course, depending on the drivers in your video card, you should be able to correct the overscan at the expense of re-scaling the image.”

http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/sony-kds-r60xbr2/4505-6484_7-31901228.html

One of the reasons for the overscan is that this is a RP set. Because this set displays an image that is reflected off of a mirror Sony, and all manufacturers that make this kind of set, design them with overscan. This give them some leeway when it comes to the final mechanical calibration of the set. You can imagine how difficult it would be to build these sets with zero overscan and perfect alignment. In other words, the light engine is producing an image that is 1920X1080 but a portion of this image is outside of the viewing area of your screen.

As this is a Sony RP set I would be very surprised of you could not find the solution to the overscan issue. You may be able to display an acceptable picture by just using Powerstrip and using a non-standard resolution.

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 19:37

MMmm... sounds like more good reasons to never purchase Sony products new.

Cheers

Posted by: andym

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 19:40

Quote:
MMmm... sounds like more good reasons to never purchase Sony products new.

More like a good reason never to buy an RP set.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 20:24

For most people having 3% of overscan will never be noticed. I would guess that the percentage of buyers that understand 1:1 pixel mapping is relatively small. I own a Sony RP LCD TV and it has worked well since I bought it in November of 2003. Of course it's a 42" set and I paid more for it then you would this 60" now AND mine is not the top of the line! Again, with a little research and work I'm confident the pixel mapping can be resolved. Think of it like this, you will be seriously jazzed when you get it figured out!

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 22:55

Quote:
One of the reasons for the overscan is that this is a RP set. Because this set displays an image that is reflected off of a mirror Sony, and all manufacturers that make this kind of set, design them with overscan. This give them some leeway when it comes to the final mechanical calibration of the set. You can imagine how difficult it would be to build these sets with zero overscan and perfect alignment. In other words, the light engine is producing an image that is 1920X1080 but a portion of this image is outside of the viewing area of your screen.

As this is a Sony RP set I would be very surprised of you could not find the solution to the overscan issue. You may be able to display an acceptable picture by just using Powerstrip and using a non-standard resolution.

I guess I'm mostly surprised that there's so much overscan. I'd seen the CNet review, but I wasn't shocked until I saw it myself. For example, almost the entire task bar is gone, and this is mirrored on the top edge of the screen. That means it's overscanning by about 50 to 60 pixels.

I'm sure I'll be able to make it look okay by using a non-standard resolution, but that means all content will be converted, even 1080 content, which I should be getting full resolution for.

I'll keep looking in the Sony menus for an option to adjust the display...

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: HDTV Advice - 11/11/2007 23:39

I'm sure that when you're watching TV, it's also losing the same number of pixels to overscan.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 12/11/2007 02:13

Not sure what you want to do with the PC but on the Sony I have the changes that I made in the service menus effected only the DVI input that I was using. Every input on the set had their own set of variables. It might be the same for your set. If this is the case and your are using seperate inputs for the PC and other HDMI devices than the changes you make for the PC would only effect it.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 12/11/2007 03:29

Quote:
I'm sure that when you're watching TV, it's also losing the same number of pixels to overscan.

It's possible, but I don't think I am. That's a large amount of information, and I definitely seem to be getting everything. If I'm getting overscan on regular TV, then people with plasmas who watch football on Fox must get really pissed off at the horizontal bar that's a third of the way down their screen

Quote:
on the Sony I have the changes that I made in the service menus

I keep hearing about these "service menus" on various sites. Is there some other menu other than the one I can see? I haven't seen anything...

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 12/11/2007 05:01

Absolutely Matt, there is a service menu that is not generally available to the end user unless you know the special series of key strokes that are required to make it accessible. This is where all of the factory setup parameters are stored. There are a large number of variables here that control all sorts of things within your set. I don’t remember what the keystrokes are that will get you in there but if you go to the www.avsforum.com web site I think you’ll find everything you need. One of the pioneers of figuring this out on the Sony RP LCD was a guy known as UMR. If you go there and search for posts by him it will probably get you started in the right direction. Just make sure you have read enough to understand what you are doing before you get started as there are variables in here that if not set correctly can cause you much grief.

Just did a little searching in the AVS forum. It may be that UMR's work predates your set. I did find this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater
??? Are you sure about this? This topic has been discussed extensively in this forum and the answer has always been that it's an issue with the optics and there is absolutely no way to fix the amount of overscan we're talking about within the service menu. I could be remembering wrong, but I thought reputable calibrators like UMR agreed that it wasn't fixable.

Can you point us at the service menu setting that will allow us to fix overscan? And does it work on a single input? In other words, if I fix the overscan on my computer input, will it cause underscan on my other inputs.
OK, this is what I have learned so far by reading hundreds of pages and spending many hours in the service menu of my 60XBR2. There seems to be at least 2 kinds of overscan. The first is physical. There are some pixels being hidden behind the bezel (the frame around the image). Some say 2 to 3%. Unless you rip it off or change the housing there is nothing you can do about it. If that is the overscan you are talking about then, no there is not much you can do about it. However...

The theory which is mine and subject to change as I learn more or others prove me wrong ... All signals that appear on the screen of an XBR2 pass through the scaler. This makes perfect 1:1 pixel mapping extremely hard and nearly impossible to achieve. There, I said it. Now, there is a place in the service menu where you can change the horizontal and vertical scale factor. It is know as HOVERSCN and VOVERSCAN.

WEM SERVICE

070
000 HOVERSCAN
001 VOVERSCAN

Warning: The SM is a dangerous place. Be careful what you change and please write down original values before changing.

These two parameters are on a per resolution bases. Meaning that when you change them while viewing a 1080i signal, any and all inputs using a 1080i signal will also change. This is valid for all inputs except the VGA input. I can't seem to activate the SM in the VGA input. Maybe someone knows how to do that.
__________________
-Tony "

I found it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=730418&highlight=service+menu&page=225

Posted by: andy

Re: HDTV Advice - 12/11/2007 06:44

Quote:

Warning: The SM is a dangerous place. Be careful what you change and please write down original values before changing.

I think that deserves to be repeated, in bold. You really can make a mess in TV service menus and it can be very hard to undo if you haven't correctly noted down all the original values. In the case of my Toshiba there isn't any "reset to how it shipped" option either...

The first time I used the SM on my Toshiba I clearly wrote down a wrong value somewhere. It took me weeks of fiddling to get it back to a decent state.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 12/11/2007 19:36

That makes sense to me and you're welcome!

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 03:32

Sorry to submit this article to the discussion so late, but I'm just now getting caught up on the 783 Engadget posts I've missed.

Anyway, as a FIOS customer, I was extremely happy to hear about their plans to upgrade to 150 HD channels.

The link to the article about their current limitations is interesting as well. I had wondered what kind of limitations the technology had. It sounds like they're fixing them, though.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 19:36

Well, I close on the house tomorrow (yay!) and once I'm moved in, I'll be going to local stores to take a look at some TVs. Based purely on reviews, owner experiences, specs, and price, the Sony KDS-60A3000 is the leader right now. I've basically ruled out flat panels because 50" isn't enough for the room, and 60" flat panel LCDs and plasmas are out of my reach price-wise, leaving rear-projection as the only option. My initial instinct among the RPs was the Samsung LED-based DLP models, but scouring the forums, people are having a lot of first-gen type problems with them, more so than other Samsung models with bulbs. I'll definitely take a look at the Samsung DLP sets in person before making my decision, though.

Getting a new TV means it's also time to upgrade my home theater system. Probably going with an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver with the Onkyo SKS-HT540 7.1 speaker package. I'll try to give this combo an in-store listen if possible because it gets excellent ratings for movie quality, but average ratings for music. If I don't like the sound, I guess I'll buy speakers piecemeal.

I've also decided I'm not going to take the plunge on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player until the format war/pissing contest is over. I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari, but the few dual-format players that do exist are way too expensive, and I don't want to take a gamble on one format or another and get burned if I end up on the wrong side of the conflict.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 20:03

Quote:
I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari

I don't think so. I think regular DVDs look fantastic on big screens, and the difference between progressive and interlaced is negligible as long as the TV does halfway decent deinterlacing.

Provided, of course, that they are:
- Anamorphic widescreen movies
- Connected with component cables.

Given the above, I'm quite happy to wait out the HD-DVD format war.

Posted by: visuvius

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 20:25

I've got the next model up, the TXSR674 and I've been very happy with it. It was my first real home audio receiver but I had no real problems setting it up. I don't very much about the unit you're getting but the 674 has two HDMI in ports and an HDMI out which has been pretty useful to me. I'd make sure the 605 has some sort of HDMI support. Speaker wise, I went with an Infinity 5.1 channel system. Its pretty much the perfect size for my room (~12x15) and with a good Dobly or DTS source, it sounds amazing.

Posted by: mlord

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 20:32

Quote:
I've also decided I'm not going to take the plunge on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player until the format war/pissing contest is over. I realize that feeding my 5 year old DVD player without progressive scan into this system is going to be like putting a Yugo engine in a Ferrari,

A note about DVD players: I have a nice $25 one here that says "progressive scan" on the front. The output of this model is only 480p, which is noticeably jagged on my 37" 1366x768 LCD television.

The exact same discs look much smoother (like, perfect!) when played from my MythTV box to that exact same screen, probably because of the 720p+ output from the Myth box.

So a DVD player with 720p output should do a similar job, and produce a MUCH better image (noticeably better) than an older 480p one, even without jumping into the roulette game of HD DVD standards.

Cheers

Posted by: tfabris

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 20:53

Insert discussion about why some DVD players bearing the name "Progressive Scan" look like crap here. (Scroll down to near the bottom to see specific known bugs in some deinterlacers).

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 21:21

Quote:
I'd make sure the 605 has some sort of HDMI support.

Agreed! It looks like the 605 does have HDMI inputs, and even conversion to HDMI! Good choice! The next receiver I get will have conversion to HDMI, so I can just leave my TV on one input out of convenience.

I'm currently not happy at all with my Sony receiver. They seem to be the last company to tie digital audio ports to specific components. For example: I have an optical and coax input that are both tied to the DVD player, so when I'm using one, the other is useless. The end result is that I have limited inputs for newer components. Most other decent receivers I've seen will let you assign your digital audio inputs, as well as your component and HDMI inputs. Not Sony, though. Not on any of their products, no matter how expensive.

Anyway, I like that TV. I think you made the right choice on rear projection. For the size/price ratio, it can't be beat. Besides, if you don't plan on having the home theater components hidden away, you'll probably be putting them in a stand that will take up the amount of depth of an RPTV. At least that's how I justified it

Posted by: Waterman981

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 21:22

The SR605 is actually the lowest cost HDMI 1.3 receiver I've seen available.. (I've seen it for under $500 in B&M stores) So when he does make the move to HD DVD or BluRay he will be able to pass Dobly TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio directly over the HDMI, rather than using the analog 5.1 outputs from his disc player.
Edit as I was a little slow: Yeah, the SR605 will upconvert from other sources to the HDMI output, but it will downconvert 1080i signals over component to 720p when output over HDMI. Check the CNET review for more.

I picked up a Toshiba HD-A30 HD DVD player at the beginning of October, and love it. Looking back I kinda wished I just went for an A2, but I'm satisfied. Unfortunately the 2 lowest models of Toshiba HD DVD players don't have analog 5.1 outputs, so the only way to get Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio is over HDMI, which requires a HDMI 1.3 receiver.

If you do have a HTPC you could always get a combo drive ($299 @ newegg, but out of stock), but I hear the software is still young for Windows (especially with integrating it into a Media Center app). I haven't looked into getting it running under Linux.

Posted by: Waterman981

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 22:50

Quote:
I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.

Ya wrote this a while ago, but just to give you an idea, my room is 12.5' wide, 24.5' in length. Here is a panorama of the setup I'm running. Like I mentioned before I got the Samsung 61" LED DLP (I'm curious as to what problems you've heard. I've only had mine since the end of September and have had no problems). The TV is 21" from the wall, but with the stand it looks fine. My couch is about 11' from the screen, which gives me just a tiny bit of darkness at the top. I really only notice it on full screen pictures with a white backdrop. I think my couch just sits a little low though, if my head is about 3" higher the picture is perfect.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 15/11/2007 23:08

Quote:
I'll have a better idea about my target screen size once I move into the new place, but the room is 24x12, so I'm thinking 50" might not be quite enough. In that case, plasmas are pretty much out of the question.

My main room is 14'7''x19'10'', and 60" is definitely my minimum, especially given the high ceilings in my place. Which orientation will your setup be in? Mine is the opposite of Waterman's. I have the couch and TV against the long walls, so the TV is probably about 10'-12' from my eyes.

Posted by: Neutrino

Re: HDTV Advice - 16/11/2007 04:01

It's really long but it may change your view on the need of HDMI 1.3 to enjoy lossless audio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

It's been a while since I looked at this thread. I just took a quick look at it and it appears it has devolved into a shouting match but there is still a lot of good info here. While I own a 1.3 compliant receiver none of the players I own pass lossless audio via bitstream. They all do the decoding internally passing it via multi channel PCM hence I do not use or need the decoders within the receiver to enjoy lossless audio. YMMV

Posted by: Dylan

Re: HDTV Advice - 16/11/2007 13:22

Quote:
The next receiver I get will have conversion to HDMI, so I can just leave my TV on one input out of convenience.

A friend of mine warned me that this feature may not be so great in practice. He says the level differences between HDMI outputs on different devices mean he can't use the switching unless he wants to change his TV settings each time.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: HDTV Advice - 16/11/2007 14:54

Quote:
Here is a panorama of the setup I'm running.

Hee! Serenity!

Posted by: Waterman981

Re: HDTV Advice - 16/11/2007 15:25

Quote:
Quote:
Here is a panorama of the setup I'm running.

Hee! Serenity!

I had to put one of my HD DVD's in to take the picture... simple choice after that!

Posted by: Waterman981

Re: HDTV Advice - 16/11/2007 15:31

Quote:
It's really long but it may change your view on the need of HDMI 1.3 to enjoy lossless audio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

Wow, I just skimmed the first post quickly, but I'll definitely have to take a closer read. AVSForum is so huge I usually avoid it unless I have a specific problem I'm trying to fix. My current receiver doesn't have HDMI (or analog 5.1 inputs) at all right now so I might as well get one that is 1.3 while I'm replacing it.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 21/11/2007 14:19

Thanks for all the advice, folks. As expected, I closed on my house on Friday, and moved in this weekend (where "moved in" means "everything I own is in the garage.") I was going to hold off on buying a TV until after Black Friday to see if there were any deals, but having scanned the Black Friday circulars from the major electronics retailers, I didn't see any that jumped out at me. There are going to be a couple of Aquos deals (I think a 46" Aquos is going to be $999 at Sears) but the pickins among larger sets look pretty slim unless there are "secret sales."

With this in mind, I scanned the deal forums today and lo and behold, there's a great deal on the KDS-60A3000 at Fry's/Outpost:

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/5384018?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

$1599 plus shipping (around $90) from a reputable seller seemed like a great deal to me, so I pulled the trigger. I've seen the set in person at Circuit City, and thought it wasn't a great environment, I did find the picture to be very crisp. If it's anything close to or better than my Dad's 60" Sony (I think it's a KDS-60XBR2) I'll be thrilled to get it at this price.

Now I just gotta order a nice stand for it. Anyone have any stands they recommend for a 60"ish projection TV? The BellO stands seem popular and look pretty nice, but they're a bit pricey.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 21/11/2007 14:34

Quote:

Like I mentioned before I got the Samsung 61" LED DLP (I'm curious as to what problems you've heard. I've only had mine since the end of September and have had no problems).

A lot of AVSForum Samsung DLP owners (not just the LED models) have complained about geometry problems, a "halo effect", and various odd popping noises coming from the set. One comment I read said "if you get a good one, it's a great set." Many folks have sent two or three back to Samsung until they finally got one without issues. I know this can happen on any TV, and I know forum posts often overstate the bad and understate the good, but the ratio of unsatisfied Samsung DLP owners just seems higher to me.

Quote:

The TV is 21" from the wall, but with the stand it looks fine. My couch is about 11' from the screen, which gives me just a tiny bit of darkness at the top. I really only notice it on full screen pictures with a white backdrop. I think my couch just sits a little low though, if my head is about 3" higher the picture is perfect.

Yeah, the good news for me is that putting my TV along the 24' wall (making the viewing distance around 11') makes sense with the way my room is setup. It'll be right between the two windows, and there's a good spot to put a couch directly parallel with the TV. I'll post some pictures once my moving in activities die down a bit, but I definitely think it would have been foolish to go under 60" for this room.

Posted by: Attack

Re: HDTV Advice - 21/11/2007 14:51

Quote:
Now I just gotta order a nice stand for it. Anyone have any stands they recommend for a 60"ish projection TV? The BellO stands seem popular and look pretty nice, but they're a bit pricey.

The Z-line at Circuit City is nice.
http://www.racksandstands.com/ also has some nice stuff but more expensive.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: HDTV Advice - 23/11/2007 05:27

Wednesday was a *crazy* day for my Amex card. Bought the TV, a stand, a receiver, speakers, a DVD player, and a Slingbox Solo. Oh yeah, and a refrigerator from Home Depot, since all I have in the house right now is a mini-fridge. I think the sudden flurry of activity tripped Amex's suspicious activity monitoring, because Home Depot had to call into Amex at Home Depot to authorize the transaction for the fridge.

For the stand, I ended up going with this stand from Best Buy. The width is almost exactly that of the 60" Sony TV, and I like the simple but modern glossy black look. It was on a one-day sale at Best Buy for $199.

Instead of buying the Onkyo TX-SR605 and separate speakers as I had planned, I went with the HT-SP908 "Home Theater in a Box" package. It has the TX-SR605, a solid set of speakers (model # SKS-HT750) an up-converting DVD player, and an iPod dock just for good measure. I hadn't actually planned on buying a DVD player, but since mine is old and doesn't do any up-conversion, it's definitely a nice-to-have. Total cost for the package was $820 shipped, which I think ended up being cheaper than if I had to find all those components (or comparable ones) and have them shipped from multiple stores.

Finally, picked up a Slingbox Solo from buy.com for $132.99 - 5% coupon, since there will be times I want my TV on the road.

Posted by: robricc

Re: HDTV Advice - 27/12/2007 01:48

I just want to update the status of the HR20-700. In the current beta (which should roll out to all receivers soon), there have been 2 major developments.

30-second skip is now available via secret code. Set it once, and your preference will survive a reboot. 30-second slip is still the default.

Video streaming is now available. This is not multi-room viewing (DVR to DVR), but streaming of files stored on your PC. The HR20 will only play back MPEG2 with MPEG stereo at this time, but I am watching AVIs of The X-Files right now that are being transcoded on the fly by TVersity. The HR20 shows 4:3 content pilar-boxed and 16:9 content fills the screen. It's all pretty lovely.

The UI has been polished for this release as well.

Posted by: Dignan

Re: HDTV Advice - 28/12/2007 15:43

Rob, do you know if TVersity can trasncode MKV files? I have a bunch that I wanted to give to my dad (he didn't watch Journeyman and I think he'd like it). The problem is that I can't find any way to get it onto his home theater. He has an AppleTV, but any time I try to convert one of the files, the audio slowly gets out of sync with the video as the episode progresses. Someone on the VideoHelp forums said it was due to the video having a variable frame rate. Perhaps transcoding on the fly would actually do better, but I don't know if TVersity has that much power...

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