Wireless ADSL router recommendations?
Posted by: Roger
Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 15:26
My ZyXEL wireless router (a P-600-HW-T1) is on the fritz. Up until now, it would drop my DSL connection maybe once or twice a month. Unfortunately, I've now found a completely reliable way to make it drop the connection: attempt to connect to a Team Fortress 2 game
Actually, thinking about it, it could be due to the fact that I'm trying to connect to TF2 while the wife's using the wireless (WPA-2, full-blown RADIUS auth against a W2K3 server) from downstairs. Even so, it shouldn't barf.
I bought a ZyXEL because it was cheap and because my old non-wireless ZyXEL router (which came with the DSL contract) was rock solid.
I
think it's running the latest available firmware, which is worth a rant in itself.
Frankly, although I've only had it for a few months, it's not worth the time and cost involved in sending it back, so I figure I'll just replace it with something that works.
So, any suggestions? It must be a UK-compatible ADSL modem. I want wireless (one of my laptops does 802.11a/b/g/draft-N, the other does 802.11b/g, everything else in the house is wired). I'd prefer something stronger than WEP.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 15:43
Oh, and it'd be nice if it was easy to configure port-forwarding. I think I've got this one set up correctly to forward SSH traffic, but it's not working, and the manual/help text aren't much use.
Posted by: BartDG
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 15:46
Draytek.
This model is a good option.
Seriously, Draytek has the best routers I've ever had the chance to install. They're not cheap, but they support just about any standard and are incredibly configurable. (even though the standard settings usually 'just work'). Also, on the Draytek.com site, you've got the chance to play with a live web demo of every available router's firmware. (eg.
here)
Edit: Port Forwarding is dead easy with Draytek routers. Have a look via the supplied link above and you'll see for yourself.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 17:22
I
assume that they're available in the UK, but I'd go with one you can install a replacement firmware on. I've had reasonably good luck with
Tomato, but, regardless, the fact that they run Linux and have CLI access means that you can do virtually anything you want with them.
Posted by: tman
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 18:16
Just buy a WiFi AP and plug it into your old non-wireless router. You'll have a much better selection.
Posted by: andym
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 18:30
On the recommendation of Cris I bought a Thomson Speedtouch 546 to replace my Netgear DG854G and can't recommend it enough. At its worst my Netgear was dropping carrier several times a day and usually needing a restart every week. The Thomson runs for months on end and I also gained a whole meg in downstream speed. The Netgear has been relegated to AP duties until I get a around to playing with 802.11n.
Posted by: AndrewT
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/04/2008 19:58
What about the Zyxel P-660HW? We install the P-66x Zyxels for most of our customers and they tend to be pretty bullet-proof. At a guess, we've installed about 40 Zyxels over the past 18 months and I don't recall a single failure.
The firewall and NAT configuration are pretty intuitive.
Here's a link to a German website that hosts some menu emulators (links across the top of the page).
Not sure exactly what wireless security protocols they include, certainly WPA and WPA-2.
Posted by: tman
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 00:37
I'd be surprised if anything that has been released in the last few years doesn't support at least some variant of WPA.
Probably not what you're looking for but I'm using a Cisco 1841 with an ADSL interface card and a 802.11a/b/g interface card. It works great and I've had absolutely no problems with it at all.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 04:21
On the recommendation of Cris I bought a Thomson Speedtouch 546 to replace my Netgear DG854G and can't recommend it enough. At its worst my Netgear was dropping carrier several times a day and usually needing a restart every week. The Thomson runs for months on end and I also gained a whole meg in downstream speed. The Netgear has been relegated to AP duties until I get a around to playing with 802.11n.
Ah you see 8 years in the ADSL delivery game have taught me a few things
The Thomson routers are bomb proof, I have 2 and the things just refuse to drop sync. You can get them cheap if you look around, they don't seem to have the wireless version at the moment but keep an eye out
here.Edit - Tell a lie, they have the 580 for
£14.99 !!! got to be worth a shot!
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 04:43
I've had reasonably good luck with
TomatoI don't want to use a separate DSL modem; does that support models with one built-in? The Linksys WRT boxes (e.g.) don't seem to have that built-in.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 11:42
On the recommendation of Cris I bought a Thomson Speedtouch 546 to replace my Netgear DG854G and can't recommend it enough.
Definitely the best choice for iffy-DSL connections. That's what we use over here, too. The 516 is similar, but without the built-in 4-port switch. And there are wireless versions of both models, as well (forgot the numbers).
cheers
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 12:59
I don't want to use a separate DSL modem
Ah. Around here, I don't even know if an end-user can get an actual DSL modem. Basically, the modem is CPE and the user has no insight into it. So, to answer your question: I have no idea.
Posted by: Schido
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 28/04/2008 13:18
Well, i do have a speedtouch (716) that does occasionally loose sync. But that's probably because the speed is just up to the limits of the copper, 12mbps at 3km.
www.fritzbox.com is supposed to be pretty good to, if you've got a use for the voip stuff.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 30/04/2008 20:03
Edit - Tell a lie, they have the 580 for
£14.99 !!! got to be worth a shot!
Turned up this morning. Easy to configure. We'll see how solid it is. But, hey, for under £20, delivered, I can't complain, even if it's useless. I spent more than that in the pub yesterday lunchtime...
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 13/10/2008 13:14
Dragging up an old thread...
Last week, our home DSL died for no apparent reason. After much waiting on hold with AT&T, they concluded that our DSL modem (a cheapo Motorola box they sent us ten months ago) had gone belly up. They then proceeded to be bureaucratically unable to send me a new one.
I ended up getting a
Netgear DGN2000. For $120, it's got 2.4GHz 802.11b/g/n with two external antennae, a four port 10/100 switch, all the usual Firewall/NAT support, and a built-in ADSL modem. So far as I could tell, nobody makes a box like this with a GigE switch, but I can always gang a GigE switch onto this, to speed up any ports where I might want the speed.
I like the idea of the integrated DSL modem for one big reason: I get useful log data from the low-level DSL handshaking process. That, along with all the high-level stuff, now shows up nicely in my syslog. Beforehand, my old router was speaking PPPoE to the DSL modem and all I'd be able to see was "connection dropped" with no information as to why. Hopefully, this time I'll be able to learn more if/when things get wonky.
(Does anybody else but me find it odd that most wireless routers out there now support 802.11n with theoretical speeds well north of 100Mb/s, yet GigE hasn't become a standard feature to actually let you get data in and out that fast?)
Posted by: sein
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 13/10/2008 17:38
Oh cool it does SNMP too, thats neat. Its one feature I wish my Netgear DG834G had.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 05/04/2009 14:34
Digging this old thread up again...
Last night, two of the ports on my Netgear went belly-up (packet drop rates from 30-50%), while the rest of the thing is working fine. (Much poking around before I could reach this diagnosis...)
Netgear claims a one year warranty, so in theory I could send this thing off to be fixed. Any idea if I've got a hope in hell of getting Netgear to properly service the thing? I've still got the original box. Receipt is long gone, but I bought it at Fry's and I've got the credit card statement.
Should I take it back to Fry's, mail it off to Netgear (and do what in the meanwhile?), or just punt and buy something new?
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 05/04/2009 15:22
(Does anybody else but me find it odd that most wireless routers out there now support 802.11n with theoretical speeds well north of 100Mb/s, yet GigE hasn't become a standard feature to actually let you get data in and out that fast?)
Not that strange, really. Because the people who do LOTS of internal file transfers are a very tiny percentage of the folks who purchase this type of thing.
So long as the wired/wireless ports are faster than the DSL connection, just about nobody ever gets any speed benefit from it over plain wireless-B.
Back to your current topic.. if you end up replacing the Netgear device, then go with a Speedtouch modem/router/ap,
and put some surge suppression on it this time! On both the phone line and on the power source.
Cheers
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 06/04/2009 00:17
Once I convinced them that I'd properly diagnosed the problem (quoting a packet loss rate went pretty far in this direction), they offered me three choices. I could ship them my router and wait for them to ship one back. Or, I could pay $16 and they'd ship me one right away and I'd toss the old one in the box and send it back. Or, I could pay $26 for them to do the same thing via overnight FedEx.
I opted for the $16 package and I'm making do with only two working ports for now. Luckily, 802.11n truly does have better range than my previous 802.11g box, so I can live with my secondary AP being off for a week.
Surge suppression: I've always kept the gear in my closet on a dedicated UPS, which proved particularly valuable when Hurricane Ike came through. Through the night, with the power down and us huddled in a hallway downstairs, I was checking the storm's progress from my iPhone. The UPS finally gave out mid-morning, but the storm was gone and life went on.
Regardless, the UPS does little to keep cheaply engineered consumer gear from wearing itself out. Somehow, I doubt these people hold themselves up to the engineering of something like the empeg.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 06/04/2009 00:24
Good stuff. We haven't lost anything here to surges since putting nearly everything onto UPSs ten years ago.
In your case, I was just noting the apparent high frequency of modem failures, and the fact that they connect to outside wires, and then put one and one together..
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 06/04/2009 06:09
We haven't lost anything here to surges since putting nearly everything onto UPSs ten years ago.
I lost two PC PSUs in the last couple of months, despite their being plugged into a UPS. I suspect bad batteries might have caused it. Plausible?
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 06/04/2009 12:12
Dubious. Even weak batteries probably have enough juice for an actively correcting UPS to protect things on mains.
I find that heat (bad ventilation), and fan bearings, are the only things that killed the PSUs I've seen.
But like I said, I've very little experience with things failing like that in recent times. The odd hard drive here and there -- all of them Deathstars or Seagates, and some USB gizmos, but not PSUs.
Mind you, I do use higher cost (and hopefully higher quality?) *quiet* PSUs in all of the boxes here. The last PSUs to fail for me were a pair of OEM no-name noisy little suckers.
Cheers
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 06/04/2009 13:48
Dubious. Even weak batteries probably have enough juice for an actively correcting UPS to protect things on mains.
APC SmartUPS, so they should have been OK. Quite an old unit; the current (replacement) batteries are about 4 years old. Almost time for a new set? I have a newer (but smaller) SmartUPS, which I'm using right now.
I find that heat (bad ventilation), and fan bearings, are the only things that killed the PSUs I've seen.
We have a real problem with dust. I don't know if it's unusual, but I do get quite large
dust bunnies (not quite the same size as in the link, but occasionally close) around the back of the computers.
Posted by: altman
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 07/04/2009 04:04
As Mark says, dubious. The thing about transients that might kill a PSU is that they're high energy and hard to generate - not something that a UPS inverter might be able to manage. The SmartUPS is an online UPS (as I remember) hence the load is always running from the inverter.
The most you'd see from weak batteries would be brownouts at high load, most likely.
Hugo
Posted by: andy
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/04/2009 09:57
On the recommendation of Cris I bought a Thomson Speedtouch 546 to replace my Netgear DG854G and can't recommend it enough. At its worst my Netgear was dropping carrier several times a day and usually needing a restart every week. The Thomson runs for months on end and I also gained a whole meg in downstream speed.
Just ordered a Speedtouch TG585n, based on the various Speedtouch recommendations here. It had better be good, or else !
It'll be replacing my Netgear DG834 modem/router and my Linksys WAP54G access point.
To be perfectly honest I've been very happy with my Netgear and I would happily have bought Netgear again. The only reason I am buying a new box is that the Linksys AP can't seem to cope with the fact that I have 7 wifi devices. It all worked fine until recently, but after adding another 5 wifi devices it has started randomly denying connection to them. To get back connected you have to disable/enable wifi on the client device. All very annoying.
I wouldn't rush to buy Linksys again, the Ethernet to wifi bridge works with very few things that I have plugged into it and now the AP has proved it isn't up to the job.
Posted by: BAKup
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/04/2009 11:54
I wouldn't rush to buy Linksys again, the Ethernet to wifi bridge works with very few things that I have plugged into it and now the AP has proved it isn't up to the job.
Try using DD-WRT firmware on the AP, it'll probably make it more stable, I've always had issues with the stock firmwares.
Posted by: andy
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/04/2009 12:52
I wouldn't rush to buy Linksys again, the Ethernet to wifi bridge works with very few things that I have plugged into it and now the AP has proved it isn't up to the job.
Try using DD-WRT firmware on the AP, it'll probably make it more stable, I've always had issues with the stock firmwares.
From memory, the version of the WAP54G that I have isn't supported by those third party kernels.
Edit:
Looks like it is now:
"WARNING - DD-WRT was not originally intended to be loaded on a WAP unit. It was found that it will run but it is a tricky unit to load and have function correctly. Below are a compilation of methods/instructions to assist you with creating a DD-WRT loaded WAP unit."
http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Installation#Linksys_WAP54GI have no desire to start messing around with that for just an access point.
Posted by: BAKup
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/04/2009 13:51
Well, after reading that, I'd understand you not wanting to risk bricking your AP. But I have had better luck with pretty much any other firmware than the stock Linksys firmware in their routers. So much so that I only buy routers that can easily be upgraded with better third party firmware.
Posted by: andy
Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 11:02
Just ordered a Speedtouch TG585n, based on the various Speedtouch recommendations here. It had better be good, or else !
Hmmm, not going too well so far.
The TG585n arrived has been plugged in. Connected to the ADSL line fine.
However now comes the joy of configuring it all (I have quite a bit to do as I have my own IP block, reserved DHCP addresses and lots of firewall rules to setup).
The first problem is that I see no way through the web interface of turning NAT off. The screen shots I have seen on the web show a much more detailed web interface than I am seeing on my router.
A quick check shows me that I am running firmware 7.4.3.2, whereas the latest appears to be 8.2.3.x
So I thought I'd just do a quick upgrade. But no, none of the Thompson official sites seem to have any new firmware (or even a copy of the upgrade tool).
I can see some non-official sites with firmwares available to download, but I hadn't really expected to get into hacking into my nice new router on day 1
Am I being dumb ? Does this router do non-NAT with my current firmware ? Are there official places to download newer firmware ?
Posted by: JBjorgen
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 11:08
The firmware probably needs to be provided by your ISP. Check with them.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 11:25
Nope. I bought this router retail.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 11:43
I've managed to find a recent firmware on some dodgy looking site. Still can't find the upgrade tool though (the router didn't come with a CD and the CD image I downloaded from somewhere didn't appear to have an upgrade tool anyway).
Given how dodgy the site looked I'm not entirely sure I want to install it anyway
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 12:21
I've managed to work out how to get it to turn off NAT. Part way through the setup routine there is a cryptic question, which when you chose one of the other options it allows you to set no-NAT and DHCP.
However that still leaves me with a very limited web interface. It can't even do things like reserve IP addresses for given MAC addresses.
I found the firmware upgrade tool in the end, but my effort to use it have failed so far. I figured out early on that it probably needs a static IP setup on the network interface before you start, but it appears to forget what my username/password is half way through. No matter how many times I enter the correct password (or the serial number just in case) it tells me they are incorrect.
I'm beginning to wish I had stuck with my perfectly good Netgear router and just got a new access point instead
Rant over, back to trying to work out why the upgrade tool doesn't work.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 13:50
After a lot more messing about I did manage to get the latest firmware installed, more by trial and error than by any other means, just kept doing seemingly the same thing until it worked.
That did enable a few more bits and pieces in the web UI, but I have to say compared to the other various routers I have used recently the UI is a bit of a disappointment. I have got used to being able to do everything I need via the web UI.
So back to the bad old days of configuring my router via the CLI
One example of something it won't let me do via the UI is assign a pre-existing IP address to a given MAC address via DHCP. It will let me fix an IP address once
it has handed it out, but I have a set of MAC/IP mappings already that I want to keep. It looks like I can do it via the CLI, with lease times set to 0 seconds, but every other recent router I have used allows this sort of thing via the web UI.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 14:52
Here's the best source for Speedtouch firmware:
http://www.speedtouchforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=1089And the upgrade tool:
http://mirror.opensourcehub.com/pub/speedtouch/utilities/UpgradeWiz/v4.4.2.1/Yeah, their web UI is not the best for advanced use, but has everything that "normal people" need. I don't use it at all here, of course -- just treating the device as a dumb bridge and using PPPoE on my firewall/server box instead.
Cheers
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 15:10
Ok, this thing is really starting to annoy me know. Twice I have setup my DHCP range, fixed leases and full set of firewall rules. TWICE they have all vanished into thin air. The first time they just vanished while the router was sat doing nothing, the second time they crashed when I powered it off to move it to its permanent home.
What exactly do I need to do to save changes permanently ??? I would expect changes in the web UI to be saved when I hit "save" and I have been using "saveall" on the CLI changes I have made. What other magic incantation do I need to "really" save ???
It'll be going back in the box soon
Can't remember the last time a bit of networking kit gave me this much hassle.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 24/04/2009 18:20
It has gone from bad to worse. I decided to make changes in small batches, save and reboot.
Made the first change, adding the DHCP pool, saved and rebooted. Now when it comes up I can't contact it, either via its "real" IP address or via its 192.168.1.254 address (with static addresses set on the laptop). I can't reach it via Ethernet or wifi (even though I get a link light for both).
From my experience so far I really couldn't recommend this to anyone who needs to actually make use of even the basic features beyond just a "standard" NAT setup.
I guess I'll have to do some sort of factory reset now to get it back.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 25/04/2009 10:40
Two standard IP addresses from the factory for SpeedTouch:
10.0.0.138 and 192.168.1.254
Your computer will need proper port/routing setup to use either of those.
-ml
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 25/04/2009 11:30
Two standard IP addresses from the factory for SpeedTouch:
10.0.0.138 and 192.168.1.254
Your computer will need proper port/routing setup to use either of those.
My computer was setup correctly to use the 192.168.1.x range and was talking to the router happily right up to the point of rebooting it. I had to factory reset it, several times, until I managed to pin down what was breaking it.
It turns out that firewall rules on the ST must not have spaces in their names. Unfortunately the web UI allows you to add spaces and the underlying code in the backend allows the UI to save the rules with spaces. The CLI shows the rules setup, with their spaces.
As soon as you reboot however, one of two things can happen. Either the router comes back up with your firewall settings (and a whole bunch of others settings) discarded, which isn't too bad. Or even worse it comes back up, but with the firewall in some sort of broken state. When it comes back up broken you can't access the web UI or the CLI. So you have to do a factory reset and start again.
Interestingly when you do a factory reset it comes back up with no wifi security and the firewall turned off. Unfortunately it also remembers your ADSL login details, so faithfully connects you to the Internet with zero security in place. Nice.
I finally worked out what was going wrong with the firewall settings, when I discovered that the CLI correctly disallows you from putting a space in the firewall rule names. Once I worked that out I could at least set the firewall up without destroying my config every time I rebooted.
There were however other nasties in store.
I discovered that the web UI lets you set invalid endpoints in DHCP ranges (I set my DHCP range ending with the broadcast address, doh). That wouldn't be so bad if it just broke DHCP. However when you reboot, like the firewall error, it has collateral damage. When you have an invalid DHCP range it then forget that it knows anything about the subnet that the DHCP range was part of. It also then forgets all the firewall rules connected with it. Basically it throws away all your network config.
Again the CLI knows more than the web UI, if you enter the wrong DHCP range it tells you and disallows it.
Just when I thought I had everything setup I made the mistake of trusting the web UI again. I selected a couple of wifi devices via the web UI and selected "always use this IP for this device". The router instantly disconnected both devices and would then not let them reconnect via wifi.
After a lot of digging through the CLI I discovered that when the web UI set the DHCP leases for the two devices to infinite it also added them to the wifi MAC access control list with the setting set to "deny" !
So after a day and a half of very painful messing about I finally have it up and working. I'd love to make use of the QoS features and other advanced stuff, but at this point I am fearful of touching it.
I didn't think my requirements for a router were that demanding:
- no NAT
- reserved addresses in the single DHCP scope
- a dozen straight forward firewall holes
No other router has ever made it this difficult to get those simple things setup.
I have not mentioned some of the other issues I had along the way, including random rebooting after config changes.
The Thompson Speedtouch TG585n may well be a good ADSL modem, router and access point. I do know for sure though that its web UI is just not up to the task.
If you find yourself working on one of these routers, ignore the web UI for anything but the most basic details.
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 25/04/2009 20:15
Why have you not returned it?
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 25/04/2009 20:45
These modems are the best for line performance, that's fact. I, like Mark, just hand off all the other router type stuff to my clarkconnect box, I never use the router UI becasue it is a little consumer orientated.
It's worth sticking with it, if you don't see the line improvement straight away it may take a little time for your SP to catch up. As for the UI there is a knack to setting the IP range etc... I can't find the link I used last time
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: tman
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 25/04/2009 20:51
I've found the firmware for Speedtouch modems to be a little strange in operation. Once you've got it working how you want then it is usually fairly stable but getting it initially configured is the hard part.
The CLI is the only way to configure the Speedtouch if you're trying to do something that isn't covered by the basic GUI.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 03:58
These modems are the best for line performance, that's fact.
So why doesn't my SpeedTouch 580 work at the ADSL2+ speeds I've got enabled on my line?
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 04:40
So why doesn't my SpeedTouch 580 work at the ADSL2+ speeds I've got enabled on my line?
I don't know Roger. I have an ADSL2+ line too, and I think you have to be pretty close to the exchange to see any massive increase in speed with 2+.
Line performance isn't all about speed either, stability is a large part of good performance on DSL lines. I once sat with a BT Wholesale guy who used my line at home as an example for a couple of technical points we were discussing, by changing a few settings we were able to get my line to sync at the full 8Mbps. Unfortunately it would hold sync for about 5 minutes and then drop for 5 minutes. He then showed me it took the auto systems about 30 minutes to figure out my line can handle about 6Mbps at 100% uptime, I was quite impressed to be honest. So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 05:56
Why have you not returned it?
A very good question...
Because I bought it online, so I wouldn't be able to start the returns process until Monday and because I've now invested a day and a half of my life getting it working how I want it. I normally don't have to change anything on the router for several years at a time, so now I know how to work around its quirks I
should be ok.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 06:00
It's worth sticking with it, if you don't see the line improvement straight away it may take a little time for your SP to catch up.
It will take much longer than that...
My Netgear router managed to max out the line most of the time anyway. Every now and again it would drop down to 6.5m for a few weeks, but mostly it stayed pegged at the max. So it will take a year or so until I know whether the Thomson is doing any better (and even then I won't really know as the line may have changed in the meantime).
As for the UI there is a knack to setting the IP range etc... I can't find the link I used last time
Yeah, the knack is not giving it an invalid range.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 06:02
One of the bug fixes in one of the Speedtouch firmwares I was looking at was "allow modem to automatically detect ADSL2+ and enable it". So maybe Roger's router doesn't know it should be using ADSL2+ ?
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 09:44
So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???
Are there any diagnostics I can see that'll show this "negotiation" of line speed?
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 09:48
So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???
It doesn't seem to handle ADSL 1 speeds; I get ~6.5Mbps out of 8Mbps. This after BT's 21CN upgrade. Are there any diagnostics I can see that'll show this "negotiation" of line speed?
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 26/04/2009 11:42
Look at the line up/down attenuation and noise margin figures. There are a number of references online that will translate those raw measures into typically attainable line speeds. Assuming, of course, that your ISP has set a compatible line profile to permit them.
Cheers
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 04:45
It doesn't seem to handle ADSL 1 speeds; I get ~6.5Mbps out of 8Mbps. This after BT's 21CN upgrade.
If you are getting 6.5Mbps on ADSL then I would expect to see some kind of improvement on ADSL 2+ but you won't get the full 24Mbps of course, maybe 8-10Mbps. I think Andy made a good suggestion of checking the firmware and options to make sure the modem knows to use it. Also how do you know you are on an ADSL2+ DSLAM ???
For the best results get yourself on of those new fangled front plate filters BT are selling for £10, they cut the ringing circuit out which should give you a boost in speed if you have lots of extensions around your house.
21CN hasn't been rolled out yet, and won't really increase speeds in itself. 21CN is a major change in the back-haul service and most of us won't really notice the difference day to day. To cut it down to it's very basics they are changing to a fully IP based back haul for both voice and data between the exchanges, as this means a change of equipment us as end users can expect to see some new features but not massive increases beyond what is already possible with the range of DSL services on the market. I should also add if your SP has swapped you onto their own network for voice and data then 21CN won't effect you at all, as it's a BT Wholesale product and will only effect customers who's SP use BTW.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 05:28
I think by "after BT's 21CN upgrade" Roger probably meant that his exchange had been switched to 21CN. He lives fairly centrally in London, so it seems likely.
While 21CN doesn't automatically mean higher speeds, when it is announced that your exchange had been upgraded to 21CN then that also means ADSL2+ DSLAMs for your exchange. Or at least that is my understanding after following what Adrian for AAISP has been saying for the last year or so and he normally knows more about what BT are doing with ADSL than they do...
I've still got another year to wait for my exchange to switch.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 06:23
Yea, like I said it doesn't really delivery anything really exciting in itself, the best you get is a new DSLAM but there is nothing new there as lots of the other operators already have them sat there waiting to go.
Before I left Openreach I was privy to some of the internal discussions within the group about the impact of 21CN. I think there is something to get excited about if you are an SP but as an end user it really isn't that exciting, at best it promises ADSL 2+ (there were discussions about VDSL which would be something different!) and less congestion in the back haul section.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 06:27
I think by "after BT's 21CN upgrade" Roger probably meant that his exchange had been switched to 21CN. He lives fairly centrally in London, so it seems likely.
Yep. I had confirmation from AAISP that my exchange has been switched to 21CN.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 06:32
Also how do you know you are on an ADSL2+ DSLAM ???
As far as I can tell, confirmed by AAISP, and enabled on their web management console.
For the best results get yourself on of those new fangled front plate filters BT are selling for £10, they cut the ringing circuit out which should give you a boost in speed if you have lots of extensions around your house.
We don't. Well, we've got various phone wires running around the house, but I don't know where some of them go. As far as what's actually in use, we have a socket by the front door with the ADSL modem and a DECT base unit (two handsets) plugged into it (obviously with a microfilter). Still worth getting one?
I'd rip out the rest of the cabling if I could work out what it's for. Alternatively, I'd move the modem to the attic (for improved WiFi coverage of the house, and so that Charlie can't play with it). The wiring appears to be the same gauge as the alarm system, unfortunately, so I'd have to trace it properly.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 06:46
Look at the line up/down attenuation and noise margin figures.
For reference, while I go digging for those online references:
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 12.5 / 19.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down = 16.5 / 34.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 7.0 / 7.0
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 07:36
If you have a BT Master NTE5 then you should be able to undo the 2 screws on the front and plug your router direct into the test socket, if you see an increase in speed then it will be worth getting the new face plate filter. Even wiring that is not being used can have a massive impact on broadband performance, esp if it's run in alarm cable!
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 07:45
There are 2 thing out there at the moment, the
BT I-Plate and the old faithful
NTE 2000, both will help any ADSL line which has extension wiring beyond the NTE, if there is no extension wiring beyond the NTE then a good quality filter is just as good. It is also worth noting that the NTE 2000 was always an engineered fitted product and was never for general sale, it's my personal preference but does limit the use of the router at the NTE location.
You can also boost the speed without spending any money at all and disconnect the ringing circuit, labelled as 3 on the face plate, most plugin filters don't need that to be connected to ring anyway. If you have an I-Plate or NTE-2000 then there is no advantage in most cases of doing this.
Edit - In over 50% of cases I would say that broadband faults are within the home, and this is after the SP has done all the testing etc...
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 07:57
Yea, like I said it doesn't really delivery anything really exciting in itself, the best you get is a new DSLAM but there is nothing new there as lots of the other operators already have them sat there waiting to go.
Before I left Openreach I was privy to some of the internal discussions within the group about the impact of 21CN. I think there is something to get excited about if you are an SP but as an end user it really isn't that exciting, at best it promises ADSL 2+ (there were discussions about VDSL which would be something different!) and less congestion in the back haul section.
If you are stuck on an non-unbundled exchange then getting 21CN and a new BT DSLAM is potentially exciting, as it gives the possibility of 8MB+ which those of us stuck on such exchanges haven't had access to before.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 08:01
Edit - In over 50% of cases I would say that broadband faults are within the home, and this is after the SP has done all the testing etc...
I can believe that. I was absolutely convinced that my Dad's ADSL problem couldn't be his wiring, as he got a sync but no PPP link. When I got there and moved his router to the master socket however it became clear that it was indeed caused by a dodgy extension with a failed microfilter.
I felt slightly embarrased after hassling plusnet repeatedly telling them it couldn't be a wiring problem
Posted by: frog51
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 10:23
If you are stuck on an non-unbundled exchange then getting 21CN and a new BT DSLAM is potentially exciting, as it gives the possibility of 8MB+ which those of us stuck on such exchanges haven't had access to before.
Hmmm - this is what BT told me so I'm paying for an 8Mb line. I have the whizzy BT plate gubbins and the best connection I have ever had was 1Mb and typically I get 380k. And no amount of conversation, troubleshooting or anything has either improved my line speed or reduced my costs.
Unfortunately I have no alternative options where I live.
Oh yeah - the point of this was to say that I'm jealous of you all
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 10:39
That is the problem with DSL, if you are stuck on a long line no amount to tweaking or profile changing will ever get you the max the product can deliver on a shorter line.
When I used to visit customer's premises it really pissed me off that I couldn't get 8Mbps so I now have 2 DSL lines linked together using the Multi-WAN function of clarkconnect and I get just over 1Mb a second transfer speeds, or somewhere around 10Mbps I think. I must admit that was a much better solution when I didn't have to pay for the 2nd broadband line
Having said that, there are some real good deals out there on broadband at the moment. I am using o2 and Sky at the moment and am paying about £7 less per month for them both than I was paying for one line with Zen. I have to admit they are both very good, I even get a fixed IP with o2 (£5 extra per month). And now I have my IP ranges sorted out myself I find the Multi-WAN really works well.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 15:52
For reference, while I go digging for those online references:
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 12.5 / 19.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down = 16.5 / 34.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 7.0 / 7.0
7dB is a
marginal noise margin. That number should be a lot larger given the low attenuation figures. Here's what our ISP's parent says about this stuff:
SN Margin (AKA Signal to Noise Margin or Signal to Noise Ratio) Relative strength of the DSL signal to Noise ratio: 6dB is the lowest dB manufactures specify for modem to be able to synch. In some instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an acceptable level. The higher the number the better for this measurement.
6dB or below is bad and will experience no synch or intermittent synch problems
7dB-10dB is fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions
11dB-20dB is good with no synch problems
20dB-28dB is excellent
29dB or above is outstanding
Line Attenuation
Measure of how much the signal has degraded between the DSLAM and the modem: maximum signal loss recommendation is usually about 60dB. The lower the dB the better for this measurement.
20dB and below is outstanding
20dB-30dB is excellent
30dB-40dB is very good
40dB-50dB is good
50dB-60dB is poor and may experience connectivity issues
60dB or above is bad and will experience connectivity issues
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 16:01
7dB is a marginal noise margin. That number should be a lot larger given the low attenuation figures.
In other words, that line looks *really* noisy to me. So your next step might be to disconnect all inside wiring, and have the modem directly on the telephone wire entry point (whatever it's called over there), and measure again.
That will tell you if the problem is inside (you fix it), or outside (telco fixes it).
Posted by: tman
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 16:40
You should be able to get the modem to tell you what the maximum attainable rate is for your line, what the current rate is and what mode it is operating in.
You had to use a service mode password for the old Speedtouch I had. I'm not sure what you'd do for your newer one.
I made a Python script to extract the data from my modem to put it into MRTG. I can see the noise margin going up during daylight hours and then down again when it starts to get dark.
Mode ADSL2
Down Up
Current Rate 644608Bps 120448Bps
Max Rate 662528Bps 120320Bps
Capacity 97% 100%
Noise Margin 8dB 6dB
Line Attenuation 48dB 28dB
Power 0dB 12dB
On ADSL1 I was at ~3Mbps but its gone up to ~5Mbps by switching to ADSL2.
Posted by: andym
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 17:42
I've been having a PM conversation with Cris about my ADSL connection. Since the Beeb had launched their HD content on iPlayer is was a little miffed that I couldn't watch it.
Originally my modem was connected in the study on the end of the extension. It's connection stats looked like this:
Uptime: 0 days, 4:01:05
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 640 / 1,792
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 2.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 29.0 / 47.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.0 / 11.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / GSPN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 459 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 1,220,440
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 22,860
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 19,335
Following Cris' advice I moved the modem downstairs, put it on a 3 meter extension and disconnected the circuit upstairs. Now the stats look like this:
Uptime: 1 day, 1:21:04
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 640 / 4.640
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0,00 / 0,00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,5 / 19,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 27,0 / 46,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 14,0 / 11,5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / GSPN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 95 / 21.192
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 95 / 33
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 45 / 28
As you can see from the figures, not much is changing, other than a 'huge' jump in line speed (IMHO). You should definitely check your extension wiring Roger.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 18:12
My line is rarely above 6dB SNR:
(the flat line it because it took me a while to remember I needed to knock up a new expect/sed/grep script for my new router)
Despite that I manage a 8mb sync most of the time and don't get any noticeable line drops.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 19:24
In other words, that line looks *really* noisy to me. So your next step might be to disconnect all inside wiring, and have the modem directly on the telephone wire entry point (whatever it's called over there), and measure again.
Here in the UK, on BT Wholesale DSLAM's on the upto 8Mbps product a low SnR figure is actually a good thing, I must admit I don't fully understand the reasons for this but the theory is that if a line is good quality, ie stable then the noise margin can be set low to allow more room on the frequencies for data and less room for errors. It's the exact opposite to what you'd think but it does seem to work pretty well.
On the old upto 2Mbps BT product it was the other way around, and was much easier to fault if you did have a line fault to chase. Them were the days
As AndyM's results show it's well worth looking at your wiring if you have stability problems. The wiring beyond the master socket causes an imbalance in the circuit which can cause all sorts of issues. So cutting it out or isolating it with one of the filters I linked to can only be a good thing.
Now, if I hook my Speedtouch up direct to the cable coming out of the ground at the front of my house with a couple of croc clips etc... I can get 7Mbps sync, but I don't think that set up would last too long around here
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 19:28
As you can see from the figures, not much is changing, other than a 'huge' jump in line speed (IMHO).
I would leave that set up alone now Andy, I bet in a few days you will see the SnR figure changing and your downstream increase a little more.
Also interesting to see your SP is using the premium broadband offering with the slightly higher upstream, usually only business lines get that, and then at a premium.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 20:35
Here in the UK, on BT Wholesale DSLAM's on the upto 8Mbps product a low SnR figure is actually a good thing
Absolutely, to a point that is. It's a sign of a properly optimized connection, so long as the SNR target isn't so low that the line suffers from frequent loss of sync.
But with the 7dB SNR above, the indication is that the line is already close to
maxed out for speed. Which is rather curious, given the not-very-high attenuation figures. So there must be some extraneous noise on the line somewhere causing this.
Or so I think.
Cheers
Posted by: tman
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 27/04/2009 20:45
But with the 7dB SNR above, the indication is that the line is already close to maxed out for speed. Which is rather curious, given the not-very-high attenuation figures. So there must be some extraneous noise on the line somewhere causing this.
You need to get your modem to report what channels are actually available. It may be that there aren't many channels which are usable but the ones that are okay do have a good SNR.
Somebody I know has a lower attenuation and a higher noise margin than me but overall they get a lower speed because of this.
Mine:
0.00 0.00 8.15 8.67 8.81 8.17 8.05 7.91 % 32~ 39
7.66 7.41 7.31 7.31 7.66 6.92 7.79 7.91 % 40~ 47
7.91 7.80 7.56 8.17 8.17 7.31 7.80 8.41 % 48~ 55
7.80 7.91 7.31 7.56 7.91 7.91 8.17 8.67 % 56~ 63
8.17 8.41 7.91 7.91 8.17 8.17 7.91 8.31 % 64~ 71
7.66 7.91 7.66 7.91 7.80 8.67 7.91 8.31 % 72~ 79
8.31 8.31 7.56 0.00 8.31 8.05 7.80 7.80 % 80~ 87
7.80 7.80 8.05 8.05 8.05 8.41 7.91 7.66 % 88~ 95
7.91 7.80 8.17 7.66 7.91 7.91 7.91 8.41 % 96~103
7.31 8.17 8.17 8.17 7.80 8.31 8.05 7.66 % 104~111
7.66 8.31 7.91 7.55 8.05 7.79 8.05 7.66 % 112~119
7.91 7.55 7.91 7.91 8.05 7.55 7.41 7.31 % 120~127
7.05 7.65 7.55 7.55 7.91 0.00 8.05 7.79 % 128~135
8.05 8.05 9.30 8.41 9.80 8.31 7.41 7.91 % 136~143
8.91 7.91 0.00 0.00 7.79 8.31 9.16 8.67 % 144~151
0.00 8.31 9.16 7.79 6.91 6.65 7.91 8.05 % 152~159
8.40 0.00 7.55 8.31 8.54 0.00 8.17 0.00 % 160~167
0.00 6.65 8.31 8.91 7.55 0.00 6.40 0.00 % 168~175
7.31 0.00 6.03 7.05 7.31 6.40 6.14 8.31 % 176~183
0.00 8.17 5.15 9.92 0.00 10.07 9.66 8.54 % 184~191
0.00 8.41 0.00 7.91 7.66 8.05 8.17 0.00 % 192~199
0.00 0.00 0.00 5.39 0.00 0.00 4.54 0.00 % 200~207
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 208~215
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 216~223
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 224~231
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 7.88 % 232~239
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 240~247
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 248~255
Theirs:
0.00 0.00 0.00 12.26 12.42 12.03 12.69 11.92 % 32~ 39
12.04 12.04 12.17 12.17 12.28 12.04 11.78 12.04 % 40~ 47
12.04 12.04 11.16 12.28 11.92 12.04 12.04 11.92 % 48~ 55
12.04 11.16 11.78 11.78 12.04 12.04 11.67 11.43 % 56~ 63
8.42 11.43 11.78 12.04 11.67 12.04 12.04 0.00 % 64~ 71
12.04 11.78 12.17 11.78 12.04 12.04 11.29 11.78 % 72~ 79
12.04 12.04 11.92 12.17 12.28 11.53 12.69 11.92 % 80~ 87
11.53 12.42 12.17 11.92 11.67 12.17 11.67 11.92 % 88~ 95
11.92 11.92 11.67 11.67 11.92 12.42 11.29 12.42 % 96~103
12.04 11.67 11.92 10.93 12.04 11.78 11.78 12.04 % 104~111
12.04 12.04 11.16 11.43 11.53 11.67 12.28 12.04 % 112~119
10.93 12.04 12.04 11.78 11.67 11.67 12.04 11.78 % 120~127
12.42 0.00 12.03 12.17 12.04 0.00 12.04 11.29 % 128~135
11.78 11.78 11.78 11.78 12.55 12.28 11.29 11.78 % 136~143
0.00 12.42 0.00 0.00 0.00 12.69 0.00 12.17 % 144~151
0.00 11.53 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 11.29 11.43 % 152~159
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 160~167
12.28 0.00 12.03 0.00 12.17 0.00 11.53 0.00 % 168~175
11.78 0.00 0.00 12.03 12.28 10.93 12.03 0.00 % 176~183
0.00 12.28 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 10.93 % 184~191
0.00 11.16 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 192~199
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 200~207
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 208~215
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 216~223
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 224~231
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 232~239
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 240~247
0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 % 248~255
The 32-143 range and 208-255 range is roughly the same for the both of us. Where it differs significantly is the 144-207 range above. I've got a lower signal quality but more channels are available.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 28/04/2009 03:37
So there must be some extraneous noise on the line somewhere causing this.
Well, when I get a chance, I'll try to rule out internal noise by disconnecting everything else inside the house.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 28/04/2009 20:12
My line is rarely above 6dB SNR:
I note with interest however that my Thomson (data after the flat line) isn't showing the regular night time drops to 3dB that my Netgear did. I'm wondering of this is due to it measuring things differently or whether it is doing something to improve the SNR ?
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 28/04/2009 20:19
That's why we like SpeedTouch units -- they cope better with tight SNR conditions. Dunno what they do differently, but they do it very well.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 29/04/2009 06:14
Like Mark says they just seem better. What is extra special about them is that they have this effect whatever the DSLAM manufacturer is, for a long time we observed that a manufacturers own chipset out performed any other when paired with a matching DSLAM chipset, but the SpeedTouch's seem to work with everything pretty good.
The SnR figure is generated during the negotiations between the modem and router, you see wildly different figures of both line loss and SnR just by swapping modems, so it seems to be heavily dependant on the combination used. What I can tell you for fact is that the speedtouch figures almost always matched the line loss figures generated by my independent tester which could measure loss over a range of frequencies independent of the DSLAM. This is one reason why I have such faith in these modems. I still think the 546 is the best of the bunch
The really strange thing is that lots of Cisco routers also have the same chipset (old Alcatel?) as the Speedtouch, but they perform terribly on even marginal lines. So I think there is a lot done in the firmware version they are running.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 29/04/2009 06:43
The really strange thing is that lots of Cisco routers also have the same chipset (old Alcatel?) as the Speedtouch, but they perform terribly on even marginal lines. So I think there is a lot done in the firmware version they are running.
Most of the current Speedtouch devices appear to use Broadcom chipsets. I note that my DSLAM is an Alcatel one.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 29/04/2009 10:10
I still think the 546 is the best of the bunch
While I'm still rather fond of our 546 from years ago, it is now resting in its orginal shipping box, waiting for me to put it up for resale.
The brand new 516v6 we installed a month ago just blows it away, with a very consistent +5dB SNR over the old unit. Unbelievable.
Cheers
Posted by: Cris
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 29/04/2009 12:30
The brand new 516v6 we installed a month ago just blows it away, with a very consistent +5dB SNR over the old unit. Unbelievable.
Hmm good tip, I'll pick one of those up
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 29/04/2009 16:41
Note that I've got firmware 7.4.3.2 installed on the 516v6. Before the firmware update, it behaved much the same as the old 546.
The 516v6 units can be picked up here for as little as CDN$50 or so. Dunno about over there, but prices here vary widely from shop to shop.
Cheers
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 01:00
Dragging up an old thread again... Remember my Netgear DGN2000? The box I loved because it consolidated a decent 802.11b/g/n base station, four port router, firewall, and DSL modem in a single box?
The first one lasted roughly six months, then the hard ports died. They RMA'ed it and sent me a brand new one. Now, again roughly six months later, the same damn problem has happened again. Two of the hard ports are dead, but the wireless is still working.
My experience with Netgear tech support wasn't nearly as good as it was six months ago. Since I'm now out of my original one year warranty, they're vaguely unwilling to help me. (I suggested that they replace my DGN2000 with the newer DGND3300 in the hopes that it doesn't share the thermal engineering defects of the DGN2000.) The tech said I had to speak with "customer support" so I called that next and got voicemail for the RMA department ("the voicemail box is full").
I'll try again tomorrow, but I'm dubious about whether Netgear is going to own up to their shoddy design and offer an out-of-warranty replacement.
As such, it's time to hit up the gallery for advice. I'd very much like to continue with an all-in-one-box solution. I could spend another $140 on the Netgear DGND3300 (basically adding simultaneous dual-band), which also apparently runs Linux and is quite tweakable on the inside (Bruce Perens has a nice
review on Amazon). Still, I've got more than a bit of hesitation to buy yet another Netgear product.
Any suggestions on alternatives, perhaps not from the big-name vendors? I'd happily spend more on a box that was better engineered.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 06:11
Dragging up an old thread again...
Heh. I was about to drag this thread up again, myself. I've given up on my Thomson -- my PS3 could never connect to the PlayStation Network. It could connect to the Internet just fine, just not to PSN. The Thomson kept dropping the WAN connection as well.
So, I've gone back to the Zyxel P-660HW-T1 that was giving me setup grief previously. Turns out that my problems with setting up port forwarding were because the port forward (bizarrely) doesn't automatically open a hole in the firewall. The PS3/PSN connection seems rock-solid now, though.
Where I'm having problems is that I can't get the WiFi working properly -- it doesn't want to play nice when it's not also doing DHCP server service, so I'm considering using a separate access point, although I'm going to poke around with the configuration a bit more.
But, back to Dan's point: I was looking around for a potential replacement and saw negative stories about Netgear's customer support, and Linksys reliability, etc. I figure that it's a self-selection thing: happy people don't bother writing reviews, but I wasn't willing to drop £80 on a new router and then discover that it didn't work (for my defined value of "work").
In short: sorry, I have no idea. If I had a couple of grand, I'd get something from Cisco. I'd even consider separate DSL modem, router and access point.
Posted by: andy
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 06:21
I feel your pain, as I've moaned about elsewhere on here I've had an awful experience with sub £200 routers recently. I'm still not very happy with the Draytek I ended up with.
I'd go with a separate WAP/modem/router (with the router being something Linux/BSD based), but even that is problematic. I tried a few affordable WAPs out and they all failed to cope in some way with dealing with my set of wifi clients:
2 x iPhone 3G
1 x Mac mini
2 x PC laptop
1 x Squeezebox Receiver
2 x Squeezebox Boom
1 x Squeezebox Controller
Some of them just failed to deal with that mixture of clients completely (randomly dropping them off the network), some failed to pass DHCP messages, some would lock up randomly. The Draytek is at least coping with the wifi side of things, now that I've handed the DHCP duties to the Linux server (the Draytek couldn't cope with being a DHCP server for some reason).
Posted by: wfaulk
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 11:53
I've been totally happy with my Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 running Tomato. The only problem with it is that it doesn't support 802.11n, and nor do any Tomato-supported routers. I'm thinking about picking up a separate 802.11n access point.
Posted by: matthew_k
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 15:14
I'm thinking about picking up a separate 802.11n access point.
That's what I did, it works well except the cheap TrendNet crashes after a few GB of time machine backups, even though it's not routing anything. It's probably overheating and needs to be moved somewhere with better circulation, but it doesn't seem like that should be the issue.
Posted by: hybrid8
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 19/10/2009 22:38
My dual-band Time Capsule (Airport Extreme) is handling my wireless clients without an issue.
1 MacBook Pro n 5GHz
1 PowerBook g
1 Mac mini g
1 iPod Touch g
1 Wii g
2 Squeezebox 3 (Classic) g
Before my wife took over using my PowerBook, it was also supporting her Windows POS Acer Notebook (802.11g).
I'm currently using my WRT54G with Tomato as a router in front of the Time Capsule and behind a cable modem. I'd be using the Time Capsule to route instead if it weren't for Tomato's excellent bandwidth monitor and to a lesser extent, its QoS (though I didn't have a problem with TC in this regard).
Posted by: gbeer
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 20/10/2009 00:34
I've been using the
DIR-655 for about 3 weeks now. It was a bit wonky until I turned off QOS, WISH, Advanced DNS, and SecureSpot. That was 10 days ago and it's been solid since.
Maybe some of those things have value but I wasn't able to see it.
Currently wired; colorHP, bw laser, Wind Nettop Ubuntu,S3 tivo, Directv HR23 DVR, 1 PC,
Wireless; 2 pc laptops, 1 MBP, iPod Touch, iPhone, and occasionally the odd Empeg.
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 20/10/2009 09:01
I'm currently using my WRT54G with Tomato as a router in front of the Time Capsule and behind a cable modem.
I've just ordered a WRT54GL, onto which I'll install Tomato. I'll then put my old, non-sucky Zyxel DSL modem into bridge mode and run everything that way.
At the moment, my home internet is down, and I've got a bruised foot from where I kicked the crap out of the Zyxel 660, so I'm hoping it turns up next-day.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 22/10/2009 02:37
It appears that the polite but sternly worded email I sent to
[email protected] actually did the trick. They're now sending me a DGND3300, gratis, and I'll be sending back the old DGN2000.
If it burns out in another six months, I'll deal with it then. Hopefully by then other vendors will have all-in-one boxes that compete with Netgear's offering.
Oh, and my grumbling on Twitter now has me followed by the "Netgear" user. I'm not sure whether I like this or not.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 22/10/2009 10:57
I always, *always*, mount these gadgets on the wall, vertically. For better airflow. Usually sideways, on the wall.
Perhaps that's why they never die here at the rates they seem to for other people?
Cheers
Posted by: Roger
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 22/10/2009 11:16
I'll then put my old, non-sucky Zyxel DSL modem into bridge mode and run everything that way.
Turns out that it
doesn't actually do bridged mode. It might not even do half-bridge mode. Either way, the
WRT54GL is working fine as a
WAP54GL with the stock firmware, so I'll leave it like that for the time-being. Draytek do an
ADSL Ethernet Modem (a PPPoA/PPPoE bridge). I might grab one next month.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 22/10/2009 15:53
I always, *always*, mount these gadgets on the wall, vertically. For better airflow. Usually sideways, on the wall.
Perhaps that's why they never die here at the rates they seem to for other people?
Good idea, can't hurt. I'll try that when the next box arrives. I had the previous boxes on a shelf in a closet, by themselves with lots of air around them, ambient temperature probably 78-80F. In theory, that should do the job. My temptation with the new box is to open the case and drill lots of holes, but with all these "metamaterial" antennas (antennae?) inside the case these days, that's probably a bad idea.
If and when the new box fails, I'll pursue one of these Draytek modems and I'll move up one notch in the hardware quality / price point game and look at boxes like the Netgear ProSafe SRXN3205 (no DSL modem, but a lifetime warranty, costs $200 after rebate) or the Cisco WRVS4400N ($189, but only a 3 year warranty). One would hope these boxes are engineered slightly better than the cost-reduced cheapo routers.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 22/10/2009 21:42
For passive cooling, one should aim for a chimney effect, which generally means orienting the device vertically, with air holes top and bottom (only!).
As the hot air rises, it draws in more cooler air at the bottom, and accelerates the cooling effect. Too many holes in the wrong places defeats the chimney.
Cheers
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Thompsom firmware ? - 23/10/2009 13:20
Hmm... good point. Interestingly, the newer DGND3300 comes with feet that let you orient it vertically, while the older DGN2000 lacked those feet. Maybe they realized that cooling was important.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2009 19:10
Speaking of DSL poblems..
Our line went down last night, and still hasn't come back up.
Not a modem problem, though, but rather something physically wrong somewhere in the outside cables.
So, as of an hour ago, I've set up my pair of el-cheapo wireless routers in WDS mode, to relay ethernet across the street to a neighbour's DSL modem.
My server then establishes its own independent PPPoE connection, static IP and all, through the same modem the neighbour is using
(with his own, different, login credentials).
Luckily, the Thompson modem supports multiple simultaneous PPPoE connections.
I think it's kinda cool, actually.
Cheers
Posted by: tman
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2009 19:21
My DSL went down awhile ago and they needed to do a "lift and shift" at the exchange. The DSLAM port/card I was connected to originally was faulty so they moved me to another port and its been fine ever since.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2009 20:47
Ahh that takes me back, a classic BT diagnostic solution, can't figure out what is wrong? Just make the old port faulty and give 'em a new one.
Glad I left all that crap behind? No!
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: tman
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2009 20:56
Ahh that takes me back, a classic BT diagnostic solution, can't figure out what is wrong? Just make the old port faulty and give 'em a new one.
The ADSL connection mysteriously died at exactly 9am. They did the diagnostics and scheduled a lift & shift which took forever for them to actually action. On the day of the lift & shift the ADSL connection mysteriously started working again at 9am and they closed the trouble ticket with the code that says it was a customer fault and nothing to do with BT.
I got the feeling that somebody did something at the exchange which broke it and they fixed it again when they turned up do to the lift & shift.
The marking everything as a customer fault is apparently quite normal for BT even if they did actually repair something their end.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 24/10/2009 19:30
Speaking of DSL poblems..
Our line went down last night, and still hasn't come back up.
With no prospect of even being able to report the line issue until business hours on Monday, and then another 2-3 days to dispatch a tech.. I got out the ladder today.
Pruned away a neighbour's evergreen from hanging on the telephone line, and then had a closer look at what was revealed underneath at the pole.
The main bundle, consisting of perhaps 30 pairs, was without the external rubber sheathing for the last 50cm or so before it entered the protective splice enclosure
(or whatever one calls that plastic cylinder thing).
It still had the inner metal sheath on it, though, nicely oriented with the open channel facing the sky. A really great water funnel, that!
Given that we have, in the past, observed a direct corelation between rain intensity and line quality, I figured that this wasn't a good situation for the bundle. Yes, it has been raining here for the past couple of days, including today.
So I twisted the metal sheath around such that the open channel mostly faced down, for drainage, and then added a similar open covering of really wide electrical tape, fastened firmly in a couple of spots.
There was also a hole visible in the metal conduit that led from the splice enclosure to the local (pole) distribution box, so I taped that up as well.
Back in the house again, reset the modem, again, and..
Full connectivity, full speed, full noise margin.
Maybe I can find work as a telephone techie if/when this Linux gig ever runs out.
Posted by: Cris
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 24/10/2009 20:50
The marking everything as a customer fault is apparently quite normal for BT even if they did actually repair something their end.
It's just what they close the job down as if they didn't have a clue what they did or didn't do to clear the fault. The clear codes for jobs are limited and specific so customer apps gets used a lot as it can be just about anything.
I would suspect other people on the same card as you reported similar problems and yours came back on when they changed the card out or something. Common faults like that often don't get linked.
There is also a lot of BS that comes from the SP side, even if that is BT themselves they only interface with the same part of BT everyone else done.
Cheers
Cris.
Posted by: canuckInOR
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 25/10/2009 04:39
Maybe I can find work as a telephone techie if/when this Linux gig ever runs out.
Heh. Nice detective work!
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 26/10/2009 02:46
Meanwhile, back to the ADSL routers... anybody ever heard of these guys?
http://www.billion.com/product/3g/bipac7402nx-wireless-11n-3G-ADSL2-vpn-firewall-router.htmlGigabit, 802.11n, ADSL modem, all in one box. $220, but I can only find one vendor who sells it. Based on
one review, it's not as fast at gigabit as other products. Still, it's intriguing to see another vendor playing in the space.
Posted by: Shonky
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 26/10/2009 12:57
Yes. I have an ADSL2+ modem that I use in bridge mode (i.e. my Linux firewall does the PPPoE etc).
I'm within about 1km from the exchange and get line syncs around 18000/900kbps which is about as good as can be expected out of the 24000/1024 (ish) that is theoretical.
Has worked flawlessly for the 3 years I've had it. Don't think I've ever touched it since I set it up bridged mode when I got it.
I think mine's a BiPAC 74<something> so doesn't look like they've moved much on model naming.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 17/09/2011 21:26
Dragging up an old thread yet again...
Two years have passed since I burned through two Netgear DGN2000's and got them to send me the better DGND3300. It's worked without complaint... until recently when WiFi has been randomly failing, while the wired links have worked without issue. Rebooting seemed to fix it, but we'll see if that sticks or whether it degenerates further. I also upgraded to the newest firmware. Regardless, I fear the hardware is reaching its end of life.
Two years of 24/7 usage before hardware failure is certainly better than six months, but hardly glorious. Part of me wants to take a crack at upgrading to the newer
DGND3700, which replaces the 10/100 switch with a GigE switch, although I don't do anything at home that would particularly benefit from GigE. Also, I fully expect it would fail again after the warranty was expired.
The obvious alternative would be to buy a separate DSL modem and a standard router/firewall/wireless box. I'd like to keep a single-box solution, since it's easier to configure.
Is there something I can get in a "professional" box that might have equivalent functionality to the Netgear, but be engineered to last (with the accompanying higher price and longer warranty)?
Posted by: Roger
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 18/09/2011 05:51
Is there something I can get in a "professional" box that might have equivalent functionality to the Netgear, but be engineered to last (with the accompanying higher price and longer warranty)?
Just off the top of my head, but my ISP (Andrews & Arnold) is recommending the Billion 7800N. I've not tried one, but the guys at A&A are usually pretty conscientious.
The reason I've not tried one is that I'll be upgrading to FTTC in the next couple of weeks, which comes with a VDSL modem included, so all I'll need is a PPPoE router, and I expect I can do that with Tomato or OpenWRT.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 18/09/2011 11:41
I looked at that Billion router. It's comparable to the Netgear, except the Neatgear has simultaneous dual-band WiFi while the Billion is only 2.4GHz. That's not a deal-breaker, but it's a distinction.
What's sad is that many vendors designed and built these things with previous-generation WiFi (e.g.,
this D-Link) but haven't updated them. Maybe this class of product just doesn't sell much.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 19/09/2011 15:42
Further digging. One box that has comparable specs to the Netgear is the
Fritzbox 7390. They don't have any U.S. resellers, so I'd have to import one from Europe. One cool feature is built-in support for DECT wireless telephone handsets, which I don't particularly need. It looks like I could get one for somewhere around $300, by the time you factor in exchange rate. (Assuming it would even work here.)
The other option seems to be the
Draytek Vigor 2710n or
Vigor 2830n. The latter has a GigE switch, but they don't seem to offer anything with that and simultaneous dual-band. Prices are $185 and $300, respectively, but at least I can buy them from U.S. resellers.
Draytek came up the last time this thread came around. Any of you continue to hold them in higher regard?
Posted by: Dignan
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 19/09/2011 20:34
One box that has comparable specs to the Netgear is the
Fritzbox 7390.
Even for routers, that thing just looks silly. It look's like a child's toy, right down to the packaging and company logo!
I know, it's silly to complain about something like that, but I can't help it...
Posted by: BartDG
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 20/09/2011 04:35
Draytek came up the last time this thread came around. Any of you continue to hold them in higher regard?
I do. I've used those routers before and I like them a lot. They offer options you'll rarely see in consumer routers, like eg. a (couple of) VPN server(s), and they are insanely configurable. It's true they cost a bit more (like double) of what a regular consumer router would cost you, but I think they are worth it. That's just my opinion of course.
Also, their tech support is really good. Every email question I've ever mailed them got answered within the hour. That also counts for something if you ever had the pleasure of dealing with Netgear support eg.
I agree the only they they are lacking right now is dual band, but I can live with that personally. I know it's only a matter of time until they will release such a router. Because that's another thing I've noticed about Draytek: they are never cutting edge with their release as eg. Asus is. It usually takes them a year or even longer to release someting with the latest technology in it (for example: they released their gigabit LAN port router only in 2009, that was years after most other brands did), but on the other hand their releases are always stable products which receive frequent firmware upgrades and good support.
Posted by: gbeer
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 20/09/2011 23:58
Even for routers, that thing just looks silly. It look's like a child's toy, right down to the packaging and company logo!
The fins are what put it over the top. Otherwise the shape isn't so bad.
Posted by: Phoenix42
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 21/09/2011 00:56
The fins make the packets more aerodynamic, but that only helps if you are in front of the router. If off to one side the packets end up going in an arc.
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2011 00:54
So I couldn't get over the fact that the Netgear was half the price of anything else, so today I decommissioned our DGND3300 and installed the newer DGND3700.
Under relatively ideal circumstances, sitting ten feet, and one wall, from the router and copying a large file from my MacBook Air to a desktop MacPro, I observed 52.5 megabits/sec on 2.4GHz and 107 megabits/sec on 5GHz. Moving downstairs, but near the stairs, I observed 28.5 megabits/sec on 2.4GHz and 13.9 megabits/sec on 5GHz. From a slightly different vantage point downstairs, away from the stairwell, the performance collapsed. 5GHz was unreachable and I got only 1.97 megabits/sec at 2.4GHz.
I don't have performance numbers from my earlier DGND3300, but it definitely did better than this. Still, I'm going to keep the new router. Hopefully it will have better heat management than the earlier ones, and I like having a GigE backbone. All I need is a second AP.
My home theater rack has a wire running upstairs to the closet and a vanilla Ethernet switch in it for all the gear. My current plan is to convert that switch into an AP+switch combo to fill in the signal-strength gap. That had me doing a bunch of research today on APs that also have a four-port switch in them. (I'm out of plugs on my power strip, so I really want to have a single-box solution.) Here's the list.
http://www.amazon.com/Amped-Wireless-Wireless-300N-Access-AP300/dp/B0058X0TFA/ http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Universal-Range-Extender-WN2000RPT/dp/B003VWZE7S/ http://www.amazon.com/AirLink-AP671W-300Mbps-802-11n-Wireless/dp/B003MB01HQ/ http://www.amazon.com/D-Link-Wi-Fi-Booster-Smart-DAP-1525/dp/B0053XG25G/The Amped box is notable for supporting Power-over-Ethernet (PoE). The NetGear and AirLink are basically just cheap. The D-Link, a successor to the earlier DAP-1522, is new and very impressive. It's got a 6-way antenna and can do beam steering. Unfortunately, it's way too tall to fit in my rack, unless I want to cut some holes. Which is tempting. But not today. (
Sadness: go read the Amazon reviews. See how difficult it is for people to understand the distinction between an AP and a "range extender"? This is why most vendors don't even bother to try to sell these things.)
Finally, I ended up buying one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-RT-N12-Wireless-N-Advance-Router/dp/B002SQ9ZX2/It's a full-blown router, but it has a switch on the back to turn it into an AP, which isn't supported by any other routers I've seen. Furthermore, Asus seems to explicitly market their routers as being supported by 3rd-party firmware, like DD-WRT. The installation process seems to be a world of annoyance, as you can only do it from a Windows box, but it is supported. For $40, it's hard to go too far wrong. (
Cleverness: by putting the AP/relay/router switch on the back, Asus gets to ship one box that can serve three different market needs. There may be some hope for us, yet.)
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2011 18:31
I don't have performance numbers from my earlier DGND3300, but it definitely did better than this.
At 2.4GHz / 5GHz, a mere shift or rotation of just 1cm is enough to change the wireless characteristics by a fair margin. So don't be too hasty on that point -- try subtle adjustments of the router's positioning and/or antennas first.
Cheers
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2011 18:33
The installation process seems to be a world of annoyance, as you can only do it from a Windows box
Installing DDWRT *never* requires a Windows box. Or did you mean something else? Note that most "advice" on stuff comes from Windows users, so it's easy to be misled.
And a standard feature of pretty much *any* router with Tomato, DDWRT, OpenWRT, etc.. is that it can act as a basic AP, router, or gateway device. That's nothing new -- I even have/had things with factory firmware with the same capabilities, including a little DLink gizmo here which has an external switch for it.
Cheers
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 23/10/2011 20:33
The online docs that I've read describe a process that they say requires Windows. Hopefully that's not actually true. I didn't exactly scrutinize them closely.
Meanwhile, I came back home this afternoon after a morning out, and the wireless was working but all the wired ports were dead. Rebooting fixed the problem, but this is a bad omen. If this happens again, I'll have to return it.
Posted by: mlord
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 24/10/2011 01:48
Reports I've read on the ASUS units is that they're prone to overheating. But with millions sold, a few reports might have more weight than warranted.
I always orient my networking gear for optimum airflow, which usually means vertical alignment on a wall somewhere.
My Netgear WNR3500L gizmo runs lukewarm to the touch -- room temperature, about 18C. It's also one of the few routers I've encountered that is
designed for vertical orientation.
Cheers
Posted by: DWallach
Re: Wireless ADSL router recommendations? - 27/10/2011 22:43
Status update:
The DGND3700 was a consistent failure with the hard ports going belly-up when we got home from work every day. Reboot fixed, but that ain't right. I boxed it back up and returned it, and went back to the DGND3300.
I was poking around the configuration of the DGND3300 and observed that when you've got it in simultaneous dual-band mode, then you get 802.11n at 5GHz and 802.11g at 2.4GHz. Since 5GHz is basically unusable anywhere in the house where we normally hang out, I went to the 2.4GHz-only mode, which gets me 802.11n at the 2.4GHz band.
Also, today my Asus RT-N12 arrived and, after a firmware upgrade, is now serving as an AP downstairs in the home theater rack. The difference is stunning. This thing has a really, really strong signal. I'll have to chime back in later on when I have a sense of whether it runs cool or hot.
I'm going to stick with this for a while, at least until I sort out what, if anything, was failing with the old DGND3300. If/when that gives up the ghost, then I'll pony up for the DrayTek.